They're supposed to be elite mercenaries, but are actually a laughingstock that has a long, long run of nearly unbroken pvp losses against everyone.
They're supposed to dislike magic but rely more on buffs than anyone.
At any given time over half of the server's pcs are opposed to them in some way - nature, order, docks. The initial arrests always result in some stocks time or fines which is intended only to encourage people to come back against them in the future.
Therefore I think it would be good to actually make them superior in close combat the way their organization is supposed to be, but actually isn't as things are now.
As a Stygian pc progresses in levels, or undertakes further challenges (rituals) to advance in his understanding of the techniques, he should gain more strength, constitution, and magic resistance, and perhaps even the ability to dispel his foes. However he should lose the ability to recieve spells from others, or drink potions other than healing, the more this progresses.
They're supposed to be elite close-combat warriors and opposed to using magic to win battles, so how about making them that way mechanically, as well as having abilities the average adventuring warrior doesn't have.
First of all. They do not dislike magic, they dislike the idea of using it to win a battle from afar. Gues they could hate the normal idea of using magic for buffing as well, but that's the small limitation in how nwn works, so I suggest just throwing that out of the window. Lets agree that they hate fireballs and siege style battles.
I do agree, certain things would require a little updating to lift their appearance and presence, but some of these are being pursued in game, and others are surely known to some extend. I do agree that they maybe could earn some small perks in progressing within Armada, but I would not go in great lengths with it.
I see that their prestige is made by the players, and as much as some may hate it, this may often come from success in combat, but that's how they roll, specialists on other hand also handle very secretive and more subtle matters which have not been accounted very often.
There have been pretty mechanically scary Stygians in the past. It really largely depends on the players joining their ranks
I think their armor could stand an upgrade at the very least. The last time I played a Stygian, the uniform was a couple of steps down from the armor I owned prior to joining. That was over a year ago.
Like Gavril and Anitolli where both very compant and scary Stygians who loved there job
I do think it's difficult to live up to the standards of what the faction is supposed to be.
Some minor bonuses against mages, their equipment could use some + bonuses to mind effecting stuff.
I do not feel like giving them overpowering loot advantage is the answer.
Part of it is that they have so many enemies at any given time. They are almost always outnumbered and that is a very difficult handicap to overcome. I am not sure how to overcome that except maybe that several players could agree on attempting to make Stygians at the same time and form a team.
I agree with nihm, letoing some useful feats and skills would make playing what a stygian is meant to be a lot easier. I mean the conclave mages already get some crazy additions to them as well as including the faction loot.
The Armarda has had some very very scary sharks. I wont list the most recent ones, but they have caused some serious damage.
Yes they are going through a hard spot right now, but the same can be said for the sons a month ago.
But with the increasing amount of active players on efu, we might just see a boost in people joining them. I know i will be trying for the armada on my next character.
Giving mechanical bonuses to a faction doest seem fair if they end up being overpowered we will see a great loss of characters. For instance look at battle marcher perk before it was nerfed.
I'm just remembering William Eldridge and trying to imagine him with some of these added bonuses....
Yeah, bad idea.
Conclavists do not get any crazy things added that anyone else in any faction (or outside a faction) can't earn outside the blood-bond, which is not crazy at all, it supplies no added "power" to the PCs unless earned through very long RP. Also those powers are things that a mage's spells can duplicate easily enough.
Fact is, it goes in phases, I've seen times where the Armada has had large advantages. Also, I've seen periods of times where they've killed criminals and traitors at a far faster rate than they themselves been killed.
As a faction they already have the largest advantage of all, a payroll....which means they're typically amongst the best supplied PCs on the PW. The problem is, and will always be, if you run into someone with fair supplies, and superior PvP skills, the Stygian will lose. Giving advantages to the extent where a player of low to average skills can beat a player of superior skill would be rather extreme advantages indeed, and would make those of superior skill pretty ridiculous for anyone to have to deal with.
A Stygians reputation should not only be based on his PvP ability. I can think of at least 4 -6 well known Stygians that were NOT PvP masters. It was their presence and the fear of what they MIGHT do that kept most PC's at bay around them.
Any way.. perhaps a store that is Armada only that they could buy gear at. This would not make them Mechanically better, but could give them the upper hand in 'basic' equipment. They are the elite fighting force on Ymph, they should have access to better quality weapons and armor than your average adventurer.
I'm not saying the quality of this gear should be to the caliber of DM loot. Just perhaps minor bonuses that most 'normal' gear does not have. It should also cost a decent penny. (they do get paid after all) This might give them a slight advantage in a minor way.
The Order is pretty much an enemy of everyone and has somehow thrived. It just is about players, and the greatest problem with the Stygian Armada is that players can't live up to the way the faction is conceived and DMs are reluctant to use NPCs to go and crush people that should be crushed. It is a flawed system. Either players must accept that their actions will bring NPC reprisals and they will inevitably die to NPCs... or the NPC portion of the faction needs to be toned down to be representative of PC strength at the time and be willing to adapt to the ups and downs that entails.
Being a Stygian I must comment on the following.
1 Stygians are not super humans.
2 Treanda despises arcane attacks and ranged weaponry because it dehumanizes war one should taste the blood of their enemies and feel their last breaths not standing in the back firing fireballs to kill scores of foes with no honor.
In short theyd have no problems with potions. I can vouch that very high ranking Armada members have drank potions.
3 Not all in the Armada are the same some do not care about the Trenada's policy on ranged weapons and magic.
4 Stygians can be beat and they can beat people. The Armada has had scores of victories its just the victories aren't often bragged about or loudly declared.
5 As far as wanting stronger Stygians feel free to join the Armada or be an adventurer working alongside the Armada I have been trying to involve PCS in assisting the Armada all the time.
I think that adding a few extra spells to the Tempus Disciple in the Citadel would be a great help to the Stygians. Just the basics: Magic weapon, Strength, Endurance, and Darkfire.
It'd be a gold-sink for them, and in the case where someone is mugging folks in the Warden's, they could get buffed up and good to go without scrambling to find a friendly wizard or cleric on the Ziggurat.
edit: Over the past few months, if you look at the big "crooks" that have given the Stygians lots of trouble, it's always been a combination of spellcaster and fighter-type: Aulgrim and Karida, Jim and Vargul, Lawthorn and Glacier-Man. Giving Stygians the ability to buy Magic Weapon and Darkfire wouldn't give them a fatal advantage in every case, just a (more) even playing field.
edit2: Plus, Stygians walking around the Ziggurat with flaming weapons is just a cool visual.
QuoteThey're supposed to be elite mercenaries, but are actually a laughingstock that has a long, long run of nearly unbroken pvp losses against everyone.
Very PC dependent. Very player dependent. It can be difficult to live up to the epectations when you are in a faction that is at auto-odds with lots of factions right off the bat.
That said, a lot of that was PC molded, and can be changed IMO through in game actions. There are badasses that bring factions together and badass characters that just spur lots of conflict. Perhaps there have been more of the later than the former?
Maybe the Armada should deal with being on the losing side of their battles ICly instead of OOCly.
Maybe them being outnumbered and losing all the time isn't a result of some form of inherent mechanical disability or poor work by players, but simply because the Armada consists of a bunch of belligerent and warmongering assholes that are at odds with every other major faction on the server because of their elitist ideals.
Quote from: Porkolt;213300Maybe them being outnumbered and losing all the time isn't a result of some form of inherent mechanical disability or poor work by players, but simply because the Armada consists of a bunch of belligerent and warmongering assholes that are at odds with every other major faction on the server because of their elitist ideals.
I disagree with Porkolt's first point because mostly the Stygian PCs aren't the ones pushing for OOC stuff. That said-
The point raised is 100% true and 100% perfect. The Armada does find itself in an awesome political position of late that does draw a lot of bad hands to it, so to speak. EFU Factions have a long history of heavy-handedness, and many PCs have grown to prosperity and complete prominence by either adding flames to the fire or attempting to mitigate political problems.
Quote from: Random_White_Guy;213302I disagree with Porkolt's first point because mostly the Stygian PCs aren't the ones pushing for OOC stuff.
I stand corrected.
Its up to the players to make strong Stygians, if successive Stygians fail the faction's image does fall. Its kind of unavoidable in some cases.
Tropic's idea might have merit, we'll discuss it. Stygians definitely won't be getting extra STR/CON/SR though.
Ghost is totally wrong on one thing and totally right on another.
The Conclave gets some AMAAAAZING bonuses both RP-wise (created by a ton of awesome PCs recently) as well as some seriously awesome powers and abilities from loot and being, well, super-magical. I would argue that for the past year, the Conclave has been far more "dominant" in the life of the server per-member than any other faction and its PCs have had more influence on the course of the server's history than any other faction. This is mostly due to RP reasons, but hey, that's part of the "power" you get in factions.
That being said, you're absolutely spot on correct that Stygians get the best bonus of all. Pretty good loot, lots of DM attention (positive and negative, but always fun), and PAY[/i]. Stygians are fine. Stygian PCs just struggle because of the sheer amount of enemies they face.
Caveat: I've never played a Stygian.
The Stygian Faction is hugely powerful and well rewarded (argubly the best rewarded of the main factions).
At various points its PC players have bossed the server. Right from De Olid through to more recent players.
These characters successes are down to the skill (and maybe some luck) of the players behind them, just as it should be.
Yes, the Stygians are an elite band, and when a DM possesses one of the named NPC's, Masemba for example, we all get to see how powerful they can be.
PC Stygians are initially at least, meant to be raw, new, recruits, not veterans.
We have had a tiny number of PC's get to the Captain rank in the Stygians. At that level I imagine (like any Favourd Son or Zeulisad) they would be rewarded by the DM's with perks, loot and other stuff to make them suitibly powerful.
I don't see so much of a problem. Yes, the faction can't have spellcasters other than Bards officially as members, but Loyalist mages and Clerics, for example Nihm's own Wizard, regularly support them. If I was playing a Stygian and bothered about that, I'd be trying to recruit spellcasters into the Militia as an official support unit for the Armada or putting the onus on suitable Patricians to provide magic. Not to mention that no matter how kicked in or inactive the Armada gets at any given time, as an organisation, it's always survived and prospered on the server. I'd argue that if Stygian PCs keep getting their asses handed to them, that this should actually reflect on the faction's power IC more, for example fewer Infantrymen about, and even more Militia.
The Stygian's badass rep is because they take and train tough nuts and have political power and deep pockets for bounties. It's not that they inject all their recruits with 50ccs of Badass Juice when they join to up their STR, it's that they don't take weak Aspirants, and have a tough initiation rite.
IMO the Conclave's biggest advantage that by design you typically end up with mage/thug smash teams, because Caliphars tend to recruit Consorts who are good bodyguards and quest partners, and they are meant to work as a pair, with rewards and penalties to encourage that. Tropic's idea for some PVP buffs would help fill the gap, as you have a faction with a lot of PVP going on but can't officially call in their own buffbots.
If the Stygians get their own faction buffbot, I hope everyone can agree that they should get cold damage applied to their weapons, not fire.
Having played two Stygians, I can agree with the problem that started the thread. I don't agree however that this should be solved by giving the players any kind of extra support or benefits. As has been said, players should themselves strive to be the elite Trenadan guard that they're made out to be, they shouldn't just automatically turn into them by passing the initiation.
This puts the pressure on players to play successfully, but that is something I for one approve of. This makes the Stygians a faction aside all others, a faction that requires that little extra both to get into and to stay alive in.
IMO more action from the lazy NPC stygians.
It takes pressure to turn coal into Diamond :)
Just the newb chiming in, here, but wouldn't giving them a buff bot just sorta steal all impetus for them to actually develop alliances with outside-the-faction PCs that can (and are willing) to offer that support? Or else it could be interesting to give them very limited buffs, but leaving the goods for PCs to provide ...
Most of the issues of "perception of the Armada" are ultimately the domain of the DM, though, if a lot of the really tough vets are NPCs. They are certainly within their rights to make the PCs do most of the grunt-work; however, increased presence of NPC Stygians (wherein they have clear numerical advantage via DM possession) in some instances would certainly take -some- of that weight off the PCs' shoulders, making them seem more as recruits and grunts than -the- Armada in entirety.
I only mention these things as a semi-outsider-looking-in, because there is definitely an element of every faction seeming like a gang ... though that really isn't necessarily a bad thing, by any estimation.
Cheers!
Our policy in EfU (in virtually all cases) is not to tilt the balances of PvP by introducing a NPC unless it is clearly their territory or they are already present. Stygian PCs get all the back-up in the world in fighting in the Ziggurat.
I think tropic's suggestion is the best so far, for what it's worth!
Stygians get a nice full plate and some /day items already that are quite nice. I've held most of thier armor at one point or another. They still have the upper hand even against the mugger type character thanks to some of these peices. It's just a matter of being both mechanically apt and LUCKY enough to get ahead of the game.
Making good allies also helps.
Quote from: Porkolt;213300Maybe the Armada should deal with being on the losing side of their battles ICly instead of OOCly.
Maybe them being outnumbered and losing all the time isn't a result of some form of inherent mechanical disability or poor work by players, but simply because the Armada consists of a bunch of belligerent and warmongering assholes that are at odds with every other major faction on the server because of their elitist ideals.
Yeah, this. Armada PC's CHOOSE to get killed. There's alot of different ways to play an Armadasman. Getting out there and getting PVP'd isn't necessarily the only way.
If people want to suggest more ways to help the Armada's members, feel free. We've had enough of contemplation about what players should or shouldn't do, what mistakes are made etc.
That stops.
I don't believe that tossing them a free leto feat or two as they progress would be a major issue on balance. I also believe that reworking 5 tier (IIRC) promotion system into something a little more simple would be nice for them, or at least give them bonuses on those promotions.
QuoteTouch of Stygia - The gauntlets of the Armada retain some of the chilling touch of Stygia, adding 1 cold damage to all attacks. Obtained after successful completion of "Spoiler" to become inducted.
Ymphian protector - Since before the days of Red Eleint and throughout their stay on Ymph, the Stygian Infantry has found themselves outnumbered in countless battles. Due to proper training in formation and defensive stances, infantrymen of the Armada may well protect themselves from these many foes. (Infantry only - gained at second honor - Shield of faith 1/day at caster level of their own level. )
Restless watchman - blah blah blah, specialists always alert for foes. +3 spot / listen in any "colony" territory. Rogues cunning or one with the land 1/day at second honor, specialist only.
A few small perks like that might work but might also lead to the chain reaction of other factions wanting similar things. I don't truly believe they need mechanical help so much as they need more specific things on their agenda. I think the PCs in that faction should be pressured to get out and conquer / transform the wilderness into Trenada's lands. I think they should be more relentless and strict in their LE flavor of justice and law, and I think they need to stop -letting- people push them around from all sides ICly.
A touch more of that mercenary attitude, quick to defend their Duke / Lord / code behavior on the NPC and PC side of things would go a long way in restoring what they were previously. Bring back the Burkden style Stygian that made them so great.
Itd help if everyone's second grandmother didn't want to kill Stygians. Seriously there was a point where Ortega realized if he killed every new arrival hed slay a future foe 90% of the time.
Quote from: Dr Dragon;213470Itd help if everyone's second grandmother didn't want to kill Stygians. Seriously there was a point where Ortega realized if he killed every new arrival hed slay a future foe 90% of the time.
I think this is more a symptom of the Armada being the villains du'jour, and being their allies doesn't always offer great rewards- the Armada has a reputation for using up or blowing off adventurers and outside help. Rather then directly strengthening the Armada, giving perks to Dominion centric PC's (and I mean really dominion centric, not just joe schmoe adventurer- Patricians at least) may make the Dominion a better destination for PC's, and give the Armada a better support structure.
I'd reckon the main issue is that factions sometimes shift focus from what may have been initially intended.
That is: docks was more or less to be a CE place, it turns out to be CG so called 'freedom fighters' saloon, except when a dominant truly evil PC makes up for it.
Stygian was to be LN elite, they are now percieved as dirty slavers pro-necromancy that are fair game especially when there's few stygian-PCs.
Enabling people to sell PC (even NPC) slaves to Stygians would probably have them be much more sympathic to the average adventurer who'd suddenly see they as allies for lucrative trade. But scripted slave-selling is probably not a good idea.
Helping out stygians might be also done by tweaking their 'enemies'. If anyone coming in the docks was regularly pickpocketed or mugged, then the strength of a lawful place would be clear as daylight.
Maybe allow PC stygians to call upon a Stygian 'henchman', same as summon or animal companion, useable only in Zig, Warden, Alleys, Gate, Squat ...would tip the odds in terms of 'don't mess with them'.
I don't think more equipement or spells would help, as when pvp is concerned, it's mostly a matter of the player's aptitude with pvp, and spells, potions, trinkets, are already common.
LPFF regarding summon henchman. I love it.. About time the lazy NPC stygians got off their bum. Its a bit like the old Spellgaurd summon animatron :)
With regards to what you said LPFF, the Stygians have always felt more LE than LN to me, compared to Sharboneth. Actively grabbing slaves, hiring a division of bloodthirsty monsters etc. They've got more Neutral, but their recent past was pretty damn Evil.
The Docks, at least in my time playing there attracted a lot of Good PCs because fight-for-your-corner anarchy was preferable to a law that seemed tailor-made to protect Evil PCs from retribution. The Docks gave opportunities to proactively do good with charity/development, and oppose Evil without landing a whacking bounty on your head for it on top of the conflict.
I think making the Dominion more of an ethical grey area would be good for reducing the number of inevitable enemies for the Armada. If the Armada get a chance to look like the good guys on occasion by punishing obvious Dominion villains for being Unacceptably Evil as well as busting rebels and pissed off wilds PCs, there's more chance for a range of concepts to rise to the top in the faction, without being hit by multiple vendettas.
For example, the whole "Armada loves necromancy" thing seems to have come about because undead are treated as property and prominent necromancers know they'll be protected by the Stygians. I'd argue the counter to that would be to make "legitimate" undead harder to come by. For example, if you don't have a clear legal claim to the body you used (and you're not going to on the default Animate Dead spell or Skull Familiar usually), you're guilty of Grave Robbery, or it's fair game for smiting as nobody's property. I know, I know, "so suggest that IC" but Bill's no politician. Besides, you'd think that sort of thing would be frowned on by the upper echelons of the Armada as fighting through puppets, not like men.
Heavily restrict or ban something that's a popular Evil pursuit, and suddenly it's possible to bust PCs for going beyond the law or even frame them. That'll lead to more villainous characters working from dingy hideouts rather than hiding behind the Armada and so worsening the Armada's rep with other factions. More characters working on political attacks or investigations *with* the Stygians despite their authoritarian reputation, rather than defecting to the docks or wilds, or ignoring problems.
I think the Stygian Armada has a lot of potential, and always has. You get your hands into some interesting plots, you get to meet a whole assortment of villains, heroes, etc.
With what LPFF stated, I think I'll agree with him. In my eyes, I view the conflict between the Docks & Dominion similar to England & the American Colonies. Tyranny versus weak, rugged rebels. As we all know that the docks are supposed to be extremely chaotic and filled with thieves, cutthroats, and so on, we rarely (sometimes we do) see that.
It is up to the player to make his Stygian PC strong and reputable, but I think their biggest weakness is the fact that the Dominion sees too few loyalists, and the docks sees far too many.
Quote from: VanillaPudding;213466Touch of Stygia - The gauntlets of the Armada retain some of the chilling touch of Stygia, adding 1 cold damage to all attacks. Obtained after successful completion of "Spoiler" to become inducted.
This would be awesome if Stygian wasn't derived from the river Styx which does not exist in FR, and if the region of Stygia wasn't from the universe of Conan the Barbarian.
Sorry, I'm being pedantic again.
Quote from: Porkolt;213539This would be awesome if Stygian wasn't derived from the river Styx which does not exist in FR, and if the region of Stygia wasn't from the universe of Conan the Barbarian.
Sorry, I'm being pedantic again.
And wrong. Stygia is the fifth layer of Hell and it has the river Styx.
Pedantic + Arrogant + Wrong = Bad Mix.
Er... Damn the people that put all these false ideas in my head!
Quotegiving perks to Dominion centric PC's (and I mean really dominion centric, not just joe schmoe adventurer- Patricians at least) may make the Dominion a better destination for PC's, and give the Armada a better support structure.
I agree.
IMO people go to factions for many different reasons, but stay due to:
1. RP fun and interaction
2. Offer support and growth for PC (loot / xp / gold)
3. Don't have the perception of pinching characters into too similar a mold
4. Offer opportunity to go after solid PC goals.
The first two are mainly a result IMO of PCs in the group, or the perception of past PCs that have accomplished things. The last two are more a result of the actual faction delineators (ex: no X, Y or Z, but yes A, B, and C)
From my experience if one of the above is lacking, it is usually ok and the PC stays. If more than one is perceived as lacking, PCs will leave the faction, allow a character to die, or not app for the faction.
Faction momentum is also important. I think this faction has a great history, and is one I would app to be in if I didn't already have a great character I was really into. That said, some things that can help a slow faction are faction plots, membership recruitment (got to get those numbers up usually above 3 active for good IG presence and interaction within the faction), regular play, interesting characters...the list is long.
Anyhow, must my two cents.
As cool as it is, I'd honestly say get rid of the Induction. A little jaded due to losing my last cool PC on it, but anything that has chance of instantly ending a PC, no matter how cool it is, on a basis of Gear/Supplies/Levels/Cleverness,
Kind makes you shy away from things.
Quote from: Letsplayforfun;213501I'd reckon the main issue is that factions sometimes shift focus from what may have been initially intended.
That is: docks was more or less to be a CE place, it turns out to be CG so called 'freedom fighters' saloon, except when a dominant truly evil PC makes up for it.
Stygian was to be LN elite, they are now percieved as dirty slavers pro-necromancy that are fair game especially when there's few stygian-PCs.
Enabling people to sell PC (even NPC) slaves to Stygians would probably have them be much more sympathic to the average adventurer who'd suddenly see they as allies for lucrative trade. But scripted slave-selling is probably not a good idea.
Helping out stygians might be also done by tweaking their 'enemies'. If anyone coming in the docks was regularly pickpocketed or mugged, then the strength of a lawful place would be clear as daylight.
Maybe allow PC stygians to call upon a Stygian 'henchman', same as summon or animal companion, useable only in Zig, Warden, Alleys, Gate, Squat ...would tip the odds in terms of 'don't mess with them'.
I don't think more equipement or spells would help, as when pvp is concerned, it's mostly a matter of the player's aptitude with pvp, and spells, potions, trinkets, are already common.
Tried hireing adventurers to be slavers....Pcs were not interested.
Quote from: Random_White_Guy;213552As cool as it is, I'd honestly say get rid of the Induction. A little jaded due to losing my last cool PC on it, but anything that has chance of instantly ending a PC, no matter how cool it is, on a basis of Gear/Supplies/Levels/Cleverness,
Kind makes you shy away from things.
I also happen to agree. The Induction is pretty stupid I really think it ought to be replaced with just making it harder to gain recommendations.
I would make the Induction optional, if any thing; if you guys are talking about El Gulgotha, that does sound really hard, but really fun too.
The hard induction scripted quest is the coolest thing about the Armada.
It isn't hard though, in fact it's very easy with a slight bit of preparation.
Quote from: Howland;213581The hard induction scripted quest is the coolest thing about the Armada.
It isn't hard though, in fact it's very easy with a slight bit of preparation.
Does the Armada give any hints what sort of preperation may be required?
Quote from: Howland;213581The hard induction scripted quest is the coolest thing about the Armada.
It isn't hard though, in fact it's very easy with a slight bit of preparation.
Hardness was never a concern, more the Lag/Etc that can result in some pretty unfortunate Perma.
That said I honestly think the Stygians are very well off. It's a recent trend of little to few powerful Dominion supporters. Lords, Patricians, Churches, etc. have often supported the Stygians in the past.
These things go in Cycles.
Cycles tbh