I'm still inactive, but I wanted to check in to make sure people understand this new system (http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21529).
Please understand, the GOAL of this system is to allow the playerbase to have unprecedented opportunities of impact on the settlement. From the height of my high-throne I am hearing whispers of discontent about the way this was introduced, this is senseless and confusing to me and the discontented should send an e-mail or whatever.
But basically, the system is a tool for the DM team to track which groups (whether PC faction or DM faction) are actively doing things on behalf of different NPC group demographics and thus deserving of better reputation/support from the NPC demographic groups.
As an example, your character - without the need of any application or DM involvement - can go sign up with Mother Oggla (joining a banner group), who supports an agrarian/Chauntean society. Your character can then do certain things such as: donate gold, perform scripted tasks/quests, etc. to earn the favor of a particular NPC demographic group (gaining the support of NPC citizens, basically). You can recruit other PCs to this cause to help. In addition to scripted things, as you do non-scripted things the DMs can easily adjust the "rep points" (again, it's an OOC tool for us to track player efforts). Over time, as we see a lot of stuff being done by your particular banner group, we will incorporate that.
One major thing this is intended to address, is what (if any) government will have the greatest recognition among the NPCs. The system is more flexible than that though, it can also tell us what factions/pc-factions/groups are simply being more active IG and doing more things to curry more favor which is useful to us as a tool in any number of ways.
This is a beta system, but if people have questions we can try to answer them here. I understand this is something new and may be confusing, but I think if players give it a shot they will like it!
I'm curious to see how it works. I think it is a cool premise. It seems that it will help to encourage PCs to take the initiative on doing things to promote factions/metafactions. This will probably benefit some people.
I have some questions:
Are the points mostly to affect governance and relative importance in the city?
I ask since I noticed that a prominent faction, the Stewards of the Ark, were left off Mort's list. Also the perks listed seem a little more city-power based.
For earning the points it is mentioned you can do scripted actions/quests. Will anything be done to level the playing field so that the point totals aren't dominated by a group of players doing those actions every reset? (ie., powergaming the new system, to be distinguished from having a large, active group)
I think it has the potential to promote interesting interactions while freeing up the DM effort to play around with other stuff that requires more direct attention, or is more fun. It could be cool.
The premise is very interesting, but I already see a major problem.
Some of the banners you need to get from PC members. PCs don't play 24 hours a day, sometimes you can take weeks to find a PC member in game--that makes it very difficult to get the PC a banner.
Personally, I am extremely excited about it. It gives players that have been feeling a lack of direction, that much needed direction and purpose.
My concern however, is how much non-scripted involvement will there be in the system? A lot of people seem to be thinking it's almost entirely a scripted system, with little to no DM tweaking for your other non-scripted actions (RP actions that would garner reputation/favor with one group).
If the DM's plan to be pretty involved in the system, as far as rewarding other actions, it needs to be made obvious fairly quickly so people don't assume they should just spend all their time on the scripted events/quests to get their goals.
From what i understand, this system will mesure faction influence/ liveliness through a scripted system based on certain PC actions. DM will tweek it once in a while according to what they see as well.
First: I thought it already existed in EfU, something that mesured the influence of such and such (DM) faction, and that when a faction supported some guy running in elections, this system helped to determine the popular support the candidate had.
Second: although we players will know the system exists, will there be some kind of visible track (on forum, updated say weekly or something, for example) so that we actually have something mesurable to relate to?
Because, personnaly, if the system exists but is transparent to me, i don't have a visible nor mesurable goal to be interested in other than rp wise. Meaning: it won't change my habits much, because after some time, well the novelty of the existing system will fade into the background of regular faction involvement.
On the contrary, if my faction is last on some kind of forum chart, but only "2 points" away from faction B, then hells, yes, i'm gonna work hard, and that everytime i see my faction is falling behind. It might be OOC knowledge, but there's always that aspect involved in play. It'll make me log with that faction guy, rather than with some other alt i enjoy too. Just like gold, XP on a PC stats sheet, an influence score of the faction would be real nice incentive.
Third, but it was mentioned already: what will be the level of DM tweeking the system? As our God spoke: "dices are only used to make noise behind the .......(translation?)" If this system is to be somekind of PC carrot, but in fact tweeked all the time, then, well...
Fourth: do DMs really need this to pinpoint active PC factions? I know you guys are not omniscient, but active factions are hard to miss, and in regards to your involvement into this module, i'm pretty sure you don't need this tool.
Other than that, it's really great to have something PCs can relate to in terms of influence. I do enjoy mesurable goals, hence my focus on XP and coins, mainly. How many times a player (or even DM) has started something, and it's been dropped for some unknown reason. This system, if visible to players, can be something altogether, so yes, nice!
If extended, it could even go to having sort of faction "character sheets" on forums: nb of people, gold acquired, % of influence over the Zig settlement, % influence over other settlements, etc...
But i'm getting carried away...
And wether this system rocks or sucks, i really admire the effort ou guys put into the module, for our enjoyment. Thanks, really.
Ok, I’m confused, is this flag thing for faction members only or is it for non-faction PC’s trying to earn their way into a faction?:confused:
And either way, making a PC’s actions benefit that faction is going to get weird when they belong to multiple factions and/or especially if they joined one faction to spy on them but in reality are working for some other faction.
This will make player involvement ascend to new heights.
This would have been even more cool if it had been given to the already well-established and major PC factions out there, rather than totally unknown and in members much smaller, and much more unknown, NPC factions (in fact, the only faction I know of that has been at all active in the settlement is the Stygian Armada, and the only other one with any PC members whatsoever is the Fleet). If this is another perk to try and get people into DM factions, I personally think that's the wrong way to go about getting people to join (basically a "Join the dark side, get a free cookie!" notice). But that's just the way it appears to me. I am, as usual, probably wrong.
QuoteAre the points mostly to affect governance and relative importance in the city?
For now, we may include relationship with other tribes, clans, city as we may make the system grow.
QuoteMy concern however, is how much non-scripted involvement will there be in the system?
Scripted actions will be important and fun, but of course, the most impact you can make on a specific group will be through DM actions through creativity and bringing the awesome.
QuoteFirst: I thought it already existed in EfU, something that mesured the influence of such and such (DM) faction, and that when a faction supported some guy running in elections, this system helped to determine the popular support the candidate had.
This was done solely by DMs on paper and not handled by a scripted system.
QuoteSecond: although we players will know the system exists, will there be some kind of visible track (on forum, updated say weekly or something, for example) so that we actually have something mesurable to relate to?
We may include perks for group in good standings in the faction depending on their ranks in the future.
QuoteBecause, personnaly, if the system exists but is transparent to me, i don't have a visible nor mesurable goal to be interested in other than rp wise. Meaning: it won't change my habits much, because after some time, well the novelty of the existing system will fade into the background of regular faction involvement.
On the contrary, if my faction is last on some kind of forum chart, but only "2 points" away from faction B, then hells, yes, i'm gonna work hard, and that everytime i see my faction is falling behind. It might be OOC knowledge, but there's always that aspect involved in play. It'll make me log with that faction guy, rather than with some other alt i enjoy too. Just like gold, XP on a PC stats sheet, an influence score of the faction would be real nice incentive.
We dont want to make it too transparent, but it should be transparent enough.
QuoteThird, but it was mentioned already: what will be the level of DM tweeking the system? As our God spoke: "dices are only used to make noise behind the .......(translation?)" If this system is to be somekind of PC carrot, but in fact tweeked all the time, then, well...
We'll be moderating it, yes. But I assure you that time wouldn't have been wasted on the scripts if it was going to be nothing but a carrot.
QuoteFourth: do DMs really need this to pinpoint active PC factions? I know you guys are not omniscient, but active factions are hard to miss, and in regards to your involvement into this module, i'm pretty sure you don't need this tool.
Maybe to you, they seem present. When I'm In-Game, I try to: Run a quest, run a plot, interact with some PCs, reward some cool PCs with personalized quest or personalized encounter. Which means that I dont spend a lot of time following these little meetings in the corner. And this has been also to give something for people in DM-less times or in DM-less timezone something to aspire to, or to try and make an impact. Something to built on and something to do that go beyond grinding quests.
QuoteOk, I’m confused, is this flag thing for faction members only or is it for non-faction PC’s trying to earn their way into a faction?
No, they aren't factions. They are a term that we referred to as a "Banner", if you character wishes to become a representative of a specific philosophy or way of governing. They are, in part, independent but working for a banner that is also a DM-faction could certainly be seen as a good way to gain their attention.
QuoteThis would have been even more cool if it had been given to the already well-established and major PC factions out there, rather than totally unknown and in members much smaller, and much more unknown, NPC factions (in fact, the only faction I know of that has been at all active in the settlement is the Stygian Armada, and the only other one with any PC members whatsoever is the Fleet). If this is another perk to try and get people into DM factions, I personally think that's the wrong way to go about getting people to join (basically a "Join the dark side, get a free cookie!" notice). But that's just the way it appears to me. I am, as usual, probably wrong.
An attempt at the best of both world, the banner can become or be PC faction if a DM set you up. The NPCs that were introduced yesterday, each, represent a specific philosophy or way of governing that we included to give some basic directions to those who had been lacking it and to those who have it, well, you can certainly create your own banner.
It isn't a way to get people to join DM factions as they aren't dm factions for the most part. People can join them In-game at any time, without a dm and without an application.
Is there any problem with being a member of a faction (Dm or player) but supporting the philosophy of someone outside that faction or even a different one.
I ask because my Char Nikki is in the Militia (One of the banner NPC'S is a member as well) but she is supporting the seeker Philosophy? is that liable to be a problem?
QuoteThis would have been even more cool if it had been given to the already well-established and major PC factions out there, rather than totally unknown and in members much smaller, and much more unknown, NPC factions (in fact, the only faction I know of that has been at all active in the settlement is the Stygian Armada, and the only other one with any PC members whatsoever is the Fleet). If this is another perk to try and get people into DM factions, I personally think that's the wrong way to go about getting people to join (basically a "Join the dark side, get a free cookie!" notice). But that's just the way it appears to me. I am, as usual, probably wrong.
The server is extremely new, EVERYTHING is new. These banner groups are being introduced - they will flourish according to the efforts of those players that like them and support them with their PCs. We have done nothing to hurt any PC faction or PC effort, and certainly will set up the flourishing ones as banners as well as we work through the technical issues.
I think there's just confusing right now, we are laying out for you guys a system in which you can work to help your PC group, or join a more NPC'ish group that represents a kind of philosophy or agenda (not necessarily a faction!). We are explaining a major way in which we will determine how successful your PC/group is at earning a positive reputation among the NPC-population.
We are hitting a balance between offering opportunities of supporting interesting, flavorful, NPC-guided philosophies that might rise to prominence OR having your PC group become widely recognized and supported by the NPCs of our settlement.
This just seems exactly the kind of thing that I would think players would like.
QuoteOk, I’m confused, is this flag thing for faction members only or is it for non-faction PC’s trying to earn their way into a faction?
And either way, making a PC’s actions benefit that faction is going to get weird when they belong to multiple factions and/or especially if they joined one faction to spy on them but in reality are working for some other faction.
If your character wishes to publicly support and endorse a particular Banner group/philosophy (which could be a NPC group that is not a faction, OR a NPC group that is also a DM faction, OR a PC-only group, etc.), then you will have them be able to sign up to do this and then do things on behalf of this banner group that helps them win support with NPCs. This system is NOT set up to handle double-agents or such like, so if your PC is a double-agent of some kind you should just avoid doing those things (and it will be obvious) that are scripted to provide credit or whatever. Of course maybe a double agent would just be a spy but still useful as he did things publicly... so whatever! Details like that can be worked out.
Regarding multiple faction loyalties, the system is likewise not (at this time) set up to handle that. Your PC should pretty much decide which banner group at a particular time they wish to promote, and sign up with that one.
I repeat this is a pretty complicated, difficult system we have set up that definitely needs CONSTRUCTIVE suggestions for improvement, but I really do not see how it could be interpreted as some kind of tool for destroying player initiative since quite the opposite is intended.
I'm curious about who holds the banners to the DM factions, such as the Fleet and Armada.
Quote from: Allatum;93544I'm curious about who holds the banners to the DM factions, such as the Fleet and Armada.
You will or members of the faction will. You will have a tool that you can use to select other characters and this will prompt a conversation to them that they have to "Agree" or "Refuse" in order to join your banner.
This, of course, shouldn't be used at blade point. "JOIN OR DIE" makes no sense as it is a completely ooc-tool.
Seeing as I'm playing a character whose long-term goal is to become world-famous, how can I best take advantage of the EFRS to that end? Should I apply for my own banner? Or can I remain independant and work on building points with as many of the other banners as possible?
I'm still not entirely clear on how the system works.
Are we able to view banner points?
About the Faction post which probably originated all this, I have learned a interesting american farmers expression today: "Hope, spring is a turtle."
About being upset and angry, doesn't make sense, bottom line it is a game period. If you are not happy please don't spread it among those who really enjoy and contribute to this "awesomeness".
Think I already said that ;)
Quote from: Thomas_Not_very_wise;93633Are we able to view banner points?
No. Although, we will give feedback and perks may be coded based on the banner's ranking with certain groups.
QuoteSeeing as I'm playing a character whose long-term goal is to become world-famous, how can I best take advantage of the EFRS to that end? Should I apply for my own banner? Or can I remain independant and work on building points with as many of the other banners as possible?
I'm still not entirely clear on how the system works.
This is something else! You join only one banner and become a representative of that banner or philosophy in the eyes of others during specific events. I'd suggest re-reading the post. There is a few concepts that seem ambiguous at first but make sense once you familiarize yourself. For example, banner and demographic group are different.
Banners can be specific, goal-oriented, npc or pc led groups.
Demographic groups are vague, unrepresented NPCs group that populate the area that have self-serving goals (for example, the scholars or researchers of the Ziggurat, the Fishermen, hunters or farmers, etc.)
Quote from: p00d33m;93650About the Faction post which probably originated all this, I have learned a interesting american farmers expression today: "Hope, spring is a turtle."
Er... I think that's, "Hope springs eternal."
lol
Quote from: JackOfSwords;93685Er... I think that's, "Hope springs eternal."
"Could be" but you got the point ;)
Quote from: Mort;93652Banners can be specific, goal-oriented, npc or pc led groups.
Demographic groups are vague, unrepresented NPCs group that populate the area that have self-serving goals (for example, the scholars or researchers of the Ziggurat, the Fishermen, hunters or farmers, etc.)
I think I understand the banner system, but I just want to make an example to see if it helps clarify things for others.
So, for example, I have a character who wishes to support the Banner of the Chauntean Precepts. That character then donates bucketloads of gold into the Fisherman's donation bowl. This would then (hopefully) influence the Fishermen into being sustainable and successful, simultaneously respecting nature and benefiting the flourishing society of the Ziggurat. The Fishermen npc population would in turn (hopefully) support the Chauntean Precepts in other endeavours.
a) does this make sense?
and b) does this sound about right to the DMs?
NO! Why must I read things like this on a Monday...
Can somebody send me a PM with the lowdown? This is just not getting through my skull today.
Quote from: MortJust a few examples of the new scripted tools that will work independetly and without a DM:
- Organize caravans to bring ore shipment Caravan or to guard ore shipment Caravan to the city in order to gain reputation through the system.
- Organize bandit raids or trade embargo in order to prevent Caravan from delivering a particular resource back to the city.
- Control territories of fertile lands or raid resources on behalf of your banner in order to improve your reputation or control over specific groups within the city.
- Indulge in donations to specific groups in order to sway them.
- Do certain scripted quest/event that would improve your relationships with a specific group that may not have XP or Gold reward.
- Establish trade routes with other nations/city on behalf of your banner
- etc. There is no limitations to what we may come up to script that players can engage in without the help of DMs in order to have an impact on the gameworld and all the above have been scripted, but would need to be beta-tested.
DM events or DM-sanctioned Player ideas to improve relationships with certain demographic group will certainly be another way to give flexibility to this massive entreprise.
Can we get one that improves relations for PC's healing injured NPC's? (
I'm still not sure I follow this yet, but is this possible.)
To Chezcaliente.
Yes, that's a part of it except the influence to a particular demographic may not be "as clear cut" as a single profession.
To RIPnogard,
I dont think that is wanted.
Do we have to agree to all the demographic groups philosophys to make a sufficent impact on the group? Or can we join a group that mostly fit our characters perspectives, and suggest changes to the groups ideals to better suit our own?
For example:-
A character may believe that laws and justice are needed but don't think they should be based on a single gods point of view, could they join Eumond's demographic group and suggest this to him in the hopes he takes it to heart?
This sounds really good. It would be nice if inter-faction attitudes could be incorporated as well. Lets say the Cheerful Dead are seen asking a dying sick little boy if they can have his corpse when hes gone, now the other factions should hate them more, including PCs associated with the Cheerful Dead. (I apologize if this was already present and I missed it as I skimmed the post).