This perk is much more powerful than any feat is. It grants two additional attacks at level eight, one at primary ab and one at secondary, rather than one additional attack with reduced ab as was seemingly intended. It allows the bard to be much more powerful in a melee than pure ab classes.
There has been a lot of vagueness thrown over this perk, but I have tested it and can demonstrate anytime anyone wants that it does indeed grant the above.
A feat that granted one additional attack at full ab would always be taken. It is superior to flurry of blows and rapid shot, which suffer a -2 ab penalty to all attacks. It is superior to dual-wielding, which does likewise and always takes a damage penalty to the offhand.
A feat that granted one additional attack at full and one at secondary ab, the way this perk does, would be ridiculous and would be removed from the game. If the perk cannot be changed, I suggest it be removed.
Second the change / removal of broken perk.
The perk sucks when you have low levels of bard, if you have low bard levels the perk is weaker then bard song.
Not the point. It utterly dominates at higher levels with an enormous Attack Bonus and extra attacks per round.
TBH I say remove the perk.
Unless we wish a world full of pure bard champions, smashing the faces of fighters and barbarians together. Yeah, remove that
some srs bs afaik remove asap
Yes. Remove or alter.
Personally, I am still in favour of that single extra attack per round, but with the damage resistance, speed boost, and bonus to AB? It still seems like much for a Bard.
And DrD, that's not the point at all. The perks weren't set into play to be -better- than the original Song. I was under the understanding that it was for flavour and diversity.
I don't see anything wrong with pure bards smashing the faces of fighters and barbarians if they specifically build to do so. Makes a change from full BAB chars being the usual duel crushers because potions lower the advantage of being able to cast spells. Trouble with Battlemarch though is you can be a combat monster and still be able to support a party with bard song. A good Perk would be one that takes bard song and twists it so you can be personally destructive, but with some other drawback. That's flavour rather than straight enhancement, as you changed the focus of the class.
I'd say remove the AB bonus and speed bonus. That's so good for getaways, as it's undispellable, see Caius Drayden's many escapes for details. Instead have the song grant a minor Discipline and Concentration boost to the party, representing a bonus to martial organisation. Overall effects would be:
+1-2 attacks for the bard
+2-3 Disc/Conc for bard and all allies
+1-2 damage for bard and all allies.
This would make it worse than standard bard song as a party buff (no bonus AB, no saves, no general skill bonus, no temp HP) but better as a buff for the bard himself.
Side note. As Calculor mocks excellently, just saying "broken, remove" doesn't add or support any reasons for why it's broken or how to change it. "+1" isn't a good argument for change.
Theoretically I like this feat, if it would work as intended. As it is now I would rather say remove or alter it!
I like the perk a lot. I had thought the extra attacks where at +0 BAB, wich didn't make it too imbalanced, and the bonues to the party aren't too great, if it is fixed so the attacks are at +0, it will still be quite powerfull, but not imbalanced.
This might become a more interesting perk if it didn't buff the Bard himself, but only nearby allies.
Tweak it down a notch if the DM's think its OP.
Having personally quested/fought people with this perk I am not sure its all that great. Useful yes, but high level front line bards, have some significant weaknesses e.g almost no discipline, low HP's, and have had to use up multiple feats etc. to get armour/shields/weapon proficency.
Removing it totally, is silly, not least as it would screw over people who have made their PC's background and build fit this perk.
Yalta makes a good point. Melee bards are lacking in many areas.
Champion Bards also require a great deal of loot, and need to be lvl 8, before they start pwning faces. Having watched Caius in a tough PVE fight, he isn't a tank. He chugs potions like he's gettin shitfaced, has to run back behind lines occasionally to rebuff.
I think people certain people might be mad they can't PVPrickroll a certain bard even when he has one arm behind his back, is all.
QuoteI think people certain people might be mad they can't PVPrickroll a certain bard even when he has one arm behind his back, is all.
I think certain people might be mad their source of easy quest / Dm event xp has been threatened by a suggestion.
@Egon, bards can be strong frontliners without this perk, and excellent duelists as well. This is not about tanking however, this is about offense - too much of it for a perk, and far too much period. Whether one Battlemarcher does or doesn't shine defensively is not the point of this thread at all.
Quotehigh level front line bards, have some significant weaknesses e.g almost no discipline, low HP's, and have had to use up multiple feats etc. to get armour/shields/weapon proficency.
What? Bards get armor and shields as starting feats, they've never had to take them. They can use morningstars and spears without any feats, which are not great, but not bad either. Bards have discipline as a class skill and can easily have it as high as any pure ab class. Low hps, I concur, but if that's your argument then Battlemarcher should do more defensively and less offensively, such as add damage resistance (it does) or additional hitpoints over the vanilla bardsong.
QuoteTweak it down a notch if the DM's think its OP.
Some of the dms still think this perk grants only one extra attack because no one has told them exactly how it is operating. Any dm who think it is not OP merely has to make themselves a level eight bard, take the perk, and go to town against a same level barbarian or whatever monster in the module they like. If they sincerely believe it is not op after that, that's fine. If they believe it isn't op without having known how it is working, that isn't.
I would rather see it give 2 attacks to ranged weapons, 1 to melee weapons.
No ab bonus, speed bonus is fine. But i do think increased ab AND attacks.. you are giving a monk's power with better ab in terms of offensive powers to a bard, who already have crazy good class abilities.
Dont remove it. Just tune it down considerably to a level that is the same of the others.
This feat is strong, but in all honesty I do not believe it is utterly impossible.
Things to concidere, what is EFU's average level,
When does this feat increase in strength dramastically,
What is being exchange for this song at that level.
What is the difference between this level bard and say a pure fighter, pure wizard, pure ranger.
What is the difference between this bard and the other bard songs.
This bard kicks ass. :/
I didn't think Bards got heavy and medium armour feats or discipline as a skill, "D" on NWN bard mechanics for me.
In so many other posts people have said "Perks are flavour, they are not meant to be powerful stat buffs". This could easily add flavour with one extra attack.
Yeah sounds sensible, keep the same, just lower to one extra attack, rather than two.
It's easy to get fixated on extra attacks per round and jump to throwing this out. Having tangled with aforementioned Battlemarcher, I really doubt that this perk is really going to make the difference between victory and defeat in your standard pvp. Equipment does, tactics does, etc. etc.
The perk needs some tweaking, I'd agree. But nerfing it completely seems a bit over the line.
The real problem is that you have someone clicking one button for +14/9/14/9 AB, effectively swinging as fast and accurate as TWO level 9 fighters with 18 strength and weapon focus. If the attacks were at 14/9/4 (not a fourth) it would be more fair, although you are still looking at a bard with more power than a fighter, higher saves (+spellcraft class skill), very useful spells, and only missing extra weapon specialization from the feat choices.
Where did you get these numbers?
Looking into it, agree with Nihm.
Either removing or nerfing.
This should be changed so it only grants one extra attack at level 8 now. More changes may be made...
Is the perk meant so it doesn't give any extra attack per round untill level 8?
Yes, I believe it says that somewhere. Without that you open a rather nasty field of multi-class options <_<
It should give one extra attack every 6 levels. I agree entirely that the perk is overpowered with two extra attacks by level 8, but one extra attack is normal, and two extra for a level 12 character would be just fine too.
Think about it: the appeal of the Battlemarch is that it brings a bard's BAB in line with a fighter, including the extra attack for what would be BAB 6+. It doesn't give extra damage, skill bonuses, or save bonuses: it is focused entirely on making a bard like a fighter. And what is so wrong with that?
Each of the bard song perks has a single benefit that applies only to the bard. If you push it back to level 8, then up until level 8 it is no more useful to the bard than the bard's allies. Further, at level 8 the bard already gets an extra attack for its regular BAB.
Ideally, you should allow Bard Song to be dispelled through the regular means, just like a spell. That, to me, is the biggest problem with it, not the extra attacks.
I just thought it was a bit werid that then bards get their second attack per round, they also get the third, that's all.
EDIT: ok i lied. I do feel like the perk is a bit weak compared to bardsong without the extra attacks per round.