Firstly, I think some of the changes to the spells are pretty darn awesome. Congrats on finding a way to make the SF and GSF feats worth more. It's a great idea.
I think that some of the changes however may nerf some of the class spells and special items.
For example:
Bard with Iron Horn spell, now would cast at 14 opposed str roll? Also makes items and wands of this spell a bit less useful. A great escape spell, and many times cast vs ftr classes who are str buffed, an opposed 20 str roll gives you a chance. Now it seems to by my 14 str vs their buffed str in the opposed roll -- bummer!
Suggestion: make taking the SF and GSF perks affect positively on the spells, absolutely. But please don't nerf spells just becuase you don't have the feat.
yes i pretty much agree with this
Was C+C spell reverted to vanilla as it seems to imply? That is, +10 Spot/Listen for 1 round per level. Or is it still +15/+15 at 2 rounds/level? If so, I must point out that any diviner is just going to be walking around with 16 round/level ghostly visage with automatic stealth-detection...
On a server where I think we need to make pure rogues stronger, this is not good IMO!
Otherwise, excellent changes.
Why are Dms balancing out Diviners again? Divination is known as being the weakest school that all the other wizards poke fun at that. While I thought the scrying and Arcane Eye were nice as it gave Diviners the stuff that made them scary in PNP.
Still, Diviners are a particularly rare breed and lack the use of a very powerful school of spells- illusion. I agree that rogues don't need to be any weaker, but this is probably the best trade-off you can have.
Scrying is awesome but I can't imagine it's very easy to use, or can be used that often. Their only other awesome (well, now it is) spell is C/C. One could argue for truestrike, but a run of the mill Diviner isn't going to have all that much use for TS. And if they can't turn invisible to hide and run away, at least they can use spells to create a way to prevent someone from catching them off guard.
This is the break diviners have never had before, so making rogues stronger in in a different way is probably a better way to handle it.
For clarity, diviners aren't overly rare and scrying for most dedicated Diviners is usually hooked up for them by DMs one way or another. With the new spells and spell changes they're probably one of the strongest specializations, which is fine because they're probably the coolest too from a thematical standpoint.
I was merely pointing out that basically having automatic stealth detection for huge amounts of time per cast only weakens rogues further, a class everyone agrees needs buffs and not indirect nerfs.
Additionally, NWN has a cap of +20 to ab (through spells, that is).* Assuming EfU hasn't found a way around it, buffing True Strike to +25 is useless unless used in conjunction of a penalty to AB, such as power attack.
*So says NWNwiki.
One tiny note, 16 rounds isn't a very long time. Maybe a bit over two minutes.
Caddies, with SF Divination you get 4 rounds a level (2 rounds/level, doubled) and GSF you get 8 rounds a level (4, doubled) , which is 4/5 the duration of Blur. It doesn't just hit rogues, it hits bards, monks, and rangers in the town. Perhaps it'd be good to add the glowy eyes effect with simply SF Divination, as a feature that telegraphs "Hey, this guy has a divination up and he's GOOD, avoid him" if it's that bad. Really though, being able to see people is what a diviner does, whereas an Evoker would just Fireball the area and see if anyone burns ;).
Garem has it right, I reckon. The problem with rogues isn't a stealth arms race as much as the prevalence of un-sneakable mobs on the server and the difficulty in amassing a regular supply of traps without ending up with all the same sort off 1-2 quests, or paying through the nose.
A little silly yes. A Wizard can pretty much prepare 2 extended C/C and be fully buffed between every rest with massive detection.
Quote from: VanillaPudding;217190A little silly yes. A Wizard can pretty much prepare 2 extended C/C and be fully buffed between every rest with massive detection.
And any wizard who can cast illusions can remain
entirely unseen and unheard through invisibility spells that are a spellslot lower by simply dodging everyone around them. At level 6, two extended (or one not-extended at level eight) is enough to last from rest to rest.
I don't agree that having awesome detection abilities, which demand 3 feats (SF, GSF, Extend) and more than likely, but not necessarily forbids the use of illusion (in my opinion the most generally useful school of magic) is more powerful than that.
Diviners need the love. That was the point of the update to C/C to begin with.
Also, at level 9, you get 36 rounds with GSF. Extend that to 72.
72 rounds x 6 seconds = 432 seconds / 60 seconds = 7.2 minutes
Unless I'm mistaken on some numbers, which is certainly possible, it would require 3 level 4 spells to get close to rest to rest casting with 3.4 minutes without it.
Agree with Garem.
There are sides to everything. I personally believe, from RP side of the story that most may not like as it tends to "ruin" the fun, that mages are not supposed to be good at everything.
I like the lessened effect on certain spells, and bonus for those that actually study that area of magic. Makes perfect sense to me and they actually seem like diviners, transmuters, enchanters, illusionist and what not finally.
Quote from: Caddies;217164For clarity, diviners aren't overly rare and scrying for most dedicated Diviners is usually hooked up for them by DMs one way or another. With the new spells and spell changes they're probably one of the strongest specializations, which is fine because they're probably the coolest too from a thematical standpoint.
I was merely pointing out that basically having automatic stealth detection for huge amounts of time per cast only weakens rogues further, a class everyone agrees needs buffs and not indirect nerfs.
Point in fact, of course, that a wizard who sees your rogue stealthing around isn't particularly scary unless they're wielding PhK (which diviners don't).
Sending in a few disabling spells here would be nice, but all you'd be able to do afterward is jump around 'ahhh there's a rogue there, kill him, kill him' and all the people who didn't get detect skills are 'really, where?' and nothing else much happens.
Worst thing that can happen is getting a hold spell on your ass and the wizard spams no save damage spells. If you, as a rogue, weren't prepared to deal with that, you'd have been screwed attacking a wizard in the first place.
Quote from: Garem;217191And any wizard who can cast illusions can remain entirely unseen and unheard through invisibility spells that are a spellslot lower by simply dodging everyone around them. At level 6, two extended (or one not-extended at level eight) is enough to last from rest to rest.
I don't agree that having awesome detection abilities, which demand 3 feats (SF, GSF, Extend) and more than likely, but not necessarily forbids the use of illusion (in my opinion the most generally useful school of magic) is more powerful than that.
Diviners need the love. That was the point of the update to C/C to begin with.
Also, at level 9, you get 36 rounds with GSF. Extend that to 72.
72 rounds x 6 seconds = 432 seconds / 60 seconds = 7.2 minutes
Unless I'm mistaken on some numbers, which is certainly possible, it would require 3 level 4 spells to get close to rest to rest casting with 3.4 minutes without it.
Wand of invis - 1600 gold. Potions of invis - 80 gold each. Easily detecting all stealth classes for 14.4 minutes and getting free blur while you're at it - Priceless.
QuotePoint in fact, of course, that a wizard who sees your rogue stealthing around isn't particularly scary unless they're wielding PhK (which diviners don't).
Sending in a few disabling spells here would be nice, but all you'd be able to do afterward is jump around 'ahhh there's a rogue there, kill him, kill him' and all the people who didn't get detect skills are 'really, where?' and nothing else much happens.
Worst thing that can happen is getting a hold spell on your ass and the wizard spams no save damage spells. If you, as a rogue, weren't prepared to deal with that, you'd have been screwed attacking a wizard in the first place.
Hold and PHK are the only viable solutions obviously. Let's leave out the countless other spells and even other GSF options that automatic stealth detecting wizard has.
Quote from: Knight Of Pentacles;217175One tiny note, 16 rounds isn't a very long time. Maybe a bit over two minutes.
16 rounds
per level.
@ Garem- Any decent wizard, even ones who have access to illusion spells, will get both a wand of invis and a wand of improved invis eventually. Not to mention the countless invis potions. Its not really as great as you make it out to be.
QuotePoint in fact, of course, that a wizard who sees your rogue stealthing around isn't particularly scary unless they're wielding PhK (which diviners don't).
You couldn't be further from the truth. There isn't a single class in the game
more terrifying for a pure rogue than a wizard who can detect them, PHK or not.
And about any arguments regarding duration, suffice to say that 16 rounds per level for a single cast would be enough for any PvP situation if the target is known to be lurking (scrying - another diviner perk comes in handy here). And if you're not sure where your target it, just queue up two casts and roll out.
--
Didn't want this to turn into a rambling debate about rogues or how strong/weak diviners are, but there were alot of misinformed opinions that needed correcting. Anyway I know the DMs have discussed these spell changes at length with balance in mind, I was just pointing out this indirect nerf to all the stealthing classes, poor rogues amongst them.
Please do speak your concerns about these mechanic change. They were implemented in haste and a few balance issues may have slipped in.
The C&C being one of them... It's slightly absurd and I agree, as well as the few spells being nerfed for non-specialists, bards, rangers, etc.
For the record if it's 2 rounds/level vanilla then double that is 4 rounds/level. Double again is 8 rounds/level. That comes out to 48 seconds/level. This means a 6th level caster with GSF divination will have it in effect for just under 5 minutes in total.
More of a question
These changes take effect for wiz/sorc only, or anyone that can cast them?
@ Capricious - Yeah, I can double numbers too. I was assuming extended casts, of course, and said so at least once in one of my posts I believe.
Which makes it a 4th level casting, and only doable with three feats, which I know was also said. I personally think it would be good if the bonus to Spot and Listen were brought down to perhaps +10. However to lower the duration would make the spell fairly useless as a means for a diviner to gain a bit of DR.
Afterall, Ghostly Visage is a spell that is one level lower, as well as having a much longer duration, as well as granting concealment (now 20% for mages with GSF Illusion, I might add) and immunity to many spells. You see mages who walk about with it up near constantly, as well as high level mages who are keep Improved Invis up near all the time as well.
Clairvoyance still won't have near the duration of either of these, and diviners simply don't have the same kind of protection against ambushes that near every other school of wizard has.
You can claim people can buy blur potions and Improved Invis wands. Blur potions have a very short durations, while Improved Invis wands are prohibitively expensive for most who play here. I know I've never had enough gold on any character of mine to afford even one. They simply aren't a truly viable option.
The DR for Clairvoyance affords a diviner a small bit of protection (which has a ridiculously easy to get counter, I might add).
I agree with nerfing it to +10/+10, and don't have issue with the blur at all.
Invisibility is great. Blur is just as good, especially now. I stand by the facts based on how often both are used. Illusion is awesome, divination is not, even with these changes.
As a side note, am I mistaken in thinking "Vanilla" casting to mean the old change from 1 round/level to 2 round/level was overturned? Doesn't change my opinion, but it does make a difference.
Regardless, if a diviner takes all 3 feats and does indeed use 2 of their level 4 spell slots to do what the concern seems to be over and it actually becomes a problem (sic), then maybe this debate will be worth raising. Until then, the fact that there's a possible (but not certain) counter for a small minority of wizards against a much more significant number of stealth-users doesn't seem to constitute a major balance concern. Stealthers can skyrocket their H/MS up to 40 with the right equipment, feats, spells, etc. +15 Listen and Spot isn't exactly killing their ability to sneak, it just makes it harder.
More plainly, that it's possibly difficult to sneak up on someone who uses magic to divine the past, present, and future... well. Kind of makes sense, now doesn't it? A well-prepared rogue is sure as hell not going to be prevented from obliterating said diviner with a few standard buffs and a haste potion or two. Point being, just because you can see what's coming doesn't mean you can do a damn thing to stop it.
And they have glowing eyes. That's an easy way to know that you need to slip out before you get caught.
Stopped reading when you said divination isn't good.
Check out my Illusionist that has GSF Illusion and also GSF divination. Is it getting broken yet?
Balagarn's iron horn was absurd. In its original implementation, even having 20 strength would only give you a 50% chance to resist. Bringing it down to 14 makes it reasonable. Every spell and tactic needs a counter, and now having decent strength is one of them.
The notion of GSF C/C granting permanent "automatic detection" is, frankly, ridiculous. For the cost of 3 feats and several level 4 spell slots (a nontrivial or even crippling investment), you receive a sign which displays in BIG GLOWING EYES, reading "Diviner! Sneak further away from me until my spell runs out!". Auto-detection? Really? I don't think so. Factor in:
- Distance, ambient and other circumstantial modifiers
- Movement penalties to detection
- HALF-spot/listen rolls with ///d10/// on die for anyone NOT in detect mode
- Spot/listen as cross-skills for wizards and sorcerers
- The utter TRANSPARENCY of the spell at its full duration
- 30 hide/ms practically as a minimum for any stealth build on EFU
I think that the canny stealth build is secure. It's not a trivial change! I'm not arguing otherwise. But it's not going to kill rogues, and it makes a lot of sense thematically. Don't even worry about rogues right now.
Balagorn's horn was hardly OP since it targetted all of your allies. The knockdown is very short. Was a great spell, I find!
If it only knockdown your enemies, it would be OP... And oh no, Johannes, you've added the GLOWING EYES to the spell vfx .
We dont want permanent automatic detection for wizards ... ever .. That's sort-of why True-Seeing is nerfed. It's incredibly HARD to play a spy without being grossly min-maxed, which I dont condone. When I played a rogue and I had to invest in 3 feats too, stealthy, skill focus that and this, and my stealth was still gimpy and getting detected all the time.
30 hide / 30 ms as minimum for any stealth build on efu is something I'd expect an Omniworld administrator of a PvP arena server to say >_>;; Fact is very few stealthers will reach that legendary status (aside from Rangers in the wild) or 20 dex halflings/elves which are horrible ideas to condone.
lol 30 hide/ms, even my stealth builds never had that much and when they did they were werecats or druids in the wilderness fully buffed.
You'd have to cripple yourself completely to get 30 hide/move silent in a city area and even then somebody with 10 spot you if you moved about too much and they stood still.
Oh also did I forget to mention, that even if you're not in detect mode if you're standing still you get +5 bonus to detection, if they move they get -5 and if you set them to hostile you get an additional +5!
So effectively somebody with 30 stealth can be detected by somebody with 0 spot 0 listen so long as they are standing still and the stealther is moving.
If you are kitted out for stealth you can get around + 13 to hide/ms from items that are found throughout the module. With 16 dex and level 7 that would give you 26 hide/ms. 30 hide/ms doesn't really seem that insane.
We're digressing, but it's really not that hard to reach into the 30s for stealth. When I played my rogue spy their Hide/MS was around 34/34 inside the city (City Slicker perk) and this was without any buffs. It was a combination of 18 Dex, three feats, and the proper gear.
I'm not arguing that C&C shouldn't be adjusted, but I don't think it's so hard to get those kinds of stats as a full-classed rogue. Certainly being higher level helps, but don't forget to take full advantage of the C&C changes the diviner needs to be at least 7th level, and to have the "ideal" two Extended castings for an 8th level wizard with an 18 Int would mean two-thirds of their 4th level spell slots are already taken by this spell. A 17 or lower Int and they only get two 4th level slots. It's not as if every diviner will be able have this supposed "auto-detect" upon entering the PW. This is a far larger investment than is being represented, frankly.
Many times when playing my spy people would drink hearing or C&C potions as I was nearby, spying on them. Only once or twice did they actually see or hear them. The idea was to stay near some kind of cover, and whenever someone went to drink anything or cast anything you take those few steps away and out of perception. Being close enough to hear whispers, or behind closed doors, is when a spy is truly in danger, and that is how it should be in my opinion. And even then I spied on people behind closed doors many times and only once was ever caught...and that was by Detect Evil. I felt as if my spy was very effective, but I did it by being smart. I didn't spy on rangers, bards or other rogues, for instance, because the risk was too high. Being a good spy is about a lot more than being able to stand there undetected and listen anyway. If that's the entirety of your spy's repertoire you aren't likely to be that effective.
Again, if the detection bonuses need some adjusting to keep things in balance I won't disagree, although I feel calling it an automatic detection is an exaggeration based on my own experiences with spying. Amplify is quite a bit more effective for detection anyway as it's +20 to Listen.
If you adjust the spell duration you pretty much relegate the spell back to where people never actually cast it, and only carry about C&C potions or items they might find (although more tend to carry Amplify potions and items), since the DR's duration will be shorter than that of a blur potion.
I'm sorry for my long, rambling post, but what's being represented simply isn't my own experience playing a spy here on EfUA.
Thanks Mort, that was my point exactly on BIH. One round knockdown only, no damage, affects everyone even allies for one spell slot isn't OP, it's useful.
Nerfing it to 14Str makes it not useful.
Quote30 hide / 30 ms as minimum for any stealth build on efu is something I'd expect
True that. 30 is almost needed to do anything cool with MS/Hide, like...be a spy, sneak through wilds without getting instapwned, etc.
I hardly think that setting 30/30 stealth as your 'bar' is fair, as that includes a rather huge investment in feats, dexterity, and items, and pretty much destroys any combat capability your character has. We've all seen the incredibly limited use that a stealth built rogue has on even the simplest of quests on EfU, as most quests either require decent saves (for prevention of poisons, spells), or have creatures that are immune to sneak attack.
Sadly it is and has been the bar. I've had characters with mid 40s in both scores (buffed) that still got detected daily by anyone with a -slight- investment in detection.
I've played Wizards that, without this new OP spell change, had about 15 listen skill. This is basically automatic detection and as Mort mentioned, the entire reason true sight isn't default.
As for "don't worry about rogues" - Well, the newest changes have flavor but use two skills that -most- rogues never invest in a and forces them to drop required skills (disable trap, hide, ms, listen, open lock, set trap, ect) in order to take HEAL....so that they can maybe see if they can maybe sneak by someone or pickpocket them.
QuoteWe're digressing, but it's really not that hard to reach into the 30s for stealth. When I played my rogue spy their Hide/MS was around 34/34 inside the city (City Slicker perk) and this was without any buffs. It was a combination of 18 Dex, three feats, and the proper gear.
Bailey was a L10 pure rogue with all the stealth feats and
extremely good DM loot in nearly every slot. Let's not use her as evidence how easily it is to get good stealth please.
QuoteI'm not arguing that C&C shouldn't be adjusted, but I don't think it's so hard to get those kinds of stats as a full-classed rogue. Certainly being higher level helps, but don't forget to take full advantage of the C&C changes the diviner needs to be at least 7th level, and to have the "ideal" two Extended castings for an 8th level wizard with an 18 Int would mean two-thirds of their 4th level spell slots are already taken by this spell. A 17 or lower Int and they only get two 4th level slots. It's not as if every diviner will be able have this supposed "auto-detect" upon entering the PW. This is a far larger investment than is being represented, frankly.
Its not really, if you want to be protected. As a mage the only things that can kill you by surprise are stealthers who can track you at length until you are vulnerable (in distant areas with no allies with lingering buffs, etc). I know this because I have played a few very powerful wizards and this was my only concern because I had see invisible up 100% of the time (which is even easier now for Diviners with double duration See Invis...). On the flip side, I've also played a few assassin/stealther types of characters and I relied upon wizards not having good detection skills to stand much of a chance at getting to them properly.
QuoteMany times when playing my spy people would drink hearing or C&C potions as I was nearby, spying on them. Only once or twice did they actually see or hear them. The idea was to stay near some kind of cover, and whenever someone went to drink anything or cast anything you take those few steps away and out of perception. Being close enough to hear whispers, or behind closed doors, is when a spy is truly in danger, and that is how it should be in my opinion. And even then I spied on people behind closed doors many times and only once was ever caught...and that was by Detect Evil. I felt as if my spy was very effective, but I did it by being smart. I didn't spy on rangers, bards or other rogues, for instance, because the risk was too high. Being a good spy is about a lot more than being able to stand there undetected and listen anyway. If that's the entirety of your spy's repertoire you aren't likely to be that effective.
Yes, it comes as no surprise again that Bailey with her 40+ Hide/MS when it counted was not detected ever. Again, Bailey isn't a good example because her stealth was so far above the average. The average stealther will have
half her stealth, and no matter how careful they are, they will get detected by a wizard with a minimum of 15/15 Spot/Listen. This is, simply, a fact. Now if this wizard is away from his faction area and not questing, and is say L9 (sort of average for an established wizard) then he's going queue up a few extended C+Cs (which now double as blur, which he couldn't have up if a Diviner...and so will likely extend them - or at least, I would) and have more detection skills than a ranger in the wilderness for 90% of the duration until his next rest.
QuoteIf you adjust the spell duration you pretty much relegate the spell back to where people never actually cast it, and only carry about C&C potions or items they might find (although more tend to carry Amplify potions and items), since the DR's duration will be shorter than that of a blur potion.
I've played many wizards and they all carried one C+C spell at least, and several more if hunting a stealther. I think alot of other wizard players do the same, or have done. To say it was never cast is just an uninformed guess, sorry. :(
The duration of the blur effect of C/C is not that bad, but I will agree that having the detection buff last that long seems a bit much.
What do you guys think if the adjusted spell would keep it's duration, but have an initial "moment of clarity" where the detection skill buffs would apply, something close to the original duration of the spell, and fade away after, leaving just the blur effect?
If we're thinking about nerfing detection spells. Start with amplify. +20 listen as a L1 spell. It drops enough as a potion, and there are -some- bards that take brew/craft feats every so often to stock up.
Wizards can indeed buff with C&C, however stealthers have... Camouflage, One with the land, Grace. Potions and charges aren't that hard to get, there is tons of stealth gear too. Also, most dedicated stealthers have h/ms as class skills so they are easy to invest in.
Detection gets +1d20. Stealth does not. Ergo detection's better almost always.
It's why pesky rats will spot people with only 20 stealth. There's just so many!
(It's more complicated than that, I know, rats get +8 spot from size but the stealther also gets bonuses from the sewers relative darkness...)
This is being discussed internally but your suggestions are always welcome!
Going to go back to the more general line of the suggestion here, and suggest an addition I think would be cool. Making GSF Evocation give bonuses to Ice Dagger and Gedlee's, two spells rarely used because of their short range among other things.
Ice Dagger:
A caster with SF: Evocation deals 1d4+1 damage per level, to a maximum of 5d4+5
A caster with GSF: Evocation deals 1d6+1 damage per level, to a maximum of 5d6+5
Strong, yes, but has a reflex save and greater protection available (Insulation, Evasion) than Magic Missile or Negative ray and horribly short range but without AoE like Burning Hands.
Gedlee's Electric Loop:
A caster with SF Evocation increases its range to Medium.
A caster with GSF Evocation increases the Stun duration to 2 rounds.