The Docks is doing well right now, but mostly that seems to be player-driven and due to how new concepts have panned out. There's not much that I can see that really nudges a concept towards the docks, or encourages a Dominion PC to consider changing sides. That's not a problem is people are making a good number of Dock PCs, but when that starts to tail off as things do on EfU:A, it makes it tougher to get the ball rolling again.
The majority of newbie quests that serve to show you around the place are in the Dominion. The Sons haven't posted any bounties on recent murderers or slavers. There have been multiple undercover PCs in the Docks going for Ruby, but there's not so much an equivalent reason for a PC to want to spy on the Dominion. There might be a useful faction HQ, but there's no way in unless you always have a lockpicker with you and there's no lockable storage outside the Wastrel rooms. Without any banking you have to carry all your money personally and save up 15k or whatever for a faction HQ, in a place renowned for thievery. Makes it hard to set up a gang with a bit of faction territory, compared to the Dominion with guildhalls.
It would be good to see a few DM-dropped hints or systems for ways to gain power/turf/influence in the Docks. For example the Sons being more open about a policy of offering membership and Favoured Son rank to PCs who set up a notable faction, in the same way the Duchy offers Lordship. Or rather than paying patricianship then renting faction HQs, the Docks scripted way of gaining them could be having to drive out an NPC gang, then pay protection to the Sons.
Hell, for months now most of the PCs are usually in the docks and are slaver haters. If it weren't for RwG the Zigg would be empty. We need encouragment (other than RwG) for the dominion, not the docks!
Where people are always fluctuates due to events and roleplay. We can make that point all day, back and forth. The Docks are busy right now because people there are having fun, simple as that.
However, that said, the Docks still aren't done. There's a few shops incomplete, for instance. This is a major area of the PW, I think it deserves to be completed.
Banking is one thing suggested a while back, I feel this is very important. The consequences for Docksmen are very severe should they cross the Dominion, as it should be. I don't think it's necessary that we need carry all our gold around as well. Many of us have access to storage, there's no good RP reason why we'd carry a fortune in our pockets when we've got ingame places to put it. We simply can't because of the nature of NWN.
Delivery quests would be great too, a way for low level PCs to find their way around the Docks, learn of the history of it and the people there, and earn a bit of gold and XPs as well. A delivery to Mundt (after his shop is in the mod) for instance, or one to Cyrus Doors, etc.. These kinds of things will help bring out the flavor of the place much better.
And yes, I think some way to encourage new gangs would be great too. A form of guildhall system gives them something to rally around. Of course it would need to be far different than what the Duchy has, but staking out a claim to a small piece of turf is very difficult to do right now, which discourages new gangs and the resulting rivalries they bring.
I would like to have a bit more completion with the docks.... it's very very close, and I really do prefer it to the ziggurat, which is kinda bland in comparison.
I agree with both above posts.
Finish the docks, then make the ziggy cooler so people want to make zigg PCs
i go find rock
Instead of pickpocketing merchants like on the ZIg,
Merchants should be able to be bluff/intimidated into giving up "Protection Money".
Quote from: ShadowCharlatan;194707I've heard these kinds of observations from various players now. I do think something should be done to make the Docks more prominent.
The Dominion has a number of things over the Docks:
- Clear, (and relatively easy), systematic social advancement for characters. Citizen > Patrician > Lord/Lady ... It even has a number of other positions of authority/influence that are obtainable for appropriately themed characters. eg. The Headmastership of the Syndicate Library and Proprietor of the Velvet Mask.
The Docks isn't a lawful society. This is clear. Therefore, 'systematic social advancement' is obviously not intentional. The Docks are set up in a much more sandbox manner, where leaders and groups can rise and fall more freely. If you want to advance, you create a memorable character with an interesting/involving
agenda and then take your shot. Making the Docks your personal fief is not out of the question, if you play your cards right, whereas that is very unlikely to happen in the more regulated Dominion. This is by design, and isn't something I would consider a detrimental thing, as you infer it must necessarily be.
Quote- Guildhouses. Is there room for a system akin to the guildhouse system that is justified by "claiming turf" and paying an NPC thug (alike to the Guards outside guildhouses) to protect it without needing DM assistance? Or the boat system Kiaring suggested a while ago. I think this would be an especially powerful measure to implement, as it gives people something to rally around and fight over. I know there is a hideout, but it's just not the same and is not really easy enough to access.
People should be rallying around and fighting for PCs and their agendas, not automated guildhouses. It didn't happen in the Ziggurat and it is unlikely to happen in the Docks. The Docks was supposed to be a violent and desperate slum with competing gangs and groups, but it became a big distict-wide social club. Maybe when people get more dynamic, we could add these. As it stands, its not worth the bother.
Quote- Easily accessible bank. And free Patrician bank.
I fail to see why the Docks needs a bank, or how not having one is bad. Its a dirty and unlawful slum.
Quote- There are still a number of areas in the Docks that are unfinished/unopened. It still feels incomplete this way.
True.
Quote- The politics/intrigue of the Docks is not as visible or vibrant as that of the Dominion. Lords and Ladies have come and gone, but I can only think of about two player run Docks gangs that have been comparably notorious. And not at the same time. Is there room for a Docks Pulpit forum, akin to the Atop the Ziggurat forum?
Yes, its called Public Notices. I dont' even know why there's a 'Atop the Ziggurat' forum to begin with. And if there's a lack of intrigue or politics in the Docks, the fault is with players, because, again, the Docks is designed to be much more player-orientated than the Dominion, and another forum won't change that.
The "Atop the Ziggurat" thing is more or less the bulletin board, yeah. It's just as easy in many ways. There's been like...4 posts, ever before I started using it a few days back. Kinda cool, but pretty useless truth be told.
The biggest thing in the docks iti's what -players want-. If you want it to be more orderly and attempt a hierarchy, then do it! PCs give you nonsense, grab a DM, and try to bust some skulls.
Claiming "Turf" is just as simple as marking off an area with some gear, and saying "You come inside this square, me and my boys, we're throwing elbows".
My last docks PC I felt was a pretty big headache, but that was due to a lack of players at the time. I did a few things to pursue my plots, claimed "The Narrows" as territory and even fought a few PCs over my right to lay there in the dirt.
I can't say one way or another how the Docks is at the moment, but as an outsider looking in, and all the crazy shit going on- I can honestly say I wish I had Seraph running around now rather than when I did.
It's just an issue of finding a place to set up shot and put down stakes, a neat agenda to try and recruit PCs to, and a willingness to get your teeth knocked out or crack a few heads.
There's some stuff that I remember seeing planned that isn't in yet so I'm sure in time that will get cool, and the sheer amount of "Sand-Box" is brilliant.
So long as you don't break the few rules, and don't mind getting mugged, you can really do -almost anything you want- in terms of plots/etc. if you aren't afraid to challenge the bigger gangs and make your own way.
QuoteThe Docks isn't a lawful society. This is clear. Therefore, 'systematic social advancement' is obviously not intentional. The Docks are set up in a much more sandbox manner, where leaders and groups can rise and fall more freely. If you want to advance, you create a memorable character with an interesting/involving agenda and then take your shot. Making the Docks your personal fief is not out of the question, if you play your cards right, whereas that is very unlikely to happen in the more regulated Dominion. This is by design, and isn't something I would consider a detrimental thing, as you infer it must necessarily be.
An excellent point. When I first started my last docks character I felt how the OP and SC did, but after putting in some work there was a rather 'large' group following the powers of chaos and Karida, from what I can tell, was somewhat of a leadership figure running a good portion of things. What made it even better was the other factions that were pushing a similar agenda through far different means, both fully viable and competing for power yet working towards the same end. Each of these things remains today in one way or the other.
QuoteThe Docks was supposed to be a violent and desperate slum with competing gangs and groups, but it became a big distict-wide social club. Maybe when people get more dynamic, we could add these. As it stands, its not worth the bother.
You have a large group of people with a similar belief and agenda. They fight against control and all the things it comes with, including slavery and other similar issues. You cannot expect these people not to rally as a whole and fight against the primary enemy while looking beyond their smaller differences. Your vision of the docks does not work, just like it never worked when NPC gangs tried to mug people and it was a cry fest that they should just let it happen. It may be a chaotic and crazy place, but that doesn't mean the people are all ignorant and blind to the greater concerns. Trying to push that issue has always been foolish, from when NPCs were mugging random players and DMs crying that others interfered to now when they need to be somewhat unified more than ever due to a lack of power.
QuoteI fail to see why the Docks needs a bank, or how not having one is bad. Its a dirty and unlawful slum.
Similar to the inner portion of many RL cities that are 'slums' and have a lot of issues. A bank would thrive there and a few powerful guards would offer enough protection to prevent your typical thugs from snatching up bags of gold. An interest rate would pay and equip them well and the argument against it is rather bland when you have shops and other merchants offering things without the luxury of guards.
QuoteI fail to see why the Docks needs a bank, or how not having one is bad. Its a dirty and unlawful slum.
Because it's something of a missing link. Since there are no scripted HQ/privilege systems in the docks, building something requires a large amount of hard cash in one go, and that's easy for a robbery to interrupt. Obvious faction leaders do tend to be targets. Furthermore it makes the supposedly "poorer" Docks a better target for crook PCs, because they know everyone's going to have all their money on them. When I played a criminal a while back, I was trying to persuade my buddies to leave the Dominion alone because PCs coming from the Docks were a much better chance of money. Being an unlawful slum is in fact a good reason there should be a bank, because people are going to be more careful with their money. Having it underwritten by the Sons and used to help fund their activities (Mafia front bank FTW) would be a reason to trust it, a reason not to try and break it, and a reason for the Sons to let "Don't fuck with us" override "Meh, robbery, we don't care"
Since I'm playing a PC in a high-profile player-led gang that has accomplished a lot in the Docks, I've seen first-hand how it's
possible to do a lot more potentially in the Docks than the Dominion. However, it's also more difficult to get something past the "We have 4 people and a name" point. People seem to be underestimating the utility of simple things for keeping a faction lively. A faction storage box is a way to bypass playing time differences over a larger group and have a faction cooperate on goals involving reagents/plot items/selling equipment. A locked door keeps other people out even if you've only got one PC on to defend an area, but at the same time entices them to spy more than a "keep out" notice if your PCs aren't around. Anything that provides a persistent presence for a group helps raise their profile.
Perhaps what would be cool is to have a few keys to the Docks Hideout somehow distributed, along with keys for the persistent chests in the other ruins hideouts. Of course, make those chests lockable first. This would give players something to fight over or sell, and not need DMs to set things up, or scripting. Make it clear in the descriptions that these keys aren't faction items, but designed to change hands and be something to track down. If you knew you had
"Bronze Chest Key 2/4", your gang's going to be after the other 3, in a sort of minaturised Numeric Stones Plot.
QuoteThe Docks was supposed to be a violent and desperate slum with competing gangs and groups, but it became a big distict-wide social club. Maybe when people get more dynamic, we could add these. As it stands, its not worth the bother.
Nothing unites like a common enemy. There's enough external threats that open internal conflict's a dumb idea for groups. There is however a heapin' helping of subterfuge, spying, conspiracy and paranoia.
tl;dr:
Lock the Persistent Chests or Doors in Hideout areas. Drop Keys on DM Spice or as other small rewards. Allow factions to duke it out/bribe to get all the keys to a chest/door, and effectively control that hideout.
Personally, I feel the docks need more inter-conflict. Surely, it's a common fact their biggest common enemy is the Duke, but I feel it should get more interesting than that.
Possibly making a PC to gain that turf, or a greater influence than the common man would be great. Challenge the hierarchy (whatever that may be).
A PC could view the Docks almost as PCs viewed it during EfU:A's creation; a place young, raw, and ripe. Make a character that plans to exploit this.
From an outsider's view, the docks seem like a faction itself. Break it apart, make smaller factions, make gangs, try to start your own bank and charge outrageous prices, etc.
There's only a handful of things I can think of now, but I'm sure there's a ton more you all can think of that could stir more conflict up.
The title of this thread is "Docks incentives for new PCs" not "Give us your opinion of Docks RP."
Also, things are not always as they seem, unless you're in the middle of it you just don't know.
Banks are foolish. No one has a bank in the slums.
A loan shark though, who will hold your gold for a large cut, or give you it for a large cut, would be perfect.
Ledskir!
Bank? No just lockable chests.
How about lockable chests that do not use keys but always require a lock picker? Some chests have higher DC than others. You cannot have a good gang without great lock-pickers. Much better than just having some nose-pickers if I might add. Tsk, Tsk, you cannot get in because your rogue is in a different timezone, recruit another. Could definitely mean rogues are always highly prized in the Docks.
Aww, your rogue gets hisself killed ... get a new one or pay/harass one to help you get to your chest. Let these chests carry gold therefore no banks required.
Hmm, now you will have to worry about competing gangs and their rogues getting to your stuff. I think this is a reasonable risk and makes for some good RP.
District-wide social club
This I think is problematic in that with all of the hassles you get from the Dominion, having to worry about fighting two or three competing gangs at home is problematic. If each gang had 5-10 members this might be more interesting, but there are not enough players to have 30 people in the Docks with 3-4 gangs operating at the same time. It makes sense to rally around one gang, or two, as a merely population thing. Okay this is mere a viewpoint and no particular suggestion or useful commentary. Please be on your way, nothing else here of interest.
"I'll hold your gold, lad... if you give me 25%, yeah?"
It better happen.
It's hard to have gang wars if you're more worried about the ten thousand enemies that want to see the docks burn. I mean, you can't expect people not to band together against the dominion and all that.
Fact: If there's no chance of war between the docks and the dominion, then there will be lots of gang wars.
If this was done, we'd have more appeal added to the docks, because one of the main reasons players would avoid it is because of the fact that living there is essentially painting a target on yourself if you go to the dominon on occasion. And Vice Versa, really. I'm not saying there shouldn't be conflict between the factions, but right now it's too much. This is almost an all-out war. It should be subtle, not all this sending war, "Let's see who can drink potions the fastest" duel challenges.
QuoteYou have a large group of people with a similar belief and agenda. They fight against control and all the things it comes with, including slavery and other similar issues. You cannot expect these people not to rally as a whole and fight against the primary enemy while looking beyond their smaller differences. Your vision of the docks does not work, just like it never worked when NPC gangs tried to mug people and it was a cry fest that they should just let it happen. It may be a chaotic and crazy place, but that doesn't mean the people are all ignorant and blind to the greater concerns. Trying to push that issue has always been foolish, from when NPCs were mugging random players and DMs crying that others interfered to now when they need to be somewhat unified more than ever due to a lack of power.
Firstly, those NPCs were let loose to reinforce the fact that the Sons of Sabuth weren't the police of the Docks. In leiu of PCs mugging PCs in a district where there are no laws against it, we had to use NPCs; and lo and behold, the Sons and every PC there all banded together to stop these NPCs. This had nothing to do with outside threats, but you still had the Wastrel Table Alliance grouping up to fight together.
Secondly, a lack of power should foment intra-Docks strife
more, not less. If you can't see this you have no idea about what the Docks is.
Lastly, there is absolutely no reason why competing gangs and PCs can't band together temporarily if the Docks are threatened. But most of the time, the district should be bathed in intrigue and bloodshed as different PCs and their groups collide over ideas, slights and power.
Last time there was a gang war between PCs in the Docks? Can't remember. As someone said, its a little too 'problematic' for people. Things must be ordered, neat and easy. I'm sure you will defend this with irrelevant references to the Dominion, though.
QuoteAlso, things are not always as they seem, unless you're in the middle of it you just don't know.
I can't stress that enough. There are a lot of plots and conspiracies I can see even DMs missing if they're not about IG for it, because they don't make even the private forums.
QuoteLast time there was a gang war between PCs in the Docks? Can't remember.
I could name one open conflict within a gang, one open conflict between gangs, and 2-3 cloak and dagger plots within or between factions in the last three weeks. If you want to hear the exact details, Caddies, find me on IRC or ask for a PM. It's mostly though that they're small scale and overshadowed by big conflicts like Drayden doing his one man invasion impression every week, and the Banites.
QuoteHow about lockable chests that do not use keys but always require a lock picker?
The point of group-accessible lockable chests is not so much to just store spare stuff but to allow trading items among a faction without this sort of time zone issue. The Docks hideout is problematic enough in that if you spawn there and can't pick locks, you're stuck. It got ridiculous on the Laddermen, in that we had to recruit Bailey on occasion to open our own damn HQ because none of us had high enough Open Lock XD.
QuoteHmm, now you will have to worry about competing gangs and their rogues getting to your stuff. I think this is a reasonable risk and makes for some good RP.
The risk of looting someone else's chest with Open Lock is effectively zero if you can avoid them. Having to mug/DM supervised Pick Pocket a key is actually risky both from getting it and the fact it's then evidence that can be used to find you out.
Quote from: Caddies;194808Last time there was a gang war between PCs in the Docks?
I don't see the logic of even trying unless you want to play second fiddle to the Sons and have Sons PC boss you around. Even if you're the leader of the second biggest gang in the Docks the Sons will always be there to push you around. The Sons are a DM run pet faction that would take an act of god and congress to oust, so it's almost a why bother (IMO). But there is always that off chance you can be the next Montezi family and actually get god and congress to oust the Sons, who knows [shrug]...
And as far as "
Also, things are not always as they seem, unless you're in the middle of it you just don't know." I'd like to say that even DM's shouldn't be saying this. It's a sign that you don't play well with others. This is a game and each and every PC that shows interest should be given the benefit of the doubt and let into the plot so they can have fun too. Except in the rare occation that the PC's just totaly wouldn't do that (
say a banite and a Paladin of Tyr hooking up and becoming friends; that sort of thing). Otherwise no matter the outcome, be they (
the interested PC) a legitimate ally or a spy it makes the game better for all. Don't give them the cold shoulder and think OOC that you don't trust them. Bring em into the loop and work with it ffs. I've had PC's that were part of the faction and when certain other players and plots poked their noses up my "allies" would say things like "I have to take care of something" and walk away leaving me hanging (
explain to me again why we join factions?). This isn't just not fun, it's kinda rude. If you want your plot to grow you have to feed it, not just tread water with it. For good or bad, GET PEOPLE INVOLVED.
Being that it doesn't look promising for my app... Perhaps I will make a banker/loan-shark concept... If you see issues someplace work with it and post the changes you've made in the Module Change Request Thread (//%22http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20182%22)... Maybe something will come of it, maybe not...
:???: But what do I know, I just come here to have fun...
QuoteThis is a game and each and every PC that shows interest should be given the benefit of the doubt and let into the plot so they can have fun too.
Er... what? That's exactly how to make sure every underhand plan ever falls apart.
The entire point of running conspiracies and intra-faction plots is to sneak stuff past other PCs, and sneaky plans don't work with too many people involved. It's also why nobody's trying to prove Caddies wrong by saying exactly what's happening :P. If you want your PC to be part of a covert plot, you have to earn trust IC by demonstrating reliability and loyalty to PCs or groups. I've never seen any of your recent PCs get really involved in a faction, they've always been mostly on the sidelines. If you suspect your PC is being excluded from something, well, that means it's time to spy on your own buddies! Even if you don't think you're directly in on a plot it can influence you.
Incidentally, if you were keeping an eye on recent Docks events you'd realise that right now the Laddermen are arguably more prominent than the Sons. The Sons' laissez-faire approach to things means they're less pushing around than trying to balance things to remain in some vague control.
I started this thread to highlight IG features and facilities that would remove obstacles to getting characters, factions and plots progressing in the Docks. Cerberus, if you want your PCs involved in big stuff from the get-go, you have to run the plot yourself. You can't expect to make an instant trusted lieutenant in a district that's paranoid about Duchy and Conclave infiltrators and has regular double or indeed triple agents :D.
Explain to me again why we join factions? Seriously...
If you're not going to let others join in on the plot, and it's a big bad secrete that will be dead when your PC dies [shrug], yeah, thats a good plot. Have fun with it. More PC's means the plot has a better chance of working, not failing. If you find a spy, or a PC that's not a spy but has lose lips and blabs something, work with it IG. If he's not a spy and doesn't have lose lips then you have a good ally... I really fail to see how NOT getting others involved is more fun.
But whatever...
You earn trust IC, through roleplay, it's not granted for just being there. Now, back to the discussion at hand?
You're right of course... PC's showing interest in something you're doing IG/IC and or members of your faction shouldn't be trusted and should be left out. Sorry, I'll try to remeber that next time...
And for the record, I didn't post the, "Also, things are not always as they seem, unless you're in the middle of it you just don't know." and therefore didn't take this thread off topic, I simply replied to it.