And also that you can't view the player list on logon.
At least thats what I think.
Has been working well for ages. Never missed it here. My opinion.
I don't even remember when we changed it.
I do. The only real thing i miss is party chat, wich reduced the OOC comments a lot. But else, it is exactly the same.
That you can't view the player list on logon is silly. It's meant so taht you can't see the PCs levels and therefore you don't metagame it. I don't mind, efusl solves it anyway.
If there is anything about the sistem i'd complain about is the "distance" XP system, wich gives frontliner PCs even more advantages (like they needed more..) than archers, wizards, clerics etc. For no real reason.
The log in list is pointless to hide completely, since there's also the option to just show names but no classes/levels. But then, you can also use EFUSL, so it's pointless to show it at this point, too. But it's like flicking one switch, so I suppose it might be fair to do if there are many people who'd use it.
"shame"
Well, I think the main issue with allowing looking at players from any sort of view is that the DMs don't want you to know when they're logged on. As in, specific DMs.
Quote from: Drakill Tannan;198910I do. The only real thing i miss is party chat, wich reduced the OOC comments a lot. But else, it is exactly the same
it did't reduce it. It just moved it to another location and legitimised it.
QuoteThe log in list is pointless to hide completely, since there's also the option to just show names but no classes/levels.
Since when? We tried to make that work but couldn't figure out how. Either we're missing something or you are mistaken.
We're happy for players to see what characters are IG and see if DMs are IG but hiding classes and levels is excellent.
And despite initial controversy I think practically everyone who actually has played with the no-party system finds it really adds to the game and makes it more fun.
Quote from: Howland;198959Since when? We tried to make that work but couldn't figure out how. Either we're missing something or you are mistaken.
We're happy for players to see what characters are IG and see if DMs are IG but hiding classes and levels is excellent.
There are currently two modes of operation for that extension:
A, hide everything (which we use).
B, show all names, but hide class and level. That sounds great, but it still shows DM names so it falls short. There's an open enhancement request to be able to control that aspect, but it hasn't been done yet.
Plus sneaky assassin's can join your group, and make it very interesting for you, if your not watching the left screen chat window closely!
Leave as is. Does far more for immersion then is gained in the mechanical advantages of a party.
I think I am the one that is mistaken regarding the extension, it seems!
I like the current no-party system, too. I haven't paid much attention to XP, so I don't know what the distance function is, though. The only problems I have is coordinating stealth parties and easy buffing/healing through the portraits, which is the only way I did it before coming to EfU.
The healing bit came as a shock for me as well but now I think it actually adds to the fun and challenge. As to party coordination, yes, it makes it harder, but it can be overcome (and teaches the importance of planning and communication. >.> )
The party system needed removing. There was far more complaints from what I saw, of metagaming locations and the thing of people knowing when their buddies were under attack despite being a whole area away.
It took a while to get used to it but I like it gone.
When the party system and player viewing was removed I was very much "What the HELL!?"
Now, I hardly even notice it, and it adds to even greater excitement and stresses the importance of never leave the party. For the player and character finding yourself all alone in a QA can definately give that, "Oh crap...," feeling, and also if a DM is watching messing with a alone character is often hilarious. I find myself looking at the map hoping to see the old party system icons so I can see where they are in the area sometimes.
No party system makes it more realistic, not oh ok Im coming to help u cuz I see u on my map, no its someone screams help you look around for who did.
Maybe I am just not so much into roleplay as you all seem to be.
It's not about roleplay or anything.
It's just about adaptation. One could miss it when they knew something different. After a while it's just normal and you adapt to the style.
If i remember right, the sistem was removed to allow greater inmersion. That is an advantage for hardcore RPers, many on EFU are, so it sounds like it was a good idea to implement.
Because asides from the XP sistem, the only actual disadvatange of it is not being able to stealth together effectively. Everything else you can addapt to
We all thought it was gonna be a big change when Mort anounced it, many threatened to "quit" even. In the end, after the bugs were solved, nobody minded. You'll get used to it.
There is no distance thing, I am quite certain the DMs have said that it's a matter of you are near the kill and get full exp or you are not close enough and get none, and the range is more than enough for archers and cowards to get the party exp
I still miss the old Party system, but then, I am an old fart, resistant to change. Also, because work might take me away for a few months at a time, and the server changes alot, I get lost real easy on long trecks. And now, it is impossible to get a beer when walking to a distant point because you don't want to get separated from your party. Actually, that is the only part that really matters.
The only thing I miss about the party system is the ease of moving in stealth as a group. If that problem could be addressed I would be so happy I'd probably crap my pants.
Quote from: PlayaCharacter;199020The only thing I miss about the party system is the ease of moving in stealth as a group. If that problem could be addressed I would be so happy I'd probably crap my pants.
Prevents a lot of cheating and makes questing pretty scary. I love it, especially from a DM standpoint.
Now please pick a portal..
Takes some time getting used to, more especiallyfrom people coming from other servers, but in the end it really adds to immersion. Stick with it a while, and soon you won't even notice it.
EFU:A has -many- awesome things about it. Non-Party system is one of them.
QuoteThe only thing I miss about the party system is the ease of moving in stealth as a group. If that problem could be addressed I would be so happy I'd probably crap my pants.
Very easy, stealthy characters just need to unstealth and pause after every transition and re-stealth when the group has gathered. And then move together.
Or place junk items onto the ground to mark where you are passing.
Rouge: They will never see me with my new +5 ms and hide boots "Evil chuckle"
Ranger: I dont see him.. Wait whats that- A line of magicaly appearing junk items?
Quote from: Drakill Tannan;199006If i remember right, the sistem was removed to allow greater inmersion. That is an advantage for hardcore RPers, many on EFU are, so it sounds like it was a good idea to implement.
Now we just need permanent death instead of possible respawns, insta-ban on using // in-game, a required amount of food/water per day, removal of tells, removal of seeing other character's names and we'll be like Armageddon MUCK! Maybe we should remove graphics too, for greater immersion.
Though I guess the no-party system has been working out okay, with the one exception that it makes me get lost 200% of the time as I have to run a small resolution, so all my characters are permanently near-sighted. That, or very clingy so as not to lose sight of the leader. The sacrifices we make!
I think Jasede, even with a touch of irony, actually describes a little what I wanted to come to.
The thing is...if we think we are some kind of ubra roleplayers who never even metagame the least we are starting a discussion that will probably end up removing most of how the game works.
I say roleplaying...sure...but not at the cost of removing vital default systems.
If I continue where Jasede left of let us remove the mini-map, which is clearly metagaming the way you are seeing it. Then that you can use examine on most of the things in game is also naturally metagaming. That you can see your own healthbar is metagming. That you can view the world from a 3:rd person view is naturally also metagaming. I mean who in real life can see their own back and then even jolt around the camera like that to even reveal monsters behinds walls and who knows what else.
The inventory system is not immersive enough. Many items don't have a weight at all and you can easily tuck your greatsword into your invisible backpack.
What I am trying to say is...let us not forget that this is a game and lets not remove vital systems from the game so some can sleep better because they felt they metagamed less.
I mean really...if you now are so good roleplayers...why are you looking at the player list before logging in? Just don't look at it if you are so afraid of metagaming. The decision if to metagame or not is always up to you. Most of the time the one who draws the boundaries on it is also you...so it is not appropriate to discuss this with others.
One thing I hate while playing is players sending tells with "How could you know that...you are clearly metagaming"...so...instead of thinking of their own roleplaying they actually broke to OOC just to inform the other player of that. I have no respect for such players.
Ok. That was a little paranthesis but anyway. We where talking about roleplaying. So lets complicate things.
Let us try to understand why Bioware made the game like it is. Let us say you are a real person now in the game and everything is like in real life. First you have 5 senses, which you don't have in the game. Seeing, hearing, communicating and virtually everything works a hell of a lot faster in real life than in the game. Because in the game you are confined to just what the game engine feeds you. So you are very limited when communcating for example...but thats just for starters.
So..to actually make the game playable some "giveaways" have to be made.
The third person view which was pretty much introduced in Baldur's Gate is a wonderful way of making it easier to see and interact with your fellow players but also to see the world.
PS. To the developers/admins: please don't take me or my suggestions too seriously. I really don't play here so much and we can clearly see that most players not only are happy with the change but they have also gotten used to it.
For me personally the party mode (and player list on logon) is quite important but seeing I am clearly in minority here I will try to leave this subject now.
It is however my right to say this and probably you are also thankful to get my oppinion. DS.
You know, i agreee 90% with what you said. I enjoy EFU as a game, and sometimes get slightly irritated when some people consider it more than a game and begin taking it too serously or suddently are angered by us "Breaking inmersion".
However, they have the right to do so. I enjoy playing efu on window mode and in the meantime i have msn, facebook, a random forum and also send tells. They enjoy playing full screen mode, with the game's music and pressing the "h" key for total inmersion, and.. i'm fine with it! It doesn't bother me (mostly) so why opose it? it's not forcefull.
Now, i know where you're getting at. Indeed i'd hate it to suddently have a food/water system, "realistic" inventory, etc. to make it more real. To me it's a game, to them it might increse fun but will make me miserable. The no-party sistem was meant to reduce metagaiming, yes, but mostly it was to do so in PvP, weather DMs and PLayers admit it or not, a huge amount of the decitions taken here are to "balance" PvP, the party sistem allowed you to know wher your party members where at all times, allwing you to hurry to their rescue like a gallant knight from PvP, as far as i understand. Because else, it didn't do much, one could always press the "H" key anyway.
The thing is, little changed tbh. Stealthing in group is a pain in the ass, since sometimes the PC basses behind a tree stealthed and the rest can't see them again without making a check (Cornersneak bug), so it's not as simple as unstealthing in a transition, wich can also kill you btw if you do. That's about it. Everything else is the same when you analize it, you can easily adapt and you won't even notice. It incresed "inmersioN" and reduced metagaming and doesn't bother me, why complain at all?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
This thread brings back memories.
I don't think anyone wants excessive realism but the no party system makes things more fun. It isn't just about closing down metagaming or issues with PvP (although that is a bonus), but for many players it is just more fun to play this way.
Of course "fun" is subjective and I can understand it might be frustrating for those with horrible computers.
I remember when the party system first turned off and everyone was going crazy. But I think its awesome the only thing it isnt awesome for is sneaks and wizards going out to do reconnaissance/exploration via sneaking/invisibility.
while i don't really care for realism arguments, i think it's pretty good invisible people can't be seen
also, if the lack of a party system has that drastic of an effect on perception of the game, you should question what you spend your time looking at while you play. suddenly the lack of some little pictures and health bars destroys the game for you? lol
I find that needing to bother with party invites is just annoying too.
There's no good answer to the party stealthing thing. Meeting up at transition and dropping 'this way' items is all well and good, but doesn't help if I'm a bit straggled out and then something busts my stealth and I get bushwhacked in the middle of an area by something nasty.
It makes IC sense that a group would reasonably know where eachother were, if they were a group and would be close enough to aid.
That said, relative to the nature of EfU, removal of party system has more benefits than negatives.
I think it makes IC sense that it would be HARD to move together as a group and maintain perfect stealth. How do you know where everyone is without letting your enemies know?
There are always those instances where you begin stealth as a group in each other's line of sight but you then pass by a large rock or something, break line of sight, and never see your party till all Hells break loose...
I think this thread is pretty much done.
If you want to discuss stealth problems please create a new thread.
We don't need ninjas in this thread...
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/92/225080352_a5a4ac1794.jpg)
I don't see it as a slippery slope effect, but whoever wrote that should realize that trees falling on their own, in no way represents humans tinkering with stuff. Must have been some lifelong scholar with no real life experience.
My issue with moving in stealth as a group is purely a meta issue. It just takes too damn long to type out directions, make sure everyone is present and accounted for, etc etc etc. It's a matter of OOC convenience, e.g. I'm not going to attempt it unless it's Friday night and I don't have anywhere important to be in the morning. Every method I've tried is time-consuming as all hell.
The method I have not yet tried, which has the advantage of being totally IC, is using the map pin system to simply tell everyone a destination, and if you don't know the way there, it just sucks for you. This has the added advantage of allowing PvP encounters to have a greater impact: if Joe Stygian searches a lone rogue and finds a map, they are likely to follow it to see where it leads.
It's really not that big of an issue, though. The old party system had many, many more obnoxious features. As was said above, the pros far outweigh the cons.
I could see the party system being implemented again if the mini-map was taken off completely. Also, it'd be pretty neat without a mini-map... you'd actually have to remember how to get somewhere!
Honestly, I play EfU so often without the party system, that it's weird when I actually have one. >_> True say for anyone else? Probably.
I vastly prefer the non-party system for a number of reasons. The changes help increase immersion and cut down chance of metagaming- both purposeful and unconscious. The issue of not being able to see stealthed allies might be hard to get used to, but I personally think you shouldn't necessarily be able to see through someone's semi-magical ability just because you consider yourself friends. As Howland said, it is quite easy to reveal yourself to your allies if you deem it necessary. All in all, I think the difficulties that the changes to the party system might have introduced only ended up making EfU more enjoyable. Or something. LOL NERDS DICKS RACIAL SLURS AHAHA FGTS KRUNTZ OUT
i quest with you incognito and gank you later knowing your exact hp and how many spells/hits should kill you.
Quote from: Relinquish;199741i quest with you incognito and gank you later knowing your exact hp and how many spells/hits should kill you.
That was so lame! I actually started winning PvP once the new party system took effect, and I'm pretty sure this was why.