Alright; as topic. In the first place I wanted to put this in the DM Q&A, but I decided perhaps a more general discussion might be fruitful, until a DM hates on trolls, locks this thread and gives a final ruling.
There's many items in this server, like Talisman of Moander, Ring of Maglubiyet, etcetc., that have an affinity to a certain Deity. How should, notably Clerics, but other divinely-inspired classes react to these? Would it be viewed as a sign of victory over another faith, or an affirmation that you need the other Deities 'power' in that item to protect you.
Similarly; crafted wands.
Discuss, and press 'Z' to chase your dreams again.
For example, With my paladin of Lathander. His holy symbol is a small mace with a sunburst at its top, enruned with holy scripture and blessings from his order back home, He is often when turning undead seen smashing in skulls and punching his foes with it for destructive effect. A holy symbol is an object inwhich your cleric/paladin sees his faith channeled threw. So it can be anything, for moander it could be a bit of grime hardened into the shape of his symbol, Talona a fang from a particularly large snake, Torm a judges gavel, Helm a watchers spear, Lathander of course- A mace, or some sort of sun inspired object.
That is my take on it, and the rp I will continue to use for it.
Personally, none of the Clerics or faith based characters that I have played have worn items blessed by a God that isn't their patron.
It would just feel wrong using items such as these that do not directly link to the faith of my character.
Clerics direct all of their attention to one Deity, and I am of the opinion that they wouldn't adorn themselves in holy symbols of any but their patron. Symbols are especially important to Faith characters, they are a visual representation of their beliefs. Displaying the symbol of a rival God would be in essence promoting a faith other than their own.
The Forgotten Realms deities are all fighting for power which they gather through worshippers, their clerics are an extension of their power through the realms. It seems a little strange to me that a Cleric would consider wearing anything other than the Holy relics of their own patron, unless they were following a Faith of secrecy; Shar, Mask, Cyric for example.
In real world terms, to me it would be like a Catholic Priest considering wearing a Pentagram, or some other religious symbol and still going about their day to day worship. It would no doubt cause confusion from their followers, and undermine a majority of their teachings.
Let's not take the judeochristian and monotheistic viewpoint that priests should be hostile towards all other deities, because in that particular case being another deity is synonymous with being another faith and hence false by default. That is not the case at all in FR.
It could be like a priest of Thor wearing a ring blessed by Odin, and if it's discreet, I see no problem with that. It could also, however, be like a priest of Thor wearing a ring blessed by Loki, and that could be questionable - but maybe not as much as we would think, given our backgrounds.
In other words, my view is...
1. If the deities in question share goals or have a similar nature, I see no issue with it at all.
2. If they are opposed to each other or really share no common ground, that might be questionable.
3. How opportunistic or pragmatic is the priest's deity? Trickster deities might be amused by the idea that their priest is using an artifact of Good to further their agenda.
Despite their differences, the gods are part of the same faith. A priest that too strongly denounces the other gods in this sort of system is less realistic and more likely to be scoffed at by the populace than a priest who aknowledges them as valid choices in their own right (and domains), but continues to preach the virtues of his own deity, which he considers best.
QuoteLet's not take the judeochristian and monotheistic viewpoint that priests should be hostile towards all other deities
I can see how my post came across like this, however I am not of the opinion that in the Forgotten realms setting that any character, Cleric or otherwise, should be played in this way. Obviously there are some exceptions to the rule, however a majority would believe that each God has a place, and every character should have some understanding what it is to live in a polytheistic society.
In the case of Races with smaller pantheons (Gnomes, Hin etc.) then I can see the use of other holy symbols being much more acceptable and normal practice. Generally there is much less rivalry between these deities, and many faiths in these races are interchangeable.
In the human Pantheon, however I feel there is much more divide. The greater number of Gods are mostly struggling for power, and even the closest of allies often have clergy that will be at war in some respect; be it social, or martial.
I agree totally that with Faiths that share similar goals and ideals then wearing symbols of these deities would be acceptable, although not to the point where they would wear large or ornate symbols. In my opinion, anyway.
My point really in mentioning the 'Priest' comment above was in respect to opposing, rival faiths.
I'd say if a cleric of Tyr was using a relic of Bane, like an Amulet. I would see an IC justification of this as the Tyrrian cleric has conquered the evil within the bane's amulet to further it's use of law and good. However this doesn't mean you can go around wielding a potent relic of your god's foe.
If that made no sense I'm sorry. :D
I could totally see a Cleric of Lathander using an evil tribal totem of a goblin god to ward his mind to fight of evil and win gold. [/end sarcasm]
Burn'em.
DMs have a habbit of throwing smite on clerics who wear other emblems of faith.
I have played a Banite in the past. And agreeably some clerics would be wary to use the divine powers of other gods. (Good example: Lathander using a Velsharoon talisman to destroy or command undead creatures). However, as some clerics, Including my Banite, where the power comes from isn't really an issue. I mean, Bane himself stole all the power he has now. My cleric isn't going to fuss where the power comes from, he will steal it and take it for himself. Just make the power submissive. Done through using an item.
I'd say its up to the character and the item in question.
I see nothing wrong with using wands of another faith, provided your faith isnt opposed to them. E.g. A Tormite using a banite crafted wand.
My clerics would never wield a holy symbol of another faith though. Its like insulting your god.
A thing like this should lead to spell fail imo. Unless the gods are allies.. Torm/Tyr style.
I've been hit with spell failure for this. It doesn't make much sense for a cleric. Most of the arguments to allow this kinda seem like justifications rather than genuine roleplay.
Paladin of vaprak represent.
On a more serious note, it seems stupid to me that a cleric would be wearing a talisman of another faith as this would be be spreading the other gods image and thereby increasing their influence?
Quote from: Random_White_Guy;219868Burn'em.
DMs have a habbit of throwing smite on clerics who wear other emblems of faith.
Indeed. You CAN do it, but be prepared to suffer for it. I learned this the hard way...
As a cleric, you shouldn't wear the holy symbols/relics/items of another god. Same usually with paladins. Druids aren't that strict and neither is ranger. As a Blackguard, do not wear an amulet of peace and good will.
Unless you're a cleric of Cyric.
What about the seemingly general items, that have no apparent connection with a deity. Mushroom fiber staff, totem mace?
Not even as a cleric of Cyric, Mask or Shar.
It may be argued against but if you are truly a cleric of any of these subterfuge gods or goddesses, you need more than talismans to convince anyone. Wearing the items of another faith just don't cut it, not as a cleric.
This is more of an issue regarding the items specifically devoted to certain deities than the mundane, general items.
Okay, but you're kind of reversing the point here, I think.
I mean, I understand the general ruling: you shouldn't wear holy items of a different god when you're a cleric.
But now you're saying subterfuge-lies-fake clerics can't wear those because just doing that doesn't cut it for impersonation. Who said it does? My point is that the talismans of other gods could just be used as a tool, not definitive proof.
We understand it when you wear them to blend in (IMPORTANT: Bluff and Charisma!) to a society and when you sleep with them for those nifty bonus spellslots. The difference is there. They can be used as a tool but there is a line.
This is for subterfuge deities who are okay about their clerics posing as other deities.
Individual deities in a pantheon are parts of a whole, you can see this by their divided roles. They're not a faith unto themselves, they are part of a faith in the various deities.
Though they are sometimes opposed (and these cases may be exceptions) they also aknowledge each other, deal with each other, make alliances and sometimes even love each other.
Would Kelemvor really be upset if his cleric wore a talisman of Mystra for protection while he fought necromancers? What about a cleric of Malar who wears a ring of Umberlee while hunting sharks?
Why shouldn't clerics wear talismans of other deities when it will help advance their deity's plans? Won't their deity be displeased they're not using everything at their disposal to further their plans?
And since gods have many varying degrees of relationship with each other, why should there be a blanket ruling at all rather than a case-by-case judgement depending on which deities exactly?
Your character, if a stern devout or priest, should not wear Talisman/Holy symbols of other Deities. Although alliance between faith is possible, if you are a priest, your entire equipment should reflect that and loopholes will just show lack of devotion. You wont necessairly get spellfailure unless you wear like holy items of enemy faith, but you are likely to shoot down any bonus favors for devoted clerics.
Your local 'i pray to the god that fits the moment' polytheist common man can certainly argue how fitting it is to use such and such divine item at an appropriate moment.
But clerics and paladins are not just commoners in a polytheist world: they devote their lives and souls to them, hours of prayers, preaching, converting, advertising, sacrificing, offering, depicting, but mostly buffing in the name of the one and only one, because they -know- their god's dogma and ways is the right one.
Using other symbols is lacking faith. It's obeying the lure of other gods that want you to worship them. They are so malign they make yourself be convinced that 'on occasion', you can, then slowly you find yourself thanking them, not the true one.
If you worship Mask and have a box full of holy symbols to fit the occasion, great. If you keep equiped your regular Moander amulet for the +1AC, not great.
Basically, change your deity whenever you find a holy symbol with better bonuses.
Quote from: MrGrendel;219904Individual deities in a pantheon are parts of a whole, you can see this by their divided roles. They're not a faith unto themselves, they are part of a faith in the various deities.
Though they are sometimes opposed (and these cases may be exceptions) they also aknowledge each other, deal with each other, make alliances and sometimes even love each other.
Would Kelemvor really be upset if his cleric wore a talisman of Mystra for protection while he fought necromancers? What about a cleric of Malar who wears a ring of Umberlee while hunting sharks?
Why shouldn't clerics wear talismans of other deities when it will help advance their deity's plans? Won't their deity be displeased they're not using everything at their disposal to further their plans?
And since gods have many varying degrees of relationship with each other, why should there be a blanket ruling at all rather than a case-by-case judgement depending on which deities exactly?
That is my own view.
That said -- wearing a amulet of say Umberlee to gain spell slots makes no sense for a cleric of another faith.
What defines a 'holy symbol or relic', though? For example:
"Talisman of Moander: A simpel cord with a small rotting skull attached to it at its end. Insects and worms of all kinds seem to come from the skull from time to time. Efforts to remove them fail miserably.", "Goblin Shaman Ring: A small enchanted ring enchanted by the followers of the goblin god Maglubiyet." or "Jergali Ceremonial Girdle: An old belt made from leather. Small skulls are attached to it."
Let's be honest here. Nothing here indicates that it's a Deity's symbol of any kind. Well, arguably the Talisman of Moander can be. But for the description, that I personally think is put in for mere flavor, there's no way to IC find out whether or not it's a tribute to some God, nor does it show so physically.
Half the items in this server are in related to some God. Should we all just discard 'flavored' items on all Clerics? Because personally I don't see it as an issue until you outright use, say, a Cloak with Cyric's skull with purple flames coming around it representing the Dark Sun on a Priest of, well, anyone else. It's just these small items I'm discussing.
Anything that's an amulet (If it has a Divinity's name in its name, you know due to Lore that's an holy symbol of that deity). Anything that has clerical spell slots.
But really, the more you are a devout, the more you should avoid these items that have other divinities harbouring them.
Quote from: Mort;219924Anything that's an amulet (If it has a Divinity's name in its name, you know due to Lore that's an holy symbol of that deity). Anything that has clerical spell slots.
Okay. But you mention amulets specifically. What about rings and belts, and anything else?
Quote from: Coldburn;219926Okay. But you mention amulets specifically. What about rings and belts, and anything else?
I think it's fair to say that anything with another deities name attached to it would be included.
I believe that once an item is identified, all of the flavourful text that is with it would be information known to your character.
I could be wrong though.
I would think it totally cool for a Paladin of Lathander, an easy going jock sort of guy, a human representative of his God and his God's ideals to sport a little cross faith Bling Bling. You know, a little talonite ring here (just for the save bonuses, not because it has a talonite symbol on it), a shark tooth necklace talisman with holy inscriptions of the Troglodyte God, (for the bonus to taunt dude, and that it could look cool on polished ancient Jergalite armor - with the Jergalite symbol emblazoned on the front).
But just so long as he calls out "Go Lathander" more often and has atleast his holy symbol displayed along side all the others.
I would tend to agree that Clerics of a Deity should not wear items of another faith. But, lets face it, sadly there are not items for each God out there.
In order for me to have rings, staffs, belts etc. I would need a DM to give me each of them, as I have never seen a random item to my Characters Deity. So that would leave me without the added spells or saves that other Clerics have access to.
I pick the Deity by flavor and what fits the character idea I have. I would hate to see Clerics chosen because of the random loot / drops that are found on the island.
Speaking of opposed deities, I'm even inclined to say that if a cleric of Malar somehow attains a protective amulet of, say, Torm, and uses it to further his agenda, the one to be upset should be Torm and any Tormites that spot this, rather than Malar. Why would Malar be upset that his priests are bending Torm's relics and power to his will? It would be nice, however, if said priest roleplayed a consecration/desecration of said item.
Could the consecrate skill somehow be used to add a line to item descriptions along the lines of "This item has been consecrated to [Deity]" along with a minor gold cost?
Quote from: MrGrendelCould the consecrate skill somehow be used to add a line to item descriptions along the lines of "This item has been consecrated to [Deity]" along with a minor gold cost?
This would be rather nice. The trouble is that the status of items isn't always clear - I had an amulet once that was described as a "bronze disc" (or something nondescript like that) that was "often used" by followers of a particular deity. Now, did that mean that it was a holy symbol, or that it was blessed by that particular deity, or simply that it was a magic item that just happened to be "often used" by a particular group? The description suggested the latter but it was named "Amulet of [God]" so it was hard to say for sure.
QuoteWhy would Malar be upset that his priests are bending Torm's relics and power to his will?
Because it promotes belief and faith in Torm at the same time, and in my opinion, that is opposed to the daily acts of faith and religious adherence that a priest needs to do to maintain his spells and devotion to his God. Clerics realize that there are other Gods out there, but are -devoted- to theirs, and that dogma.
As to the rationalization of "there aren't enough belts, rings, etc without other gods holy symbols on them" - Don't wear them IMO. ANy priest worth his faith would get spell failure in any of my campaigns until he took it off. Besides, it's not as if Clerics as a class are nerfed, and really -need- that extra +1 Fort Goblin Bishops Holy SYmbol boost. They cast great spells,
in armor, and have a good AB and save progression.
Yes, the bonuses are often negligible and you'll keep your roleplay integrity!
A cleric for sure should never wear a holy symbol of another god, I would even say that goes for allied gods like the Triad, etc.. A cleric promotes his own god not his gods allies no matter how close they are. That said, I do wish there were more holy symbols and such for other gods. Most of that I have seen are evil ones.
I think the point came across. While I do not agree with the DMs on this and feel more for MrGrendel's points (not just because it's convenient), since I believe that even besides that most loot is simply given a description and religion is an easy flavor to add, they're still the ones who can smite your Cleric with spell failure.
So I'm gonna sell some shit soon!
Why not add a shop that sells flavored items from all faiths in one of those secret areas.
Here is how it would work. You see an inventory screen full of items you cannot afford. All of them are labled stuff like "Belt of" "Symbol of" "Ring of" all you then have to do is select through a dialogue option which item you want, pay a fixed price via the dialogue and then the item spawns in your inventory renamed "Belt of Cyric" "Ring of Umberlee" etc etc.
Sorry if I'm sort of derailing this thread, it would solve this issue though I think!
Thread was /thread, imo. Go ahead and derail it as much as you want until a DM locks it.
Roleplay is not the loot you wear.
Quote from: The Beggar;220033Because it promotes belief and faith in Torm at the same time, and in my opinion, that is opposed to the daily acts of faith and religious adherence that a priest needs to do to maintain his spells and devotion to his God. Clerics realize that there are other Gods out there, but are -devoted- to theirs, and that dogma.
As to the rationalization of "there aren't enough belts, rings, etc without other gods holy symbols on them" - Don't wear them IMO. ANy priest worth his faith would get spell failure in any of my campaigns until he took it off. Besides, it's not as if Clerics as a class are nerfed, and really -need- that extra +1 Fort Goblin Bishops Holy SYmbol boost. They cast great spells, in armor, and have a good AB and save progression.
The difference between your campaign and EfU is that EfU is a persistent world with mostly random loot table, whereas the loot is wholly dependent on the DM in your campaign.
While I'd agree that a cleric shouldn't wear items of another faith, I think it's fair to clerics that they can with generic deity loot due to the absence of continuous DM supervision and reward.
On a side note, i dully noted more items of standard deities faith could solve part of the issue discussed here.
I actually think less items connect to a God would solve the issue here. When you add more Deity-related items to a random loot table the chance only diminishes you get it. Do away with it altogether, in my opinion, and reward Clerics who do things right with a flavored item instead.
Would it be reasonable for a cleric of Lathander to wear stuff of the other ancient-sun-god-dude? Like armor with giant sun-symbol on it and stuff like that.
A lathanderite, like my own, wears armor of his lord- his blade is of lathander, yet his helm cape shoes amulet and rings are objects he has earned and though they may be blessed by other gods, he wears them and still goes forth with his same crusade for the light..
As they say-
It isnt the Wargear that makes the Space Marine, But his zeal to do the Emperors will.