Inspired by the "REMOVE FD" posting, and LPFF's idea to beef up subdaul, I thought this would be interesting.
If you really want to change Subdual, I'd say it send you to a "Knocked Unconcious" place like the Fugue. You would still drop a movable corpse, and all of your gear, but you would simply be "Unconscious".
@Darkness is often used for dream like states and other things by the DM Staff.
A sort of "You have been knocked unconcious.In 5 OOC minutes you may return to conciousness." No XP penalty, just potential loss of gear and other implications.
Some cool random events like coma-dreams and otherwise, would add some emphasis to being subdued.
5 minutes of OOC unconciousness leaving your stuff and body wherever it is would lead to a lot of serious events, and make "Kidnapping", "Slaving", and other issues a very real possibility.
Dragging someone along, if they wake up, pop them in the face again and back to dream land. I can think of dozens of scenarios where this would be greatly appreciated by PCs and used for interesting conflcit and interaction.
Instead of a LOLPREBUFFGANK invis, you could jump a guy, subdue them, then drag their unconscious body to your safe-house or somewhere out of the way.
This way you can have good, honest, enjoyable assassin RP or kidnapping or living sacrifices without it being hashed out in a 30 second "Shit here comes everyone to gank me, gotta RP quick and run". fashion
Hostage situations, kidnappings, living sacrifice, hostile interrogation...
KO someone, drag them to a hideout.
Wait for them to wake up.
Interrogate and beat them under a mask and disguise.
KO them again
Drop them somewhere safe in the sewer, or near the Main gate.
Run away.
This
We were doing this once. I don't know what happened to it. I think maybe somebody found some weird, glaring technical reason that made it impossible to do actually. I don't remember that well though. It was like ScottyB who was looking into it iirc.
This should be in place.
I remember this being proposed a long time ago, and I can definitely think of quite a few cool means to use this off the top of my head, were it possibly implemented in a really simple form.
This sounds excellent. If do-able it would make sub-dual actually scary as you really have no idea what is going on and the attackers plans can't be meta-gamed, intentially or otherwise by the supposedly "unconscous" victim.
Maybe you could come out of it after a predetermined time (3 IG hours maybe?) or by someone waking you via a command?
Anyway, very good idea.
Hell. The FD System in place could may even be used for such, if Subdual was added to the serve to send you to the Fugue.
Simply a different conversation, with the Kelemvorite?
I know absolutely nothing about scripting but if you're already there, it could just be checked if you were sent there on Subdual or on FD, and give you a different conversation maybe?
"Oh, no, you're not dead. Calm down, you're just unconscious. It is not your time to be here. //Check back in five minutes to respawn to your corpse with no XP penalty"
Yes. Make it simple with a standard length of time... just enough for your attackers to grab your body and get it somewhere *fast* 5 minutes RL or so.
As RWG says the same scripting as the Fugue, but make it an OOC one with someone that you speak with and then you can "respawn" when you have waited the alotted time?
This sounds awesome.
The only problem I see here is that people will be more likely to be full looted since the gear will just be laying there for 5 minutes while a fight still rages, and basically no one watching.
Also, if you grab a friend and drag them to safety there's really no way to grab any of their gear (which really is on their person for all intents and purposes). Afterall, allies will want to grab people before their enemies get to them first.
If some way to do this where people wouldn't necessarily need to leave everything behind when knocked unconscious could be done then it's a very good idea. But the fact that the subdued person is there watching what's being taken is a form of deterrent for people full looting. A pack next to a seemingly dead body sort of says "grab it fast before it's gone!"
Risk.
Teaches people not to mouth off. Teaches people not to cause trouble without willing to take the lumps.
Brings more seriousness to PvP, without FD.
Get your head bashed in and you may wake up naked in a cornfield.
[shrug]
Of course the alternate risk is people become unwilling to enter conflict for fear of losing loot. I'm not really saying it shouldn't happen so much as I'm trying to see the downside to something like this. If people become too cautious then we've got a situation where very few interesting things happen.
The problem is even if people don't mean to take your things when they kidnap you or whatever, they almost certainly won't be able to. So those things will just sit wherever you were grabbed, and will be picked through by whatever person happens to walk by next.
I might be mistaken, friends, but when you are FDed, I'm pretty sure you lose all of your gear, too...
I've never been a fan of DMs locking people's packs... if you want to be caught rifling through someone's things in the midst of a raging battle, well... hop to it.
I do think some sort of means to slow the rate at which you can collect stuff out of it, but the practice itself should be a valid one.
People get full-looted anyhow. Even when subdued.
Quote from: Random_White_Guy;193662Risk.
Teaches people not to mouth off. Teaches people not to cause trouble without willing to take the lumps.
Brings more seriousness to PvP, without FD.
Get your head bashed in and you may wake up naked in a cornfield.
[shrug]
I find it a bit ironic how you call risk on this. Being unable to easily transport someone from the crime scene is also risky, as people can stumble on you guys.
That's, of course, without stating how people can sneak off carrying someone in the middle of a crowd without being noticed, due to the lack of emotes and/or visible signs.
Have no loot drop on subdual at all, no matter how much you beat someone. I mean, yank_pack and all its more specific forms are there for a reason. Suppose you expand those to be more specific? One each for gold, worn objects, containers, and regular inventory.
Otherwise, everything stays on the person unless they're dead. If they've been knocked unconscious, then add the weight of their pack to their body and let someone carry it, or else strip their pack with the command and just take the body.
Just going to fugue and waiting won't scare anyone much, although it'll allow more rp options so it's definitely a good start imo.
I do endorse XP loss too because:
XP penalty means the looser will OOCly think twice about ganking back straight away because he's technically gotten weaker.
It also means people provoking others will actually think thrice about it. One for the show, one for the equipement loss, one for the XP loss. Careless OOC boasting and witless pvp over nothing will probably be given more thought, too. (No offense intended to anyone here).
RP wise it also means you actually get broken by the fight, not just “i'm back again on my feet 5 mn laterâ€.
It’ll give more use to sparring mode, too.
What i do fear is people being subdued 2-3 times in a row and thus getting too much XP loss. But then again that usually happens when the subdued guy acts as if nothing happened, so that should settle itself smoothly.
I think there's plenty of loss already from being subdued and looted, without adding XP loss onto it. But couldn't you also extend the weakness suffered from being subdued to a much longer duration? Right now I think you lose AC, among other things, and if that lasted 10x as long, you'd -definitely- think twice about just jumping back into it. It would definitely be a punishment, and a reminder to use sparring mode when sparring.
I love the idea of being able to move someone without them knowing.
This idea is 100% sexy.
Unfortunately, with all great ideas, this will go through a brief period of overuse (non-app goblins and kobolds, anyone?). Everyone be mindful of that when and if this awesome thing happens.
Brilliant, do want.
How would you solve the problem of being able to walk freely through the ziggurat (for instance) carrying your captive that no one can see?
Automatic emotes are possible, I believe. When carrying a corpse or body of a player, every thirty seconds an emote is issued..."The Body of X is being carried by X."
To Capricious' question: An easy way to avoid people walking around not emoting corpses, would be to put an OOC "Corpse" flag on them. Those flags that come off of the backs of PCs on capture the flag servers.
This sounds like it could be an excellent idea, but I can also see the potential problems is may cause.
As with any new system it would take time to get use to and 'fix' any potential problems.
I say, if it can be, we implement it for a time and see how it goes. (Much like the stealth color was) If it doesn't work it can always be removed.
Also seeing as a DM should always be notified of PvP, they would be able to monitor the system in action on a regular basis to be sure it is not bugged.
Theres Pro's and cons to everything. There always will be, lets not be carebears and badger a great idea!
make it happen, dawgz.
Quote from: Drat;193699Theres Pro's and cons to everything. There always will be, lets not be carebears and badger a great idea!
Too right. Discussing an idea is terrible, we might know if the pros outweigh the cons, or be able to suggest potential problems so they can be avoided before someone abuses them O_o.
QuoteI've never been a fan of DMs locking people's packs... if you want to be caught rifling through someone's things in the midst of a raging battle, well... hop to it.
The problem is it's rather hard to *be* caught in the midst of a raging battle, because the actual combat fills up the combat log so fast you can't notice the "you see X acquire X" messages.
The ability to KO and kidnap PCs is something that IMO would lead to fewer FDganks against "hard target" PCs as you'd be able to hit them fast and run with your kidnap victim before someone drove you off. You might be able to sub a PC but not defeat all his allies, leaving you with no choice but to FD them if you want them out the way. A kidnap mode would give weaker factions more interesting ways to fight stronger ones than having to resort to straight up silent assassination.
Anyway. Problems and ideas to solve them
- Multi XP loss/griefing justified by "it's only subdual". Accidentally deleveling someone off a spar mistake.
- Hit a subbed PC with 2 levels of subdual maluses. One usual one, and a second one that's long-term (level drain would be good as it can be fixed if you're willing to pay or find a L9 Cleric, but will make you wary of any PVP when you're a level or 2 down)
- The potential for grabbing an unconscious PC to be way of making sure you get all his loot and don't have to risk spending time picking stuff out a pack.
- /c kidnap option.Takes the same amount of time as yank_pack all and drops a pack, while putting a body into your inventory and sending your target to @Darkness.
[/LIST]
- PCs looting packs of kidnapped PCs with ease:
- Lock pack dropped from /c kidnap
- /c rummage_pack command that removes one random small item or d100 gold from the nearest locked pack and emotes *X rummages through X's pack, looting something* in general chat
[/LIST]
This would definitely be a fine thing to come in game. However, I can clearly see the possible problems with the issues on body and dropped items, and what not.
Ideas are easy to come up with - how much of it is viable for scripters is completely different thing. If one doesn't do scripting, they have no idea how much even smallest of things can sometimes take from the maker.
QuoteJust going to fugue and waiting won't scare anyone much, although it'll allow more rp options so it's definitely a good start imo.
I do endorse XP loss too because:
XP penalty means the looser will OOCly think twice about ganking back straight away because he's technically gotten weaker
I don't think this should be desirable. I lose in PvP so back to powerquesting untill i'm level 7 again? This makes levels being much more important than they should. And only leads to people powerquesting more often, instead of doing proper RP.
Mind you, "Just going to the fuge" it's not it, you risk all your potions, DM loot and gold to be stolen, mechanically-wise. Additinally, being knocked unconcious by someone who isn't your average bandit is scary as hell, you might be sacrificed, your current plotline ended, etc. RPwise, who knows?
QuoteIt also means people provoking others will actually think thrice about it. One for the show, one for the equipement loss, one for the XP loss. Careless OOC boasting and witless pvp over nothing will probably be given more thought, too. (No offense intended to anyone here).
And is this truly desirable? This makes people less likely to start PvP for the show and entertainment of everyone, instead, players will not engage PvP unless they are certian they will win, making brawls at the wastrel, or maybe a dispute that ends in a swordfight much less likely.
QuoteRP wise it also means you actually get broken by the fight, not just “i'm back again on my feet 5 mn laterâ€.
It’ll give more use to sparring mode, too.
What i do fear is people being subdued 2-3 times in a row and thus getting too much XP loss. But then again that usually happens when the subdued guy acts as if nothing happened, so that should settle itself smoothly.
There are other ways to RP "broken by the fight", if the subdual penalties lasted 30 minutes instead of 5, people would not be as willing to fight over and over after getting up. Without the need of focring somone to powerquest trogs untill he hits 7.
Instead of the level drain proposed by dollarphill, how about a singnificant AC, AB, Saving throw pentaly plus some spell failture?
as for other problems
Quote from: DollarPhil;193719- The potential for grabbing an unconscious PC to be way of making sure you get all his loot and don't have to risk spending time picking stuff out a pack.
- /c kidnap option.Takes the same amount of time as yank_pack all and drops a pack, while putting a body into your inventory and sending your target to @Darkness.
[/LIST]- PCs looting packs of kidnapped PCs with ease:
- Lock pack dropped from /c kidnap
- /c rummage_pack command that removes one random small item or d100 gold from the nearest locked pack and emotes *X rummages through X's pack, looting something* in general chat
[/LIST]
I propose the following:
When on subdual mode, if a PC is subdued he'll automatically drop his pack, and act as the subdal mode works right now. When hit a second or third time, he will be *subdued and unconcious* wich does the effect suggested in this thread. All dropped packs of dead or subdued PCs are automatically locked.
Add a "/c steal pack" command or player tool, that allows a PC to steal from a locked pack, when used near a pack, the PC uses the bend emote and an auto emote pops up like the one you described *Steaks from X's pack*, and takes about a round or two to complete.
Then, you steal some of the stuff from the pack, preferably, the more your pick pocket skill is, the mroe you can steal in each attempt, perhaps something as
1d100 gold + 1d20 gold for each rank in pick pocket
1d3 potions + 1d4 potions per 5 ranks in pick pocket
A random item for each 5 ranks in pick pocket
Or something like that, a rogue/bard with lots of ranks in pick pocket should be able to steal from a pack rather quickly, but the rest will have to wait untill there are no enemies and spend a turn doing so.
I like this idea of "ko" mode.
Is anybody still seriously considering XP loss for not dying? Just curious where the discussion has come to on that little insanity.
hopefully not, sounds retarded
Why isn't this happening already?
:)
On a serious note, I think this should be in place. However, I also think that sparring mode should be left as is so you can still have classic duels.
I'm all for the knockout idea, but the suggestions about limiting how much you can loot from a fallen PC seems a bit lame if you ask me. It takes away that risk factor and the one taking from the pack would surely take what they want not grab a few gold and run.
For example: You might be hunting someone because they have a particular item in their possesion that you want/need and they are not oing to give it up without a fight. If it is implemented as suggested then instead of "Subduel mode" being used they will FD them so they can gain said item, which is something that shouldn't be encouaged.
Kidnapping sounds awesome.
Are devs liking and incorporating this awesome suggestion?
I'm concerned by the options I see people presenting because they seem to represent more of a RL situation where you just got pounded into ground meat instead of a DnD situation where yer fighting undead. I mean break my leg? *uses a cure Mod potion* all better. Break both legs and arms? Use a cure critical. So seriously considering these items have the ability to bring someone back from the brink of death I don't see where it fits in that they have to suffer for long periods of time after downing 5-6 cure moderate/serious potions? Perhaps instead a daze/stun/charm person like effect for a different amounts of time depending on how bad they have been knocked around since some of those prevent doing anything including potion use. Would be simple to have it progress from simply being dazed to say a full on black out with blindness and such like resting.