Maybe it was intended to be this way but its always felt silly that clerics are always bad ass when it comes to necromancy considering they can cast it multiple times and only get it as a third level spell. While any wizard who wants to animate needs to save up on scrolls supplies/gear while your neighborhood Cleric of (insert god) has no such fear they can just cast it.
I think wizards and sorcs should get the animate dead spell at the third circle if this would be possible to script as an override or something itd be awesome.
No. Plenty of items already. You can use items to animate multiple undead.
EDIT: In order to sound less like a tyrannical DM-
I would be against this because there is a lot already IG for an wanna-be necromancers.
It's called Palemasters.
Wow. Thomas is a tyrranical DM!
Oh wait! Not a DM at all! Phew!
wow let's cry about weak arcane necromancy
Divine Casting is where it's at!
Why don't you just make a damn Cleric necromancer, you cry babies!?
Is it posible to animate more than 1 undead using scrolls/items? of not, the onyl change i would like to have the that one. Allow arcane necros to animate several monsters using items.
Quote from: Drakill Tannan;198126Is it posible to animate more than 1 undead using scrolls/items? of not, the onyl change i would like to have the that one. Allow arcane necros to animate several monsters using items.
Seconded, if not already possible.
... So you all know- Mastery of undeath threw arcane means is exceptionaly hard, As noted in the comment for being a pale master. "Most whom seek mastery over the dead take the divine route" I think thats what it says-
Animating via items doesn't allow more than one unless it is the default animation (zombie).
Quote from: prestonhunt;198119Wow. Thomas is a tyrranical DM!
Oh wait! Not a DM at all! Phew!
Lol.
I actually like this idea. Good suggestion Doc.
Amazing Wizards and Sorcerors who are Necromancers typically get such perks on their gear that they no longer need to worry about casting animate dead.
Non-amazing PCs need love too, sometimes...
Quote from: Nihm;198139Animating via items doesn't allow more than one unless it is the default animation (zombie).
The shambling corspe ain't bad, but i would really love to have 2 animated orcs, as a leve 7 wizard. My only suggestion is to make it posible.
I can't say that I disagree with a single post here (barring that DM-TNVW babble- on everyone's account).
Here's an example. As it stands, being a Necromancer who takes Heal (corpse preservation? good with organic stuff?) and Archeology (living in undead infested ruins, after all) as opposed to being a Transmuter who specializes in Alchemy makes you considerably less capable of creating, improving, and using undead animates for a laundry list of reasons.
While I agree it would be cool for spellcasters to have animate dead as a spell at level three like most clerics, it is true that it states clearly in the palemaster prestige class descritption that arcane necromancy is -much- harder.
That said- I think it would be cool for palemasters to be able to do crazy crazy crazy stuff that clerics could only dream of doing with a corpse.
FOR EXAMPLE: Who played the elder scrolls IV: The Shivering Isles expansion pack? Remember the necromancer lady that could make all sorts of ungodly shit with her arcane studies: Giant frankensteins with different body parts sewn together with runes carved into their skin? Having arcane benefits added to the undead would be awesome.
Perhaps a script could be added for arcane necromancers to etch a single spell into their recently animated corpse, spells that normally you wouldn't be able to add. Ghostly Visage... Shield.. Perhaps even Fireball or something like that- so it blows up when it's killed.
I am in full support of exploding zombies.
there are other necromancy spells besides animate dead, along with summoning themes
Necromancy is raising the dead. Despite what dref says, when someone says necromancer you think of a man controling zombies or skeletons.
Quotethere are other necromancy spells besides animate dead, along with summoning themes
Necromancy isn't a very good school where other spells are concerned considering how easy it is to block all of the spells, and how high the fortitude saves of most enemies are.
There are no Necromancy summoning themes. Though it seems the ghosts probably should be unique to necromancers, they are not ; anyone can choose them as far as I know.
Quote from: Drakill Tannan;198176Necromancy is raising the dead. Despite what dref says, when someone says necromancer you think of a man controling zombies or skeletons.
My cleric would disagree. Oh and so does I-
Necromancy is the study of life and death, and positive and negative energies. Animation is an application of this art, but not the core of it. All math is not Calc.
Until WoTC pussed out in 3rd edition, healing and restoration spells were ALSO necromancy. And the ideaology I follow in game, is that these fields were pioneered by Necromancers, but left largely abandoned in the wake of the animation craze perpetuated by the Man-creature Netherese wizards who didn't understand the true, solemn duty and personal sacrifice of necrosis. Like only an elf would.
I think that arcane magic users should stick to summons other than undead, unless they go for a Palemaster.
It is the realm of the clerics not wizards to mess with death.
I agree. It's fine as it is. It has not been a problem for someone actually putting effort to it to become a necromancer.
Pale Mastery is there to be the different route, and it surely shows it. It's just how it was supposed to be.
Suggestion on the suggestion. Perhaps L4? It would then be the same as in PnP. Accessible without being a high level PC, but clerics still have the edge in actually animating, as they should do. Wizards have the edge in throwing out Neg Rays/Bursts to heal, using Stone Bones, GMW, other stuff, because they're more studious and better at improving creations. Servants of the gods find it easier to break the rules of life and death.
Also, seriously, Nihm? Necromancy's a great school even without Animate, if just for the flexibility in other spells. The spells you lose that are most useful from Divination are Identify and Seeing, which are easy to get pots of. Where it really hurts is if you're paranoid or mage duel a lot, and the lack of Seeing sucks.
I played a Necromancer who never raised one zombie in his entire career. Ray of Enfeeblement is a good snare on PCs that aren't blurred, Casting Fear on a warded and surrounded ally can break the pressure on him. You can definitely break mob Fort saves if you INT buff in quests, but I'd agree that saves on a lot of things are too high, or some have unusual SR or cheesy immunities. A wizard reducing a boss to a paralyzed or gibbering wreck is a chance to shine, not laming a quest. Fear is great, but the biggest problem isn't NWN balace, but an EfU-specific tendency for a lot of Fear save gear to be about.
This is an ancient argument, long dead, animated up from the dead.
At any rate, given a fresh slate I'd probably drop animate dead down for arcane casters but it's either impossible or quite complicated to do. The server is absolutely swimming with animate dead loot, and level 9 isn't that difficult to reach.
The spirits theme is also definitely an option for people who want to roleplay being an Evil Necromancer from level 2. And although true that through reagents anyone can select this theme, I am pretty sure the SF Necro and GSF Necro feats improve it rather than the conj spell focuses, so it is clearly best for necromancers.
I just made a wizard with GSF necro and tested my summon point usage before and after taking the Spirit theme. it doesn't appear to make a difference.
My mistake.
I don't think the problem is that necromancer wizards aren't strong enough; they probably are. But I can imagine it's disappointing not to get to take full use of the awesome custom animation system.
I have no opinion about the spell level one way or the other, since I haven't played a wizard to that high a level here. But I do think it's somewhat futile to make up for the lack of Animate Dead in other ways, because it's specifically the custom animation of corpses that's the coolest part about being a necromancer.
I don't know about the feasibility of lowering the spell level for animate dead. But I do know that anyone, be it cleric, wizard, sorcerer or bard, that go for an undead related theme and put forward an animation agenda that shines, likely will find themselves in possession of other means towards the same end (or more!).
...Talir, I am not really sure that was what you meant, but the idea of bardic necromancers made me think of a Grateful Dead concert held during the Zombie Apocalypse...
Goblin Sapper: I totally agree, but then I am a cranky old diehard from the time where Gygax set forth that healing was necromancy and that Resurrection was just about the ultimate expression of the necromantic art. *grumble grumble*
Quote from: Barehander;198226I don't think the problem is that necromancer wizards aren't strong enough; they probably are. But I can imagine it's disappointing not to get to take full use of the awesome custom animation system.
That's another thing. The animating sistem is among the coolest things on EFU:A, i made a necromancer to animate, not to summon, because summoning-wise there are more intresting themes. The ones you can get throguh the wizardy tome quest,for instance.
Negative energy spells are not very good on most quests, either there are too many enemies or their saves are too storng.
- Ray of enfeeblement is usefull only against strong enemies, wich usually have a high Fort, thus you have to throw 2 or 3 before it does something. Or 5 or 6 on the boss.
- Scare is a joke
- Ghoul touch is rather risky but usually worth it if you can land it on tough enemies, yet... yes! you guessed right, Fort save, you'll have to use it 2 or 3 times before it does something.
- Death armor is only usefull on potions
- Vampiric touch is plain too weak and risky to be of any use
- Contagion is a worse joke than scare
- Enveration is only worth using on bosses, it's risky and even if it hits, -1 saves and AB from rolling a 1 is no big deal, so usually not worth it, plus it's a fort save.
This leaves us with
- Negative energy ray as usefull as magic missile but limited, since undead enemies won't be harmed, OR used to heal animates, but we're talking about animation here.
- Negative energy burst is actually pretty good by giving all enemies -1 AB and damage + a bit of damage, but it is far from being impresive, usualy you'd rather throw a fireball: enemies last half the time and therefore inflict more damage, but it has it's uses.
- Fear is good if your party is protected, because honestly it can only work saving the asses of your party.
That's 3 usable spells on quests. I tried to make a non-evil neromancer that only used neagtive energy once, it's not nice.
Maybe if scare was uncapped and the general fortitude of MNPCs lowered you'd be right, else you're left with 3 spells that might do something, sometimes.
Post somewhat related:
GSF: Necromancy is a hell of a scary feat. Makes me fear for my PC's life to encounter someone who has it. Dreadfully sick spells in Necromancy on almost all levels.
Quote from: The Old Hack;198238...Talir, I am not really sure that was what you meant, but the idea of bardic necromancers made me think of a Grateful Dead concert held during the Zombie Apocalypse...
Goblin Sapper: I totally agree, but then I am a cranky old diehard from the time where Gygax set forth that healing was necromancy and that Resurrection was just about the ultimate expression of the necromantic art. *grumble grumble*
I had a Bardic Necromancer, and he kicked ass. Valorson Volkson, you shall be missed!
Anyone rememember that creeper the Scholar? He was a bard to start out with, wasn't he?
Negative spells are tough, surely you remember orgeribbit and his magic?
Quote from: Divine Intervention;198393Negative spells are tough, surely you remember orgeribbit and his magic?
Hasted enervations for pvp, yeah. Though Ogrebitt was an extreme example.
Also note it was only for PvP, not PvM.
The original suggestion/discussion (lower spell level of Animate Dead for sor/wiz) can only be achieved with hakpaks, as far as I know.
The cleric domains allow for spells to be adquired at lower levels, if you can tweak a class to have any feat, why not add a wizard-only domain that gives animate dead at level 4 and artifically gving it to wizards?
QuoteNegative spells are tough, surely you remember orgeribbit and his magic?
He mostly used spells such as Icestorm, Imp Inviz, Acid Breath and Acid Sheath, actually :P
Quote from: ScottyB;198480The original suggestion/discussion (lower spell level of Animate Dead for sor/wiz) can only be achieved with hakpaks, as far as I know.
Perhaps it can be emulated.
What about through extra feats?
PC Tools?
As in, provide a crafting menu option for level 3 spellslots and above that state turn an appropriate necro spell into animate dead, pick it (IE, Vampiric Touch or Negative energy burst.), and get rid of the scripts upon picking it, and use the animation one.
You're all crazy necromancery is one of the best schools out there and the most fun and powerful wizard I ever played was a necromancer and this was BEFORE all the sweet animation changes. Wizard get amazingly powerful necromancery spells that if used right with some sort of brain, I mean you are a 18-20 int character??, can shine on all quests and pvp and RP!!
So what they have to wait to L9 to get animate undead, I know for a fact if you focused on it you would gain the ability to do it, trust me on this one.
The cleric domain system is unique to clerics and designed to allow clerics to memorize any defined spell (independent of any spell progression tables/class level specifications) at a particular level. Wizards have no equivalent system, and giving them a domain feat will not grant them access to spells. Otherwise a multi-class cleric/wizard would be able to prepare domain spells under either/both of their classes.
Allowing wizards to choose a feat that casts Animate Dead 1/day would be possible, but stand out. It's just weird. It wouldn't consume one of the wizard's spells learned when they level, it wouldn't take up one of their spell slots when they memorize spells (and would be a nightmare to emulate), and it's the only spell-as-feat proposed. Necromancy is unique in that it isn't an opposed school for any spell school, but the other schools (evocation being the other exception) are, and if they were also given spell-as-feat options then they'd be ways to get around school restrictions.
I don't think we should waste our time developing a new subsystem all over one spell; the suggestion is also thematically controversial in that arcane casters are supposed to be worse at manipulating life and death because that's, y'know, the realm of the gods. Only the most powerful wizards begin the "steal" their secrets and their (figurative) thunder. Not everyone agrees with that, but no one's going to put in the work as a side-project if there's a chance they'll be told not to implement it, or upset people who don't like the change in the status quo.
It's possible to script widgets with spell uses that also eat a specific prepared spell. Whether or not you want to do this is another matter, but it's probably the simplest way to emulate custom spells.