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I have noticed that, while it is easily possible to enchant a melee weapon such as a longsword or greataxe, once cannot enchant quivers of arrows. This does not seem realistic to me, as a mage could, with very little extra effort, cast the same spell on a cluster of projectile or the orifice on his crossbow where they are fired from.

Is this possible to implement, script-wise?

Do you think that it would be something we ought to see?

Am I right in my realism basis?

Orifice.

No, I agree entirely. Enchanting a bow should be fine. Except...well, I dunno if it can be done with scripting.

This was discussed a number of times in the UD, and was deemed undesirable; ranged weapons are already powerful enough.

I doubt this will change now.

I don't agree with the "ranged weapons are already powerful enough".  At least, not at lower levels.  I frequently play archers, and the most frustrating part of playing them is they're near useless against DR foes, and as such they're often turned away when groups form for quests.  While all the melee folk get magicked up with a 1st-level Magic Weapon spell and get to pound on the enemy, the archer can only shoot at the enemy with futility as the arrows bounce harmlessly off.  Not that I expect this will change, and I already adjust my game to try to be useful in other ways (my archers always have good healing skill and a way to use magic healing devices) but it really bothers me whenever I see someone say that ranged weapons are powerful enough when you can't even damage 1/3 of the encounters that everyone else can.

The counterpoint is that the melee character gets to be pelted by 21312841 goblins while he races through them to kill each and every one, while the archer can easily pick them off with Rapid Shot, from a distance that makes it impossible for most of the goblins to spot him, and move ahead as he desires.

The power of ranged weapons does not come from their damage potential. It comes from their range.

I'd rather not see this changed.  Ranged weapons are strong enough, imo.  And there's nothing restricting you from pulling out a club or sword and melee'ing the undead.

Quote from: Kiaring;95303The power of ranged weapons does not come from their damage potential. It comes from their range.

Quotewhile the archer can easily pick them off with Rapid Shot, from a distance that makes it impossible for most of the goblins to spot him, and move ahead as he desires.

This is not really correct! Unless you set the perception range to small (Where the PC has to get pretty close to be seen) NPCS can actually notice and shoot you before you can shoot them!

As for script wise, it is entirely possible to  script  them.

I would be in favor for this.

Seems silly to me.

My only response is ;

They buffed up monk gloves which when buffed monks are total machines. They get more attacks and can do more damage than bows, yet they still added this.

It is not unbalanced to add bows to be affected by this, and would be more of a balancing factor, tbh.

Go for it.

I think this would be nice for one reason- damage resistance makes archery totally useless in PvP. It's there that the biggest difference will be made.

Remember, enchanting arrows means they do +1 damage, but the AB is still the same! They're already half as effective than if it was for a melee weapon.

As Erglion mentioned, this has been brought up before and shot down, no pun intended.

Keep in mind there are always loose arrows about with minor enchantments. Use them wisely.

Even so, those drops are rare as hen's teeth. If bows or arrows cannot be enchanted in some way (which I would personally like to see but won't be holding my breath), could we perhaps see more drops of arrows that make archers more useful?

Edit - The range thing isn't that great a bonus either.. how often do you ping a creature with an arrow  and it turns and charges you? More times than I can count, anyway.  ;)

The current factor, is that it just makes those + 1 AB bows and crossbows all the more to strive for!

Does that - +1 AB bows - or mighty bows can breach the DR of undead?  Or is it just to get you a higher attack score?
konfyuzd

If you've ever face 2 Elite Skeleton Marksmen at once, you know bows aren't underpowered <_< And I'm not sure +1 bows which can -decimate- people should be available so easily.

Also, note that even while your character might have a speciality, always using a bow to fight will hopefully never be viable in every situation or it would become extremely silly.

I prefer as is, that you do not need to switch behind weapons, hit and run, etc. And I think improvement to that may ... change the viability of things too much.

Monks were improved because... well... monks! *runs away*

There is one popular quest that regularly drops +1 arrows, bolts and thrown weapons, but even that's not that good, when you'll get 99 rarely. Also, there is a crossbow with +1 vs undead, but for whatever reason it doesn't seem to beat DR.

More +

Some DR... is.. special one might say. There is Damage Resistance, and there is Damage Reduction. I'm not sure if they are the same, or one just blocks all sorts of damage. >_>

Who here remembers the old EfU Staircase quest out in the ruins?  You had to basically stand there and hold off the undead horde.  I remember one time doing the quest we realized that -everyone- in the group were ranged fighters with bows.  We thought we were doomed with no front liners, but decided to give it a go anyway.

We stood back near the stairs and coordinated our shots so that we all assaulted the same one or two undead.  We defeated that quest without a single one of us taking a single point of damage.  We had a blast, everyone was shocked, and we all loved it.

I just thought I'd share that experience, because it was so awesome.  

I'm not sure where I stand on this issue.  I would like to see more +1 arrows drop or they should be sold for something like 150gp - 250gp per stack.  If you build a character around the bow how is it any different than a character built around a bastard sword / large shield, greataxe or greatsword?  It's not often that you see them changing weapons, why should a character designed to be an archer toss aside his bow because his attacks are useless because he can't get a magic weapon enchantment?

There is one popular quest that regularly drops +1 arrows, bolts and thrown weapons, but even that's not that good, when you'll get 99 rarely. Also, there is a crossbow with +1 vs undead, but for whatever reason it doesn't seem to beat DR.
Maybe do the following:
Make Purple Crystal and Bludgeoning Arrows drop in stacks of 99, not 1 or 2, and make them drop more, or even SELL bludgeoning arrows/bolts at merchants?
Make more Mighty +1 or 2 bows available? It's in no way overpowering, there are a lot of melee weapons with +1 damage, from daggers to spears to axes.
Oh. One range weapon I do love. Ink Bombs. Darts with an onhit Grease? Brilliant for keeping foes from reaching you. Not so good for PVP though since a Blur just ignores it.

Quote from: Gullible Righteousness;95380Some DR... is.. special one might say. There is Damage Resistance, and there is Damage Reduction. I'm not sure if they are the same, or one just blocks all sorts of damage. >_>

Damage REDUCTION is effective against physical damage and can be overcome with a certain level of item attack bonus.  This is the kind bestowed by blur/stoneskin/etc., and the kind that magic weapon lets you overcome (if the reduction is X/+1; if it's x/+2 or higher you'll need greater magic weapon)

Damage RESISTANCE is effective against a specific kind of energy or attack type (e.g. fire, negative, slashing).  Damage resistance to a physical damage type (slashing, piercing, bludgeoning) can't be overcome regardless of your weapon's attack bonus.  You'll need to switch weapons, or if the resistance is rather low (5/-), do more damage than the creature can resist.  This is the kind bestowed by the endure/resist/protection/energy buffer spells, but only against energy attacks.

Finally, damage IMMUNITY means a creature is immune to some percentage (including 100%) of damage dealt by a specific kind of energy or attack.  A creature with 50% immunity to piercing damage will always take half damage regardless of your weapon's attack bonus.

I won't go into possible spoilers about specific creatures, but weapons with attack bonuses will only overcome the first kind (reduction).  If the target has resistance or immunity to the damage type (piercing, in the case of the crossbow), the attack bonus vs. undead won't overcome the ability.  The three types are often confused because it's not always immediately obvious why your attacks aren't very effective.  Experiment!

+AB on bows goes through DR.   +damage on arrows and mighty doesn't.

I saw the +1 AB vs undead crossbow... very nice. I'd really like to see something similar in bow form. Mmmm.....

+AB on bows goes through DR?  Hmm... I'll have to try out my crossbow... thought I did, and that it didn't, but will try it again and pay closer attention.

Ahh, then my previous comments were mistaken.

I know range can be devastating when you have an archer line (if you want to have some LOLfun, try a line of 8 people casting cantrips at a target). Even Kazan Rhodes was pretty good when he hit level 6 and got 3 attacks per round. The problem is about damage reduction, which is extremely prevelant. Archers are utterly crippled by a simple blur potion or another form of damage reduction.

Is there some crazy side-effect of allowing archers to enchant their bows (thus, getting +1 AB but not +1 damage) that I simply don't see?

"Blur cripples archers"
Hmm. Dispelling Arrows as well as the Dispelling darts? Usable only by Ranger I suggest, as rogues get sneaks which can overpower DR and letting fighters use it would result in more "swap to bow, strip buffs, swap to melee" abuse?

Or, more arrows with onhit effects that stop a meleer reaching in the first place? Yes, I know, tanglebags, but I'm trying to think of archer only kit, that's also less expensive than spamming devices that have maybe a 50% chance to work and cost an attack.
Not grease, blur overcomes it. But, Slow, Tanglebag effect, etc.

Or bows with bonus feat: Called shot? You need damage usually on a bowman, and having Weapon focus, point blank shot and rapid shot is 3 feats already, so you need Human race or FTR levels to consider Called. Yet, as you know if Kobolds hit you with it, -20% movement is a bitch.

Also, Garem's "let's all spam Acid Splash devices" plan was amusing :D.

Is it possible to make bows that are only usable by those with specific feats?  A bow usable only by those with "Rapid Shot" and "Weapon Focus: xxxx-bow" would make it unlikely to be abused by other classes, as that requires a 3-feat commitment to being an archer.

it is possible to script it so the bow will unequip itself if the person does not have a certain feat, yes.


this seems kind of pointless to me, tbh.

Just change the spell to add +1AB to bows.

Quote from: Cruzel;95558it is possible to script it so the bow will unequip itself if the person does not have a certain feat, yes.


this seems kind of pointless to me, tbh.

Just change the spell to add +1AB to bows.

I would be more than happy with this.  :mrgreen:

Not pointless if the fear is that non-archer builds would abuse the availability of ranged weapons that can defeat DR.  I think it keying such a weapon to feats would help keep things balanced.  My main complaint is that if you optimize an archery build, you end up being -too- specialized and unable to effectively assist in a number of quests.  However, flooding the server with ranged weapons that can defeat DR might make things unbalanced if just any rogue/wizard/whatever can use them.

In theory, yes. In practice, no. It's too easy to interrupt that script.

I skimmed through the thread, and it seems like people think bows should be balanced around 1v1 situations, when most things just aren't. In my opinion, I think that bows already have sufficient potential. With special arrows, useful bow feats, and the obvious range advantage, you can easily be a useful individual just using a bow alone and one gold bundles of arrows, as opposed to a melee character's higher healing and consumable bill.

Playing an archer for a significant period of time in EFU, I believe that they are fine without magical enchantments, considering the versatility that pretty much every archer will possess in some fashion.

I definitely support the Magic Weapon spell being able to be cast on bows, and really don't understand the arguments against it bar the technical one that Snoteye mentioned.

Outside of "balance concerns" what IC rational is there for Magic Weapon to work on gloves, and many different types of weapons, but not on bows?  Where is the logic?

While NwN uses mostly 3.0 rules, in DnD 3.5 (DM's Guide), if you look in the magic items section, you'll see that most types of magic properties can be applied to projectile weapons and their ammunition. I see no reason why casting magic weapon on someone with a bow/crossbow/sling out could not give their bow a +1 AB and any arrows/bolts/bullets they have equipped a +1 damage bonus. This would not be unbalancing, it would make it possible for archer builds to do something other than sit there and look pretty on the quests that have nothing but DR monsters, gaining free xp while doing nothing.

I think having it castable on bows/crossbows would be sensible and balanced.

Yeah I'm not really sure about the balance issue, as I agree there are many advantages to quality ranged attackers... but I also kinda think it just makes IC sense to be able to cast magic weapon on a ranged weapon.

So I'm going for the latter.

QuoteI definitely support the Magic Weapon spell being able to be cast on bows, and really don't understand the arguments against it bar the technical one that Snoteye mentioned.

QuoteIn theory, yes. In practice, no. It's too easy to interrupt that script.

I'm pretty sure snoteye was responding to me responding to someone else about making some bows only equippable if hte PC has certain feats, if not it just unequipped them. (which can be interupted, as snoteye said)

There is really no issues from the technical side to allowing magic weapon to grant +1 AB to bows, that I can see.  

Scriptwise, it should be easy to add.
ICly, it makes sense.

I dont see any reason to NOT do this, tbh.

Cruzel's right. I have no comments on balance, it's not my area of expertise -- all I can say is that this has been brought up multiple times in the past and has yet to happen.

Okay.. but is there any DM opposition now to allowing bows and crossbows to be enchanted with MW?  If this is only a small change and is not imbalancing, why can't it be implemented?

Quote from: Meldread;95383If you build a character around the bow how is it any different than a character built around a bastard sword / large shield, greataxe or greatsword?  It's not often that you see them changing weapons, why should a character designed to be an archer toss aside his bow because his attacks are useless because he can't get a magic weapon enchantment?

This isn't happening until a DM who does understand the balance says it's fine. My opinion is that it isn't needed, but on the other hand I can barely find my way around the Ziggurat.

Make an awesome app for AA, imo. Problem solved.

Quote from: iBard;95744Make an awesome app for AA, imo. Problem solved.

Except that you can't begin AA levels until at least lvl 8, and it's really levels 3-7 that it's a problem.  You can have the 3 feats we've proposed as necessary to use a special bow by 3rd level, either by being human or by taking at least 1 fighter level.  However, if you were to take those 3 feats, it shows a very strong commitment to archery, and should resolve the balance issue as you'll pretty much only be effective as an archer.

Regarding the logic of it all, just about anything can be justified with 'magic'.

I'd prefer to see +1 ammunition become more prevalent.  A fletching merchant could fix this, with ammunition costs at a reasonable rate.  It'd create a fair money sink for archers (considering the amount frontliners have to spend on potions), without disrupting the balance issues with MW.

+1 ammo doesn't break damage resistance in NWN.  Only a +1 enchantment or attack bonus on the actual weapon manages that, but the enchanted ammo does carry a damage bonus.

I brought this up on the old forum a long time ago.  The main argument against it, from what I recall, was that bows can be used to easily disrupt spellcasters, giving them an advantage over melee weaponry.  Although one arguably can't fight certain creatures with ranged weapons, this is countered with the fact that certain characters will be inherently cool enough that the DMs will give them custom weapons that can break DR.  I believe another part of this argument is that it is expected most archers will have some extra sneak attack damage to help exceed the DR, but I would argue that this shouldn't negate the proposed change entirely. As archers are generally the first to get the attention of mobs and thus be attacked, breaking DR and getting a damage point is hardly a game ending change.  To be fair, there is a ranged weapon available that breaks the DR on a more common nuisance in this setting, something that was only available to really rich midgets in the last one.

I don't agree with the conclusion.  Were it up to me and the technology was capable, I'd say implement magic weapon spells on ranged weapons.  It might not be doable though.

This will ruin the entire point of the AA class.

How so, Thomas?

Some of you may remember Peri… With the right build you can have your cake and eat it too.

QuotePeregrine Felicon (archer build)
Ranger (4) - Fighter (3)
Feats:
- Ambidexterity
- Armor Proficiency (heavy)
- Armor Proficiency (light)
- Armor Proficiency (medium)
- Called Shot
- Dual-Wield
- Favored Enemy: Undead
- Hardiness vs. Enchantments
- Immunity To Sleep
- Iron Will
- Keen Sense
- Low-light Vision
- Point Blank Shot
- Rapid Shot
- Shield Proficiency
- Skill Affinity (Listen)
- Skill Affinity (Search)
- Skill Affinity (Spot)
- Trackless Step
- Two-Weapon Fighting
- Weapon Focus (longbow)
- Weapon Proficiency (Elf)
- Weapon Proficiency (martial)
- Weapon Proficiency (simple)

I don't think the answer is making +1 arrows more common, but rather making items with magic weapon less common, then DR would mean something when every fighter over level 3 doesn't have at least 10 charges of magic weapon on them at any given time.

I really dont see any reason why arrows shouldnt be enchantable though. The enemies have a priority target on the archers as it is, and they close distance before you'll get more then a couple shots off. So distance isnt really the massive bonus. That and most npcs will be able to shoot you before you can shoot them.

I would be in favor of this suggestion. Its not as if people are afraid of non-rogue archers anyway.

[Proclaims a holy crusade on the vile thread necromancers.]

This has been argued to death.

lolnecromany

If the DMs could impliment this, I'd be all for! Although I'd suggest making it purely alchemical, good way to give power to archers that (as far as I'm aware) they don't have

Bows are pretty much fucking ineffective in all senses against the Undead as it stands. You can buy arrows but they're a fortune for like 1d6 bonus, since most have resistance to piercing.

Especially with this RISERPLOT in full swing, I fully approve of any efforts to buff arrows so archers can be of actual use. Tactics for fighting risers lately seem pretty mundane of "BUFFSMASH". Archers being able to come back into play is something I am all for.

I've always taken the stance that ranged weapons need to allow spells to enchant them somehow. Even if it's a lesser effect than what happens to melee weapons.

Greater Magic Weapon - +1 only on ranged weapons for the duration.

Magic weapon on the bow - Temporary bonus feat Enchant arrow, or if it's possible just script all arrows / bolts fired to have +1 for the duration.

Flame weapon / Darkfire - Adds 1d2/1d4/1d6 elemental damage to fired arrows. Even adding a temporary onhit casting of cantrips according to the damage type would be a good upgrade to nothing.

I'm also for lowering the rarity and value of the Mighty property!

Wholehearted approval.

Yes please. Especially with Nightrisers being the main plot, an archer, and especially a bow rogue, is almost a painful thing to play in these invasions and quests.

No need there are some recent implementations of bows that are pretty wild that I don't think many of the folk in this thread have found yet. Bows are fine. Rogues are as useless or useful with a longsword as they'll ever be a longbow also!

It has already been stated in the past that the dm's did not want to buff ranged weapons. Hell in this very thread in fact. I think its time folk stop asking every time they get stomped by/have to deal with an undead.

Quote from: TheImpossibleDream;170276No need there are some recent implementations of bows that are pretty wild that I don't think many of the folk in this thread have found yet. Bows are fine. Rogues are as useless or useful with a longsword as they'll ever be a longbow also!

It has already been stated in the past that the dm's did not want to buff ranged weapons. Hell in this very thread in fact. I think its time folk stop asking every time they get stomped by/have to deal with an undead.

I'm pretty sure that in another thread a DM or two actually said they were looking into things to do that helps archery while keeping it from the "risk free" zone that they are trying to avoid.

With Caddies and Secutor supporting this, and LPFF (before he was a DM!) and Mort opposing...

Let's look at it this way:
Enchanting a stack of arrows for +1 damage will not bypass DR, and might run out prematurely if the stack is small or gets used up.
Enchanting the weapon with +1 AB will bypass DR and even I know that is, for a ranged weapon, a bit too good.
Enchanting the weapon for +1 Mighty necessitates STR investment.

No matter what we do, it will not be satisfactory.

That sounds painfully complex.

Yeah, I agree with Eraamion, spending a lot to get a single rather strong yet also very limited in what it can be used for would be pretty awesome, it would add a lot of RP to the server in the creation of the server bygetting ingredients, crafter, recipe, etc.

And the pain it would put our scripters through is ignored...

Archers dont need anymore love imo

This has been suggested in the past many times, once by myself, even. DMs always shut it down with the same argument:

"If we do this archers will be too powerfull, we don't want archers to be powerfull"

And i expect it will be closed soon.

My stance is the same i post every time this suggestion is made: There are not enough archers in efu, this would add variety to the server. As it is, archers are useless against anything with DR, and PvPwise, drinking a potion of blur neutralises any non-rogue archer.

Quote from: ScottyB;170282Enchanting a stack of arrows for +1 damage will not bypass DR, and might run out prematurely if the stack is small or gets used up.

I agree doing this is pointless, no one will waste a magic weapon spell in 99 shots when they can use it on unlimited slashes, especially because the strenght of the spell is in the DR bypass and AB, but it could be usefull to make arcane archer builds.

Quote from: ScottyB;170282Enchanting the weapon with +1 AB will bypass DR and even I know that is, for a ranged weapon, a bit too good.

Not sure why. When we're talking about multiple NPCs shooting at you i agree, it's way too powerfull, but how many PCs using a longbow you think we'll see? However, as it is, drinking a potion of blur makes one inmune to arrows, unless the archer is a rogue.

I think the ideal thing is this to be implemented for a week, a month or so, to see how it works out.

Quote from: ScottyB;170282Enchanting the weapon for +1 Mighty necessitates STR investment.

Wich is terrible IMO, no point in even adding it.

I say, as i always have, just TRY IT if for a few weeks, if it turns out min/maxed elven archer suddently killed Trennada, laid siege to old port, burned the docks to ashes and is now king of the nightrisers because of his IMBA bowman powers, then remove it.

QuoteEnchanting the weapon with +1 AB will bypass DR and even I know that is, for a ranged weapon, a bit too good.

How is that too good? A fighter with a greataxe, 22 strength, and magic weapon is looking at 1-12 +12 damage through DR. An archer would be doing 1-8 +1 from range and when the space is closed he's resorting to taking AOOs or switching to a melee weapon that he likely doesn't have the feats for.

A decent Archery build requires Weapon focus, point blank shot, rapid shot (suffering -2 AB) and is a dex heavy build that lacks any sort of bonus damage. Even when I had the three feats mentioned and a bow with 1d6 cold damage (the same as Darkfire or flame weapon!)AND 4d6 sneak attack at three shots / round I was doing less DPR than a a moderately buffed fighter of a close level.

Giving the +1 would simply let them fight against Undead (who also have damage immunity) and get through blurring just as easily as anyone can with a sword. In the end they substitute raw damage and strength modifier for the range they get. Once that range is closed an archer is at a full loss no matter what buffs you give to them.

Quote from: AntoninD'Erlon;170307How is that too good? A fighter with a greataxe, 22 strength, and magic weapon is looking at 1-12 +12 damage through DR. An archer would be doing 1-8 +1 from range and when the space is closed he's resorting to taking AOOs or switching to a melee weapon that he likely doesn't have the feats for.

Any archer that shoots from a position that provokes an AOO deserves what's coming to him (and there are more than enough long hallways in interior areas that they shouldn't ever be "forced" into melee). The power of an archer is that they aren't touched by melee opponents, and that NPCs that are engaged in melee will switch to melee - thus, as long as the whole party isn't made of archers and the front line holds, the archers are pretty damn safe (and need less healing that can then be used on others). They also don't get in the way of front-liners, which makes the battlefield less chaotic. As was stated on pages 1, 2, and 3 of this thread: it's not their damage that makes ranged weapons powerful, it's that they're ranged weapons.

Quote from: Drakill Tannan;170306And i expect it will be closed soon.

This thread was started in 2008. It should have been closed two years ago, IMO.

It's amazing this thread isn't closed.

how about them throwing axes

OP

Quote from: ScottyB;170290And the pain it would put our scripters through is ignored...

As is the suggestion itself. Don't worry scotty, two can play at this game!