There are just too many really good plot ideas that have died prematurely to a poorly justified ganking, or to a first encounter PVP, or to any of the myriad situations that pop up in which people justify ending another players character.
Why do we need a DM to chop off a players hand, but we dont need one to FD someone? Why do we need a DM to keep someone for ransom, but no DM to just off them? It's no wonder so many PCs are ended. It's far easier to do.
Now, I submit that because all of these other situations cannot be made as simple as FDing someone, that instead we make FDing someone as hard as all these other situations.
In other words, remove the FD option completely from players grasp, and make it so that a DM is required to change you to FD mode if you want to kill someone outright. In this manner, there will at least be some small amount of oversight over the reasons WHY PCs are slain, and maybe there will even be a little more "cool" things happening to them, rather than an outright gank+FD.
Discuss.
Sometimes death is justified on a first PvP Run in.
Otherwise though it's an interesting idea to discuss.
What if your an assassin hired to kill someone, and no dm is available?
It's a good idea, but it has the same problem as making a DM required to be present for every showdown of PvP.
Simple solution Thomas. Hire more DMs.
The reason that DMs are needed for hands being cut off, ransoms being held, and other similar cases is because there's no mechanic in the NWN engine to "police"/enforce fairness and rule followering. In a sense, the DMs make up and decide upon the "rules" on the spot in these situations. You can't ask the faceless, unfeeling, number crunching server to make a decision and have everyone involved bound by it.
Despite all that, I'm very, very, very, very, very, very, very tempted to agree with this suggestion.
But I'm still hesistant to do so.
What if a defeated PC wants to be FDed? What if it would just be strangely awkward for a PC not to FD another defeated PC? There are some players who are more than mature and responsible enough in how they treat FD and their fellow players, I would hate to see them restricted.
Make it a challenge / response dialogue then, like adding a player to a quest.
"XXX has decided to FD you. Do you agree?"
That's a good point.
And also incredibly hilarious.
A mature player would use it properly. If they felt that they had their FD coming to them, they'd say "Yes". If they didnt, they'd let a DM sort it out.
I wasn't being sarcastic or anything!
I just thought it was funny in a macabre, twisted sort of way, having someone ask for permission to kill you xD
Pros :
1. Players who don't feel comfortable with the possiblity of an abrupt ending for their pcs might come to play here, or return to play here, but I doubt anyone will leave because full damage becomes more inconvenient to obtain.
2. Oversight by a (hopefully) neutral third person makes fairness in full damaging a lot more likely.
3. Players will be more willing to put effort into backgrounds, relationships and roleplay if they know they can not cheaply lose that pc for little reason.
Cons :
1. Metaknowledge of knowing when a Dm isn't on is going to make people more cocky and fearless. Actually, pvp in a non-dm time would probably become a total joke.
2. People who feel their death was unwarranted will now blame the Dm overseeing rather than the player.
I think this idea is interesting and might be worth trying for a short trial period to see how it worked.
Alternatively, premeditated intentions of full damage could require a short application.
Plus it would disallow for FDing griefers!
Being completely unable to FD somebody when there's no DM on would to me seem like a much bigger problem than the fact that people believe FDing is too common. You may as well not have enemies if you're in a non-DM friendly time and this would require for a DM for a lot of serious plot progression, which would in my eyes make playing when DMs aren't around even more difficult.
A good idea and if DMs were always available without fail, I would fully support it. But it just seems far too much trouble in my eyes.
I've had several FD permas that i wanted to dispute, but in end all my characters had it coming when I rationalized all the plotting and enemies made out.
Plots never die, they just get lowered to a simmer. Its up to a new PC to pick up the plot and move along with it. Every player is a star here, just got to be willing to run with the ball when it falls into your hands.
To justify removing FD would be to much work, either you want DMs to be around supervising the "Awesome" or you want them busy scripting, pick one.
Pretty sure removing it wouldn't be all that difficult.
The issue that arises though is the idea that not all PCs should be punished just because of a few people.
Everyone has a different philosophy on what constitutes PvP, worth of FD, and other things.
If I'm playing a person who is extremely vain, and a criminal, and CE, I'd likely murder someone in the face if all they did was insult me in front of my people.
Why?
Because sometimes you don't fuck with crazy people.
I agree that PvP would become a joke without FD in a time without DMs, because FD is a great equalizer that ends conflict one way or another. If you don't wanna get FD'd don't piss off the wrong people. Don't make yourself a target to muggers. Don't travel in groups less than three in PvP possible areas.
All of these things are easily ICly done as someone who is security minded or paranoid.
If you play EFU long enough you start to develop a sixth sense on the when to kill, when to fight, when to run, and when conflict will bubble up.
I'm a notoriously FD'd person on EFU haha, after a while you start feeling like an actor not a player. Your role got cut. You find a new one. You start over.
I'm going to have to disagree with one point. FDing a character at the very first sign of conflict with them really isn't something I think people should be doing except in very unusual circumstances. The problem is you can always justify why you'd kill someone ICly, rationalization is a beautiful thing. However I feel it's far more stylish to play with the idea in mind that you'll look for reasons not to FD people instead of searching for reasons to pull the trigger and kill them.
That said I'd rather not change the way it is now and require a DM for an FD because you need that threat there to keep the RP honest. But I would like to see a high standard of play and respect, a higher one than I've personally seen recently, frankly. It's far more fun for everyone if you keep the conflict going, and allow people licks back. Certainly there's always a chance that the other player won't return the favor, but it takes far more balls to take that risk than to just end their character out of fear of retaliation.
I think this would just lead to more drama and DM time taken than currently. Disable it completely and you could have duels to the death where the only way a PC could die is their player swearing off logging on them for a respawn.
Give a player a choice and they'll be taking responsibility for their own PC's ending, which means they can't blame the game, consequences, or another player fully, but themselves for choosing to perma. If it's only in the hands of the attacking player, then it's clear who's responsible and what led up to the FDing. The player of the victim can't wonder if they should have ended the PC or not.
Capricious has a good point there. My two penn'orth is that if you want fewer FDings, try running conflicts that don't start with high-cost muggings or major attacks. Stuff where your first though isn't "Well, they might retaliate by killing my PC".
The threat of death is a big part of this server that most don't take seriously enough as it is. I would rather see a PC struggle for his ideas to see life, than be given an easier road.
I think removing FD would make this server less challenging, personally, the fear of getting killed in pvp. knowing my pc could be ganked at any given point in time is a good thing. It makes you fight harder for the win.
Removing it and makign it DM oversight only just adds more work for DM's not to mention that i generally believe most players here arent just wantonly FD'ing people for "did not sell shield potion" or other lame excuses.
Another thing to consider is that some things cannot be made none-lethal, ie, traps, and that someone determined to kill can just lead monsters to a subdued victim - rules would have to be added for these as well.
Nine times out of ten when I am online there's no DM's around. Us guys in the -8 time zone would suffer terribly if this was ever implemented. I really assume it wont be. Do the Care Bear Count Down 5 4 3 2 1.
I won't play here if this suggestion happens.
Quote from: Drat;192543Nine times out of ten when I am online there's no DM's around. Us guys in the -8 time zone would suffer terribly if this was ever implemented. I really assume it wont be. Do the Care Bear Count Down 5 4 3 2 1.
I don't agree with the suggestion either, but at the same time it's a valid one based on concerns that some players have. There's no need to denigrate it by calling it "Care Bear." A little respect for your fellow players goes a long way.
Quote from: lovethesuit;192544I won't play here if this suggestion happens.
In every way possible I vote for this suggestion to happen.
Quote from: Equinox;192540I think removing FD would make this server less challenging, personally, the fear of getting killed in pvp. knowing my pc could be ganked at any given point in time is a good thing. It makes you fight harder for the win.
Removing it and makign it DM oversight only just adds more work for DM's not to mention that i generally believe most players here arent just wantonly FD'ing people for "did not sell shield potion" or other lame excuses.
You can still be ganked and killed at any moment, as long as the other player has DM supervision. It's not like his DM message is broadcast to every player.
The efu:a player base is a mature one in my opinion; i think everyone is welcome to make up their mind if they believe they should FD or simply subdue/Rob etc. I agree with Eq that the threat of death in PvP situations can be a real motivation as well as a challenge to fight for the win.
I am sure it has been said before that if you character has died in a way that you feel griefed by a player and so forth you can speak with a dm about it, who would surely be happy to listen and take the situation into account. There may be a situation where your character is FD'd and it is barely justifiable IG but it happens to all of us at a time; i consider it a challenge and removing such would just cause problems.
I think it comes with experience on the server that you adapt how you react in certain situations- for example you might beat some to within an inch of their live upon first conflict with clear warning that if they would face death should they do "X" again. Not to say FD isn't acceptable on first encounter, it is all dependant on the situation.
So yes, i don't agree with this suggestion at all.
No thanks. There is almost no griefing here or any type of abuse. Conflict happens and FD's are handed out ICly and properly about 95% of the time from my view of things.
No FD? That means... people not having a feeling of 'risk'?
"Hey, a DM isn't on. I'm safe. Let's go troll these guys, lololol."
Or, the playerbase getting static... the same 25 players play the same 25 PCs for 2 years. No thanks.
If this suggestion is to eliminate unjust FDs by requiring DM presence, it's pretty much a redundant measure, considering the fact that FDs are already supervised by the DMs in the sense that they can be retroactively reviewed.
If its purpose is to reduce the amount of FDs we have, I don't see the costs outweighing the benefits.
Quote from: Winston Martin;192539The threat of death is a big part of this server that most don't take seriously enough as it is. I would rather see a PC struggle for his ideas to see life, than be given an easier road.
This. I played on a server where people got FDed left and right, senselessly almost 100% of the time, and it was epic. People logged in solely for the reason of robbing/murdering people because they knew they could do it. It made it so that every action (and inaction) had meaning as opposed to the continuation of some stagnant storyline caught in eternal limbo.
I would be for the removal of nearly all PvP rules and a vast reduction (if not outright removal) of friendly/neutral NPCs altogether.
Do not listen to Semli.
Quote from: Wern8;192568Do not listen to Semli.
stop trolling you big troll
Serious suggestion is serious.
I'd also like to point out I didn't tell everyone to ignore the OP and/or accuse him of trolling by making a horrible suggestion.
The appeal of EfU:A is that it is constantly changing. And, to be fair, not every story deserves to be told to the conclusion that the player had in mind. Some players have no conclusion in mind.
It is hardly conducive to proper conflict if you require a DM for every FD action. Firstly, there's a shortage of DMs currently. Secondly, if you have to wait for a DM, there's a chance you'd get counter-ganked, whereas currently you can do your business and escape to kill another day. Thirdly, the more carebear-y this server gets, the less unique and interesting it will be.
Conflict and stories don't end at FD; people can get raised. Death is in every way a vital part of the setting, the server, the community, and the game in general. Don't restrict it more than it already has been.
Note that this is coming from a player that sux at PvP and loses more than wins, so you would think I'd be for this...
It's not all about the story or plot that could be ending. Why do we need to care about anothers plot? Seriously, why? If you don't want your plot to die, be more careful/cautious!!! I feel what we need to do is stop getting so attached to a PC that they become immortal and live forever. I'd agree with this idea if I didn't know that there are PC's around that have been fugued dozens and dozens and then a couple more times and yet are still around, (We playing EFU:A or Highlander? Die already!)/(FD PvP kills them, off with their heads!)
Not to mention the things that have already been stated by others about too many ways to beat this mechanically to make it logical in my opinion, (i.e., subdual under water = fugue).
I have to say I disagree with the idea of this, due to the fact we do not have a DM team that is constantly online. This would increase the pressure on the DM team and by adding this to the workload, we simply shoot ourselves in the foot when we seek more events.
Secondly, I could see this increasing the subdual/dry looting that already occurs.
Thirdly, players already metagame the lack of DM presence on the server, when a DM is not online you will see players being a lot more bold in the NPC populated areas. Due to the simple fact, they know that they will not get ganked. As it stands right now when no DM is online for these occasions, players who know they are being hunted will travel between areas via NPC populated routes.
[FONT="]Allthough it would be nice not to see people killing simple for the fact they like too, it’s a con that comes with the many pro’s of the current rulings. [/FONT]
It is important for players to be able to cultivate, manage, and ultimately resolve their conflicts on their own; I believe this regardless of the current DM coverage. We have rules for how to go about PvP/FD, and extensive resources for enforcing them should an issue need to be brought to our attention.
Did Wern8 just post in this thread?
I think the problem with the FDing everyone in an instant can be solved by showing some self-restraint and maturity.
I know where most of you are coming from, as I've had SEVERAL characters cut short for being bold. (Something that I think is absolutely necessary for ambitious characters.) I've literally been FD'd twice 30 minutes after creation. Now, I've seen this kind of behavior recede a LOT lately. Which is why I play more often now! Most people are mature enough to know that it's less about winning and more about the story. It's D&D. You can't lose. It's your character's life. Not success. They FDs I do see are usually well earned. However, every now and then, there's a bit of unpleasantness where someone kill another prematurely. Now, this can be done under the guise of "ICness" but it's really nothing more than seeing a chance to get someone's gold and consumables, and taking it without any chance of reprucussions. I once had a cleric of mine kill an NPC commoner. This resulted in a very thrilling 30 second chase, followed by being knocked down and killed for "Being Evil." It was very apparent the fellow wanted my character's things. He could have just knocked him out and taken them, but there seems to be a deep-rooted feeling in this server of winning first, storytelling second. He saw that he had an IC reason to kill my character, get his things, and suffer no consequences, and he took it, as was his right, however, I still feel that if this kind of behavior was diminished, threads like this would not be considered as a good idea at all. (Also, if anyone was a part of that bit of nastiness I used as an example above, I really have no hard feelings at all, it's just an example I'm using!)
I see the merit in this, but I'm not for it. I'd rather see the discouragment of FDing, not it's removal.
Its an interesting idea.
I do think that for the majority of the time we as players can be trusted to be mature though so I am not in favour.
Its a shame that there aren't more DM's to supervise all PVP, so that means we players need to maintain a cool and sensible approach to the game.
As I am still a very new player here I am a bit hesitant about entering this discussion, but here goes...
I have not actually been playing NWN for quite some time and the first time I played I was almost exclusively active on a server that did not have permadeath. On the whole, it still had some quite good roleplay but suffered badly from the lack of threat against a character's life. The absence of permadeath did not eliminate griefing there; rather, it caused it to proliferate as griefers could always seek refuge in the excuse that it 'at most cost their victims an XP hit'. And we saw too many people who had no respect for death at all.
Conversely, in the time I have played here, death has held a far more meaningful role. RP-wise, I have several times felt a true gut punch when my character learned that someone she liked and respected had died. Properly RPed out, FD is a great boon to the mood on a server, I feel.
However, I do see where the OP is coming from. I have experienced at least a few examples of hearing of PCs dying in somewhat questionable ways and they have all irritated me badly. The thing is, even then their deaths did not become entirely meaningless; it affects my character ICly when she hears of either friends or enemies dying and roleplaying her reactions can be interesting in and of itself. One recent death hurt her particularly badly as it struck her (and me) as random and pointless, but random and pointless deaths are also a fact of real life. I am quite ICly angry at the characters responsible and as a player I mourn the storyline cut short; even so it has happened and so it goes. I am sure my own character will also die in the end if I do not retire her.
But instead of changing the mechanic of FDing itself, wouldn't it rather be better to monitor how people are using it? The server should be able to log such events, after all; a pattern of abuse ought to be quite noticeable over time. Also, other PCs might be witness to how killer characters behave and decide to police their own ranks.
That was a long ramble. :/ Let me condense it: I see the OP's concern but I am worried about the consequences of changing how things work. But it is worth discussing even so.
I think I like this idea. Without reading any more than the OP I'd say that it would serve to prevent unnecessary or unjustified FD. If you cannot necessarily land a DM with time to oversee the whole act, you could just talk to one and explain your reasons for it. And if it's justified they press the FD button for you.
Perhaps a system similar to the ally system could be made? An enemy system where you talk to a DM and explain the reasons you want to FD someone (this could be handled through a forum board as well, I imagine) and if they are reasonable they toggle FD for you towards that specific PC. It might require an amount of scripting, but it's just a thought.
Edit: I might want to actually read the whole thread and think the matter through at a later time. So with the risk that this might intrude upon a player's "freedom" I will remain neutral.
I think this could lead to either more early FDing, or odd resolution of conflicts. For example:
- You catch a PC spying on you/mugging people/attempting a gank. You have a DM right now. You know that PC will do the same thing again, and he doesn't need a DM for anything that's not FD. Do you let them go, knowing that a "do this shit again and we WILL kill you" warning is an empty threat unless you can find a DM the next time you catch him, or do you FD them because a second chance is going to lead to third, fourth chances until you can finally get someone?
- You know Bob is after your PC, but what you don't know is that he's had a mage sidekick buffing him. They both attack you this time, you have Bob approved for FD, but not his friend.
- Your PC has a bounty on his head, is desperate and is going to kill anyone who tries to claim it. However you've no idea who that would be.
This would work only if once you are approved to FD someone else, everyone else is able to FD you for reasons of retribution/preventing the attack. And then we're back to square one TBH.
As Boomking says, FD/drylooting is a good way for PCs to grab shedloads of consumables and gear to sell or use. There's more than one way to cut down on it though. DMs handing out XP in greater quantities for subduals and merely token amounts for FDs that aren't inevitable. Arbitrarily removing some of the more powerful items from a dead PC's pack, as they "broke in the fight". Bank services in places other than the dominion. Banks are great for preventing ganking a rich PC from being a "get minted quick" scheme, as the account's inaccessible to the attacker.That means you can't hit someone, then buy a load of consumables with his money in expectation of a revenge attack.
I cant believe this is being discussed on EFUA. Lets add more things to keep PCS tough and ready with no DMS online. Honestly do we need a DM to nanny everything we do or to wait for both a DM and our intended target to be on at the same time to do anything?
There is already rules and style in place for when PCS FD someone for little to no reason I think this suggestion is quite honestly a joke that implys that the players of EFUA are babies who FD for no reason. I can say I know only a few instances where I was FD'd for utterly stupid reasons.
This suggestion is simply a joke and ooc FD consent is stupid PCS on this server already are lasting way longer then I expected and the last thing we need is something like this.
If your afraid of being FD'D dont piss people off and dont make any enemies permadeath is always a risk on EFUA. Presthont how would you feel if you needed a DM at your side every time with ZAU or Squeagle that you decided to execute someone when no DM was around?
This is a joke and will only place more drama and more for the DMS to handle as if they dont have more important things to do.
i've been FD killed for utterly retarded reasons including taking a quest before another group, so i sort of agree on Mag's point
Requiring DM presence would only make DM-lacking periods even worst for the players concerned. Players should not need DMs to act considerately, too. That includes both the winner of the pvp (make sure FD is justified), and the looser (don't be a sore looser, even if it's harsh).
I would rather see subdual being harsher on pcs (such as fuguing them but allowing respawn with the usual XP penalties), so that people started taking being subdued more seriously, but with a continuing story.
Then FD would be mostly for story-ending-drama only, not because of the fear-factor.
That being said, FD is used rather well by the playerbase, imo, and there'll always be borderline FDs that will spark endless yet sterile debates.
But that's just me.
If you really want to change Subdual, I'd say it send you to a "Knocked Unconcious" place like the Fugue.
@Darkness is often used for dream like states and other things by the DM Staff.
A sort of "You have been knocked unconcious.In 5 OOC minutes you may return to conciousness." No XP penalty, just potential loss of gear and other implications.
Some cool random events like coma-dreams and otherwise, would add some emphasis to being subdued.
5 minutes of OOC unconciousness leaving your stuff and body wherever it is would lead to a lot of serious events, and make "Kidnapping", "Slaving", and other issues a very real possibility.
Dragging someone along, if they wake up, pop them in the face again and back to dream land.