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This is somewhat like the slavery thread, where overharvesting and killing the plants herbalists and alchemists rely on might seem more of a game than story crime and have a strong ooc expectation of no consequences.
 
I do not refer to a non-ranger or non-druid taking one or two extracts from a plant that is already nearly dead, causing its death, because they have no way of knowing.
 
What I refer to is someone going out to look in all the out of way places they can for those gardens which pcs have planted.  They then find these gardens, which someone has obviously taken pains to put in an out of way place in hopes of hiding them, and completely harvest every last plant extract, killing everything.
 
They do this with the ooc expectation there will be no consequences from angry pcs because after all, it isn't fair to pk someone just for picking plants.
 
I don't refer to being caught in the act, because it is too unlikely anyone would wait near a garden just to catch these people.  But when sleuthing people who sell herbs and then finding out this is how they get them, what is appropriate?

I know this has annoyed the fuck outta me, personally. I've planted a few gardens with a nature pc alt, and I've always returned to find them with zero resources remaining. Some would say it's just a matter of letting them regrow, but when a non druid/ranger happens to stumble along such gardens and cant see how many resources remain-well, boom, you're out a garden. And it's a little counterproductive to get anywhere in herbalism when you need to hike halfway across the world to re-supply.

idk what could be done about it, though. Restrict gardening to nature PC's? Make the number of resources left known to all, so at least one could avoid killing a garden?

It's perfectly fair to PK people for picking your plants, I'd say. There's a reason old people sit on their porches with shotguns, yelling at people to get off their land.

That said-

The idea of PCs banding together to own "Farm" land, in the farmland, of planted reagents/etc that they sell to people is pretty damn cool. (Though would probably still be stolen often)

My non-nature characters who try to pick herbal components always follow this procedure: Start with getting a seed. Then take a couple of extracts. If that kills the plant, plant the seed. If it doesn't, move a bit off and then plant the seed.

As to PKing people who ruin your garden... I'd say go for it. The very LEAST you should feel justified in would be to knock them on their sorry behinds, take all their herbal components away from them and maybe a fine in gold for overharvesting, too. Permaing them might be a bit much unless they are being really annoying.

For the record, I'm playing a nature PC who has been working to protect what few resources seem to be remaining.

Please, for the love of God, do not FD someone because they overharvested from your personal garden. That is absolutely excessive. I'm not a DM of course, but I simply cannot see that is being even slightly tolerable. Beat the hell out of them, threaten their life and limb (or lop one off for abusing nature), or find a unique alternative to dealing with people messing with your crop (maybe something like this? (http://th02.deviantart.net/fs13/300W/f/2007/081/c/7/Mario_vs_Piranha_plant_by_Nrai.jpg)).

Also, an important note to keep in mind, this is part of a passing fad. This issue will die down. But it is also an extremely IG, IC issue and not something that should be handled exclusively out of the game. There is a lot of cool possibilities that are being overlooked because they take IG effort (farming co-op, as mentioned earlier); arguing here (or mere complaining) is much easier. Go forth, find your solutions in the game world.

When I see overharvesting while on my Druid Vhaulder I am pissed. Having tried numerous times to create a small unique garden of rare plants so that people may take as much as they plant.
Any nature character who sees overharvesting should see it as disrupting the natural balance and want to beat them up. A warning the first time but perhaps more serious later.

I did ask a while back about if I'd be allowed to booby-trap gardens on a ranger if I also gave fair warning of danger in the line of an IC note drop but it was disallowed. Perhaps the DMs could reconsider this if only Minor non-Electric traps were used, in order to harm and annoy rather than possibly FD, as traps can't be set to subdual IIRC. I've generally gone for putting gardens in out of the way places and AEing things on top of them :D.

Yes it's an IC issue, but the problem is it can be a hostile action to wreck up someone's garden, but the chances are they will not be about when it's occurring or have any idea who did it. Even if it's an NPC zone, unless someone deciding to just grab what they can informs the DMs beforehand, the NPCs won't know.

As a final note, with large gardens it's very likely a non druid/ranger WILL wreck plants even being careful. This is because it's possible to plant over the limit for the number of plants in an area, as the system only counts grown plants. So say the limit's 20 plants and there are 19 up. Until the 20th plant grows up, you can "seed" as many as you like, but once there are more than the limit grown up, you can't replace dead ones.

It would seem reasonable to let anyone know if there's only one charge left on the plant. You don't need to be a ranger to see that an apple is the last one on the tree. This would help nature PCs as much as those who get this ability. Somehow protected garden/farm areas would be nice too, so that even if you can get in to plunder, you definetely won't do it unknowingly.

I do it Old Hack's way: get one seed, then maybe two produce, and then plant whether the plant dies or not. But all it takes is one inconsiderate or just uninformed player to mess this up for everyone.

It depends on the PC but to me what they are doing is theft, and most people don't like thieves.

If it's theft for you deal with it ic; guess that's what Gippy meant aswell.

On the other hand I could see a ton of reasons for even nature characters to destroy your 'gardens', because 'over-planting' and 'mono-cultures' aren't a tad better than 'over-harvesting'. "Oh look 20 new phoenix pines, looks very balanced to me, lets plant another 20 here!"

Also I would see it as reasonable for a couple of nature characters to have the plan to cut of the supplies of city characters. Nothing wrong with that. Totally ic.

So it all comes up to one thing: Deal with it ic, because that is where your plants are cut down!

Undercover: It's IC and warrants IC dealing with, yes. But you oversimplify it. It's also one aspect of a game. The system is designed to let players plant stuff to harvest. If it doesn't fulfill that function, that's an OOC issue.

In most cases, I find large-scale plant ruining to be a kind of griefing: you take benefit of other players with a thin veil of IC justification, causing them unhappiness. Random FDing of lowbies is also IC, but it's an OOC issue too.

Of course, if you only meant that there shouldn't be any crude OOC rules that prevent believable IC reactions, then I agree. But I bet there could be a solution that both relieved the OOC problems and let RP take its course. (See: flower pot topic in Suggestions or my sketches above.)

Quote from: Random_White_Guy;199544It's perfectly fair to PK people for picking your plants, I'd say. There's a reason old people sit on their porches with shotguns, yelling at people to get off their land.

 
This. Druids who don't protect their gardens are wimps IMO.
 
Of course, it might be a bit more difficult to ascertain whodunnit.

There is currently a way for -anyone- to b able to know if harvesting a plant will kill it. You need only invest in the appropriate skill in order to do such.

Also to those who are attempting to plant gardens and are having them raided, perhaps you should consider alternative means of acquiring what you need. There are a number of nature oriented characters out ther who would likely help, just as there are likely those who might try to hinder the rampant planting done by overzealous alchemists and herbalists.

Theres this talk about ooc considerations but it works both ways. Often I see bizarre situations like coconut palms up in the mountains where normall you would find other trees. Is it that big of a deal? Not really, but at the same time a little attention to detail wouldt hurt.

Point is, there are a number of ways that this can be dealt with. This exact issue was raised when gardening first went in. Just have to be a bit creative and maybe, just maybe, try to involve some others in what you are doing. (no to say that you aren't involving others, but always a food goal to have in mind)

I don't really think this is an OOC issue.  Yes it's annoying but PC's may be jerks IC towards nature.  I sure know I went around smashing up some plants and terroring natures animals on my stygian for a good reason.  If someone picks your garden, deal with them.  Punish them IC.

DI, it's not possible to punish them IC, because the chances of them actually being in someone's plot at the same time as the planter are very small indeed so you can't track them. And sitting in the patch with a loaded shotgun, by which I mean "Stealthed buffed bear companion" all day is dull. What I think would be better is if taking the last didn't kill a plant, and thus plant destruction would only be malicious or to clear room for new plants. Then you can tell someone's trolling you and work on stopping them, as it would likely be an enemy.

The trouble is that there's no risk involved in over-harvesting. If you want to be an opportunist jerk IC and grab every patch you find, you can do it, and there's nothing lost on your behalf. However, if for example harvesting the last item on a plant would be harmful or annoying to the harvester, people would have to take more care. For example "You pick the last fruit carelessly, and as you snap it off, a large splinter lodges in your thumb. Nasty, that could get infected." 1d4 dmg, save vs 1 STR drain  (you hurt your hand, can't fight as well, or carry as much). Or "You uproot the plant with your clumsy picking, causing toxic sap to spray into your eyes." Poison save vs Blindness for a bunch of rounds.

@Conan
What skill? Wilderness Survival? Herbalism? Spot? That's not exactly a spoiler to point out, it's more stuff everyone should know if they want to play a herbalist.

It would be both ridiculous and awesome if druids and rangers could plant special plants that look like a normal plant but burst into a monster if you try to harvest from it.

One problem is a lot of people seem to think its better to pick every seed/byproduct of a plant but one and then leave. That means the next person who picks from that plant will kill it. Myself, I try to pick at most 1 seed and 2 products, then like Old said, plant the seed if that kills the plant or in some cases even if it does not. Often times though if its not someones garden I will take just seeds from the plant. Then while wandering if I come across a small collection of plants, possibly someones garden, I'll toss a few extra different plants in. Preferably ones that are used alot like woad just to spread out the number of them.

I endorse the idea of plots of growing areas in rented guild houses/rooms.

Rangers could lay traps to protect their gardens. Make intruders think twice.

Invest in the EFUSS skill Farming.

With farming a Ranger can become as skilled/knowledgeable as a Druid over time. Other classes can become as skilled/knowledgeable as a Ranger over time.

Whether or not that is spoilerish is not really for me decide.

I still believe people should consider IC alternatives some more before attempting to resort to addressing the issue in an OOC fashion, though I feel it appropriate to point out to anyone who overharvests or destroys plants with no IC purpose.

Instead of trying to circumvent the system by having the plants tucked away in a guild house, continue to consider the alternatives. Find ways to identify the plant status yourself, or hire someone knowledgeable to either gather for you or show you the tricks of the trade.

Who knows, someone else might have an even better spot for a garden than you had for yours before it was wiped out. I feel as if the "Secrecy" of herbalism and alchemy is driving people to attempt to hoard ALL information for themselves, and they feel that their progress and efforts are being bogged down.

Work with other people.

I think we should merely give PCs IC ways to protect the gardens. Some ideas that come to mind:

• Scripted NPC guards you can hire to guard a location. You come up to the NPC, pay him and he follows you as a henchman untill you speak with him and tell him "Guard this palce", afterwards a tent placable appears tehre and the NPC remains there persitently, even after resets, it will first warn with text (ie: "This area is off limits, don't come any closer!") but also attack PCs that come close to him. The more you pay, the more RL hours he remains to guard the palce, aftewards he disapears. Hire two or three, and a garden is well protected.

• Druids and Rangers could have a special script to make AEd animals stay in a single spot and guard it against other PCs. I want to see people heading to a garden guarded by 2 sabre tigers.

• Wizards could have some way to permanently summon a creature that sits in the place it was summoned untill another PC gets too close, in wich case it attacks the PC, therefore allowing spellcasters to guard locations like gardens.

Etc. This make speople be able to protect their gardens, this the random loneler looter won't have it so east to kill all the plants.

This thread is lol.  Do all the folks concerned with their plants have no concept of just doing something IC?  Sure its hard to catch someone in the act of killing your plants.  It's also hard to lay a trap to get that one PC who's been foiling all your evil machinations for so long.  Make an effort.  Be creative.  Sheesh.

Quote from: ExileStrife;199634It would be both ridiculous and awesome if druids and rangers could plant special plants that look like a normal plant but burst into a monster if you try to harvest from it.

I don't think this is THAT ridiculous.  There are already summon items (and maybe themes?) that summon deadly plant creatures.  It's not a big leap to disguised trap plants from there...

But yeah, the problem isn't that people can't find neat places to plant stuff or that people don't get together to work on neat things.

The problem is that EfU_JerkFaec is happy to run around and demolish people's gardens.  And that players simply do not have the means to properly police their gardens as people may have in a non-gameworld.

But I don't think we're trying to find all the 'answers' here.  I think the big question is 'Can Bubba Druid lay the smack down on garden poachers?'

I think the answer is yes.

Some PCs might hate nature. I had a gnome that followed Urdlen who often ran around smashing plants and trees.  Deal with it ICly.

These posters are lol.

"Some people hate portal rats. They might run around FDing newbies outside the beetle tower and kobold hill. Deal with it IC."

Stupid conduct is stupid, whether it's IC or not. In fact, almost every argument that says "It's just IC" is wrong, because it's never just IC. It's always also OOC when it comes to a game. This is not improvisational theatre, this is not literature, this is first and foremost a game.

I wouldn't worry about people's ability to stay IC just because they don't want to guard a plot of virtual flowers all day. I'd instead worry about the mental health of anyone who does.

I don't understand why every discussion boils down to "lol pussy u cant rp" or the assumption that someone has a personal gain at stake when they have an opinion you disagree with. I for one have never had a garden, but it still seems non-ideal that you can ruin someone's work they've used real time and effort on just because you feel like it. There's always a story excuse for anything. That shouldn't be the criteria by which you judge. Instead, you should ask if doing it actively advances any new stories. If you left clues behind as to who wrecked the garden, hoping that there will be a story consequence from the action, that would be one thing. If you mindlessly bashed every plant you come across because "your PC hates flowers", that's just weak sauce.

I don't see why anyone would object to some means that might decrease unintentional/inconsiderate destruction but nonetheless allow IC vandalism. I don't think anyone has suggested anything that would prevent people from ruining plants with good IC reason and an OOC motivation to advance a story.

Honestly I doubt anyone runs around killing gardens right now. The thing is just the herbalism- and alchemy-system is brand new and everyone and his dog run around picking a leaf here and a leaf there; this sums up and even a healthy plant will be overharvested after a long server run.
Do believe me or not, but give it time and your gardens will blossom again. There have been plenty of plants before the new system (and when I say plenty I mean plenty), even when the old sytem was still cool, though not as cool as the new and shiny one, which everyone wants to try out. You get the point.

All I wanted to state with my previous post is that those people who might kill gardens likely always have proper ic reasons. This counts for both city and wilds characters. Sorry, for those who wanted to misunderstand me.

And comparing FDing a low lvl to cutting down a garden is just ridicilous. Not that I wanted or needed to excuse for anyone, but it just doesn't fit. When you FD someone you end his character permanently, when you cut down his garden you might infact force him to go out of his way and hire someone to either guard the garden (not by standing there, but looking at it from time to time, mind you) or find someone to supply him with the plants he needs, instead of running invisible to his mono-culture of three or four different plants.

Quote from: ExileStrifeIt would be both ridiculous and awesome if druids and rangers could plant special plants that look like a normal plant but burst into a monster if you try to harvest from it.

Please, please, please make it so! This would be awesome!

The over harvesting, I can blame a part of myself for this because I would only have time to harvest herbs and do a few quests when I logged on. I did notice that some of my secret gardens were disappearing faster after some time though. Also, yes everyone and their freakin dog is playing with the new herbalism and alchemy system, which I think is awesome. I've used Kahuu to definately promote the system, and have been ICly willing to share knowledge.

I don't really support PKing a character for killing a garden. I would definately promote intimidation by removing hair, teeth, fingers, or other body parts, and RPing that you are cursing the individual. Try making the PC paranoid, fearful, terrorize the PC with animals trying to kill him, or illusions. Things that encourage PCs to RP. Granted there is always going to be the head hunting parties after being violated by wildwalkers, but it is what it is.

All I know is that I digressed enough to stop writing here.

must set up ballistae at the gardens and fire on anything that moves.

also must plant gardens in areas that take 30 minutes to walk to from the zig.

Quote from: EfUA_undercover;199721And comparing FDing a low lvl to cutting down a garden is just ridicilous. Not that I wanted or needed to excuse for anyone, but it just doesn't fit. When you FD someone you end his character permanently, when you cut down his garden you might infact force him to go out of his way and hire someone to either guard the garden (not by standing there, but looking at it from time to time, mind you) or find someone to supply him with the plants he needs, instead of running invisible to his mono-culture of three or four different plants.

The point of the comparison isn't that they're the same. The point is: anything and everything can be justified by claiming "it's IC, deal with it". So it's not enough to dismiss a topic by saying it's IC. Even if it's IC, there's no reason to rebuke perfectly good ideas that may make the system better. And if there is reason, it has to be better than "it's IC, deal with it."

But yeah, you are probably right for the most part. I wouldn't know if there's a big problem. But even if it's fine now, it can always be better.

My biggest issue is that the first reaction I see to the problem is an OOC thread. Of course, I may be wrong on that as I'm not omniscient.

my PC planted several gardens to later see them picked apart. Yes it sucks IC and OOC (I planted over a hundred plants >.< ), but I think it gives new things to RP with in times of such plant shortages. Also changed the approach of my PC in the planning of new gardens.

destroying plants by a PC may infact be IC.  Sorry you cannot grasp that some players might actually do things ICly for a reason not just to spite people as this is an RP server.

We are talking about plants here. Who cares if a few of them dies. If you leave a set of armour on the ground you do not expect it to be there when you get back, why are plants any different?

Because they take time and effort to grow. And because "I don't like flowers *fireballs them*" is akin to Pkinling some random PC because "I don't like halflings" and making the player loose hours of work without ripping any enjoyment out of it.

EDIT: You can kill any PC with a good IC reason. Killing plants should get the same criteria. "I hate flowers" is NOT a good reason.

This is not Crops & Flowers server. If plants mean so much to you, show it IG and involve others about it.

Put up signs saying 'no trespassing' then investigate ICly who's destroying your gardens. Find who are the alchemist's suppliers. Beat the hell out of people destroying your crops. Pot elves. Collect and donate to Chauntean priests or whoever you pray. Don't tell colony enemies that "plants are sooo useful, i hope no one destroys them". Whatever.

There's also the fact that the wild is full of plants, IC. If you're so insistent on the fallacy that everything is purely IC, you should go through the same effort to destroy static placeables and those flowers we know are there IC even if they're not represented visually by the game engine. Ymph is full of forest and underbush; if you take the strictly IC route, you should attack static placeables with fireballs just as you would PC-planted herbs. (Obvious, monocultural gardens/farms are an exception to this, of course.) And if you don't do this because it's too much work IC, you might very well choose to destroy something else IC than those few placeables you know to also serve a game purpose.

The point is: it may be IC that you hate plants, and it may be an important tool in advancing the story. That's what matters the most, after all: a story that is enjoyable. However, 9 times out of 10, you can achieve the same story purpose with a few select actions rather than going to unnecessary lengths that cause annoyance to another player. I'd be curious to see what kind of a story requires you to burn down every persistent plant you see, instead of destroying a select few locally and leaving marks and hints of the destruction behind. Maybe even making a forum post about it. If you're the only one who ever finds out you had a good IC reason to do something, that reason is moot: it doesn't advance the story. Similarly, exaggeration may also be IC but if it doesn't affect the course of the story, it's pointless. Staying 100% IC should never be your top priority: facilitating an exciting story/game environment is more important, and it means reflecting on the proper relationship of IC and OOC concerns.

Nobody thinks it can't be IC. But it's not always IC, which is the problem. All it takes is one idiot to ruin the fun for everyone. If you do it right and tastefully, good for you. You're obviously not the target audience of this topic.

I don't even know if there is a real problem, but the attitudes in this topic and the fallacious arguments irk me. My point is:  Don't pretend everything is as black and white as you make it out to be; you know very well it isn't.


To comment on the post above: I disagree with the general philosophy here that everything has to be so damn complex and cool RP. It's important to show effort and dedication when it comes to key points of your character. You do this selectively. Secondary things shouldn't become a chore, and frankly if you spend several hours daily achieving IC goals, I personally think you might want to get other hobbies. I want to log on every now and then and get into the swing of the game without having to stay online for hours. I don't expect anyone else to conform to this view and they're free to make as much of an effort as they want, but I also expect not to have mundane chores forced down my throat when I'm not interested in them. We're not a Crops & Flowers server, by LPFF's concession, so spending your limited game time protecting a garden shouldn't be expected.

There are some pretty hardcore players here, and I know the DM team wants to see memorable IC conflict more than anything. But maybe some players want to casually enjoy aspects of the server that aren't necessarily their primary focus (like herbalism/gardening, which would take all your time if you really got into it). I don't see why that's wrong.

there is a game for you on facebook called farmville, this is very much an IC issue i think it's funny that people feel so passionate about OOCly...  LPFF basically hit the nail on the head people!

@Barehander: While i certainly don't enjoy players having their fun spoiled in any way, EFUA is just not a place where you can expect to plant a garden and expect to ripe the fruits of it just by doing nothing more than planting.

It's not about complexity or "cool rp", it's about playing with or against others, not strolling the isle alone, planting, strolling alone, collecting.

This is true for people questing, planting, skinning, praying, whatever. To be blunt: if you enjoy dedicating time to your pc's rp by doing solo stuff, including planting, it's great, but it's not efua's main focus.

Planting spots are rare on purpose: because it creates conflict over them (and because of lag). Hence the replies to this thread: deal with it ICly.

Now certainly people who log on more often have a definite advantage over those who can only spend so much time on the game, but that's the way it is.

Putrid_plum: You basically missed my entire point, which was that not everyone necessarily wants to spend their time playing farm (the suggested solution to the issue, spending time and effort in protecting your plot).

But LPFF did hit the nail on the head especially with the last post, I agree. I just don't agree with the basic idea, intentionally creating conflict and competition over, well, farms. My personal feeling is that EfU takes this conflict doctrine a bit far sometimes. But the crux of the issue is summarised in LPFF's last paragraph: it's about time, and how much of it you're willing to spend. That's the way it is, but it doesn't necessarily have to be (at least to such extent). But that's an ideological call, I guess, and not the topic here.

I'm not sure where the soloing bit comes in, though, because I'm not necessarily in favor of that. Maybe that's because I don't quite understand what the suggested solutions practically are: people mention teaming up, but what do you mean? The people you team up with are probably people of your own timezone, and even if you managed to cover all time zones I doubt you had a group of players willing to watch over a garden 24/7 or whatever. I have no idea how you could begin to investigate who destroyed your garden and beat up the culprit, because the incident is rarely part of any greater plot. DMs probably have no idea (not to mention the difficulty of catching one on EfU in the first place) and it's not like the random overharvester is making a forum post with hints. I don't even know what effect donating to Chaunteans could have in this context. And what happens if the culprit is Australian or West Coast American? No way an Euro player is ever going to catch him online.

Basically: the default reply seems to be "deal with it IC" but not one of the suggestions seems very viable outside a few specific cases. That is, unless you happen to spend your life online and protecting your garden is the most important focus of your PC.


Anyhow, I disagree with the general ideology and I think I've stated why clearly enough. Just wanted to say LPFF's post is good and spot-on, I just don't draw the same conclusions. I'll leave it at that, I guess!

I will point out one major reason people will destroy plants IC.  Supply.  If you destroy plants you cut off the supply for alchemy and herbalism.  "Oh those druids are manufacturing potions and bombs from plants? Let's go take out the source".  It's a common tactic.  Or perhaps you are a merchant.  "People want plants for alchemy?  If I destroy a load then I can raise my prices on them and control the market".  It's an IC problem, I suggest people who do it deliberately make it clear they are doing it through a ruins litter post maybe?  And people who are against it should put the work in IG to keep it safe.

Plants are really not that important.

I know at least two places you can't get to without being able to cast a druid spell or have an item that is only used by druids and both places you can plant. Both places non-druids couldn't get to without being with a druid. I can also say that I propably know less than half of what's out there so there are probably other places like this...
 
Find them, plant there...
 
P.S., I wonder if Olo's secrete garden is still growing?... :p

Do we actually know for sure that this is being done by PCs? Is it not possible that this is a bug?

Here's the thing though. Conflict does not universally equal good or interesting.  When you can strike back at an enemy or plot to be a step ahead, or avoid their attacks, then it's interesting. When you have to rely on total luck, waiting for hours or large amounts of DM help to retaliate, it's dull.
Plant smashing or greedy harvesting, especially near NPCs in wilds camps, is like leaving notes saying 'Anty Trenada blows goats' around the Ziggurat without a DM around. Effectively zero chance of retribution or prevention, hostile action.
Most players aren't going to go to all the trouble of sucking up to NPCs for weeks in the hope of Chauntean Guards or something, they have better things to do. Nor would any player enjoy spending all his time in a cabbage patch with See Invis cast, hoping the unknown vandal is logged in and coming.

I think having this open conflict over the plants is good because it gets more people out and exploring the module.  I know on my wilderness PC I found a ton of new areas I would not otherwise have simply because I was looking for gardens to pilfer.

The plants are just a cool bonus thing for wilderness folks to use to grow their own ingredients.  I tend to agree with Disco's sentiment that it's really not a huge deal.

Growing plants in the wilderness doesn't add to interesting roleplaying.  Neither does stealing someone's.

But fighting over planting spots and catching thieves and breaking their limbs certainly does!  Why not set some traps around your hidden garden just in case?

Quote from: 12 Hatch;200341Why not set some traps around your hidden garden just in case?

Because, if we are to believe a post on the first page, DMs have prohibited this. And I can't say I'd be happy to walk into a deadly trap that FDed my PC just because I happened to pass through an area unawares with 0 Search. I guess it would be solved with a No Trespassing -sign, though.

I agree with your post, though. As long as the conflict is something you can get into without an unreasonable OOC effort.

If someone is going around deliberately trying to destroy gardens it would probably be polite to use the forums to somehow indicate the nature of the destruction (even if through an anonymous account). But mostly I suspect it's just some bugginess in the plant system + random players who aren't going to read this thread anyway.

A life-like realistic botanical system complete with socio-cultural mores with regard to overharvesting and plant dispersal is essential to my immersion. :/

From what I have seen, it is basically impossible to raise a garden anywhere near the zig.

I often play wizards who are after resources and I often see gardens or plants harvest them all until all the plants die so I can get all the resources.   I have on numerouse times Overharvasted your gardens. Defend your damn garden when my wizard sees a bunch of herbs/resources he/she will take them. If I was in the middle of nowhere and saw an Apple/fruit tree unguarded/unclaimed you can bet id take all the fruit.

I will boldly and proudly admit to over harvesting.

WE DID NOT CHOOSE THIS BATTLE, BUT NEITHER SHALL WE SHUN IT.
 
DEATH TO THE SALAD EAATTEERSS!
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYRml8zZ8BU

QuoteI will boldly and proudly admit to over harvesting.

 
The question isn't whether people do this, but what sort of reaction is acceptable.  Icly, my character would likely want to murdur you and fertilize that garden with your corpse.

Quote from: Dr Dragon;200475Defend your damn garden when my wizard sees a bunch of herbs/resources he/she will take them...

I will boldly and proudly admit to over harvesting.

You cannot defend them. You can't be expected to sit there with seeing up 24 hours a day in the hope that the jerk PC is going to turn up when you're ready to gank them. You can't booby trap the gardens unless the DMs change their ruling on that (can't find the question, I made it a year or more ago). That leaves using your own allied arcanist to cast See Invis on an AEd beastie and hoping it drives off a poacher in the few minutes of seeing it has.

Doc, if I had a way to mug your PCs without ever laying a hand on them, you'd get pissed. Being able to ruin a garden without risk is that. Secondly, unless you have some kind of 11 INT 8 WIS wizard, you should be smart enough to realise that you're going to want plants another time too.

Oh, and I suggest we boldly and proudly start admitting to mugging DRD's new PCs on L9s. It's about the same level of unpreventable conflict.

It doesn't seem like this is worth getting upset over, honestly!

DRD has a fair point that it's a legitimate, IC action.  Similarly, you're right, Phil: functionally, defending gardens is nearly impossible.

But at the end of the day, one side or the other just gets some nice bonus plant ingredients.  That's it.  And you can easily stockpile plenty of seeds to rebuild your gardens.  

I think the randomly spawning plants for the gathering quest provide a nice, consistent alternative for nature PCs in the event that their gardens are ruined and have to be replanted.

Uhh..

It doesn't matter whether the plants themselves are a big deal. The point is, someone's being a d... I mean, someone has a different idea of "fair" and "legitimate." Also known as "Somebody's wrong on the Internet" which is unforgiveable.

I think the arguments against overharvesting have been made, so unless the DMs have a stance to take there's not much else to do than add these players to your "Don't play with" list, sadly. Well, if we want to have spine, at least. I'm not sure I'll care that much tomorrow. >_>

I honestly do feel that it's IC, in many ways. There are many of those places that normal city walkers don't get to or visit often.

And if some city guys wanna keep garden, protect it or make something out of it. The pickers just need to be prepared that one day they may get mugged or even killed. Folks have killed for less.

It's unbelieveably silly to get butthurt about that. Or to blame anyone for it.

If you would just spend the time writing here to find or plant a new garden your problem might have been solved already.

EDIT: That was too agresive, nvm. Paha Poika, read the posts before yours, it isn't posible to defend the gardens, so it can't be dealt with IC.

Tried playing a druid once.  Thought I would farm, and sell reagents to PC's of the zig.  Got a couple of contracts that I couldn't fill because every time I checked my plants, they were gone.  Gets pretty damn frustrating after a time.
  The only way I can see the farming system working, and I don't know that this is possible, is to make harvesting druid/ ranger/ farming only.  A raid on the farm would only happen under DM supervision, much like pvp.
  Also, to note, this was before the new systems were put in place.  I wouldn't even think of trying to plant anything now unless I was paralyzed from the waist down and could do nothing but sit in front of a computer for 20 hours a day, and had someone else guard for the other four hours.

Quote from: DollarPhil;200493

Doc, if I had a way to mug your PCs without ever laying a hand on them, you'd get pissed. Being able to ruin a garden without risk is that. Secondly, unless you have some kind of 11 INT 8 WIS wizard, you should be smart enough to realise that you're going to want plants another time too.

.

Actually it is quite possible to Mug and even murder PCS with no PVP skills at all. Hiring assassins, Giving a person spells and demanding a split of the goods mugged. Also I wouldn't be pissed Ive had quite a few chars who were killed simply for a bounty. But then again Im also guilty of doing the same.

People RL seem to find a way to guard land 24/7 So I suggest you find a way IG to pay people enough to take shifts.

The problem is this isn't real life, and people can't be bothered. It's a game afterall, and that's all it is.

My two cents here, however. If you're going to go willfully destroying things that other characters have put work into at least make it into a bit of fun conflict. Make posts, leave clues, whatever. Doing it by charging out invisibly and destroying or over-harvesting, then running off without any real chance of conflict coming from it defeats the whole purpose of "attacking" someone's property.

Do it in a fun way and people will appreciate it for the roleplay it brings. Doing it in ways that you all but assure you won't be caught is frankly rather lame.

I think it's more constructive, then, to come to some kind of a general consensus.  On one hand, non-wilderness folks can't tell when they are going to overharvest or not.  But on the other hand, those who roam the wilderness looking for gardens to ravage are quite aware that they'll do it.

Why not just say, then, that if you are doing large-scale ruining of garden life, you might want to post something mentioning ICly that gardens have been ripped apart and provide some manner of IC clue?

It's just a game, and conflict is always best!  I'd rather be hunted by druids than simply safely chill and harvest peacefully.  I'm fairly sure most players can agree that having enemies is much more entertaining than not having them.

Kabam - problem solved!

Quote from: Dr Dragon;200614Actually it is quite possible to Mug and even murder PCS with no PVP skills at all. Hiring assassins, Giving a person spells and demanding a split of the goods mugged. Also I wouldn't be pissed Ive had quite a few chars who were killed simply for a bounty. But then again Im also guilty of doing the same.

People RL seem to find a way to guard land 24/7 So I suggest you find a way IG to pay people enough to take shifts.

That is ridiculous DRD, no one is going to stay in that garden for one hour to see who comes by and harvests form it, no matter how much gold you give him IG because it is boring. Mind you, even if it took only 100 gold to find a willing person, how much would you need to pay for each person so that whatever hours you ask them are actually worth it? Every day.

Time is actually valuable, and i'm talking RL here, you can invest it in something productive, you can invest it in having fun, or you can watch an avatari sit in a digital garden and bore yourself to death.

I think you're being a jerk, and hiding in the "Deal with it IC" excuse to continue what you do. But consider that it is only fun to you, and completly lame and frustrating for other players.

Quote from: Drakill Tannan;200633That is ridiculous DRD, no one is going to stay in that garden for one hour to see who comes by and harvests form it, no matter how much gold you give him IG because it is boring. Mind you, even if it took only 100 gold to find a willing person, how much would you need to pay for each person so that whatever hours you ask them are actually worth it? Every day.

Time is actually valuable, and i'm talking RL here, you can invest it in something productive, you can invest it in having fun, or you can watch an avatari sit in a digital garden and bore yourself to death.

I think you're being a jerk, and hiding in the "Deal with it IC" excuse to continue what you do. But consider that it is only fun to you, and completely lame and frustrating for other players.

Or you can have nice chats with people in your garden discussing/plotting while guarding it at the same time. You  do not need to  sit there waiting for someone to loot it. I see people stand about the Zig chatting all the time or in the Docks you can easily move those places to your garden and defend it from those sick depraved over harvesters.

Also if someone is stealing from your garden feel free to kill them in fact you can transcribe an IG note and then leave it and have it titled "Steal from the garden and you die."

Those are some IG solutions that are fun and as for "Being a jerk" I at least own up to the fact that I over harvest and am proud of it. This is an IG problem to solve IG. Why is it there is an OOC post about an issue that is iG? I don't see any Public notices or people pissed off at Over harvesting. I just see an ooc thread in general notices.

If people are oocly complaining about a problem they cant solve IG then I feel I reserve the right to demand free loot and free property and stuff like Lordship because I simply do not feel like getting it IG.

This, along with many other things in the game, is something we should look in the manner of 'What would I do in this situation?' If you saw a collection of valuable or rare plants out in the wild, and it looked like it was a garden, is it possible that this, as a garden, is located near to someone's home, as most gardens are? If there are no houses around, yet this garden is well tended, perhaps it's the property of a druid or ranger, in which case, what if said ranger or druid is nearby, near their home (or claimed land)? Certainly not at all out of the ordinary. Therefore, what would be the best course of action? These plants may be rare and valuable, to you or someone else, but what if you're caught stealing them? Perhaps it would be best to leave, or maybe you'll take it anyway, such is up to you and you alone.

Personally, I think there are many ways to prevent this, I'll list a few off the top of my head.
-Hide your garden somewhere that is not often travelled.
-If you're a nature dweller, generally stick around the area you have hidden your garden.
-Plant lots of plants, everywhere, and a wide variety of them, this reduces the odds that someone will have to go hunting down your precious garden to get their plants that they themselves are too lazy, incompetent, or unmotivated enough to plant themselves.
-If you're a druid or ranger, AE a cave bear and stick it next to your garden. Cave bears will solve all problems. Period.

I think that all rangers and druids should be able to tell how much a plant can take before it dies, but I also think that Wilderness Survival and/or Farming should come into effect in this, so that other classes can do so as well, if this isn't already in. By the way, I didn't read through a lot of the other posts, so sorry if I posted up anything that someone else already posted up.

IC issue

Quote from: 12 Hatch;200619I think it's more constructive, then, to come to some kind of a general consensus.  On one hand, non-wilderness folks can't tell when they are going to overharvest or not.  But on the other hand, those who roam the wilderness looking for gardens to ravage are quite aware that they'll do it.

Why not just say, then, that if you are doing large-scale ruining of garden life, you might want to post something mentioning ICly that gardens have been ripped apart and provide some manner of IC clue?

It's just a game, and conflict is always best!  I'd rather be hunted by druids than simply safely chill and harvest peacefully.  I'm fairly sure most players can agree that having enemies is much more entertaining than not having them.

Kabam - problem solved!

If people realized it to make an OOC thread about it... I don't know, perhaps you can realize it IC too?

i think it would be cool if botanist pcs somehow grew persistent giant venus fly traps or other plants that attack trespassers, or something along those lines.