Neither of these are serious problems, but just throwing them out there as they came to mind:
One
Remember to role-play your stats. If you anticipate playing any kind of leadership role, having 8 or less charisma is not very good :/
In general I'm proud that most EFU players do roleplay their stats, but it's still disappointing to see an otherwise cool PC have somewhat skewed ability scores.
Two
Although this is really up to you, I think in general it's good to avoid "flash in the pan" characters and generally take a character as a serious and somewhat long-term proposition. Of course sometimes you can't help when an ending come, but I do think there's a knack for learning how to make a character last and sort of build up to become an institution. I personally think it's good when PCs become institutions for a good amount of time, and would encourage players to aspire towards that.
Lol, RwG could need some help with point two. You always die before I get My fair share of the awesome :P
It is disappointing to put time into players and characters on the DM client that simply die or go crazy (and die.)
Quote from: johanmaxon;214316Lol, RwG could need some help with point two. You always die before I get My fair share of the awesome :P
RwG takes offense at that, sir!
While I am widely and to some irritatedly renown to have a turnover rate I think it's just a matter of opinion. While being an institutional character is all well and good, to address your concern Johan: I'd rather have a PC that I enjoyed greatly for a wild and crazy two weeks of action, intrigue, and excitement that ended in death than a month long PC that I get bored with. That said I have had some month-long PCs who were involved in a lot of cool stuff.
I'd say what bugs me the most is seeing people running around with 2-3 PCs rather than focusing on one main. The best suggestion I can give is to throw yourself entirely into one, sole PC to focus on. RP, quest, PvP, DM quest, forum work, diary work, anything. One PC can be fleshed out far greater if you don't have 3 you hop around on at will.
That said Big H raises some very valid points. It always irks me to learn that the boisterous, widely regarded faction leader and wannabe heroic figure has 10 charisma.
Usually I try to establish it in regards to the size of leadership.
10 charisma, the average person, could lead one or two PCs. If you've got a good friend, you could give them some ideas to push along. "Hey man, that's cool but wouldn't you rather head on out with me and have some fun?"
12 tends to lead a few more, I could easily see a military or mercenary unit being lead by a 12 cha character. Not exactly "BRAVEHEART", but competent enough to inspire loyalty in a small group of PCs capable of carrying out orders that they are given. "Boss wants us to carry out these two objectives and round up the troublemakers".
14 charisma I think is when the more inspiring PCs start to shine. The sort of people who could give a public speech without sweating bullets, leading a group of 6+ people, or organizing and empowering people with his beliefs. A lot of priestly sorts, politicians, military leaders, and more I'd hope to see in the 14 charisma range.
QuoteI'd say what bugs me the most is seeing people running around with 2-3 PCs rather than focusing on one main.
This. I used to regularly play 3 PCs when we were in the UD. One main, one side, one I was leveling up a bit so I wouldn't have to hit the newbie quests when my main died.
The advantage to multiple PCs as a beginner to the server is getting to try out different classes and strategies and get the hang of things mechanically. The disadvantage is it really hits your RP. I'd recommend if you do play an alt, have one that doesn't involve themselves in plots really and keep it as your "smash quests or explore" char.
Sir RwG, it was no way meant as a serious thing. Therefor the :P
I thought it would flatter you saying I never have time to get some of the awesomeness :'(
I admit i am guilty of making 'flash in the pan' PCs but i assure you this ends NOW! The new SilentSouth is out and about, I am going to be keeping my current PC as long as i possibly can, alot of thanks to Egon as he really made this happen for me.
RwG's infamous demises are results of his actions, it does not mean he takes them any more lightly.
Point here is that you don't intentionally go about with the ready ideal that it does not matter a dime if you go rampage and die, since the character would not matter to you at all. Rather aim to make a concept you are enjoying and still feel like you'd want it to last.
And I also encourage people to avoid alts. Efu is not large enough for two characters from same player. You will get involved to matters that you should not be necessarily aware of even OOC on your other character. Rather find that one concept and move on to the next one after it's time comes to an end.
Absolutely true about the alts.
I do not think the point can be stressed enough. I have never in my time on EfU (looking at about 5 years now, on and off) seen a player with TWO great characters at once. Never. Not once.
I'd go so far as to say I've not even seen anyone play an alt WHILE playing an amazing character the way the character deserves to be played. Every now and then an old, awesome character's player will want to freshen things up and fool around with a new concept, usually just mechanically. Maybe it's cathartic, but that doesn't help the server's story at all!
So try to have a little self-discipline because the rewards in the end are almost always better.
For full disclosure, I'm a player who tends to play characters a bit too long. But that's another topic.
Addendum:
Sorry, something of a derailing here. Howland's post is spot on. Flash characters are fun for the week (for the server) but then, kaput, done. The truly impressive stories don't (and shouldn't even if they could) get told in a week.
One thing to consider is that if you're burning through characters at a rate off knots because you find that you're getting quickly bored, it may be because you need to slow down a little. Often people will just blindfire trying character after character waiting for one that will just "click" and it rarely ever happens like that.
If this is happening to you, when you kill off your next character. Take a 2 day break from the server, loiter in the chatroom and the forums, and then sit down with a pen and paper and spend some time really thinking about a character.
A lot of people seem to come up with one character "hook" which they will base their whole char around (My character hates race X, my character is a cyricist, my character wants to rule the son's of Sabuth) etc etc. Which is all well and good, but you will often find that when your character is not pursuing things to do with that single hook, they becomes a rather boring and 2 dimensional person who isn't very fun to play. And if that hook/goal becomes impossible/fails then the character becomes redundant.
A good, robust character that can really get stuck into the world around them takes time. You will often find that the longer you spend planning a character, the longer you will find him enjoyable to play. You have plenty of resources to hand, be they Forgotten Realms lore, other players or even a member of the DM team can help you too.
Another PnP system called Legend of the 5 rings, has a great section on making a good character in it's books:
QuoteAlthough the process of creating a character mechanically is important. The most important aspects of your character have very little to do with mechanics at all. What kind of character to do you want to play? What are his goals? What is the most important thing in the world to him? These are questions you should ask yourself pose yourself 20 questions....
The best type of questions are the abstract ones, ones that to answer you have to explain out a lot of other things too, the more you explain and plan, the deeper and more complex and therefore more interesting your character becomes.
1. If your character were given 500gp, how would he spend it?
2. What is your character's most sacred possesion?
3. What advice would you give to your character?
Questions like that really start making you think about who your character is and why he his the way he is.
Anyway, I'm rambling now.
Mph. While I am largely in agreement about alts, sometimes when I am between mains I will fool about with two or three different concepts. Then I go for the one I like best and the alts fade into the background, possibly never to return.
Having one single hook for your character may be a bit too limiting. Personally I like to go the other way around, find some defining event in the character's history and base the character's future actions on what the character brought away from that. Solace was an escaped slave who resisted re-enslavement so much that once she was sentenced to slavery in a Dominion court, she asked for (and received) the death sentence instead. Ulfrin was a mage who had once badly abused her magical power and afterwards everything in her life focused on that all use of magic had consequences. Deirdre was an ex-soldier in an army that had defended her home against various destructive forces and she became a defender of the colony.
Clucky raises some interesting ideas and I will be trying some of them out. My current attempt at a main is not clicking yet but that may be due to not having had the time or luck to run into other people to RP much with yet.
My bad.
As a player who has consistently played low stat characters. I think the dm team should clearly outline what they expect from certain stats, 8 con int charisma, 10 con int charisma etc.
I find charisma to be the hardest stat to portray, it doesnt matter what you put your charisma score as in my experiance. Because leadership, socail abilities and general charismatic value are all something that is an ability of the player which are then passed through into the character.
Other players will follow other peoples characters because they either enjoy the players role play, or know from experience they can bring allot of new spice and conflict.
You can be the harshest, meanest ugliest bastard on efu, and yet somehow people will want to hang around with you. Scum of the earth or not no matter how you treat the people around you, people will follow you. If you have that innate charismatic ability as a player to make it worth peoples while.
It's also a matter of perception. One man's 8 charisma is another mans, 10, or maybe even 12. One mans 16 charisma is another mans 10.
Originally posted by MORT
QuoteLots of people have been asking for help in portraying their statistic unto the roleplaying world. I've wrote a small guide in order to help these people.
Quote:
PROBALITY BOUNDARIES (PR)
Upon character creation, the PR is a guideline table to help you characterize how your character's statistics could be represented into your character's personality. This grading scheme can be applied to any of the six primary attributes. I believed this might be helpful to avoid the pitfall of having overly exagerated scores which are not represented properly on your character's development (or not well integrated with your character).
- 6-7 Very poor
- 8-9 Poor
- 10-11 Satisfactory
- 12-13 Good
- 14-15 Very Good
- 16-17 Excellent
- 18-19 Outstanding
- 20-21 Exceptional
- 22-23 Unique
Quote:
STRENGTH (STR)
Strength measures your character's muscle and physical power. It is represented, in majority but no solely, by the amount of muscle mass on your character.
You apply your character's Strength modifier to:
• Melee attack rolls.
• Damage rolls when using a melee weapon or a thrown weapon. (Exceptions: Off-hand attacks receive only one-half the character's Strength bonus, while two-handed attacks receive one and a half times the Strength bonus. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies to attacks made with a bow that is not a composite bow.)
• Climb, Jump, and Swim checks. These are the skills that have Strength as their key ability.
• Strength checks (for breaking or prying doors open, pushing boulders, lifting heavy loads, ).
Example Reasoning:
For low scores: Frail, small frame, Broken arm, war injury, diplomatic/scholarly focus (son of a noble, merchant, scholar, etc.), elderly age or very young, etc.
Quote:
DEXTERITY (DEX)
Dexterity measures hand-eye coordination, agility, reflexes, and balance.
You apply your character's Dexterity modifier to:
• Ranged attack rolls, including those for attacks made with bows, crossbows, throwing axes, and other ranged weapons.
• Initiative : The speed at which your react reacts.
• Armor Class (AC), provided that the character can react to the attack.
• Reflex saving throws, for avoiding fireballs and other attacks that you can escape by moving quickly.
• Balance, Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Ride, Sleight of Hand, Tumble, and Use Rope checks. These are the skills that have Dexterity as their key ability.
Example Reasoning:
For low scores: Clumsy, slow to react, injury to a leg, broken tibia or femur, corpulent, etc.
Quote:
CONSTITUTION (CON)
Constitution represents your character's health and stamina.
You apply your character's Constitution modifier to:
• Each roll of a Hit Die (though a penalty can never drop a result below 1â€"that is, a character always gains at least 1 hit point each time he or she advances in level).
• Fortitude saving throws, for resisting poison and similar threats.
• Concentration checks. Concentration is a skill, important to spellcasters, that has Constitution as its key ability.
• Stamina. (Although not enforced, it is very nice to see a character with low constitution get tired after running a short distance).
Example Reasoning:
For low scores: Diseased, frail, slavery-induced, lack of survival training, lack of hardship in youth, etc.
Quote:
INTELLIGENCE (INT)
Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons.
You apply your character's Intelligence modifier to:
• The number of languages your character knows at the start of the game.
• The number of skill points gained each level.
• Appraise, Craft, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Forgery, Knowledge, Search, and Spellcraft checks. These are the skills that have Intelligence as their key ability.
Example Reasoning:
For low scores: A difficulty to learn. Brain injury. Slow to reason. Takes a lot of time to take into account each argument. Speech impediment could be a way to appear as such, but hardly represents intelligence as a whole. Lack of knowledge (lore) about diverse situations. Not being able to read/write, etc.
Quote:
WISDOM (WIS)
Wisdom describes a character's willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. While Intelligence represents one's ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one's surroundings. If you want your character to have acute senses, put a high score in Wisdom. Every creature has a Wisdom score.
You apply your character's Wisdom modifier to:
• Will saving throws (for negating the effect of charm person and other spells).
• Heal, Listen, Profession, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks. These are the skills that have Wisdom as their key ability.
Example Reasoning:
For low scores: Lack of motivation. Unreliable. Poor Judgment. Also encompasses sensory perception, therefore poor eye-sight (roleplayed), poor hearing (roleplayed), etc are also valid ways of portraying your character's weaknesses. Playing a character that will easily be tricked is also one way of roleplaying this score (i.e. walking into ambushes IC'ly knowing full well OOC'ly that you are about to be assassinated). Do mistakes of judgment that can risk your character or put your character in hot-water is another way of portraying a low attribute.
Quote:
CHARISMA (CHA)
Charisma measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting.
You apply your character's Charisma modifier to:
• Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, and Use Magic Device checks. These are the skills that have Charisma as their key ability.
• Checks that represent attempts to influence others.
• Turning checks for clerics and paladins attempting to turn zombies, vampires, and other undead.
Example Reasoning:
For low scores: Lack of charm, bad manners, bad social habits, unable to integrate himself or herself to groups, reject, acting in an awkward manner, shyness, voicing your comments in a whisper by fear of being rejected by others. Gross mutation/appearance and smell are a really a bare minimum in a roleplaying a low score. It's best if it is reflected within your role-play. Of course, being a jerk is one-way to get others against you, but remember that this is a game and some people may take your comments personally so I would suggest taking another way in portraying your score.
Just remember when doing your attributes at creation the history beyond your character's attributes and their probability. It's normal to want to play a 20 or 18 primary attribute at start, but try to give a good reason in your creation for doing so. Maxing an attribute is not a requirement for success on EfU (I think all of my past successful characters on efu had no stats above 16 at creation).
Similarly with feats, It's always nice to give feats that make sense for your character at the cost of mechanical strength.
A few examples:
- The Thayan Wizard with Courteous Magocracy;
- The Banite Soldier with Iron Will to symbolize close-mindness.
- The Talona Worshiper with Resist Disease to symbolize her/his link to Talona.
These are just suggestions and not requirements, but I think you'll find a great pleasure in devising concepts which make sense both from a story-perspective and a mechanical-one. Merging the two to make a creative concept is truly rewarding by itself. You'll be happier about your own characters and find them more appealing in this way as they will feel more unique and less like mechanical powerhouse that anyone can replicate.
Another thing to consider about Charisma, is that it doesn't necessarily equate to looks and/or behavior, directly. Have a scan through the monstrous manual, and you'll see the sorts of beasts that have a high charisma, vs. those that have a low charisma. High Charisma is all about force of personality and presence... someone or something that is very scary is also more likely to be high-charisma....
A low charisma soldier is less likely to have that appeal. He may not be ugly, he may not be particularly mean ... he's more likely to be unassuming. i.e. he's probably the guy in the bar that you get in a fight with, thinking you'll trounce, only to get a taken on a quick trip to the healer.
Some folks have great simple descriptions of PCs I assume to be low Charisma, on here.
More institutionalized PCs please.
I think one of the difficulties with avoiding flash-in-the-pan characters is that, often, a character is planned as an institutional character, but then certain IC opportunities arrive that the character just wouldn't pass up.
That, coupled with a lack of survivability/slipperiness, can often render what would have been an institutional character a flash-in-the-pan one.
I definitely agree, though, that more "stability" characters would be very beneficial, but there is certainly a trade-off that comes with that. The bravery vs. survivability slider has to be calibrated just right, and sometimes errors happen!
Coming from a player that tends toward the "longer lived" PC's, I can say that often it ends up very disheartening.
What I mean, is from 'this' side of the monitor, those that are 'flash in the pan' tend to garner more attentions then those that stick around. Part of it is, in order to stick around you tend to do a slow build. You gather allies, slowly build up enemies, and work diligently at perhaps what some call mundane things.
I can't tell you how many times I've seen characters come in, and a week later be dead, but the amount of 'loot' they have is astounding.
This sends a message to a lot of us that it's what the server wants. It wants the "Flash in the Pans" not the long lived characters that may not have attacked or PvP'd every character they have ever met.
I can say on average my characters have lived 6+ months real time, and in that 6 months I don't think a single one would be called "Looted out".
So perception is the problem here. It is perceived that if you Live fast and die hard, you will be rewarded. Because, let's admit, on EFU the reward for most, is DM loot.
I agree with Wildlings. If players see more and specialized DM attention going to the so-called "flash-in-the-pan" characters, they assume that is what the DMs want to see and therefore reward. I know that I've felt this way.
Tangentially, and not to derail the thread, but the same applies to evil characters from the perspective of good players. Evil characters, and not always the ones creating oodles of conflict, tend to be rewarded by the DMs more than their goodly counterparts.
As my rule of thumb, one that I haven't been particularly good at following myself lately is; Look at the skills that involve Charisma. If you've got a low charisma, do those badly. If you try and lie throw in some "Er-"s and "Uh-"s and "Yeah- That's right- That's how it happened"s.
When you try and intimidate people say something stupid. No matter how giant you are your threatening presence will be ruined when you say "Give me that gold or- uh- bad stuff might happen! All sorts of bad things! Like- uh- punching!"
When you try and persuade make it sound humorously unappealing; "Join me and get mountains of gold..! Although- uh- I don't really have gold yet, and there's a good chance you'll die before you get any- But if I find a mountain of gold you'll get some!"
Those are some pretty bad examples, but they're the best I can think of right now.
QuoteI agree with Wildlings. If players see more and specialized DM attention going to the so-called "flash-in-the-pan" characters, they assume that is what the DMs want to see and therefore reward. I know that I've felt this way.
I'm sorry I don't think this is accurate.
The first and best way to earn loot is to earn it, which does mean proactivity and such.
Speaking for myself, I tend to make loot for characters that last for a longer period of time (or that is earned in some way).
Speaking someone with the perspective of the dm client, the PCs with the most loot almost invariably are those that have been around for a decent amount of time.
QuoteTangentially, and not to derail the thread, but the same applies to evil characters from the perspective of good players. Evil characters, and not always the ones creating oodles of conflict, tend to be rewarded by the DMs more than their goodly counterparts.
Definitely not true.
QuoteBecause, let's admit, on EFU the reward for most, is DM loot.
This is particularly absurd.
I can only tell you the perspective of myself, and many that I have spoken with.
You may not agree, but you have a different perspective than the average player.
I play this game because I love the story telling, I love the interactions with the other players. DM loot is a bonus. But, I can't tell you how many times I've been in a conversation that started with.. "We need to do X to get some DM loving.."
My signature says it all. Never expect, always hope. I don't ever expect anything from the DMs, do I hope that eventually I will somehow manage to do something that some DM will find interesting, sure. We all do.
QuoteSo perception is the problem here. It is perceived that if you Live fast and die hard, you will be rewarded. Because, let's admit, on EFU the reward for most, is DM loot.
I did say most. You may not see it, you may not notice it, but that is what it looks like.. at least as I said, "from This side of the monitor".
I tended to follow characters (flash pan or not) that were entertaining to watch and interact with. I tended to give those entertaining and well RPd characters with goals special @ quests, altered quests, and rewards.
Since the above is in my past, I tend to have my PC follow around PCs who are entertaining to watch and interact with. Those tend to be the same sort of PCs that end up being well RPd with goals, and also get special questies and rewards.
I'll probably keep doing that, come to think of it, that being the most fun I can pack into a sometimes limited amount of play time.
Edit to Add:
Howland's own thoughts on fun characters:
http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19553
Keep finding good tidbits in old posts. This quote is at the bottom of the above linky, but I think was worth posting on it's own.
QuoteHowland said: In addition to everything above, I plan on paying particular attention to characters that work on buildings things or managing to have an impact on the game world that is longer term.
I like both myself; long lived characters are fun to campaign around with, or even role play fear of, and short lived ones add spice to the older lived ones, or in themselves can do damage or help a great deal in their time. =]
Some times playing the monster for a short while impacts just as well as a stable good guy, and some times the long lived bad guy is only defeated by the flash in the pan sacrifice of a short lived good guy.
Could we get a very precise definition of a "Flash in the Pan" character?
With my understanding of it so far I'm tempted to say that my current character is a flash in the pan sorta guy with the current definition that I'm working with; A character who does alot of interesting and noticeable stuff really fast, which causes him to get killed early on in life by people with opposing ideals. The interesting stuff being the "flash" which fizzles out very quickly because the character dies.
How accurate is that definition?
I'm always up to try and improve the quality of my characters, and it'd definately help to know exactly what to try and avoid.
Speaking here as who has ran PCs lasting months more often than not, I've noticed the following things are the top deaths, and ones I try and plan to avoid.
- Boredom
- PVP losses
- Frustration
Boredom:Often a result of making a PC with a single clear goal, and being unable to accomplish it due to lack of support, DM help or resources. The key there is to have secondary goals or be willing to change. Sure, you wanted to be a leader, but a 14 CHA PC makes a great ambitious lieutenant. You didn't plan to become a merchant, but since you've got an Inn Room with 5 slot storage, you could sell halfplates from it and then realise you could build that up to a business working out of a Guildhouse? The second example is how one of my past PCs went from scholar to merchant after the Archaeological society folded.
PVP Losses
If you go in with heavy conflict right off the bat, you're likely to get hit back at and possibly killed off fairly rapidly. If you want to avoid this, then characters than can bargain and compromise their way out and know when to switch sides (like Capricious's legendarily devious and long-lasting char Bailey Bhonn) are a good call. Or PCs that go in for indirect conflict like supplying/buffing one side covertly, or simply back off and let someone else kill their enemy first. If you want a PC to have a lot of conflict and survive, consider not having a "Death before dishonour" mentality.
Frustration
Get killed on a quest, ragequit the PC, never realise how far they could have gone. My current PC, Bill, once died 4-5 times to ridiculous "hearing past invis" glitches on Goblins, but I took the bloody-minded approach of doing everything I could to get my gear and levels back, up to hiring a L7 wizard to buff me so I could loot my pack. The best cure for this one is if you get killed from Total Bullshit; respawn or get ressed, collect your pack, and take a couple of days off from the PC. Then come back and remember why the char is fun and you're glad you didn't quit. Trust me on this, my last couple fo PCs have seen L8 come and go enough times to lag, bugs and multi-crits.
Quote from: RagingPurpleGiant;214561I'm always up to try and improve the quality of my characters, and it'd definately help to know exactly what to try and avoid.
I've liked all of your characters so far. You attempted big things with them, and I enjoyed Bruce Almshavens existence a great deal.
With EfU, it's a case of 'who dares wins'. The rewards for attempting risky endeavours outweigh the rewards for remaining in mediocrity forever. Unfortunately, risky endeavours sometimes go wrong and end up with people dead. But you're playing an ADVENTURER, not a farmer, or a goat herder.
I have always said that I believe that playing a character on EfU is like writing your own story, and has a beginning, a middle and an end. You have to have a final goal, and a path to get there. This could be anything. It can take a long time to achieve, or it can be done in days or weeks.
Walking the path to getting what you want is the entertaining bit, which is why when people get to ~level 9-10 they start to drift off and get bored, as by that point they have mostly achieved all they can.