It's been suggested before, but I think it needs to be touched on again. Pure Rogues are one of the toughest classes to play on EFU and have no real bonuses for remaining pure.
I really think that giving them some bonuses at the mid and higher tier of leveling would help out a ton and also prevent them from being the easy mutliclass option that they are.
Some ideas I have are :
Level 5 - 10% movement bonus within indoor and city areas. +2 skill bonus to Open Lock, Disable Trap, Set Trap, Bluff, Persuade, search. . +2 Hide, move silently, spot, and listen bonuses within indoor and city areas. +1 Bonus to UMD
Level 7 - All bonuses increase to +3 total. Slippery Mind feat. Your proficiency with striking vital areas of foes has become well known, and now slightly effects those creatures previously immune. 1d6 bonus damage vs creatures immune to sneak attacks / critical strikes. (Undead, Elementals, Golems)
level 8 - Movement bonus increased to 20%. within indoor and city areas. Rogues cunning 1/day.
level 10 - Skill mastery feat. All bonuses increased to +4. Bonus damage against creatures previously immune to sneak attack increased to 2d6.
The overall idea is to improve pure rogues somewhat and these are simply examples. Debating those isn't the idea here! :)
I like it.
I like it, feels like a dark ranger kinda lol.. Also I think its legit due to the fact that some of the other classes get some redicoulus stuff like barbs.. So this for rouges seems good enough.
Tricky, rogues can be very very scary against the right targets. But we have allot of those wrong targets embedded into the framework that is efu:a. I'd like to see something like this, although this would be an example I would have issues with, if that was the subject of the discussion.
I like it but constructs and undead are meant to be obstacles to rogues! So Im opposed to Sneak attacks against things immune to them.
I could support the +% movement speed but the rest is stupid TBH.
Good constructive post. However, at least you agree that they need a little bit of help! :D
Rogues (and bards, for that matter) on EfU:A need more stealth, more than anything else. Movement speed is good, too.
If we're talking about perks thought the Perk system, I'd like to see a diplomacy perk like Eunuch that doesn't involve having your balls chopped off. If there is some way to replace Sneak Attack the same way you can replace Turn Undead, then some kind of daze on hit (sort of like Stunning Fist, or what Sap was meant to be) would be beyond awesome.
Bards don't need any more perks. Pure rogues do need some love, this was decided long ago, but nothing came out of it. We'll probably discuss it a bit internally and come up with something. Thanks for the reminder.
See, I can do PR.
Thank you!
I do think rogues need some sort of perk. Pure rogue only. I am pretty sure I'd like to see pure rogues get the benefit of stealthy / SFMS/Hide. Too many rogues take these feats meaning that they really have no feat choice at all!
I am disinterested in the bonus damage vs undead etc. I think that has to be changed IG via a shift away from AI that does not allow things to be sneak attacked (flayer slingers, etc) and enemies such as undead and constructs.
I'd be fine with slippery mind as a free perk at a certain level... maybe.
May I suggest a small perk choice, in a way.
Thief, the silver tongue and something else - style.
Think of it as.. Not class, but specialization that really rogues are known to excell at.
Stealthy aspects or something related to that for thieving choice
Diplomacy related bonuses for other
Perhaps trap/search related for one.
Just a though, naturally it may be too close to being a class or professino so to say, and I know those are not wanted necessarily. This could however be one way.
lol this would be insanely overpowered. IMO rogues are powerfull enough. But yes they could use a few rogue themed perks.
Insanely overpowered non-combat bonuses, compared to Barbarians, Rangers, or Clerics with the SR changes to dispel? As I said, the suggestions aren't really the topic here and it's already been said in this post, and previous posts, that they need a little love. They are hardly "fine" when you look at the vast amount of other class changes to defaults, PRCS, and custom classes. Their -best- fit is in a mutli-class built, and if done "properly" you can max your full rogue skills with only a few levels of it while snatching up all those other class perks at the same time!
I think the idea for perks that replace sneak attack to an extent are cool, maybe things to encourage more diplomats and duelists. (amongst pure rogues I mean)
Something I think that is not overpowering for pure rogues, would be giving the Use Poison feat or giving a bonus to more easily applying it, along with maybe making them more accessible, to higher level rogues. Granted I do not really know how the dexterity check to apply poison is done.
Boosted initiative roll at some point would be fair too.
Poison application is a DC 20 reflex save, if I'm not mistaken.
EDIT: I am.
10 + d10 + dexterity modifier vs. poison's apply DC
Yeah, apparently they also only last three rounds. I think it would be cool to make that somewhat longer/easier too anyways. Maybe also as a higher end pure rogue only thing.
On the original post I like movement speed bonus but I think giving away feats and big skill bonuses so easily is kind if OP. Also, PrC's require an app and good reason/ rp to earn the bonuses they don't just get handed over. Rogues do need a boost but there is loads of gear and weapons that combined with these perks would be insane.
What about... a new crafting landscape that is just for pure rogues? Not Herbalism, not Alchemy, but Roguecraft. Sweet rogue only stuff, traps in 1, poisons in 2, X in 3, that uses rogue levels as a way to determine if you can make stuff or not.
Edit: Wrong forum!
Quote from: Gippy;210251Too many rogues take these feats meaning that they really have no feat choice at all!
I want to have your babies for saying that.
How about giving them +1 hide/Move silently for each rogue level as long as they remain pure? They would equal the Ranger stealth in the wilds at level 4, but would also make up for not being able to cast One with the land and camuflage themselves at higher levels.
I also like the idea of making them better when using poison. Is there any way to make poitoned weapons remain poisoned longer when you're a rogue? Perhaps 5 rounds instead of 3.
And while i agree undead and constructs should be an obstacle, consider the amount of undead on the module. I'm all for constructs being 100% a pain in the ass for rogues, but with all the undead arround, i don't think it would be a bad idea to add a few rogue-only items that had damage bonuses against undead. (Good items, i mean)
More use of Pick Pocket would be wonderful, preferably being able to use the skill in some way against PCs using the same rules as you would for PVP, as in if want to make an attempt in an area with NPCs you need a DM present.
I am not very happy with PP usable against player characters but then I come from a server where PP griefing used to be rampant.
As to giving pure rogues some benefits, I would tend to agree. Rogue tends to be the class you take a couple levels in, particularly one level at first level for the ton of extra skill points and level 2 for Evasion. I would not mind seeing someone patient enough to single-class all the way in rogue getting a bit extra.
Duelist, pure rogue only +2 ab +1
1 damage per 3 levels while using 1 handed weapons, replaces sneak attacks.
Thug +1 ab +2 damage per 3 levels while using two handed weapons, replaces sneak attack
I would be for something like +2 hide/ms at level 5, at level 7 maybe something like +20% movement speed indoors.
Maybe add something like intelligence modifier to open lock, umd, etc.
Having just played a pure rogue, I can say that there is very very little that someone else can't do well or better than you.
What they offer than NO one else can is the sneak attack. That's about it.
Now the one thing they can do (sneak attack) that no one else can do, is often useless. So many things are immune to it.
So I would love to see some of the other perks of the rogue bumped up. Make them something people want to play and keep pure.
I somehow think making rogue city-rangers isn't the solution. I would rather have their bonues be universal. (Not dependant on the area)
Having played a pure rogue, the biggest problem they face is their shitty AB. More rogue only items with AB bonuses vs specific enemies, or in general.
What rogues can do that others can't is pick locks and disarm traps, and sneak attack. Sneak attack is largely useless due to their low AB though. And while Trap and Lock breaking is very useful for this server, it's nothing to the degree that it is necessary to survive. Besides, Ooze familiar (which I love don't change it.)
Rogues need some sort of bonus befitting their gadget focused nature. The hide bonuses a ranger can get is mean, maybe a rogue only item that casts Camoflauge, and more rogue specific loot. More gadgets and widgets that befit a rogues tricky and tool oriented nature. Rogues are the gadgeteers of EFU atm, but there's not alot of gadgets to...teer.
Also, giving them some of those rogue specialized feats as bonus feats (because who makes it to lvl 10 as a rogue anyway?) like Slippery Mind or Defensive Roll or Skill Mastery.
Infact if I could suggest,
Lvl 3: Opportunist
Lvl 5: Slippery Mind
Lvl 7: Skill Mastery a
Lvl 9: Defensive Roll
Because lets face it, -everyone- is going to take either Crippling Strike or Improved Evasion if they get to 10. No one -ever- bothers with those other specialist feats, because they're largely useless.
Except on a low level server like this one :D
Perhaps some passive bonus to search/ol/disable trap/set trap as well?
QuoteInfact if I could suggest,
Lvl 3: Opportunist
Lvl 5: Slippery Mind
Lvl 7: Skill Mastery a
Lvl 9: Defensive Roll
Are you serious?
Quote from: athousandyearsofpain;210527Are you serious?
Yes. Are you?
Opportunist is +4 to AoO. Ie, when someone moves in combat and they're within close range, or casts. You more or less have to be right up on someone flanking them for this to be useful. The Mobility feat neutralizes this.
Slippery mind: Potentially OP? Maybe, but consider how low a rogues will saves are anyway - base 3 at lvl 10. Replace it with something else if you don't like it.
Skill mastery: Wolol, really? Is this Imba? Really? Take 20 on OL during combat, OoOo. Gonna gank some folks with that.
Defensive Roll: This ones the real powerful one, which is why it's at lvl 9.
If the character is struck by a potentially lethal blow, he makes a reflex (//%22http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Reflex%22) saving throw (//%22http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Saving_throw%22) (DC (//%22http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Difficulty_class%22) = damage dealt). If successful, he takes only half damage from the blow.
At lvl 9 a rogues base reflex save is 6. Add dex modifier to that, lets be generous and say 4. = 10. Of course there are reflext save items, so lets assume he has at least +4 to reflex from items. 14 if not higher. On success you only take half damage. That doesn't garuntee it'll save you. That doesn't garuntee you can get away. Mostly it's a good save for fireballs or other high dmg AOE spells that eat rogues for meat. If a fighter gets on a rogue in melee and they can't get away, they're dead, story end of. Defensive Roll is a good escape method/Get out of jail free card, especially when combined with evasion, makes rogues very slippery (as they should be) to hit with AoE spells.
Course, you can't reflex save magic missle spam.
I dont get all this. Rogues has ALOT ALOT ALOT! Of rogue only items. The rogue in itself is also a very good class. Sneak attack yes sir! ( and infact when flanking [wich you have to do to sneakattack] you will get the same ab as a fighter) Good skills that noone else has on high lvls like open locks (we all hate to leave loot behind) Or disable traps and such. The rogue is fine and it really do not need a boost although a few flavour perks would be nice.
Quote from: Disco;210532I dont get all this. Rogues has ALOT ALOT ALOT! Of rogue only items. The rogue in itself is also a very good class. Sneak attack yes sir! ( and infact when flanking [wich you have to do to sneakattack] you will get the same ab as a fighter) Good skills that noone else has on high lvls like open locks (we all hate to leave loot behind) Or disable traps and such. The rogue is fine and it really do not need a boost although a few flavour perks would be nice.
A rogue in melee flank is just waiting to trigger an AoO and get 1 shotted, what about ranged rogues that Sneak Snipe from behind fighters?
Playing my second pure rogue in a row I don't see that much of a problem here. Some flavour perks would be cool, but a rogue isn't a fighter who can sneak attack, if thats what you want to play then play a fighter and emote that you are stabbing backs.
With flanking and a couple of readily available items a rogue is a worthy addition to many parties in more than one way (traps, locks, dmg output). Of course they aren't needed, but what is needed anyway? Do you need a fighter? No, you don't. Do you need a wizard? No, you don't. What you need most of the time is a plan what you are doing and how you do it.
People who run heads-on into combat with their rogue should just complain less and play a barbarian!
For the record, the DM team is actively considering ways to boost the viability of pure rogues.
x
Nuke
Quote from: EfUA_undercover;210536Do you need a fighter? No, you don't. Do you need a wizard? No, you don't. What you need most of the time is a plan what you are doing and how you do it.
"Do you want a fighter, yes you do, do you want a wizard, yes you do, do you want a rogue? Nah."
I think my above statement sums up the problem with rogues. Some might suggest that this issue can be solved by placing traps. But really traps can be disabled by any class and if I had 10xp everytime I saw some moron/unfortunate with disable trap trip a 20d6 Strong electric (yes "strong" not "deadly") trap I'd be level 40 by now.
So yeah it's nice to see rogue being worked on.
I don't think goblin sapper's idea is OP at all, because on EFU:A Rogues are an unecesary jack of all trades. Think of it this way...
[LIST=1]
- Sneak attack it's awsome, but there are tons, and i mean tons of enemies on the server inmune to sneak attack: Oozes, nightrisers or any of the thousand kinds of undeads on the module, and there are a few constructs here and there. Most of the tough enemies are undead or ooze or something inmune to sneak attack, so while it is cool, it's not too great on the EFU Setting. If you want damage dealing, a fighter with a greatsword is far more effective than ANY rogue.
- A rogue is good because he can easily detect traps and disarm them. Mind you, any PC can disarm any trap, all he needs it's one of the many items with charges of summon creature I usable by anyone. Either that or have a wizard who has the raven familiar
- Rogues can also open locks. However most of the locks are key-specific, wich means mostly there is nothing behind thouse doors. The others can be opened by any PC with lockpicking as a cross skill or a wizard with the ooze familiar. So rogues are far from necesary here.
- Regarding hiding and spotting ability, they are vastly outmatched by the ranger, even in non-wilderness areas due to the unlimited camuflage/one with the land they can cast.
UMD is probably the only really good asset of the rogue, but it is not unique to rogues, bards have it too, only that in addition, they can tank, support and usually do what most rogues can, in addition to the bardsong.
Regarding GoblinSapper's bonus feat suggestons, i have to agree. In all my NWN playing years i never even bothered considering any other bonus feats other than cripling strike or improved evasion as a level 10 and 13 rogue.
- Oportunist might give you a huge advantage, but only might, and it's completly random weather you can count on it or not. You can't calculate it within your battleplan, so it's very meh.
- Slippery mind it's moderatly good. But everyone has PfE up all the time anyway, won't change too much. Besides if the rogue has a low save, he is likely to save both rolls.
- Skill mastery is like, a joke. Who goes on disarming traps in the middle of the combat? If it does anything, it's just saving you a few seconds of waiting after the battle ends.
- Defensive Roll sucks. It may come extremly handy in 5% of the scenarios, but you can't count on it.
So even with all these feats, a rogue would be far form OP. I'd say buffs should be given in addition to this. For example, my proposed +1 hide/ move silently per level on pure rogues.
Additoanlly, and now that i think of it, why not allow the craft trap skill to be used normally?
Quote from: GoblinSapper;210530...
On success you only take half damage. That doesn't garuntee it'll save you...
Actually, if I remember right, evasion makes it so that all reflex saves you meet have you take no damage, and you only take half damage on a failure. Very nifty thing, that; used to use it a whole bunch in Ice Wind Dale 2 - just sneak attack with a rogue, and throw a fire ball into the mess.
Quote from: Bearic;210574Actually, if I remember right, evasion makes it so that all reflex saves you meet have you take no damage, and you only take half damage on a failure. Very nifty thing, that; used to use it a whole bunch in Ice Wind Dale 2 - just sneak attack with a rogue, and throw a fire ball into the mess.
I'm not sure evasion works in conjunction with defensive roll. Also evasion reduces the damage on a successful roll that would be half damage to no damage. You still take full damage from failing a roll with the evasion feat.
Improved evasion(Not available until level 9) reduces damage of even failed rolls, again I'm not certain it even works with this feat.
But even if it does there are still factors such as:
DC = Damage done, meaning easily 30-80 DC when you eat a crit from the usual suspects.
Does not activate while flat footed, so drinking potions, running etc will disable this feat
Does not recognize on hit effects like darkfire (you still take full/critical damage from them)
Works once per day. But I guess even if it worked more than once per day you'd never save twice.
So yeah not that amazing.
I don't like the idea of movement speed bonus, simply because so many classes have already been given this, they'll soon outnumber classes that don't have it.
Offering a perk, feat, or item that is lost if any other level than Rogue is taken, along the lines of Shadowdancer or Assassin feats, perhaps :
The rogue, at level five, can choose either Lesser Shadow Conjuration/day (Giving them a choice of invisibility, Darkness, Mage Armor, or summon a weak Shadow - all "roguesy" spells) , Rogue's Cunning/day (Upping their skills so they're actually better than multiclasses at them), the Poison Wweapon feat, or the Lightening Reflexes feat.
None of those would improve them enough, sadly. There is a rather fine line between making them useful and making them rang- err, I mean, making them useful.
And before anyone says it, the solution is not to nerf rangers, who are FINALLY a great and playable class due to their benefits. A pity the camoflauge and One with the Land spells cannot be modified to only work in the Wilderness, though.
Like I have said, the biggest problem rogues face is their inability to hit anything, and that many things resist their sneak attack. Some sort of passive boost to their stealth may help as well, seeing as Rangers can buff their Hide/MS greatly with their magic.
QuoteNone of those would improve them enough, sadly.
They would not improve them hugely, but they would make them more interesting, more desirable, and more tricky and survivable - which is what rogues are supposed to excel at.
Class-restricted items can fix the rogue's problems on hitting undead.
yes they would Drakill and infact they are already out there.
More variety in the limited NWN classes is always welcome in my home Mr. Disco_Spoon.
The more variety the better WM.
There are hardly good enough to make a rogue just "below average" when fighting undead.
I welcome anything new and I am happy to hear that there are some more awesome things to come, though I still don't understand what everyones problem is.
The Rogue is a awesome class, especially with all the loot around here. There is Rogue-only-loot out there that matches some DM-loot easily, and it is not exactly hard to get that loot.
With existing perks and feats plus loot a lvl 7 rogue can easily reach a 30/30 hide/ms unbuffed, not even taking racial boni into the count, which you can have without apping if you want to play a stealth specialist.
There is also a lot of options to get Camouflage/OWL loot and potions, and I think they are even dropping very regulary now.
Also I don't get why a few people are complaining that a rogue can't hit anything. Come on, their BAB progression is the same as for any cleric. Ok, those get their buff spells for free, but is that a good trade considering their dogma? Your rogue can get nearly all those buffs easily aswell and I think everyone agrees that clerics are quite powerful.
Hitting undead with your rogue? Well the stuff to do it is out there, maybe have a look again!
That all isn't even the best about rogues though. The best are skill points and class skills. Really, how can't you love those? With all that options a rogue can be nearly everything, ranging from politician to backalley-thug.
A rogue isn't meant to charge at everything that comes his way, if he would be he would be named Backstabbing Fighter (Rogue is a pretty silly name for the class anyway though imo).
tl;dr
I welcome perks or anything new for rogues. And as faithful as I am in our DM-team I am sure that the changes will be quite cool and not op. I just don't get why everyone is complaining about a class that seems far from broken combat wise for me.
Sure rogue isn't that bad. But it's still shouldn't be so bad that comparing it to a fighter is like a butter knife to a sword and argueing that a butter knife can spread butter slightly better than a sword can.
Quote from: Drakill Tannan;210663Class-restricted items can fix the rogue's problems on hitting undead.
Don't forget, though. Rogues generally don't have the carrying capacity for a whole different range of weapons.
You dont play Rogues to play quest crushers, that's for sure.
I'd like to see stuff that doesnt necessairly make the class stronger, but more versatile.
Diplomat Rogue.
Engineer Rogue.
Tactician Rogue.
Stealthless Thug Rogue.
Merchant Rogue.
Themes like that. Whether like 'Diplomat' or Merchant get an income based on their charisma that reflects their trades. Tactician has auras / abilities that improve his team. Engineer has access to special crafts. Thugs have more HP. etc.
Tactician sounds really interesting actually...
Yeah auras that encourage teamwork and listening to the rouge in combat would be sick.
Maybe stuff like +1 dodge ac in a smaller area, to show a tactic that is vunerable to explosives but powerful against a hoarde charging you as you can protect the man on your flank.
Thug rogue also sounds good, no stealth but a beefy increase to hp, i was thinking something to really bring them up for direct confrontation so like tbh even +15-20 wouldnt be OP imo.
Considering no shield, and light armor only, i don't think even lots of HP would make a good melee rogue.
I'd go with a barbarian "thug".
I like this idea of a stealthless thug rogue. Something along the lines of +1 AB, and +4 HP/level or something I could see working well. Beefy beefers.
As long as the engineering doesn't work like the alchemy/herbalism skills that sounds awesome.
Quote from: Drakill Tannan;210733Considering no shield, and light armor only, i don't think even lots of HP would make a good melee rogue.
I'd go with a barbarian "thug".
You know that there are feats or supplies to solve this, right?
[irony]Perhaps we should give rogues heavy armor feat, martial weapons and exotic weapons though. Maybe throw a d10 hp in too! Oh and some boni to fort and will saves would be nice too and don't forget to give them some spells, maybe blur, barkskin and shield once a day starting with lvl2, grace, strength and endurance at 5, because its so unfair, everyone else got spells and I dont want to use my potions, I keep them to play inventory tetris with them.[/irony]
Feel free to propose rogue perk suggestions but do not resort to ridiculing what others put forward. In the end, it's we who decide what to add. Keep up the good suggestions, we want perks that give a flair to PCs, not enhance them mechanically.
Diplomat rouge
Perks that can be given
Elegance (//%22http://thesaurus.com/browse/elegance%22) Beyond compare
(Pure rouge only)
From your ages of political games and shady dealings you are a all around better speaker, but you started to neglect your more base duties of stay in shape and fit.
-2 strength
+2 charisma
--------------------------------------------------------------
Engineer Rogue
Light it up like its Dynomite
(pure rouge only)
You have an odd tendancy to use alchemist fire in your every day life, you also over all enjoy explosions of all natures. And often walk away slowly from them. And when ever you seem at your most dire.. you always find your emergancy flask of alchemists fire.
Each time you rest you get a alchemist fire with a rare chance of getting a firebomb.
1d6 of damage added to alchemist fire when thrown as a weapon.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Tactician Rogue.
(Pure rouge only)
Your full of helpfull phrases when in combat such as "RALLY SQUAD" or "TO ME MY BROTHERS!" such lines eventually seem to have a bit of effect.
Rallying cry 3/day and you get a +3 to persuade.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Stealthless Thug Rogue
This is my Big Stick
(Pure rouge only)
You have a tendancy to find mugging a part of life, and you often express that in well.. Mugging more people.
Due to you violent habits you slowly have moved away from the shady theft of your childhood to the more brutal and masculine acts of vicously mauling people with a club. Yet you find yourself utterly none social and people seem to run away rather then want to speak to you... Is it the half grown stuble on your face? Or perhaps the blood stained table leg youve named the "beat stick"?
-10 to MS and Hide
-5 to Persaude, appraise, bluff
+5 to intimidate
+5 hp per level
+2 ac
Wepon spec Club
--------------------------------------------------------------
Merchant Rogue
(Pure rouge only)
Your the Best! Arounddd-
From years of the trade, and many music filled montages of you selling your merchandise. You know how to sell and do it well!
Always getting the best deals and cutting the clsoest calls. You live your life on the edge! As a hard core merchant. Whom also has a nack for subtly picking up every coin you see.. Even if it doesnt belong to you.. Yet-
+5 to appraise +5 to pick pocket
Each rest you have a chance to find 1d10 gold on your person
QuoteTwo-Faced
(Rogue)
You are a gifted orator and able to express yourself with precision. In situations where others would lose face, you are able to drop the mask and try the same argument again as if you were a completely different person.
+5 EFUSS Secondary Diplomacy.
Reroll any failed Bluff/Intimidate/Persuade checks made.
QuoteLost in the Crowd
(Rogue)
There is something vaguely unrecognizeable about you. People describe you as ordinary and have a hard time remembering who you are. While this is a drawback for attaining any prestigious position, it also appears people forget grudges against you more easily.
Failing to pickpocket a merchant comes with no penalties.
Something more along those lines, maybe?
The trouble with Rogue is it's a class that has very little unique to it at higher levels. All the good stuff other than the L10 feats, you can get with 3 levels spaced out right. No surprise that you see a lot of multiclassing. Gear can't fix that weaknesses, as it can be stolen, lost or just never turn up for your PC. Perks, free feats, and EfU Setting Bonuses can be planned for.
Next, don't get so hung up on Stealth. It helps, but it's by no means the definition of the class. Lots of Rangers on EFU abandon stealth, as do most Bards and many Rogue multiclasses. Stealth is also one of the most broken features in NWN, in that you can hide in front of someone in broad daylight and not be seen. Extra stealth bonuses would just make powerbuilds/app races even more ridiculous. Anything a Rogue can do, a PC with cross-class Open Lock/Disable Trap can do well enough for most quests. The answer there's definitely not to up the DCs to lock non-rogues out, that just reduces character diversity. The answer's to give rogues more options.
Mort's thoughts on different styles of Rogue, like we have different Bard songs, is brilliant. I would definitely trade Sneak Attack or "thief" skills for different economic or tactical abilities. I played a very enjoyable and fairly successful Rogue who went around in halfplate all the time. He took Rogue as a class for the social and detection skills and large skillpoint pool, as I was playing a mercenary officer, not a badass infantryman.
My ideas on these are below. I've deliberately suggested more abilities than might be balanced. Consider a perk where you'd get several of these at the cost of losing Sneak Attack/Stealth/trap disabling/etc.
Direct Combat Rogues
Skirmisher:
Penalised stealth, Open lock, Disable Trap.
While wearing no armor or shield, you add your Intelligence bonus to your AC as a Dodge Modifier.
Street Thug
-50 H/MS
+3 HP per 2 levels (effectively raising the HD to D8. Or use the RDD's Hit Die Increase feat)
5% DI
+1 AB
Sniper
Ability to manufacture your own ammunition that deals heavy damage to sneak-proof targets. -1AB in melee.
"Smart" Rogues
Officer
All abilities would affect allies/enemies only, not the PC, requiring allies to listen.
"Take Them Down!" Damage Vulnerability on a single target for 2 rounds.
"Back Them Up!": Place beneficial aura on another friendly PC.
Engineer
Disassemble: +1d3/level Magical Damage against Constructs
Schematics: Your PC automatically gets the Alchemy recipes for several traps at L5 and 7.
Perfect Maintenance: Player Tool with 2/day Whetstone power.
Deploy Ballista: 1/day power to create a Repeater Crossbow, as per the scripted kit.
Natural Philosophy: +1 EFUSS Alchemy/Herbalism per level.
Deploy Construct: Power that works similarly to Animate Dead, creating a 24 hr summon upgradeable via chat menu.
Trader
Small Time Deals: Each rest, gain (CHA x INT) GP.
I've Got a Buyer: Player Tool that can destroy "vendor trash" items and low value "stolen" items for 10+2d6 GP, in "city" areas only. Would promote selling to PCs over NPC vendors.
Bribery: Option to spend GP for social skill bonuses on Persuade/Bluff.
while on the subject of sorting classes id like to see more sorceror perks like that bloodline idea that never came through for some reason
Imo to encourage people to use rogue as a pure build the class as a whole needs some kind of career structure through means of level progression bonuses, much like barbs uncapped rage and a druids new polymorph shapes.
The thing with rogues is that they are a very diverse class that has little in the way of making them unique in the field they choose to persue.
I have played rogues of various backgrounds and i have always multi-classed because of this lack of uniquness.
Heres just a suggestion to make rogues more unique while taking into account the efu:a setting (these are not perk suggestions, more like a system that could be introduced to offer diversity to pure rogues):
so i thought at level 5 rogues could choose a direction they want to go in and i could think of 4 main rogue professions..
Combat Rogue
through the toolset if possible have it so a rogue can choose a single weapon that he will become skilled with adding to his cobat skill through level progression.
Level 5: bonus feat weapon focus (chosen weapon)
Level 8: bonus feat weapon specialisation (chosen weapon)
Level 10: bonus feat improve critical (chosen weapon)
Diplomatic Rogue
Level 5: +5 skill points to persuade/intimidate/bluff
Level 8: (stolen from Talirs suggestion) Re-rolls on any intimidate/persuade/bluff checks.
Level 10: +1 charisma for every 5 efuss points invested in secondary diplomacy. (max +2)
Stealth Specialist Rogue
Level 5: bonus feats- stealthy, skill focus hide, skill focus move silently. (+5/+5)
Level 8: 10% movement increase and +3 to skills hide/move silently/pick pocket/search.
Level 10: epic speed 1/day
Jack of all trades Rougue
Level 5: +2 all class skills.
Level 8: +3 all class skills.
Level 10: +1 universal saves, bonus feat: skill mastery.
I think something similar to this would make rogues more fun to play without making them too OP.
Having just picked iron lungs as my perk as a rogue, I can say this would be awesome. As long as I got a do-over for my perk.
@OWN
They're missing something. All of them just add massive bonuses or 3 or more feats in the same area, without any drawbacks. They'd give you more firepower, but no flair. "Combat Rogue" for example gives a PC the same feats every Fighter takes, at no cost. Stealth Rogue would give +5 H/MS off 3 feats, plus close to a Trackless Step that works everywhere. Compare those to say, Ranger bonuses which are tied to other skills, like Tracking or situational to the wilds.
It'd be more useful for allowing pure rogues to prosper if you add unique stuff, or shore up their weak points so you don't feel the need to multiclass for defence or more weapons.
For example:
QuoteCombat Rogue:
Shield Proficiency.
Weapon Proficiency (Simple)
Skill Focus: Discipline
Skill Focus: Taunt
+3 HP per 2 levels
-5 Persuade, Bluff, Open Lock, Hide, Move Silently.
That gives you a good deal more survivability and a two handed weapon (spear) for direct combat. The opportunity to use a cross-class skill in a support role (taunt), and a defence against an easy win (Some more disc, vs KD). The trade-off is that sort of PC can't play as effective a thief or scout.
QuoteInvestigator
+5 Spot/Search/Listen when not in a wilds area
Tracking
+10% Movement when not in the wilds.
Inverse ranger. Gives you the great RP and tactical uses of a Ranger's detection skills, but in an urban environment.
Quote
Bowslinger
Increased movement speed (as per Ranger)
Improved Critical (Shortbow, Sling, Dart, Light/Heavy Crossbow)
Called Shot
-1 Ab with melee weapons
-5 Persuade, Bluff, Open Lock.
A PC who can outrun pursuers rathern than shooting, then getting caught by a barb or monk. Can afford to take Called Shot instead of just Rapid Shot, and not have to go with Martial Weapons/Fighter for a longbow.
QuoteTwo-Fisted Thug
Flurry of Blows
Imp Critical (Unarmed Strike)
-5 Persuade, +3 Intimidate
-30 H/MS
Doesn't sparkle in the sunshine.
@SC
Bag of Tricks is brilliant stuff, grenadelikes are fun, useful and way underused. I'd suggest making it always the more unusual stuff.
It was "perks" in the title for a reason, as that wasn't really the idea to improve them and I don't think these will really do that, as awesome as some of them are. Hopefully the internal talks are more along the lines of some mechanical buffs and not only a few random perks. <_<
I spoke as a player, mind you. I left the dm team. Just shooting some ideas.
I played a rogue back in the days that didn't really quest, had a 25gp wage and I was broke all the time, but for other reasons. But I always wanted to play rogues as politicians, engineers, merchants (undercover mob guys of course!) that didn't bother principally with questing to gain stuff, but it's not viable or if it is, it's too time consuming (See Frum standing in the merchant zone for 4-5 hours a day trying to sell his stuff). I never felt it was viable to have a DM on demand for politics as part of a character agenda and these types of character would sort-of need that too.
Finally, I didn't find that any other classes but the rogue fit for these roles. Bard? It could... but it would require an artistic edge. Fighter? It could, but I wanted them to be cowards >_> and if I'm a fighter, I'll be forced to frontline and be badass at one point. Wizards/Sorcerors? It's easier as they dont need huge stat investment to be useful, but I never felt this class to be a merchant, politician, engineer theme class. Cleric of some Merchant deity? Could work, but most of them are played by lazy roleplayers (see lazy roleplayer as responding to the roleplay guidelines with the bare minimum) that tainted this combination for me.
So, a mechanic to encourage these sort-of characters would be interesting in my opinion as they are usually interesting movers and shakers of EFU.
If the idea is to encourage people to play rogue as a pure class i think they would need a mechanical boost on account of the advantages of multi-classing. Some of the perks that have been suggested sound good but nothing that would make me want to play a pure rogue over a say a ranger/rogue or fighter/rogue. Even a diplomatic character i would choose bard over rogue.
Merum Twind is a pure rogue, not gonna change.
I'd like to add special bonuses and turn the rogue into sub-class, as it says rogues can be scouts, mercenaries, tacticians, thugs, informants, merchants, and many more things.
Leader's Vigor
You are always the one shouting orders, and nobody denies that. Although most would not care, you still seem to have an effect on them. However after focusing on command you seem to have less of a focus on killing.
(Gives you a longhorn that has rallying cry 3x/day at lv5, then at lv7/9 gives 1x/day last stand if that is not too OP. No sneak attacks.)
Average Thug
You always have been tougher than most kids growing up. You have become a bad seed and often commit violent tendencies.
(Boost AB +2, -20 Hide/MS, Intimidate +3, bonus 2 hit points every level)
I'm not the best with making perks so feel free to make some changes.
I think you'll have a hard time finding much that people would take over sneak attack itself. Naga probably has the closest vision to that, and those seem rather overpowered since they are not situational!
I think pure rogues would be better off if bilbys was made pure rogue only, doable unlimited times and all bilbys equipment was pure rogue only no umd *cough* Since it can give alot of perks to anyone who uses it, like ranger feats for the knuckle axes. Amazing skill bonuses for good quality stuff.
Make that our specialization.
Swashbuckler :weapon focus : Rapier, Weapon Specialization : Rapier, Improved Critical : Rapier, plus one Parry per level, Blinding Speed/day. Drawbacks are no sneak attack, -50 to Use Magic Device, Hide and Move Silently. This is a lighter version of a weapon master who can still perform basic rogue functions for the party.
Enforcer / Thug : Epic Weapon Specialization : Club, Epic Toughness (plus 20 hp). Drawbacks : same as the Swashbuckler.
Playing a pure rogue, evil b*tich, I would like to ask that we hurry it up on these rogue perks. Because I haven't picked a perk yet, waiting for one of these, and don't forget, usually people play a rogue when they want to be evil. Or do something.. Witty, impressive, fighting is fun and all, but it's not very good, a lot of things have undead, snakes, and other immunities to sneak attacks. The RP value to being a rogue is almost enough. But I would enjoy some spice to rogues. As the perks you've all posted. But I don't know if the DMs forgot about this post or not... So I'm here asking for it to be brought to attention again! Thanks!
"But I would enjoy some spice to rogues"
Did you try doing BILBYS.
Yes, I did it all I could, and got extremely unlucky. When I found all of them. I set a trap off at the end.. And got potions half the time.
[giggles] Bump....
What are the rogue perks?
http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49476 ?
Mechanical things are needed. The flavor is great though!
THREAD NECROMANCY!
Rogue only banks, to solve the problem of the Docks not having a bank. High lvl rogues can access a special NPC, at a 15 or 20% surcharge (as opposed to the Dominion Banks 10%)
Hmm...
Quote from: Shifty McRogueface"Sorry guys, can't access the bank, it's shut until you powerquest me back up fo 8, K?"
Simple solution. Once you reach that level and speak to said NPC, you aquire a token which allows you to bank.
Bonus if people can beat you up, steal your token, and use it to steal your money. An extra layer of conflict.
Or, just have a script tag the PC so they don't need to maintain a specific lvl to access the bank- once they have it, they have it.
Quote from: GoblinSapper;226638Bonus if people can beat you up, steal your token, and use it to steal your money. An extra layer of conflict.
How would this be different than just beating you up and taking your money directly, which is the whole reason this banking business was brought up for discussion in the first place? :p
...banks? -_-
*Raise dead*