For a 4th circle spell this seems rather weak even with it's bypassing of SR. It's a single target spell that does fireball damage with a save on a 1 round duration side effect. It -also- requires a ranged touch attack to succeed, which isn't something Wizards have a real advantage at.
SR and the slight chance it isn't simply crushed by a dispel or two earlier in the fight, or is simply ignored due to it being a level 7+ caster, very rarely comes in to play in terms of typical PvM and PvP (the things most spells are balanced around on EFUA). Also, most people do not have access to Globe of invulnerability but only the minor version.
I would suggest that these spells at least lose the ranged touch attack property, and possible become AOE spells with the loss of ignoring spell resistance. They would not be able to be empowered due to the level range here, and would still do less damage than an empowered version of many level 2 spells but add a single round side effect! (Combust, electric loop, melf's acid arrow, SEARING FLAME or w/e that other new spell is)
There's no roll for ranged touch attacks afaik.
Well, there is.
Nooblives.
You neglected to mention that the spell doesn't carry a reflex save for damage. That's huge.
I want to hear others' opinions. If voices are coherently in support of the change, then I may remove the touch attack.
I would sign under VP's suggestion, but I'd change them other way-
Remove the ranged touch, make it do 1d8, or even 2d6 dmg/CL, leave it a single target... but add a Fort or Will Save to halve the dmg.
Must just be some spells that had their attack roll removed.
IMO leave it as it is minus the touch attack.
I can see casters with Blind Fight popping up.
But after a discussion on IRC now, I changed my mind. Leave the Touch Attack as it is. Without the touch attack, two of these / round, hasted, by a level 9 caster = 18d6 in face, and possibly a stun thing for a finishing spell.
DUn dun dunananana- I support fishy in this. As thats moronicly amazing for ignoreing SR
This is fine as it is, if you worry about missing ranged touch attacks, cast True Strike.
If you have a decent dex you should have a decent ranged attack. Casting true strick will give you an auto +20 to hit. Range touch are amazing because you are making the roll againt their save instead of having them make a roll against your spell dc. Plus with Range touch attacks if you hit with the attack you hit for full power there is no way to half the dam it's full hit or full miss. Usually most people have a rather low + to Will, Fort and Ref saves compared to a their roll against a dc check.
Generally, guaranteed full damage (per "in the max range", rather than "as per maximized") is a whopper of a benefit... a reason it's mainly limited to a profoundly beatable and somewhat lower-damage spell like magic missile.
Ranged touch is a price one pays to accommodate another benefit -- in this case damage and potential for a round of stun/whatever, without the target's ability to Spell Resist. Besides, who in the world is really great at avoiding a ranged touch? Rogues, that's about it.
Seems like a spell you won't often use in pvp, but best to save it for when you know you're going toe to toe with some drow. Really, I'd be leery of such a change.
A bit of maths for you:
A level 9 caster = 4 BAB. +2 base Dex mod. +2 Cat's Grace. +3 Bless/Aid/Divine Favour.
= 11 ranged touch AB.
Typical touch AC = 10 + Dex Mod.
Yes, there is Imp Invis concealment too, but really Invis Purge/Dispel deals with that.
Displacement? Dispel.
Not to mention this being a level 4 spell, so a GSF'd DC would be what - 25? 26? Pretty high chance of stun too.
Leave it as it is!
I agree with those in favor of leaving it as is. From what I've been reading it's working like it's supposed to.
Quote from: FishyBusiness;214789A bit of maths for you:
A level 9 caster = 4 BAB. +2 base Dex mod. +2 Cat's Grace. +3 Bless/Aid/Divine Favour.
= 11 ranged touch AB.
Typical touch AC = 10 + Dex Mod.
Yes, there is Imp Invis concealment too, but really Invis Purge/Dispel deals with that.
Displacement? Dispel.
Not to mention this being a level 4 spell, so a GSF'd DC would be what - 25? 26? Pretty high chance of stun too.
Leave it as it is!
QuoteAll other armor class modifiers, such as the size modifier, dexterity modifier, and deflection/dodge bonus (if any) apply normally
Fix your "maths" if you're going to randomly throw it out there. Deflection (shield pots, shield of faith, shield spell), dodge feat, tumble AC, and size all effect this roll, You're typical touch AC is in PvP will be anywhere from 14 on the low side to 22 on the higher end, and even more for small sizes. You might as well walk around with 40-50% spell failure with that type of success rate, especially when you compare it to things like Ice Storm, Missle Storm, and empowered level 2 spells that all do the same or more damage without a touch attack!
I've always found ranged touch attacks baffling considering one would expect a ranged spell to automatically home in on its target.
None of those spells can pierce spell mantles and spell resistance. Yes, there will be some PCs who can dodge touch attacks better than others. Tailor your spells to your opponent's strengths and weaknesses. For PCs with higher touch attack AC even, recall that you can get in a couple of True Strike spells while hasted. With the disabling effects, no save on damage and its piercing of resistance/immunity, it's an extremely nice spell. It's just not your bread-and-butter and is best reserved for certain situations (such as subraces, high-SR NPCs and spell mantle scroll hoarding).
Quote from: VanillaPudding;214844Fix your "maths" if you're going to randomly throw it out there. Deflection (shield pots, shield of faith, shield spell), dodge feat, tumble AC, and size all effect this roll, You're typical touch AC is in PvP will be anywhere from 14 on the low side to 22 on the higher end, and even more for small sizes. You might as well walk around with 40-50% spell failure with that type of success rate, especially when you compare it to things like Ice Storm, Missle Storm, and empowered level 2 spells that all do the same or more damage without a touch attack!
Wait what. I was talking of an unbuffed target, VP. Of course you crank it up higher.
Shit, if we're talking about buffed targets, then ZOMG, stoneskin + Prot from elements makes people immune to ice storm, too, and thats also a level 4 spell.
Hells, NEP makes you totally immune to Enervation too!
Missile storm? No problem, drink a shield potion!
Fear? OMG PfA.
PhK? No problem again, PfA fixes that! And a few other things!
Confusion? Again!
Evards? After the fix, freedom! Or blur for that matter!
Wait, did we just go over ..all the offensive l. 4 spells and how to counter them easily?
So, don't tell me to fix my maths, because they are proper. Of course a dex-based midget is going to have horrendous Touch AC.
24 Dex = 10 +7 +4 Shielding + 4 haste +1 Dodge +2 Tumble +1 size.
Ohh. And 50% concealment on top of that.
Omg, that IS A lot indeed. But hey.
A full-plated fighter with 10 Dex? Unprepared? Carnage. Absolute carnage.
There is no save, VP for the Orb. That is what makes it precious and ... situational. (I admit, I used the Orbs only in PnP, haven't had a chance to test them on EFU)
Quote from: JMuzz;214845I've always found ranged touch attacks baffling considering one would expect a ranged spell to automatically home in on its target.
if the spell would automatically home in on the target, then it would be affected by the spell resistance. Why it requires the ranged touch attack? because you are basically throwing a blob of exploding ice/acid/fire/whatever the caster has conjured and holds in his hands. It could be even an earth elemental if the caster had enough strength... throwing means a ranged attack and since it needs to only connect with the target and not pierce armor/shield, it's called ranged touch attack and not ranged attack.
If these were changed to an AOE spell, this would IMO be a nerf, not a buff. Their advantage is they are a precision sniping/self defence spell, especially as they mostly stun the target in some way. They aren't as straight up powerful as Ice Storm or Missile Storm, but they'll work in any given situation. I'd have these ready most of the time on a high-level wizard for PVP defence or getaway stopping. They are what Missile or Icestorm can't be in a crowded room or brawl; a way to hugely put the hurt on one enemy, especially one with SR or a savewhore. Situational but useful, especially to avoid the dilemma of doing no real damage or smashing up bystanders.
I'd recommend taking the touch attack away, as I saw these (as they read on paper) to be a mage's counter to a Monk or Rogue who can duck most of their damage spells. Remember they're elemental, so a caster can have a fairly good defence against them with PFElements. On the other hand, a spell with no save for damage and a Fort save for stun is one of the few spells you could reliably stop a Monk with as although they have good Fort saves, they have no specific boost to those. Keep the Touch Attack for Scorching Ray by all means, it's a fair tradeoff. Decent damage on a L2 spell and no save. But for these, at L4? Not that great.
Ive had the touch attack succeed with acid orb, and the spell not even work. Within the last 10 days.
Ranged touch is fine, I agree with Fishy's maths.
Question: Since all(afaik) touch attack spells can roll 20s, and receive critical hits, do these?
Yes.