I'm more tired of the one-sided situation on EfU right now than I was in the end of Sanctuary, and it's a great deal down to one player faction getting a lot of indirect and direct support. The Olid Gang. This isn't sour grapes at losing Labur, but rather the opposite. I stayed stupidly involved in that fight after (known) Company PCs turned up yesterday because I was sick of the faction getting so much backup, and out of sheer IC and OOC frustration hoped I might have a chance to FD one or two of the wounded ones and balance things out a bit.
They have a DM faction behind them, ridiculous supplies and a bunch of goons (PCs and NPC base guards). They piledriver everything, rule the server and nobody can touch them. This isn't conflict so much as bashing your head against a wall. They were cool while it was them and the Amauntori as 2 PC factions against each other, but now there's no rival, and a DM faction on their side. When the server started out, I guess a lot of us assumed the First Bolt and Armada would be at each other's throats in a sort of cold war. Several letters to the Fleet went along those lines. It didn't work out like that.
As a result nobody so can seriously threaten the Company or the Armada, so lots just join them instead. See today's ass-kicking of the druids. It's boring, and frustrating. There's nothing like Seeker/Spellguard rivalry, Montezzi or Ghyrrt/Upper fighting, or the Rebellion and Host hiding out in various places
There is nowhere for a general good PC to go to if don't want to put up with slavers, necromancers, etc. The Gazers will chuck you out a tree head-first if you bring conflict to their woods (so that's hide only), and the Shark's impractical both for reaching the majority of quests and using the sendings.
Any serious Good chars get pretty marginalised. Other than the Bolts, who don't interfere with stuff on land, there's no mostly Good or mostly altrusitic Lawful DM faction like the Greycloaks, Watch, Society, Seekers etc. There's not even any decent Good loot. Hell, I stopped selling potions on Labur for a good while after he was pretty sure it was only Evil PCs affording big orders.
This isn't a rant at any of the Team Olid players, you've got cool PCs there. It's at the way the situation was unbalanced from the start with factions and leaving the Zig to PC faction influence when PCs for various OOC reasons don't organise so well.
It's not made me want to give up, but it has made me pretty much give up on trying to affect the server as I'd want to make PVP-rigged powerbuilds rather than interesting builds if I'm going to risk any chance of a fight.
I find myself agreeing with Egon's Statement. It isn't as much as it's Olid's fault, it's people joining the BandWagon, join a different group people!
People always flock to the winning side it seems.
Hear, hear!
Below is Cruzel on a motivational rant. : )
I saw no problem with it really. Both sides stared lined up and then started beating on each other, and the better prepared one won. What exactly are you saying should be done about this?
You're forgetting even one or two level 3's or 4s CAN take down a PC like Olid, Montezzi, whatever. Nobody in this faction or any faction on EFU is unbeatable. This is something most people don't grasp. If you work for it, you can do it. It may not be as simple as running up and saying ; Hey I'm going to try to kill you in a a huge fight when you have all your friends and you're all fully buffed.
They may have more supplies, better backing, and whatnot- But there is still a pretty good chance to take them down if you use strategy and prepare properly. Use your brains to win your fights, not your powerbuilds!
You say there is no place for Good PCs; Then Make one! Sometimes rampant PVP is not the only solution to a conflict. Make a truce, move around, form a coalition or some shit. Make your own "Good" HQ. In order for there to be a 'Good' Faction there needs to be people willing and working to make the difference, for people to bandwagon on. EFU has been like this since I got here, shifting from 'Good' beingin power, to 'evil'. During each shift there is almost always one post complaining about the balance of the good/evil. Instead of posting something that has already been posted tons of times over, with just different faction names inserted; Work for it! It is only impossible if you think it is.
This does echo with me some of the feelings I've had over the last couple of days. It just strikes me as odd when characters I would assume to be Good are suddenly all throwing there lot in with murderers and slavers. Also as for trying to set up a bastion of good thing its actually a lot harder than it seems since evil char can do things that while not prohibited by good characters are certainly frowned upon (assassinations etc). It also seems odd that you have a room with half a dozen seekers in it whilst people being marched away in chains to be sold into slavery happening less that 30 meters away
I do not know every conflict that goes on in the server, but it seems to me that there is just one large group of evil PCs and a few separate/unorganized factions of good/neutral PCs. The issue that arises from this is a tough task taken on by the PCs who actually wish to change the server towards their honorable or righteous goals. A common and classic dilemna.
One thing I think would add to the dynamic is if these 10 amazingly powerful evil PCs didn't always work together. However, such is the case at the moment and, yes, it is an obstacle to get over for team good. The natural reaction from these then neutral PCs who must choose who to support becomes quite clear: remain neutral or benefit from the badasses and join the evil bandwagon. There are a few who actually make the choice to help the underdogs; however, they seem to just end up looted and unrewarded.
While I dislike scrutiny, I enjoy criticism and suggesting ways to help better the server. What it comes down to is the players who support the one-sidedness of the server at times. When building a character or new concept, I notice a lot of PCs who are specifically made to take advantage of the groups such as Olid to quickly gain power and loot. Yes, they may have their own goals, but they use the situation of the server to support their character's growth. I personally enjoy the opposite, joining those factions or groups that are in a rut and could use some attention.
Another major issue is that I find while some players are quite powerful in PvP, many people are inexperienced and tremble at the first sign of it. I would just ask that those people who are confident in their skills perhaps reconsider their new concepts and place them on hold to help aid in the struggling factions who fail miserably at making any real stand. I know it sounds silly, but I'm pretty confident that most of you can put off one concept and easily come up with another in order to stir things up.
Finally, DMs! One thing I have noticed in the complete failure of righteous PCs to take over is very little support (and I could be completely wrong about this). Yes, it is up to the players to remain self-reliant and work hard towards their goals, but as it is right now, it is tough. I would merely ask that DMs take notice and support the weaker side to create a more dynamic play on power struggle until it is felt that no influence is necessary.
I do not post much, but I enjoy reading so let me add that I love the server and it is a damn fun game.
I'd just like to point out that before this it was team good that was always on the rise and with the backing many DM Factions. Not many people complained then, conveniently enough. Being good isn't supposed to be easy.... there's a lot more I can say but I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings on the subject.
Maybe the DMs want players to actually fight for what is "right". Even when it's not convenient for them. It's easy to be team good when there is about 4 DM Factions that are fighting with you against every tiny evil faction, and all the good loot rocks. If you don't like playing like that then make an evil character. It's easy. You click any button on the bottom row of alignment choices.
This is really the fault of the player base. DM's reward awesome players, and de Olid's player is awesome and thus he's rewarded.
This type of stuff always happens. When players see one person being awesome (and as a result getting DM attention and loot) they flock to said individual and his / her group.
Plus, de Olid has joined a DM faction and has the typical backing of a DM faction just as anyone else would.
My suggestion to everyone who wants to see things change is the following. Use your character or start a new one and join another faction that would naturally oppose the Armada. Although I've been away, I've seen more than a handful of potential candidates. Then be awesome to gain DM attention, and as a result people will begin to flock to your side.
That's the easiest and best way to do it. It sets a bad precedent to ask the DM's to intervene when a player is doing well. If you do not think you can stand toe to toe with the Armada use cunning instead. Plot in secret, form a group of like minded individuals, and then begin to assassinate his allies one by one. Make it clear that anyone who joins de Olid will join him in death. Work so that your identities are not revealed so he cannot strike back. Find a way to get your hands on explosives then bomb the hell out of the Armada's base. Burn their ships.
Use your head. There is lots you can do if you act intelligently, but please do not ask the DM's to jump in to penalize a player who is doing well. This is the job of the players.
Imbalance is the spice of life. Enjoy an overwhelming and oppressive regime while you can. If it is evil today, in three months it will be good. One cannot always be the victor of the story. Eventually this regime will change. Sometimes it is an amazing realization that your PC cannot defeat the big evil, but I assure you -- someone can. I can post more about my experiences playing a Montezzi later, and the subtle plots that people did not see going on in the background of that faction.
Gippy and Meldread have nailed it. Factional power is entirely cyclical.
If you desire a change in the status quo yet lack the mechanical savviness to stand tall against the established powers, then outfox them in the intrigue game. Establish an information ring, recruit in secret, hire assassins, lay elaborate traps, identify and cut off your enemy's sources of wealth and support, that sort of thing. There is alot to be said about intrigue on EFU, and I think its something that is sadly all-too-often left at the wayside in favor of quest bashing and the consumable arms-race. You can be assured that the Montezzis, and indeed, de Olid's gang presently, have relied (and still do, in de Olid's case) on using the various tools of intrigue to come to power, and hold onto it. Beat them in this game and you stand a real chance to emerge from the struggle victorious!
This is a DRD Rant!
I have to say there are many solutions to beating a evil group or any group then just showing up buffing up with your potions and charging.
for 1 Listen to Caddies believe it or not he was taking a huge group of evil pcs some ages ago that did have DM and Pcs with potions and stuff. All alone by himself. (infact Caddies has performed operations like this numerouse times and one of his chars was responsiple for taking down a DM Faction that had tons of Npcs.)
2 Watch Star Wars and ask yourself
"Did the rebels just get all there men and charge into the Empire head on?" NO THE REBELS SABATOGED BLEW UP BATTLE STATIONS AND USED GUERILLA WARFARE.
3 Watch V for Vendetta and ask yourself if V alone could of taken on all the High Chancelors guards and there army all by himself.
4 Another tip
Who says you have to slay your own foes? Many of us dont like to get our hands dirty. Many of us dont think we can take them on. Many more of us dont want to kill a foe to suffer the charges of Murder or to get punished by the law.
HINT HINT
Hitmen! Hitmen have been very effective on EFU and having an enemy killed is just as fun as killing an enemy yourself.
5 Who says evil has to stick with one group?
For one many evil people might be disgusted by Olids actions and seek to slay him. It is not like all evil people have this magnetic attraction to eachother and they all want to make out plot and do all this evil stuff together.
Many evil people infact fight other evils.
For example.
Cyric Vs Bane
Garagauth vs Everyone
Shar Vs Everyone
Infact I hate to admit this but most of the Lives our Dark Hearted Dread Watchmen Koinus Sten actually slew more evil then good people.
End rant
Yes, when people win a few battles through luck or otherwise... it may change the characters that you are usually used to seeing around the gameworld, but is that bad?
No! It's really not. We do stress the importance of sticking with one character, but it's also important to be able to cope with a loss. This feeling of imbalance or unjustice toward whatever you play at the time isn't unique to EfU:A. Any server that allows competitive, challenging and interesting conflict will have these kinds of posts ( see http://www.karashur.net/mmorpg-articles/carebear.php ). But with every death in PvP, you learn and your characters become more complex and interesting, and possibly do more actions to attract positive attention from other players, and possibly have a group of their own that will tilt the balance of power toward whatever you personally play. It has been said times and times again, power is cyclical... and it varies sometimes abruptly, and when it varies abruptly, people feel insecure.
But as of now, all the PvP (that you talk about) has mostly been done between high-level high-profile characters with lots of background to themselves and to the conflict.
Most of these characters made the conscious choice to oppose or to engage in pvp (they weren't forced into it or griefed, there was always a way out).
Factions have not received a ridiculous amount of support, this is just yourself giving you an excuse as to why you lost. PLEASE, this is simply not true and if anything, I am appaled that the belief is toward that as ... some NPCs have died recently giving their ALL-OUT trying to help the groups that lost. These NPCs were certainly NOT weak and killed many in the opposing group as well as nearly killed MOST of them.
Similarly to the age of Montezzi, where Montezzi group killed all the Spellguard (despite the Spellguard having HUGE Npc support), killed all the Seekers, and yes, destroyed a large clan of dwarf. Many players of that time were jealous of their success, scared IC of their power, but their time DID come to an end... and when it did I was really sad because it was not a PC that ended triumphing over them, it was a lame NPC... I was really hoping that my character could have been the one to stop them and it didn't happen :( . So, cherish these unstable, tough times as when they are over and 'peace' return to the lands, it will slowly get dull until someone re-upsets the balance!... these unfair times are where it is fun to play because there are lots of characters you can oppose, send spies in their midst, try to break their alliances through lies and deceit, etc.
This is just a small quote. Dont take offense, but the theory of the "The server is tilted against whatever I personally play" is just an excuse to reason having lost in PvP... Dont make excuses :( ... Many outcomes could have happened this week-end, and it is simply luck that it turned this way.
QuoteMost people won't win every encounter. It seems like society has created this "everyone is a winner" attitude. It makes people hate/deny mistakes. I've heard every excuse in the book when it comes to why someone lost a battle. Don't make excuses! Just look at every loss as a learning experience. Take the steps to find others who are willing to teach you how to become good in player versus player encounters.
Every failure should be considered a rich opportunity for learning what doesn't work, and why.
Trying out pvp for the first time reminds me of the story of Thomas Edison's early attempts to come up with the right material for a lightbulb. He tried a thousand different elements and all had failed. A colleague asked him if he felt his time had been wasted, since he had discovered nothing.
"Hardly," Edison is said to have retorted briskly. "I have discovered a thousand things that don't work."
Who knows what we would be using for light if it wasn't for the focused effort of Edison.
I think all pvpers can relate to the adrenaline rush you get when you are new to player versus player encounters. You don't know how things will turn out. Sometimes it is paralyzing, but as you gain more practice it will be second nature.
Just to reiterate what Mort said-- power is cyclical and certainly unstable. It rises and falls on a very regular basis. The worst thing you can do as a player is become resentful about it-- treat it as IC, and I guarantee you that you will have more fun. Revel in the chaos! EfU has never been for the thin-skinned.
I will also reiterate the point about NPC support-- most of Olid's success has been entirely through his own efforts, with minimal DM support. I would encourage good-aligned PCs to form coherently and smartly into their own band-- power lies in groups, and so does most of the fun of EfU.
I don't see anything wrong with the way the server is heading. People complain about a lack of direction, then they complain about too much direction (All PC fueled mind you).
I for one, welcome our new insect overlord's and hope they bring stability to our once chaotic sovereign state.
I find this kind of situation to be very interesting, as I always prefer to play the underdog and I do think that we players should look at it as an interesting situation, rather than as a problem. There will always be cycles, so better to enjoy what they may bring and these dominating forces are never as strong and powerful as they may seem to be, I think that there is just a lack of courage to fight/act, and take risky moves against them around or people are just doing it wrongly.
If you want to oppose Olid your main problem is organization. It is why his faction is powerful and yours is weak. You need to surround yourself with -players- that are reliable and want the same things you do. Failing that, you need to -train- players to stick to a character and want to learn how to get the most out of EFU:A.
The biggest problem with player run factions is that they often lack interesting goals to pursue. This is a problem you Egon, as a faction leader, can influence. You need to have very specific things to always be working towards, that will attract like minded characters to you. It can be a difficult thing to do well and sometimes takes time to learn. Good factions can be especially difficult to stick with, because they are generally reactive, as opposed to evil factions which are generally proactive.
Something that was stressed in Sanctuary was that you do not make enemies where you don't need to. It is just common sense that if you are starting a fledgling government you do not antagonize the most powerful group, you legitimize them until you can turn the tables.
Pre-Montezzi Spellguard.
Montezzi.
Team Rebel at the end of Sanctuary.
This isn't new.
Oh, and one small thing about losing PvP. I've been here... three years now? I cannot recall when I was ever a notable player in a PvP battle, barring some scuffles on Dugbone against notably weaker people and once with Lucius Westmore. Aside from two or three instances out of twenty, thirty, maybe more... it just hasn't happened. I still love EfU, too. Be careful of turning the wonderful, dynamic world that is EfU into a simple battleground. It has so much more to offer! Destroying things, PCs, NPCs, whole factions can certainly be fun, but building the world like a sandcastle has been ultimately more gratifying than PvP, at least for me.
Basically, yes, PvP is great and important for EfU, but it is not the most important nor should it be.
Lastly, and most importantly, mulletsandcamaros is lame, but not/never as lame as Kotenku, for reasons utterly unrelated to this whole post and state of affairs. He also drinks like a sissy. Fin.
Although some suggestions have been made on how good might battle evil better, I think it should be remembered that while evil may have no scruples on how they go about defeating their enemies, most good (especially lawful good) characters will have. It is the same difference that makes it difficult for good aligned characters to cooperate, because albeit their goals a similar, they may often have very different opinions on to how to solve their problems. Not all good characters will sort to assassination, even if it is the more effective way.
Admittedly, I have not read all of the posts, but I believe the OA is not asking for DMs to even things out, but that good has not always been a very attractive alignment to play and perhaps the DM could help “sweeten the dealâ€. The topic of lack of “good aligned drops†has already been made but it seem to be sorely lacking any obvious factions (PCs or DMs), perhaps the Fleet isn't obvious enough with its goals, where “team good†might gather, lead by tireless leaders like Armand Waters.
-Signed: Armand Waters Fan-girl.
I just want to clarify a few points.
Firstly, the players of Coravain and de Olid both did really well at building a conflict, letting it play out without rushing to slaughter, and involving lots of others in it.
Secondly, the NPCs of neither Coravains nor de Olid's DM faction went around smashing anyone who stood in their way, nor filling them full of loot for free.
It was a nice, well RPed conflict by most involved, but when push comes to shove someone has to end up a victor and a vanquished.
Like I said, I'm not making this post as a rant because my main got ended. I apologise if it sounds like that and has annoyed anyone. I was going to vent this anyway. Labur got ended *because*I got this frustrated with the situation and didn't go with his continuing plan to get Dwarves together and try and pull some Black Arrows re-enactment, or use potion profits to hire a hitter. Instead I saw Olid and Morningblood turn up to that fight and thought "Well, I could stand down or run, or I could try and break their faces". Stupidly, I took Option B. Really, I should have gone with making a faction that didn't require Race=Dwarf. It would have been easier :P.
I think I probably slanted that too heavily towards Olid Gang influence due to recently half the Ziggurat weighing in on their side, rather than "Good PCs are just not feeling wortht it right now".
Goldfishpie has it right. I'm not whining for a "DM Ex Machina", just wanting some sort of focal point for Good PCs, because like she said, there's a lot of uncooperative Good guys, partly as you can't pull the same "Riches and power" trick to recruit principled Good types as easily, and the Bolt doesn't really suit non-seafaring or Lawful types so much.
But, I was trying to provoke some response and discussion, because I was fresh out of ideas for making a Good PC with some kind of chance of influence, and was this close to "Sod it I'm making a Velsharite, Here Come The Zombies."
@Mort: I never said DM support, I meant it as "bandwagoning, player support". The only direct DM support I saw recently was you cleaning up the bits of that unsanctioned PVP that broke out and creating a decently in-depth ending for four of us.)
Thanks to everyone who posted up constructive stuff here, I've been stuck for ideas, tactics, everthing, compared to players running any other factions here. First time trying a PC faction.
I do have a faction idea in the workings now, or I may decide to go with a small Evil group or PC with no ties to any of the others (Possibly with accompanying zombies though). I've been wanting to make a villainous type for some time now, but I'd rather balance things out somehow. (Really, I should have made a TN Druid for EFUA ;))
It's a well known fact baddies flock to an influential evil entity like flies to shit.
All de Olid is trying to do for the playerbase, is make an evil PC for the good PCs to target. Intelligently.
mulletsandcamareros is a good PvPer, perhaps direct combat isn't as intelligent as you first thought? Perhaps appealing to his weaknesses?
This entire situation takes a good deal of thought, on both sides. Just step outside the box, for just a moment. PvP isn't the be all and end all of conflict.
Here's the thing, there are groups that are trying to stand up to de Olid and trying to build power--but very few people are supporting them. I know the militia, which has stood up to the Stygians in the past has almost no one flocking to it. Our DM support rather than nil is actually an effective "negative support" because right now the DMs are making it extremely challenging for us as we need to prove our dedication and committment to the NPCs still.
All these lawful and good PCs that want to flock somewhere should start banding together to try to do something about de Olid. He's not unstoppable, no one really is.
However, those who have tried to stop him have all been reckless and/or arrogant in their approach and were quickly stopped. De Olid's got lots of player support because he's honestly following the tried and true approach for building a player faction.
1) Level up and quest a lot with PCs you know and trust. This gets you a) powerful, b) insanely well equipped, c) makes you lots of friends who want to be a) powerful, and b) insanely well equipped.
2) Roleplay an interesting character with at least a few clear and solid goals.
get devious
make an evil pc; rest your good pc for a while; join evil faction. soon there will be no downtrodden masses. evil faction breaks up ! aha!
to be more serious: do people not enjoy playing a downtrodden mass as well? i love it.
http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/old_forums/viewtopic.php?t=36960&start=0
...and...
http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/old_forums/viewtopic.php?t=23581&start=0
...funny, isn't it?
PhK from invis imo. Problem solved.
1: I'd have to say there was a lot of incompetency for a lot of the non-Olid PCs all around for running quests with an appropriate group. Generally things aren't covered and people get boned due to running certain quests which had peanut rewards that one could only profit from hosing through them with the appropriate buffs, if you ask me. Therefore not as much leveled PCs or stocked ones. Less PUG EfU:A please.
2: Some aren't getting the idea of being in a group to be influential.
3: The Banners thing isn't implemented yet, therefore pursuing any influence has gotten some people lazy as hell and they aren't doing anything.
The King is dead. Long live the King!
1. New factions are the same as old factions, at really in what it can be diferent ?
Power, Balance, Survive, Explore, Return, Protection, Opression, Racial, Deity, Relic, Dogma, Justice, just pick at random till is enough.
2. The spice must flow and the DooM is Go(o)d. When a player don't trust in DMs sense, better move to other server. It never will be a peer server, it can't be because have no rules for DMs.
3. Unique rule is do whatever our char must do, not what you like do to, and plan how do it, else play dices elsewhere.
Both Coravain and de Olid done all it IC, what is the catch?
Nature makes no errors, good or bad are human concepts. (ditto Dune.)
Not going to read all of that because I've read it before, many times. If you want a good faction, DM or otherwise, then make it. Please. I've played with you Egon, and you're pretty darn good. It would not be hard for you to accomplish if you had enough time to put into it.
RIVAL IDEA!!! Just make your character with a sweet background, detailed ideas and some kind of quirks and throw him into the game. I for one have never met Olid or any of his goons with ANY of my characters, so I'm not sure how they can be ruling the server...
Lot of good points made all around.
Factions are fantastic, I'd like to see more good factions with powerful NPC's supporting them. I actually was approved for the Fleet and no DM had the time sign me up for weeks. Granted, DC has been out and the Fleet was his "baby", but the lack of support there eventually turned me off. So you look elsewhere and you quickly come to the conclusion that there really is no DM supported good faction atm. So you decide to build your own, but it takes a lot of slow, steady, sustained effort. Which is cool, of course, but don't expect to get there right away, it may take months.
In general, my good characters have had to start from nothing and build something almost entirely by themselves. My evil characters have often met powerful patrons off the bat and been "handed" all the tools to put them on the fast track to success. The irony is that in real life, it usually works the other way. I really do believe that the general DM base is inclined to focus its attention on evil. I've been saying it for years, so why stop now? Even if that attention doesn't come in the form of loot, its beneficial, trust me on that.
In any event, its not worth getting all worked up about. Its kind of just the way things are, and I don't expect it to really change. Good will have its hayday again, when they work their asses off for it.
But there is a reason why this topic keeps coming up, I believe.
I haven't read the whole thread, but I'd like to mention that power is cyclical. It comes in phases, and remember we are playing in a growing setting. You all entered a gameworld that was literally a blank slate, and as time progresses, you the players will be integral in developing factions that do have those rivalries like the Spellguard/Seekers, and the Tigereye/Watch had.
This is like an early phase of struggle, and not necessarily a bad thing. We're definitely not trying to overpower one faction to trump all the others, and we're being careful to make sure that factions remain interesting and rich.
The problem with factions is that I'm not in the one that gives out the most loot.
I'm curious as to what are these factions that get all the attention and loot?
I believe that post was tongue-in-cheek, ser mort.
Historically, the evil ones, imo.
As I mentioned above though, good gets loot and attention too, they just tend to have to work harder for it, building from the bottom an outlasting those that want them dead.
This isn't to say its a bad thing either, just how I've usually seen it breakdown. I happen to hold the -opinion- that DM's enjoy playing with evil characters more often then good. Often because these characters get into more trouble, which is fun to watch.
It's a generality I've choosen to draw, and you can't make me undraw it!
Evil is usually proactive, and good usually reactive. From what I've seen in my time here, good or evil, it's usually the proactive characters that come out on top. Whenever the tilt of good or evil is not in your favor, it just gives more opportunity for people to oppose.
There were around 20 pcs watching while Olid's mage summoned undead to kill Jack Black while he was manacled, nobody lifted a finger. After that point if your PC who was there or heard of that didn't realize something stank about that band, they must have six Intelligence.
Instead, when its too late people start making half ass attacks by themselves, without trying to recruit the help of other groups that probably would oppose Olid as well.
They then wonder why the faction is so powerful. Well, its because you all let them get that way and then engage in suicidal attacks by yourselves. The montezzis were the same as the dwarves and the spellguard and whomever else happily fought them one by one instead of combining forces. Actually before the spellguard assault in which they were wiped out, my barbarian was running around upper screaming about how she wanted revenge on the Montezzis. Pretty sure having a frontliner there on their side might've made at least a small difference, but they weren't interested in a free ally. Just one small example of myopic faction behavior.
.
Not every group/character is going to be proactive in a PvP kind of way. Its these good characters that are often forgotten about for months at a time. Meanwhile, they could be doing some really great things for the server as a whole. Typically evil does involve itself in PvP and reaps ridiculous rewards from it.
Then when something happens that thrusts those good players into action, they are usually sorely behind on loot, lvls and consumables and thus die.
OMG, HI ARMAND WATERS FAN GIRL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-Armand Waters FanBoy89
Quote from: PanamaLane;94933Not every group/character is going to be proactive in a PvP kind of way. Its these good characters that are often forgotten about for months at a time. Meanwhile, they could be doing some really great things for the server as a whole. Typically evil does involve itself in PvP and reaps ridiculous rewards from it.
Then when something happens that thrusts those good players into action, they are usually sorely behind on loot, lvls and consumables and thus die.
That is a good summary of why it is harder to play Good most of the time.
We need more paladins to make powerquesting harder for evil! XD
I mean, just look at how hard the militia has been struggling to form, and by comparison if they were a group far more sinister in nature....well they'd done be formed by now and the populace cowering before them. It's not something the DM's do, just the way it is.
Evil is so tempting because it's the quick path to power. Ask any sithlord!
I don't find the argument that playing Evil PCs is easier than playing Good PCs because Evil PCs get huge rewards from PvP very convincing at all. A proactive Good PC has just as many PvP opportunities available to them as an Evil PC.
No alignment is specifically 'harder' to play than another, be it Chaos/Law or Evil/Good. The server does not cater to any alignment axis at the expense of another; if you believe it does, you are sadly mistaken. After years of experience creating and maintaining amazing settings for us to play in, I believe the DM team is fully aware that incorporating an inherent bias to one alignment spectrum in the gameworld would be undesirable.
What makes temporary, fleeting disturbances in this otherwise even playing field is the rise and fall of specific characters. One need only recount the era of Valaron and his dominant Watch cohort, or Rinaldo and his ruling House Montezzi, to see the impact PCs make in this regard. And, as explained a thousand times over, this is cyclical.
I believe that Goldfishpie and PanamaLane are quite correct in their comments that Good Aligned PCs are more difficult to play successfully, takes way more effort to succeed as a Good PC than an Evil one and for them to dominate a cycle. Secondly, I do think that all of you who disagree should be less defensive, for one it is true that there are ever changing cycles that will always be happening, however it is clear that it is rare for Good Aligned PCs to be the dominating force of a cycle, Valaron, the Watch and New Dunwarren's time was surely one, but other than that I cannot think of any other time, except maybe for the recent rebellion before the ascension, where the rebels basically dominated.
Thirdly, though mostly of a reply to Caddies. I am sure the DM team is aware that a bias to one alignment spectrum would be bad for the server and the setting, but everyone is biased or slightly so, same with the DMs and we cannot always think that the DMs are more correct than the players even if they know more of what goes on than the players, if this concern is all wrong, why have these posts keep coming up? There is nothing wrong to admit that it is indeed more difficult to play Good Alignment, and especially the Lawful Good Alignment on EFU. At the same time though, I do admit that many Good PCs, sometimes including myself have been lax in being pro active.
I agree with Wern and PanamaLane’s posts, the DMs have a tendency to line towards the â€evil axisâ€, and should perhaps be less defensive when this is pointed out. The evil alignment has features that are more attractive simply because it can be more fun due to the nature of the alignment (no scruples, torture, blackmail, assassinate, plot world domination, or snuggle the undead, what is there not to love?) However, good characters are often in the situation that they have to be reactive and it can be difficult to be as proactive as evil, and thus some may think it is less fun. DMs should perhaps not necessarily "help" Evil just because they are being proactive since it is naturally for them to be so.
The grass is most likely greener on the otherside of whatever kind of characters you prefer to play. I can *assure* you that evil is really not on any checklist that I have before I give attention, loot or whatever. In fact- It's usually much easier for people who play evil all the time to receive some badpress from the DMs as they might unwillingly or willingly engage in something that we deem "not-flavorful". Evil is harder to play fairly, hence, it's something that we do watch out for more and pay more attention to. But it's necessairly not to reward.
Toward the end of the server, the lovely seeker/rebellion group was dominant and likely had combined the most perks, loot, blue-berries, whatever, etc. of all the other groups. *gasp*
Currently, the only bias that may be is toward those that play around the EST time frame :( simply because it is the place where we had/have the most coverage.
I'm really not convinced that the reason for more attention is being evil, both from past experience having played all alignment axis and the balance of attention that we give currently. Seems just a way to say the server is tilted toward whatever you personally play :/
The fault is not the dms', it is the players', as meldread pointed out. Anyone heard the sentence "Evil will always win because Good is dumb"? I guess that's exactly what happens. Already at the start of any good/evil rivalry, good is hampered because it can't do the same things as evil: assassinate, spy, ambush, etc. except for the less lawful characters. Evil can do anything. In addition, that tendency of going to pvp while they are in blatantly inferior conditions and not run away seem to be more proper of good chars than evil ones. This is not good, this is dumb. So good chars go to their death like obedient sheep and give all their consumables to evil, which then becomes more powerful, and so on. When it starts, it's hard to stop.
Why don't we all just get back in game and figure out IC what your character wants to do about it?
Good is easier to play than evil.
We can get back IG and will, I think however, there is a lot of value to this discussion. I'd like to point out though, I don't think its harder to play good or harder to play evil as such. I think its harder to win PvP as good, is all I really meant. You don't need to win at PvP either to have a successful character. One of my favorite characters never lifted a finger against even a fly and I'd say he was the most successful one I've had to date.
In my opinion, evil tends to engage in PvP more. Thus, they tend to get richer faster from robbing corpses, even if they are other evil corpses. But more importantly, when you win PvP, you impress DM's and that key custom loot is more likely to be in your future.
PvP is the -easiest- method to gain a DM's attention, imo. I know from experience that if I shoot a DM channel tell about wanting to talk to such and such NPC about entirely RP things I'm about 95% less likely to get a response then if I say, "Need a DM for PvP". Not to mention that even when I do want to just talk to an NPC, its usually easier to get an evil one on the line. I mean, not to make it too personal or anything, but I've been a very active member of the society for weeks now, and I haven't been wanded, or met Bell, or outfitted, or anything. I understand DM's are busy and those kinds of tasks seem dull, but very often what they are busy with is PvP and following characters that engage in it. [And before I ruffle any feathers with that, I would like to point out Sternhund's awesomeness on the forums, which is all I really need to do what I do anyhow. Its just an example.]
Now, when the typical evil lvl 5 fighter stands up to the typical good lvl 5 fighter (who hasn't been engaging in PvP often), there is almost always a huge item gap and it leans toward advantage evil. At least that's the way its been with my characters. I'd encourage DM's to actually take a inventory, so to speak, and compare the loot lvls between equivalent character lvls on the good/evil spectrum. If you find its pretty even, then let me know. I'll shut up, I promise. But if you do find there is a difference, then perhaps its time to consider the possibility that there is an actual discrepancy.
So, what kind of solutions are out there? Well first off, good PC's could start PvP more often. Personally, it just doesn't work for a lot of the good characters I play, but if anyone else out there wants to take up the mantle, by all means do.
Another solution would be for the DM team to invest some additional effort into rewarding non-PvP centered players, good and evil. This is where I think things like faction loot and NPC organization can be really helpful. If you're not particularly powerful, but you have powerful friends, it goes a long way. As much as player factions are great and can grow to be powerful, I'd say its not the norm for them to do so. Most player factions die out when their leader does and often that happens far before they should. For every Montezzi, there are about 10 failed player factions. DM factions give a balance, and I'd like to see more of them in general in EFU:A, good and evil.
Ok, so I weighed in today. I hope this is helpful to you all and doesn't sound like bitching. I'm having fun either way.
Just as a comment, it is easier to get a DM for PvP because PvP requires a DM instantly, usually, while talking to NPCs can wait. Imagine the person you want to PvP walks into a solitary area alone while usually surrounded by lots of guards. The DMs understand most people need to capitalize on that moment, instead of waiting 10-15 minutes while they finish off, and their targets leave.
Sometimes, talking to NPCs takes so loooong though.
Having spent a few weeks hoping to talk to a single NPC or two, its frustratingly slow.
I can personally gurantee that playing a good aligned character is not hard at all until there is no government or law system. Get a -good- government set up if it bothers you greatly, and don't be dumb about it. Just because your'e good doesn't mean your'e opposed to killing people underhandedly. If you don't like this Oleff guy or whatever his name is, get a group together IG to discreetly kill the guy. It's easy, I promise. There is such a thing as sneaky vengefull good-doers, ever hear of batman?
If your'e not patient enough to do that then get about four people to choose the paladin class with you and begin power-levelling, that's what I find most people do in times like this.
It's all cyclical.
Be more awesome than the bad guys and you'll have your own flock of peeps to drive your horse carriage and bring you to all the tea-parties you want.
Panama, the argument that good does not get into PvP as much is rather inane when people are complaining about how many evil PCs there are right now on the server. There's a plethora of evil targets to gain riches from if you believe PvP really gives such an advantage in terms of spoils. Efficient small group questing and effective sharing of resources is far more effective then PvP in getting rich.
If you're making the argument that the evil on the server currently has some insurmountable advantage then I again would strongly disagree. Level 8 PCs have weaknesses. I had one of the most powerful PvP characters on the server, in the form of a halfling bandit, she was level 9, and was taken out by a random level 5 confusion charge item fired by a man with big balls. Up until that point I had beaten into the dust level 9's, 10's, and various other groups of PCs. Then, suddenly, I was dusted by the effects of a DC 16 item.
Most important though, is that people must enjoy the struggle between good and evil, and sometimes they must settle on a shaky coexistence. There is evil in the world of YMPH, and while people can crusade against it, sometimes it is the need of good characters to just try to hold it at bay, mitigate its affects as best they can, and hope for better days. Not all good PCs need be champions, paragons of good, and slayers of all evil. I will give example of FRIAR TUCK in Robin Hood, who all would agree was an excellent man, but he did not stand against the Sheriff and die stupidly. He did what he could by collecting alms for the poor and holding out for the return of the king. He stuck to his code, and was never driven to join the false king for profit or gold, but instead humbly went about helping others as best he could.
Friar Tuck rocked the Sheriff's world! Then decided to give him a chance to gain some power so it would be more interesting in the long run. Sadly, the Sheriff was able to kill 1000 orcs a day, when Tuck was only able to kill 300 a day.
So the Sheriff got much more powerful much more quickly. Which is why Tuck had to band together with Robin Hood and the Merry Men PC faction.
Sadly, because the Sheriff was such a high level, and questing so often--he'd made many more friends with his PC faction and Robin Hood was quickly decimated by the Sheriff's superior numbers.
Luckly, Maid Marrion had a Wand of Confusion, and fu**ed up the Sheriff even though she was level three. She hit him in the middle of the inn while he was resting, and he was slain by the NPC AoO as he tried to run out of the tavern.
The End.
Nice. Wow. I'm just... speechless.
I was involve in this event, and personaly, i think it just great to have that kind of conflict on a rp server. The two sides was prepared and evryone was ready for something like that. The most organized and powerfull side win. It's fair no? Evils characters always look for power and twisted aliances and that time, they did it well. I dont understand where is the problem if one faction are larger, or have more supply and backup. Its a part of the game, and, buy the way, i was on the looser side.
To be fair I was involved in this event as well I had literally logged in to find someone my char is friends with being dragged off in chains in front of me so I did what I thought my char would do and got perma'd for it. As for loot the most impressive thing my char had was a wand of cure light wounds whereas most people seem to have entire bags full of magic potions of blur strength and the like. So yeah pvp for me is not fun. I also then find out that people in the bar that were killed earlier in the pvp are raised and that the ones that were taken away in chains people are trying to rescue with if not dm support there certainly not saying they cant do that. My char? fed to the fish so it seems that just about the only person permad in the whole thing was me.
Oro nailed it.
No he didn't.
I cannot agree that Oro's jaded mockery of a post sums up the limits of storytelling on a persistent world. Oroborous is a shining example of someone who is impotent in PvP but still manages to make the world richer with his excellent characterization and self aggrandizement. Yes, his style revolves heavily around DM support and NPC acknowledgment of his plans, but it is still one way of getting things done. It does not seem like that has been as effective here on EFU:A where DMs have had less time to hold people's hands. The power of EFU:A seems to lie in PC coalitions, and not entrenched NPC factions. No faction right now has some insurmountable consumable advantage or lead. That said, the Stygian Armada perhaps has the best faction support of any faction currently in that it offers one of the only 'safe' places on the island, and full plate. Is that a fair thing to discuss? Yes, it is. Is that some insurmountable advantage? No, it is not. I play on this server because I believe that the stories we can tell together can be truly fascinating and great. It wounds me a bit when I hear my fellow players simplify things to such rubbish.
While I am prone to view this train wreck like any other human being that adores watching a collision marked by the ruin of several cars and passengers (in this case posts and arguments) I am perilously close to locking this thread for fear of the direction it might take after the previous few posts.
I understand that you guys love talking about PvP and the PC's that are generally considered to be the most powerful at any given time, but it is difficult for me to see how functional and useful this thread is becoming...
I personally believe that all that has been said, will be said, and anything new to be added would be proved to the same point.
It is Cyclical.
Don't get your breaches to high.
If you've a problem with it, fix it.
The horse is on the ground, bleeding, and no longer feels pain. Cyclical, yes, that point has been well made so far. =)
Really, this is all cyclical.
ohshi-
Cynical, imo.
Gippy, pvp doesn't build "player coalitions", I've probably been incredibly successful at building player coalitions thus far. Which is why I'm working with two dozen different characters on a coalition.
PvP just gets you a gang of hanger-ons. Its why I don't rely on it to build attention. I just beat people in PvP when it happens.
A successful faction though will eventually require a DM to at least have time to respond to a letter, or do some small in-game work. We have a militia with over a dozen members, but it took three weeks to finally get a DM with time to let us set things up like uniforms and locks. And for a long time, without those simple little things-people took the militia less seriously than they should have.
Because while EfU:A is great for letting players build anything they want in the game world--you still need a DM to make what you build grow into the world.
Quote from: Oroborous;95466but it took three weeks to finally get a DM with time to let us set things up like uniforms and locks. And for a long time, without those simple little things-people took the militia less seriously than they should have.
This is really your own fault for being an idealist and refusing the help of well-established neighbouring settlements. When a colony decide to form on a new land, and for some reason they think they are self-sufficient, well, there has to be consequences.
This delay and not being taken seriously WAS the consequence of your actions. It's really great that you want to be in your own little niche and not work with any of the tool we put IG, but yes, the Settlement of the Ziggurat is a fledgling settlement that is in a survivor-esque mode which means they have the bare minimum at the moment.
But it seems that you fail to grasp this and blame it on DM inactivity.