I would suggest the scaling of the crystal mine quest be reviewed. The number of crossbowmen that spawn at the end with a large party is a little extreme. Especially with the barrier in the way. I was recently with a larger party (not full of high levels), had 29 AC, Displacement, and good HP and was still cut down before I could even drink an invisibility potion at the end. Just a thought.
I would second that. Though I have been in the same group and my oppinion might be biased.
I got shot dead within a single round, with a bit less AC than Never-Again, but still 25 and 10% concealment. No chance to invis at all in that time. I guess it went equally fast for Never-Again.
In this fashion the quest is not really made to resupply people (what I always thought it would be intended for). All that is caused by that is that people will only do it in small groups, because they oocly know what happens when they don't. And when done in small groups it seems to be a cake walk, where you are actually using next to no supplies.
That was the point I didnt want to raise. I dont like turning people away OOCly because I know the spawns will be insane. Especially on a quest like that where it has things that are useful to a wide range of players. I dont mind having a harder quest if you bring more people, that is part of the game. But I think this one scales up to much at the end with -that- many crossbowmen. Just my two cents.
Disagree completely. Even the spawns I saw you guys left with were difficult, but hardly out of proportion to the extremely large and well equipped nature of your group.
I understand your point NC, but I think the lay out of the end causes the issue. You have a chasm with a narrow bridge spanning it. At the end of the bridge is a barricade that you have to break (not a huge issue, but it does take a bit of time). On the "safe" side of the chasm you have a stun trap you cant get around that goes off multiple times with a will save vs stun. On the "enemy side" you have somewhere around 10 to 15 crossbowmen with an attack of 11 or so doing around 10 - 12 points of damage a hit. People get stunned when they set off the trap and that breaks up any charge. The barricade slows you down and all those crossbowmen tend to target the same person. They can all attack because they have ranged weapons. With that many simultaneous attacks, the stun trap, and the barricade it can turn into a slaughter very quickly. Perhaps mix up some more battleragers with the crossbowmen? That way the numbers stay the same, but you dont have quite so many bolts all hitting the same person. Just a thought.
More spawns on that quest (especially near the barricade) means AoE mages shine. Recall many times obliterating about 90% of that last push by myself as an evoker.
I would agree with the AoE mage part, but that means not taking the quest unless you have one. There is not always one around, part of the fun is trying things with less than ideal parties. I understand that some times leads to a slaughter. However in this case I thought we had a pretty good party and a pretty good plan.
I hope I'm not alone here in my thoughts that thinking of quests in terms of "a resupply" is not something we want to encourage on EFU!
Without spoiling anything, I can safely say that in addition to the use of AoE spells to clear out large groups, the engine provides wizards and clerics plenty of spells to strengthen players against the particular part you're referring to. And the existence of large groups can be verified safely and ICly by the use of well trained rogues, rangers and invisible people traveling ahead of the party!
If your group didn't have the means to defeat the challenge, the best solution is to turn back and admit defeat, or rush blindly into the problem for a heroic last stand! (And maybe there's a few options in the middle there somewhere...)
Are we talking about the purple crystal mines or those -other- crystal mines?
Never had a problem with this quest, in fact i find it too easy for the reward it gives.
Learn to Work well as a team and use potions instead of hoarding them would be my advice.
I think my point was missed, it was more of a mechanical nature than anything. NwN is round based, so if you have say three PCs being targeted by multiple NPCs at the same time the engine works something like this.
- PC: Action
- NPC: Action
- NPC: Action
- NPC: Action
- ect..
Thats what makes large numbers of crossbowmen or archers so deadly. They can all attack at the same time. In other words the combat log can look something like this.
PC: Attack, damage whatever.
NPC: Attack, damage whatever
NPC: Attack, damage whatever
... and so on.
So if the PC gets hit and tries to react (drink potion, ect), he might be dead by the time his next action round comes again. All those archer NPC attacks happen between the PC clicking the potion / movement / whatever and the PC's next round coming up.
In any case. This might be turning into a bit of a debate. If the quest isnt going to be changed, then fair enough. I just thought I would put in my two cents. :)
Just do the quest never again. (Bad pun).
Anyway, I've done this quest dozens of times, in groups large and small. There's certain difficulties but there's ways around them. The key is making it so that all those crossbowmen can't fire at the same place at once. The solutions to that (which I won't detail) should be somewhat obvious. With the right items, spells, etc. it's certainly doable.
I know spells to bring that would make this very easy indeed, and so does Never-Again, but I think there are two seperate issues:
1. Ranged or mage attackers are not slowed down by space constraints/bottlenecks, so upping their numbers makes difficulty increase much faster than if you are increasing melee attackers. In fact, quite likely by multiples. Ideally, scripted scaling should take this into account, at least to some degree.
2. How to handle the situation. That is, through typical means without metagaming or without having to trek back to a resting spot to re-prepare each time you do that quest. I'm not saying the latter would be wrong, but it's not so much fun to be ready to dooo eeet and have a scout come back and the verdict is "let's go back out and wait the rest of the 30 minutes to rest again so we can do this properly."
Might as well also bring up "how much can my character learn from this and assume he knows, in general terms, the next time someone says 'let's go plunder X or rape Y type of (scripted quest) area.'"
Ha ... MrGrendel just put what I was trying to bring out much better than I was able to. 10 melee NPCs are much less deadly than 10 ranged NPCs assuming it is a bit difficult to chase down the ranged NPCs. In regards of how to handle it, you are quite right Ghost. There are things that would make it much easier, in this case my character doesnt have them or wouldnt know about them. I guess my real frustration was based on my character being unable to change the situation without going OOC (once the battle had started, could have allways left beforehand). That particular set up with that number of spawns creates a situation where certain spells / items are needed badly and we didnt have them. As I said before, if the quest isnt going to be changed then fair enough. Its just a game after all! :)
Quote from: Never-Again;216254I think my point was missed, it was more of a mechanical nature than anything. NwN is round based, so if you have say three PCs being targeted by multiple NPCs at the same time the engine works something like this.
- PC: Action
- NPC: Action
- NPC: Action
- NPC: Action
- ect..
Thats what makes large numbers of crossbowmen or archers so deadly. They can all attack at the same time. In other words the combat log can look something like this.
PC: Attack, damage whatever.
NPC: Attack, damage whatever
NPC: Attack, damage whatever
... and so on.
So if the PC gets hit and tries to react (drink potion, ect), he might be dead by the time his next action round comes again. All those archer NPC attacks happen between the PC clicking the potion / movement / whatever and the PC's next round coming up.
In any case. This might be turning into a bit of a debate. If the quest isnt going to be changed, then fair enough. I just thought I would put in my two cents. :)
This is kind of the idea, though. In PnP, for example, you'd have to wait the entire round before you'd get that chance.
Personaly I would like to see a total change of the Crystal mine map.
Quote from: Disco;216266Personaly I would like to play a different quest.
Fixed.
If there's a point that someone who's buffed to the gills and generally prepared runs into an encounter, and gets cut down before they can even have a shot to scramble back out of it, I think it's a good sign to tweak things. I don't think it's unreasonable for someone with 29 AC and Displacement to consider themselves at least somewhat prepared, and I'm not sure if metagaming the placement of enemies before you have any reasonable way to tell they're even there can be justified.
Come to think, that quest spot seems to cause a lot of metagaming, even in smaller groups. I see a lot of runs that have people going through most of the mine at a run, then suddenly stop behind cover until someone can manage to spot the trap, just because a trigger and a few unlucky rolls can mean anything from a few deaths to a wipe in a bigger group, even if you did decide that this was suddenly the best time to chug a half dozen potions.
I imagine it can lead to a lot of frustration, as once you get locked into a hail of arrows, there's not a lot more you can do but stare at the screen and wait to die. It's a gamble that can easily become a no-win situation and cost you a third of your EXP, plus the consumables you'd used. I think it might be better to ensure this spot gives players the chance to run away if things go too south, too fast, rather than leaving it as-is. In exchange, the melee capabilities of the encounter could do to be beefed up, as I've noticed that when the trap is passed over, and the archer spawns aren't too bad, the fight quickly becomes a cakewalk.
You can see all the crossbowmen from quite a distance, stopping and planning is a very reasonable thing to do. >.>
Odd... I can only see them once I'm in front of the trap, and that's about the same point that they start plugging people full of arrows, in my experience... Of course, by 'people' it's usually just me. Everyone else stays in cover.
Quote from: IdealCome to think, that quest spot seems to cause a lot of metagaming, even in smaller groups.
That's exactly the point and it is what I see in 99% of the runs I have been part of. And it is exactly what people suggested to do!
Bring an evoker! -> metagaming
Bring a wizard or sorc able to cast spell X -> metagaming
Stand behind corner, wait for wizard or sorc to cast spell X -> metagaming
You can't always have those around. And of course I do know how to do that quest easily (read my initial post!), though does my character know? Likely not, atleast not before heading in. Of course I could have told all the people: No, you stay here! But my character had no reason to, even when I already had a bad feeling oocly when we left the gates.
Its not like I or Never-Again would have done our first quest in that lvl range. And it clearly wasn't the case that we didn't use supplies, just read the initial posts before giving advice that only backfires... oh, maybe we should have used more in that one round that killed both of us... And later several others who tried to safe us.
Well, anyway, when the general oppinion is that quests are better metagamed instead of putting useful suggestions out how to solve the problem, then I guess I shall take that advice! Not going to comment any further on this.
You don't have to metagame the quest to be successful. Near all of our characters are adventurers. People who are competent and used to frequently walking into kill or be killed situations should and would have a bit of an arsenal to use to cover certain contingencies. This particular quest doesn't have dangers that your average adventurer wouldn't anticipate.
Attacking a fortified position where the only entry is covered by crossbowmen is sort of an obvious defense, having the means to counter that should be essentially standard kit. If it's not then, well, maybe those particular adventurers aren't the most competent sorts.
First off, the whole claim to 'Well, if you were an experienced adventurer, you'd know you needed the means to counter that and shove it in your pack before going on random trips' confuses me. I mean, everyone comes to the Ziggurat at level two. Sometimes they're random farmers, sometimes they're 400 year old elf paladins. None of them are likely to stand up to your average NPC 'veteran'. I usually just assumed everyone had been thrust into the adventurer's life recently due to that. That, and I've had way too many 'oh, well, my veteran guy totally saw that coming' moments in tabletop to say it without wincing.
Second, and I suppose more relevantly, let's say you and your level 5 adventure buddies decided to test out your preparedness by having your group archer start lobbing arrows at you. If you're packing 29 AC, 50% concealment, and your friend is a 20 DEX Elf Fighter, the very top of the arrow-shooting game, he's going to have to roll about a 17 to hit you, and even then he'd miss half those shots with the concealment, giving him a one in ten shot at actually making contact, let alone doing enough damage to seriously hurt you, or keep up with your constant stream of healing. I would say, from an IC, 'seasoned adventurer' standpoint, that this is pretty well prepared, or at least enough that you aren't going to get killed in the time it takes your hand to reach that handy Invisibility potion on your belt.
Come talk to me on IRC if you've got a real problem with this, and I'll discuss it with you.
There's more to questing than buffing and charging. Being able to separate and disperse mobs is a big key. I always carry these kinds of items with me, they're very easy to find.
I also have done that particular quest dozens of times and haven't died on it since my very first PC on EfUA, well over a year ago. The gist of this thread is that this quest is so difficult as to be near-certain death, and needs to be adjusted, yet that hasn't been my experience at all. Sure it's dangerous, and sometimes people do die, but I really don't see where it needs changing, and as a matter of fact I think it would then become a ridiculous cakewalk.
Maybe people disagree with me and that's fine, but there's a certain amount of uncertainty when you walk into this QA about exactly how bad it might be. I rather enjoy that and think it would be a shame to turn the quest into a bland run for healing supplies. It's dangerous, yes, it can be very dangerous indeed, but it's more than doable with gear that's very easy to find all over the place.
Ghost, maybe there is some portion of the game that I am missing. But for the life of me I cant think of a single thing that would be part of the standard kit to deal with 10+ crossbowmen with an AB of 11 focused on one or two characters at once. The only thing could come close would be a Displcament potion (which my character used, sadly to little effect :cool:). I agree there are spells that would have helped and items. None of those though would be part of the standard kit for any adventurer. As I said, maybe there is something I am missing though. I sort of look at it like this. It comes down to math, when you have large number of ranged attacks the likely hood of them of any one of them rolling a critical is greatly increased, which will always hit. Displacement becomes less useful because if your facing ten attacks, 5 of then statistically will cut through the Displacement on any given attack. Given the critical nature of ranged weapons, when they score crits it really hurts. If you have large number of crossbowmen attacking one target, the likelyhood one of them scores a crit goes way. It only takes a couple of unlucky roles for the adventurer in one round to die regardless of precautions. Anyway, it is what it is. If the DMs want that quest that to work like that with a large party then fair enough. However, I dont think we can claim its something you can use with standard gear any adventurer would have. A well prepared mage or cleric, sure! Unless of course I am missing something. :cool:
Darkness. That's only one, there's others but I won't list everything I can think of down here for spoiler-ish reasons.
I thought quests were supposed to have death traps like that; they're often easy to avoid with precation or meta-gaming, but low rolls can still kill you quickly in certain parts.
At least after the level four and lower quests, any how.
Don't worry too much, though, dying in game isn't so bad - you just get to level up again. =]
I'm not really sure how separation and dispersal are supposed to assist against ranged combatants, except possibly dispersing their attention among multiple people, which takes a good bit of time and/or luck in NWN's system where archers are concerned. The items to do it with do exist, though I'm not sure of their range, as I have yet to procure any myself. But for the topic of this post, their effectiveness is moot. The issue that started this thread was that people were getting killed in the first round of engagement, which usually means the PC is busy moving and the arrows are en route by the time they stop to act. Whatever item or spell you'd want to use would be interrupted by pointy death that, in two case studies, was not averted by defensive buffing. It was no longer a question of reasonable tactics, preparation, or experience. It was a question of 'Can I manage a single action that will save me from dying on contact with the enemy?', and the answer turned out to be 'No'.
Neither is it a question of uniformly 'making the quest easier'. It's been repeatedly noted that once the initial salvos are over, it's fairly easy to mop up a mob of archers, between AoOs and target fragmenting. Changing some of the archers to hardened melee combatants able to hold the narrow pass PCs need to come down would seem to me a balancing factor, reducing the chance of instant death by ranged weapon, and making the later rounds a bit more than just running down defenseless, low-hp archers. There is free healing in the mine, after all, and it doesn't seem too much to ask that people have to use it, so long as they are allowed the chance.
I think we are getting a bit off topic. The original point was to bring something up and see if anyone else agreed. It is quite apparent that while some people do, some people dont. Easiest way to fix it, is to just accept that quest scaling is difficult and if you take a big party on something you are taking a risk (on anything pretty much).
I think that the number of archers can sometimes be far too much. In fact I'd much prefer more melee were added. This is because often times AI's think a like and will all target a single individual at once. I've had high ac/concealed stoneskinned characters knocking back potions like theres no tommorow doing this quest.
Certainly there are spells that can counter this, but a bit of bad luck, or if the archers are spread in a certain manner they will simply kill any caster or casters that make an appearance before they can be fully disabled.
I think the quest would benifit from less archers and more clerics/battlerager/warriors.
Just wanted to say that I agree with Never and Ideal about the archer/melee ratio.
Consider also that the loot scaling on this is pretty terrible too, as the Crystals are all in boxes not as drops. That means that with a large group you fight more enemies, using more supplies and taking a greater risk, for a smaller reward. Generally the trade off is that a small group takes on a higher risk and supply cost per person in exchange for a bigger share of the loot, and a large, well managed group is safer due to more support, but the loot has to go around more PCs. That holds true for most quests.
On the other hand, Purple Mines is worse in every regard when done with >3 people, and I've always found it a supply and money drain as opposed to a chance to gain some resources. I'd suggest increasing the drops from the Crossbowmen in addition to balancing the mobs. With better drops from the mobs themselves rather than the chests, there's an reward to fighting more enemies that balances out the risk. I agree that the level of firepower that can be flung at you on a large party is excessive. The odds are good on lots of them hitting you, and the Duergar are armed with the sort of Mighty crossbows no PC could ever get his hands on.
Porkolt there is a reason I have not done this quest in several monthes. ;)
Also I have seen some insane spawns on this quest, and I support changing the wide open space with the trap, that area is too inviting to "Lure" The crossbows to you. (Wich is bad) But often you have no other choise, you charge forward, Get taken to near death and have to pull back.
Why not change the layout of the quest to a more "Mine" Feel, more tunnels and such, and ofcourse more melee foes.
Just have a caster who's going to make them all explode with 3 Fireballs/Scinti spheres and disappear into invis right after.
Just taking the time to say that we wtfpwned this quest today with two frontliners and tactical spell usage.
Yep. That's how everyone does it, every reset. It's a walk in the park with 2-3 people, and a firing squad that saps your supplies when you bring more. This is a real shame, as you end up turning people down for the OOC reason of "not wanting to burn up supplies and risk death for next to nothing". I would suggest that the number of shooters be reduced and a new enemy called "Duergar Miner" be added to replace them. These carry a hammer, and spawn for higher CR parties as effectively moving loot chests. They would always drop a Crystal or two, and their presence would mean that loot would scale easily to party size.
Actually, the total amount of PCs was 7.
Granted. The frontliners were buffed to shit.
Supply drain was minimal.
"Supply drain was minimal". So, you did walk out with less or little more than you came in with, which makes the whole idea of a mine raid for resources rather counter-productive?
Just taking the time to say I solo'd this quest once while 8 other people picked thier nose in the back. Still was quite draining on supplies!
Quote from: SlimeTime;217725"Supply drain was minimal". So, you did walk out with less or little more than you came in with, which makes the whole idea of a mine raid for resources rather counter-productive?
We ran a profit, if that's what you're asking. I was pleased.
Quote from: SlimeTime;217725"Supply drain was minimal". So, you did walk out with less or little more than you came in with, which makes the whole idea of a mine raid for resources rather counter-productive?
A group of about five of us rocked it with tactics and spells. Again, right buffed up, though. Two front liners, and three mages.
I don't think we lost any supplies really, just used the crystals and strategy, so it's not impossible to get a net gain.