I'd like to suggest that perhaps clerics be added to wizards and sorcerers in determining either alchemy and herbalism scores.
It would make perfect sense for priest of a patron of magic and spellcraft such as Mystra or Azuth to be an alchemist.
It also makes perfect sense for a priest of a healing god such as Ilmater to use herbs to craft various healing poltices or items.
Or.....perhaps a priest is supposed to be content with the holy magics provided by their deity and are not to trifle with such mundane activities?
I assume you mean class levels.
I understand and don't disagree with your argument, but feel there are generally too few clerics for which it would make sense to justify a 1:1 bonus.
I am going to move this to suggestions.
Yea, same thing regarding alchemy's role in necromancy/animation. Clerics of any magic/necromancy God can call up hordes of fun zombies at leve 5, but will forever be worse than their arcane counterparts who can only bring up one or two by regular spells.
Most clerics won't spend time or EfUSS points on these things, but for those that do being so much weaker (8-9 points from levels is a massive boost!) is agitating.
1. I'd much prefer to see a consecration system that is more on par with alchemy/herbalism in terms of accessability and content. This gives clerics their own field to play in.
2. Alternatively, maybe the boost from skill should be *1.5 and class levels should be *0.5?
3. Having certain domains, feats or efuss skills could let characters use their overall character levels for purposes of the bonus:
Domains granting Alchemy bonus: Knowledge, Spells
Feats granting Alchemy bonus: Brew Potion
EFUSS skills granting Herbalism bonus: Wilderness Survival
Domains granting Herbalism bonus: Fungus, Plant
Or something like that... >_>
I came in here to basically say what MrGrendel said.
Also, when you're in there retooling rogues, a very simple and easy way to give them a significant boost is to give them greater access to alchemy / herbalism through UMD.
I disagree with the idea of giving Clerics more power, they can do enough already. It's right that arcane classes and nature classes respectively should have an ability tied to that that they can do better than anyone else. Arcane classes because it gives them a chance to show off their magical abilities and study, as well produce devices of an offensive nature that don't cost thousands. Wilds classes as it gives them a good reason to protect and plant the wilderness.
Clerics can do a hell of a lot if they tool up for it, especially with the new domains. You can certainly be average at alchemy or herbalism with a low investment, if not brilliant, especially if you build for it with self-cast attribute buffs, feats, and gear. Grendel, of the domains you suggested, three of them (Spells, Plant, Fungus) are some of the most powerful ones by dint of the spells you get. They don't need a boost.
If everyone gets herbalism, it takes away from the classes that are supposed to have an advantage there. If everyone and their dog can be a good alchemist, then there's less room to stand out by pursuing research. I would agree though that it would help rogues out, especially engineer type ones, if they had access to crafting. However, since they don't get Spellcraft, it'd be of limited use anyway.
Egon, reading over your post, I think I should suggest the idea, and let me go out on a limb here... alchemy was not scripted and "exclusively given to mages" because they (of all people) "needed power to compete with clerics."
I figured that alchemy and herbalism were created to help the player to breathe even more life into their character.
It makes just as much or more sense to me to ask an Ilmateri healer cleric build to research a cure for a virulent disease plaguing a population rather than a ranger of Mielikki. How about a cleric of Mystra crafting a wondrous magical item if a traveling minstrel bard can already do it?
Of course, if the Ilmateri is just supposed to walk around and say, "you must have faith" and "to suffer is divine" - while the hermit ranger has the ability to save the day - then I think the potential for a neat story is lessened.
With all the changes that have been enacted to enhance druids including special gear, various wildshapes, and bountiful protection potions on the server - I'm not sure that clerics are more powerful than druids anyway.
Saying that having access to alchemy or herbalism unbalances the scales perilously in favor of clerics seems a bit silly to me, when it seems to be more of a RP implementation than one of PVP and mechanics.
Beautifully wrote, Gwydion.
It is as much an RP thing as a way to gain neat devices yes, but if every class can be a master at it, it takes away that RP from the classes that are supposed to have the edge at it. Bear in mind that really, not getting your class level isn't totally crippling. A good number of alchemy mages I've seen have also done Herbalism, for example.
Quote from: HowlandAlchemy skill = 1/2 Lore + 1/2 Spellcraft + Wizard levels + Sorcerer levels + EFUSS Alchemy
Herbalism skill = 1/2 Lore + 1/2 Heal + Druid levels + Ranger levels + EFUSS Herbalism
EFUSS skills are class independent and everyone can get 10 in them. Clerics get Lore, Spellcraft and Heal as class skills. They can have Wisdom and Intelligence buffs up for a couple more points every time they craft, which Druids and Rangers can't, nor can most Sorcs. If you really want to focus on research, you can Empower said buffs. They have higher HP, AC and/or saves than Rangers or mages, which is important for being able to survive a crafting failure. A Cleric specialised in Herbalism can easily outperform Joe Ranger who isn't, and be able to make some cool stuff. The DCs for useful items aren't as high as you might think, and they're certainly reachable with investment in skills and +heal/lore/spellcraft gear.
If there were bonuses added, I'd suggest adding them to some of the more limited or unpopular domains, rather than say Magic or Spells. Knowledge, for example, and Healing. Or to add them by way of a Perk for any research-focused PCs, that gives them 3 points or so in EFUSS Alch or Herbal.
I'll point out that it was never personally my impression that mages were meant to have much of an edge when it comes to Herbalism and/or Alchemy.
We are not about to include Clerics in the list of classes which are "good" at alchemy. This is more for technical reasons than practical ones. On the other hand, we /may/ be willing to discuss removing wizard/sorcerer/druid/ranger levels from Alchemy and Herbalism ranks if you are interested in leveling the playing field for other classes.
It would be cool to see scholarly rogues mastering alchemy, wilds barbarians specialising in herbalism, etc, rather than shoehorning players into a particular class if they want to excel.
I think it should be left as it is. Also, clerics are one of the strongest classes and are no way inferior to druids.
I'd like to point out, that if you are really avid about alchemy/herbalism as a cleric. I understand that the DM team can grant you bonuses to your efuss score.
earn it in game.
It is also interesting to note that EFUSS scores are not a locked value at 10. It can be raised for those we feel deserve it, regardless of class. So if your concept is all about alchemy/herbalism, be ambitious and proactive.
Clerics are supposed to get consecration later anyway.
Here's an idea. Rather than open it up more, how about simply lowering the DCs a little or adding a bonus based on a fraction of character level or another skill for all PCs? This way it's possible for any PC to reasonably reach the DCs of decent items without a shedload of gear and feats, but the requisite classes get to excel because of their particular training.
Oh, and another class advantage of Clerics over Rangers/druids/sorcs and often Wizards too is they have a larger selection of spells to experiment with using in the systems.
Just to note, even without level bonuses, wizards would be the best at alchemy anyway: both skills are class skills for them, and they are the only class whose primary stat also boosts both these skills.
And I think lowering DCs would just have the primary effect of making alchemy and alchemists more powerful.
Alternative ways of "making up" for the class bonuses would be good, though.
Great points made by players and DMs alike.
Egon, your points that lore and spellcraft are class skills for clerics, along with the ability to self-buff makes clerics a viable option to have a high alchemy/herbalism skill are outstanding.
That alone convinces me to leave it as is.
I really don't want to see the class levels removed.
And for the record, I clearly did not say that clerics are inferior to druids. I merely suggested that in my opinion, they might be roughly equivalent.
Thanks for the feedback all!