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This isn't meant to be a complaint really, just a question and a suggestion.

I've played and met through some of the DM factions, Stygians, Sons, Order, Conclave, but there really isn't any powerful, (or at least meagerly NPC supported) good aligned faction.

I know this is probably how you guys designed the setting, and i just think that maybe a little NPC supported Goodness could spice things up.

It seems to be almost 100% favored on the side of evil (though i know you enjoy boundaries being drawn more on ideas and less on alignment, as far as i have read).

There are various NPC faction groups who are just all to happy to murder any good aligned person who gets in their way with no remorse.

Is there a single NPC Paladin, or band of Paladins, or even lowly peoples avenger type group in the docks, who could stand up against the atrocities, at least once in a while.

I know i love the PC driven conflict and etc, but i've noticed goodly folks being wildly taken advantage of IC. I think it would be realistic that some goodly folks from the Isle, whoever they are, would be cognisant of what is going on. (or perhaps i've never encountered them, or a similar group IC) I also agree that the evil balance of the server makes it challenging, and interesting, and would like to see it stay that way, but it just feels a bit too balanced on the side of evil doers, etc...

Anyway, just my suggestion, all the best.

The Order is based around an Ymphan version of the Triad and Helm, four of the more prominent Good aligned deities.

In action though, they are rather 'Grey knight' Good, fighting evil and the like with methods a Paladin, for instance, would not use.

In the same way, both the Sons of Sabuth and the Conclave would work well with Good aligned PC's-- The problem isn't the factions, it's that people are always playing Evil characters.

It's something I've noticed on the server since the end of the Seekers, and then the end of the First Bolt and the Pallid Mask. The Order is ostensibly LG (this is on the word of Dan himself) but it's pretty heavily slanted to law and their end justifying any means they take. Not to mention being religious zealots only open to PCs of their own faith.

We did have the Black Harpers, but Howland ran out of time for it. Really I miss the Fleet of the First Bolt, which got shut down the week or so after it got a whole six new members at once. Mostly CG-aligned anti-pirate raiders. Really, we're missing a Good-aligned settlement of some kind, where such a faction could prosper, although Fellhammer Hold comes close. The loss of the Colony from Sharboneth to the Armada also ruled out the "law" faction for Good.

I know we'll get a lot of "Make a PC faction and get attention" comments, but I've found them rather hard to run as people tend to miss concentrating on the benefits of Good (We won't stab you in the back, principally) as a way to recruit non-good PCs into the faction for selfish ends like profit, then work on making them better people.  Just saying "yo let's be righteous" is the flip side of "let's make Cyricists and kill stuff", a bit flat and limiting. On the other hand, "Let's try and gain personal power in order to start turning Duchy Law away from being a shield for evil/use Conclave influence to declare infernalists renegade" has conspiracy, involvement, lots of reasons to get in. Also, Good factions have tended a lot towards ignoring institutional Evil and then getting jaded or psycho-smitey, rather than politically undermining them.

My suggestion would be make overtures to Lord Durjure, he's the "good" lord. My suggestion to the DMs would be to add something to the setting where you can be sure that clearly supporting Good can get you rewarded with power/RP in the same way that backing up the Dominion can get you Lordship etc. An inroad for players to say "hey, I should totally make a PC to try and become am Ilmateri Agent" or whatever. There's a lot of threats to Good PCs, but few roads to power.

Finally, Good doesn't have to be nice or honourable. Good PCs can be spies, they can lie, they can cheat, they can shoot first. If I'd been in the Bastion of Light I'd have spent half my time looking to catch Evil PCs doing something illegal, or even frame them for it since the law's so corrupt anyway. Be devious, and find ways to recruit people that don't involve being selfless champions. Look at how Evil factions suck in members.

Aye, it's very interesting to me as well.

In my personal opinion/philosophy though, and i don't want to get to spoilerish, that anyone involved with murdering Paladins (for whatever reason, lawful or otherwise) or other paragons of goodness should be instantly alignment turned to evil.

I know there's alot of aspects, that i've only partially learned IC, about this specific instance, but just my two cents. (for all i know, this could have already happened)

Join the society of the ordered mind.

The factions we have aren't Evil, per se. They're morally neutral, and can (and do) appeal to a wide spectrum of PCs. This is intentional, and I personally like to believe that a faction that allows for a large number of concepts is much better than a generic "crusader" faction that pidgonholes its membership.

If you're interested in making a crusader faction, you might consider making a player faction, gathering members, and getting some stuff done. We're always on the lookout for these concepts, especially actively Good PCs, because it's true that the EfU:A setting is hard on them.

There was no issue of Paladins being 'murdered'.

I won't divulge the explanation to the events here, but suffice to say the Order is both Good and Lawul.

Additionally, Paladins have agendas too. Agendas conflict, decisions, perspectives and ideas conflict. Actions by someone, even though this person is acting believing his cause righteous, can on this island mean horrible things for others. Good characters can in many situations justify attacking or fighting Paladins.

Being Lawful Good with the twist of having detect evil does not make one infallible.

Quote from: Listen in Silence;222070The Order is based around an Ymphan version of the Triad and Helm, four of the more prominent Good aligned deities.
 
In action though, they are rather 'Grey knight' Good, fighting evil and the like with methods a Paladin, for instance, would not use.
 
In the same way, both the Sons of Sabuth and the Conclave would work well with Good aligned PC's-- The problem isn't the factions, it's that people are always playing Evil characters.

Helm is LN.
 
This further proves your point, but just saying. The fact that Helm is LN is what makes him so interesting.

The Order is a TN faction, leaning toward LN. The Sons are CN, very rarely does a CG one pop up, and more often they're evil. For good characters, the best you can hope for is to be one of the few good guys among an army of neutral and evil characters. As for murdering paladins... Yeah, that's generally an evil act, but there was a lot more to said paladin's death. (though overall, in my opinion, it was an evil act, an evil act in the cause of a greater good)

The Pallid Mask used to be the haven for good guys, but they're gone. Fleet of the First Bolt used to be a great CG faction, too. Unfortunately, they're gone now. Some good aligned faction would be great, in my opinion, but for now we'll have to work with PC factions that are good aligned. Maybe one day one of the PC factions will be good enough to be a DM faction, I recommend working toward that if you really want to see this.

Quote from: Nightshadow;222078(though overall, in my opinion, it was an evil act, an evil act in the cause of a greater good)

Hence, grey.

Quote from: Listen in Silence;222076There was no issue of Paladins being 'murdered'.

I won't divulge the explanation to the events here, but suffice to say the Order is both Good and Lawul.

Additionally, Paladins have agendas too. Agendas conflict, decisions, perspectives and ideas conflict. Actions by someone, even though this person is acting believing his cause righteous, can on this island mean horrible things for others. Good characters can in many situations justify attacking or fighting Paladins.

Being Lawful Good with the twist of having detect evil does not make one infallible.

Whether he was 'murdered' or 'legally killed' is a subject up for debate IC i believe. Aye, they have agendas, but they're also some of the few people who have, never robbed someone, never murdered anyone, having the pure heart of a child, if i may rephrase what has been talked about IC.

Regardless, it's like killing a child. (in my opinion, which i think is based on rules)

Why not app to be a Retainer of Lord Dujure?

QuoteIn my personal opinion/philosophy though, and i don't want to get to spoilerish, that anyone involved with murdering Paladins (for whatever reason, lawful or otherwise) or other paragons of goodness should be instantly alignment turned to evil.

You're wrong there, Paladins =/= Celestials. They are men and they are faillible. If they are faillible, then they can make mistake like everyone and if such a mistake leads to their death, it doesn't mean other people who punish one for that mistake are 'evil'. They're simply 'lawful' as in following a code very closely.

QuoteThere are various NPC faction groups who are just all to happy to murder any good aligned person who gets in their way with no remorse.

This whole topic smells of OOC grievances over IC events. Since you didn't assist to their death or the events that led up to them, you may not be the best judge of our faction's alignments based only on rumors. Our factions contain many NPCs each with their own profile and agenda.

Quote from: gab1;222081Whether he was 'murdered' or 'legally killed' is a subject up for debate IC i believe. Aye, they have agendas, but they're also some of the few people who have, never robbed someone, never murdered anyone, having the pure heart of a child, if i may rephrase what has been talked about IC.
 
Regardless, it's like killing a child. (in my opinion, which i think is based on rules)

From what I can read here you have no idea what was going on between the Order and these PCs.

Quote from: Yalta;222082Why not app to be a Retainer of Lord Dujure?

Heh, maybe one day, thanks for the suggestions. I've never actually encountered or heard of this character/NPC IC or OOC but hey, maybe one day. It is indeed very interesting to hear.

Quote from: Mort;222085You're wrong there, Paladins =/= Celestials. They are men and they are faillible. If they are faillible, then they can make mistake like everyone and if such a mistake leads to their death, it doesn't mean other people who punish one for that mistake are 'evil'. They're simply 'lawful' as in following a code very closely.



This whole topic smells of OOC grievances over IC events. Since you didn't assist to their death or the events that led up to them, you may not be the best judge of our faction's alignments based only on rumors. Our factions contain many NPCs each with their own profile and agenda.

By the way man, no this was not in any way OOC grievances, in fact, im quite satisfied with the way things are going with my character.

I'd totally disagree with you about killing Paladins being a 'non-evil' act. I'd always taken that morality in FR is cut and dry and if i was a DM, i'd totally disagree with you, but i respect and understand.

There has been plenty of good aligned factions.

 Palid Mask

Blackpin slayers

the Old Numinous Order.


Though in Sanctuary we had

Seekers (which was not for paladins)

Greycloaks/New Dunwarren (dont think these were DM factions though.)


Also I would say that this has been done to death. All the time  I have heard "Oh Dms love evil pcs" Ironmantle a paladin was made a lord so if good aligned PCS truly wanted to they could amount to Lordship as well.      

In my opinion the problem with good aligned PCS is that they aren't doing enough smiting.

And by the way, i'd definately say i'd 'assisted' in the events that led up to the various events we're talking about.

Anyway, it's okay to disagree, i actually like to hear other peoples opinions, and have no intention in arguing.

And in response to what Mort said about fallibility, just to clarify my own position. I compare a Paladin to a child, that, yes they are both fallible, capable of both evil and lawlessness, but they are both also innocent and sacrosanct to the Gods, and any morally guided people.

Yes, a child can be doing stupid things in someones IC opinion, but does killing them for their lawlessness not equate to at least some degree of evil. I'd say that Paladins are more sacrosanct and holy than even children, in the eyes of the Gods, and i always try to represent that when i DM or etc.

Also, the IC cold heartedness to kill someone like a Paladin (or child). Doesn't this equate at some level to evil? (as i feel it does in RL as well as my roleplaying exploits)

Not at all. A Paladin could see you hanging near Evil people, assume you're an ally of them, and come at you with his sword as he tries to kill Bob the Necromancer. You promptly kill him in self defence. Not an Evil act. Or the Paladin thinks that cannibalism is evil and declares he will capture and "redeem" Stargazers. You're a Stargazer. You kill him to protect your way of life. A Paladin of Siamorphe is involved in a war, and you serve an opposing Lord as a soldier. You shoot him, it's war. Not an Evil act. See, that's just two examples.

One has responsability over his action while the other is innocent through and through. Paladins can fall from grace, like any other PC can.

Anyway, you say you dont have grievances, but this whole topic is filled with passive aggressive judgment about that situation.

I truly in my heart of hearts am not in any way OOC feeling maligned or unhappy (except maybe by the fact that some characters i enjoyed are gone, but that is disconnected OOC)

I'll butt out and let you take the floor. Just my opinions though, saying what is on my mind.

I'll conclude that i am giving my opinion of how i would act if I was DMing, and what i would implement to make the game more enjoyable for myself (as that's all who i can really speak for).

This topic is interesting though, and it would be sad to see it fall down the pipe of "discussing specific IC events and eventually get locked". Could we stop discussing that particular paladin death, and go back to focusing on the original topic? :)

Any action on the server by -any- character can be taken as justification to kill another. Opposing gods, fighting alongside the wrong people, talking to the wrong people, simply not getting involved... The Order for example has it's own code and ethics on how to keep itself protected to do the greater good. Every decision though can be nit picked over whether it was actually evil or not.

Killing when there is no option is neutral. It's not a good or evil act. Killing when there's an alternative is evil. Allowing free when you could kill is good. To simply state this takes out too many variables. What if Legenis did plan to release H'bala? What if Oisin did mean to kill Snow? Too many "what ifs" can leave the lines blurred. Some could state the Conclave is good aligned because they try to keep the peace. Some the Sons because they oppose tyranny and slavery. The Stygians with their sense of honour in battle.

Depending on the viewpoint of the character and the player any faction really could be classed as good aligned, neutral or evil. Seldom is there a definate description of what -is- good because the character has to develop that for themselves. Just like in RL where war and death can and is justified in certain situations.

Quote from: Listen in Silence;222070The problem isn't the factions, it's that people are always playing Evil characters.

And good characters that don't band up together efficiently or that are more mouthy than active.

There's room for good people in all factions, especially the Order, and there's nothing preventing Good PCs joining the Armada to try to change the LE-slaver branding they've developped.

Quote from: Dr Dragon;222091There has been plenty of good aligned factions.

 Palid Mask

Blackpin slayers

the Old Numinous Order.


Though in Sanctuary we had

Seekers (which was not for paladins)

Greycloaks/New Dunwarren (dont think these were DM factions though.)


 

I think this is the point DrD.  Of all the "good" factions you listed, the only one around is the Order. And, let's face it.. it may technically be "good" but most of us see it as Neutral at best.

I think, and I could be wrong here, the original post was about giving those that prefer to play the "good" guys at least some option to join a Faction other than the Fanatical view the Order has.

The Fleet of First Bolt is an excellent example, it was just starting to really take off, when it was 'shut down'.

The Black Pins never really got a fair shake as the DM in charge had RL reasons not to aid them.

The Pallid Masks got outed when the Conclave created the shield.

Now yes, you can play a good guy in the Sons though I remember not long ago a DM stating that it is not what the Docks was meant to be or the Sons for that matter.

You can also play good in the Concalve, though when I was in it, and was good aligned PC it was less painful to beat your head against a wall. (Lots of 'evil' guys in at the time.)

So, there is no place that your 'average' good guy can go and find a home.

Just my .02.

One of my PERSONAL enjoyments out of EfU is the grey that covers anything.
 
Your stereotypical good organizations are in a grey shroud, recacting and acting like real people instead of a sterotype of shining knight with a white horse. It give the server real flavor and body, very similar to some of my personal favorites of writers like Dan Abnett or George RR.
 
Not to get too preachy or wordy (because jeez, look at my post count, I CAN'T have an opinion yet!) but the concept of good and evil should be left up to the individual players to determine.
 
I'm sure this will cause a shit storm indeed but I wanted to throw in my two cents

Efu has had many good aligned factions.

Black Harpers- Secret faction basically the good version of the rubies.

Pallid mask, More the superman of the good side of things, sticking to a strict code and focusing on the nightrisers.

The order- More batman than superman in terms of style, they are still a good dominated faction.


The bastion of light(Pc faction).

Yes, the server has a strong pull towards evil, but I've noticed it's more to do with certain flavours and concepts running around at the time. The server bounces between alignments and IMO is rather neutral as a whole.  

If you feel like setting something new up, go right ahead. Thinking outside the box and trying new things is always a sure fire way to make a difference.

If you don't agree with the order's methods, why not make a secretive group dedicated to abducting them and putting them on trial in the name of the real triad not the three and one.

Quote from: Black_TopHat;222116Your stereotypical good organizations are in a grey shroud, recacting and acting like real people instead of a sterotype of shining knight with a white horse. It give the server real flavor and body, very similar to some of my personal favorites of writers like Dan Abnett or George RR.

I usually don't contribute to threads like this before having properly thought stuff through, but I wanted to share a thought I had on this matter only a little while ago. I haven't really thought this through fully, and it's certainly not a proper argument (not even sure what I would be arguing with or against), but here it is:

The thought I was having is that the server climate is actually swinging so far away from the stereotypical fantasy fiction cliches that it's swinging -past- "realistic" and moving close to an imbalance in the opposite direction.

What I mean is; Standard fantasy cliches attempt to emulate the "perfect" character archetypes in their respective area. It's pretty close to being black and white.

Real life reality is full of moral grey zones, because it's filled with real people. What real people have, though, are real consequences, and these balance the morals and actions of people even though there is no black and white.

Now, what we have here is an emulation of the real-life grey zones, but without the full impact of real life consequences. If you die, you roll a new character, if you fall from grace, that's a cool RP opportunity, if you murder someone, the worst that can happen is that your fictional creation gets put on trial and executed. There are severe, and realistic consequences for morally grey or black acts, but they are, obviously, aimed at our fictional characters, turning them into "neat roleplaying factors" rather than actual, real-life negative consequences.

Thus, I figured that maybe the striving for a total emulation of the real life moral grey zones, with the reality of only having fictional consequences (that are actually often wholly positive for our real selves) is actually swinging the balance of the server into what's more of a direct extreme opposing the "boring cliche fantasy niche", rather than some kind of middle ground.

Well, this turned into quite a rant, and I am not proposing anything in connection with it (especially not anything having to do with trying to add real-life consequences to the game O_o), but as I said earlier I thought of this as a possible reason for why things are the way they are, that might give some insight in how things can be rebalanced again.

Food for thought!

 - Wrex

^
TL;DR, the Server is swinging away from cliche, yes, and right into the other end of the spectrum, GRIMMMDARRRRKKKK in the future there is only WAHR

^
 
You insult my job sir! I SHALL DUEL YOU! =)
 
 
But in all seriousness I do agree with Wrex. Steroetypes have their place. I don't think we should go from steroetypes to everybody being a bland neutral shrugging kinda character (which I personally see as the oppositie of cliches/strongly defined)
 
But I deviate way too much, I'm putting far too much of my personal feeling into this but I can't play Good OR Evil characters without falling into the sterotype role. Becuase when i hear "Paladin" I hear and see stereotype. When I hear "Blackguard" I see and hear baby eating stereotype.
 
And yes, I didn't think this post out at all, I'm rambling

It's more that although a cliche Evil Pc can go far, especially a cliche tyrant or sycophant, there's a distinct difficulty in rising a Good PC tot he same level without having to compromise a lot. So you have a lot of grey areas in Good concepts, but playing Evil's a lot simpler and the law/setting protects them to a good degree. And now I want to play a splatterfest lunatic Urdlenite again...

Wrex's nailed something important though. Playing evil characters is at no cost when you do evil stuff. But playing a Good pc is at no benefit in comparison, since evil pcs get along quite well. Hence the trend of evil guys and the neutral trend of good faction. I'll give it a thought, but carebear factions aren't great, usually, either.

Quote from: Wildlings;222115I think this is the point DrD.  Of all the "good" factions you listed, the only one around is the Order. And, let's face it.. it may technically be "good" but most of us see it as Neutral at best.

I think, and I could be wrong here, the original post was about giving those that prefer to play the "good" guys at least some option to join a Faction other than the Fanatical view the Order has.

The Fleet of First Bolt is an excellent example, it was just starting to really take off, when it was 'shut down'.

The Black Pins never really got a fair shake as the DM in charge had RL reasons not to aid them.

The Pallid Masks got outed when the Conclave created the shield.

Now yes, you can play a good guy in the Sons though I remember not long ago a DM stating that it is not what the Docks was meant to be or the Sons for that matter.

You can also play good in the Concalve, though when I was in it, and was good aligned PC it was less painful to beat your head against a wall. (Lots of 'evil' guys in at the time.)

So, there is no place that your 'average' good guy can go and find a home.

Just my .02.

I lied, i came back to respond to this. lol This is basically what i was saying, someone with aspirations for goodness might have a difficult time finding kin. This is what PC factions are for, and i totally agree, but sometimes certain PC's don't join, or are preoccupied at the time, 'the stars don't align.' This happens with DM factions as well, and there are some with less people than others.

That's why i'd be more supportive of a DM faction where sometimes, for example, the comforting feeling of having some NPC prescence, whether it just be a mere sending, knowing that some segment of the game population agrees with you. There's also the 'guiding hand' of the DM which makes the players feel comfortable and happy. This is obviously time donation to you guys, and it's a suggestion.

I just think some sort of noble protector organization (maybe church of Ilmater break off, or something like that) would really add more dimension to the world. While still obviously (considering this hypothetical organization) causing huge conflict against the Stygians, and maybe lesser against the Numinous, and all the factions really, especially if they were situated in the Docks. I think it would be interesting, aiding the Docks, uniting (or being embattled) with the Sons, i would imagine.

Alright, time for a rant.

I think the trouble is people keep trying to qualify it as "Good" and "Evil".

Evil is, yes, more rewarding on EFu. That's because it's multifacited and diverse and people take a lot of huge chances.

Not to be negative, and yes I do agree there's not much DM Faction home for "Goodly folk", but at the same time EFU has kind of a trend of goodly folk.

Proactivity as a good guy is hard. Damn hard. Dare I say one of the hardest things about such a grey world like EFU. Yet people say "It's not just about being big, and bad like Evil. Or having awesome world domination plans, like evil."

But that's the thing IT IS

Good guys can get together and scheme and plot and do business just as much as evil can. Good guys can get together and try to take over the world, just as evil can.

Look at the Canon Harpers. A good example. Sometimes grey but mostly good.

Merchants, Politicans, Businessmen, Soldiers, Guards, and more, all coming together for one solid goal: To stick in the side of Evil like a thumbtack and never let them get an inch. There's some next level shady shit going on, certainly, but that's why they're CG not LG.

I bet you, 100,000$ a group like that could flourish on EFU, As a PC faction even, without any DM support.

Good guys can lie, cheat, steal, fight, plot, scheme, and more just like the bad guys can. They just do it for different reasons.

The trouble is a lot of times on EFU, Protactive is judged as a belt-notch of how many PCs you kill in a duel, or in wide scale, interconflicting PVP. That will always benefit evil. PCs just have to shift the way they look at good.

Example: Ironmantle. Let's be frank. Dude was a Tyrant. A law loving, LG, Tyrant. Like most paladins are. He got into politics. He got into raising an army. He got into enforcing laws. He got into busting heads of those who didn't follow those laws.

QuoteUntil Good isn't seen as "CRUSHING EVIL", it's not gonna work. And frankly most "CRUSH GOOD GUY" is a pretty weak and often very swiftly killed PC Concept for an evil PC.

Anything Genteel Jim did, a good guy could have done. Just with less murder, throwing beatdowns and more around the docks with a Gang of tough good guys. Anything Bartemis did, a Lawful Goodly cleric could have done by getting into the streets and amassing followers and spreading the message of good and smiting and crushing the evil. Anything Yekal, Makumbo, Ogreribbit, The Rot Cultists, The various evil Lycanthropes, Anything Drayden, anything any one of any of the "Big Evil PCs" did.

A good guy could have done. It would have been done differently of course. But they could have done it.

Good in DnD is not always sunshine and butterflies and carebears. Good in DND, and particularly in EFU is "I can do everything you can, but I do not need to do it your way."

The Paladin who spares a criminal he beats down, who swears an oath to try and redeem himself. He keeps a list of those who have made these oaths. He makes regular trips around to check that these oaths are being upkept, and have a faction of spies and informans and otherwise who keep him appraised of the status of these oaths.

Could do the exact same thing that Iman is doing right now that has the server so massively shaken up. Without murder.

It's just how you look at the server, how you are proactive, and how you want to implement your "Goodness".

By the way, i agree also that evil should be more rewarding, it's kind of the same way in real life. It's kind of like an inevitable tide, and i like that about this server.

I agree with all that has been said.  Good needs to be proactive instead of reactive.  This tends to be the major downfall of most "good" concepts.

Having played a spying, manipulative, scheming good guy, I can say it is great fun, but again, you get very very little support.  Why.. because it's not the "BIG" moves that most see.  It's not the larger than life big bad threatening to slay all that do not bow down to (enter name of god here).

But, again we get away from the topic.  Yes, PC factions have come and most noticeably gone that were 'good' in base.  But, again this is the problem with PC factions.  Kill the leader and it just sort of falls apart.  Now this is not exclusive to just good.. we see it happen with most player factions.

I would not say that all of the factions are made for evil, Neutral is by far I would guess the most common.  But, if we look at the history of those factions, the Sons, Stygains, and even the Conclave, I would bet most of us would walk away saying "evil" or neutral at best.

The Black Pin's had an excellent concept. A faction to fight against the current Leaders of Ymph and Old Port.  They were not the 'in your face' good guys, as it was not what they were meant to be.  They pulled strings, worked quietly to see evil underminded.  At least that was the concept, sadly it never got to see it's true potential.

Personally I would love to see a DM decided to bring something like this about.  Something that those of good can rally around without having to fight upstream in your own faction.  Something that could give the people something to rally around on occasion and fight for and with.

It's worth noting that Order Law as it stands was written by Ironmantle, a LG Paladin. RWG also raises valid points; there is plenty of room to be Good on the server, people very rarely seem to be able to organise or plot as well as evil does.

I think there's a bit of a misconception with regards to the Order. The fact is, the faction has been proactive rather than reactive. This is what LN-LG aggression can look like when the law is on its side, especially considering this is a fantasy setting with medieval roots (EfUA adheres to a darker version of this than is canon FR as well). As a result it appears extreme or even "evil" to our much more liberal perception of things.

I think that there should be a secret good faction that takes people who are doing grand acts, getting things done, and banding them together.
The faction would be good only could house outlawed good pcs and give them all the power to achieve goodness for the isle as well as person goals.

The trouble with "Secret" is it tends to preface "Slow", "Gradual", and other words like that. PCs who look for Good to step up want to see some public, championic workings. Yes it puts a bigger target on your back but it it also gets the heart lifted.

If another DM Faction of good guys came around I imagine it would be more public.

I see what you mean RwG. I had planned to try and make a Paladin of Siamorphe next. I remember you talking about shadey good aligned factions but the hardest part about paladins is they only fit with Crusader Player faction as they usually wouldn't agree with Order, Sons would call them pussies, Stygians are too evil and Paladins have to work with evil constantly with little support.
This is one of the things that has been discussed on this thread.

Quote from: Capricious;222142I think there's a bit of a misconception with regards to the Order. The fact is, the faction has been proactive rather than reactive. This is what LN-LG aggression can look like when the law is on its side, especially considering this is a fantasy setting with medieval roots (EfUA adheres to a darker version of this than is canon FR as well). As a result it appears extreme or even "evil" to our much more liberal perception of things.

 
Yes, the order is 'good', but it is fanatical.  The only that will truly be accepted are those that believe what the others believe. Now that is not a bad thing.  But, it is not something that Joe Blow the Tymorian C/G bard would fit in with.  Or the L/N Lathanderite, or any number of others.  It is a distinct flavor for certain types of players.
 
Again I don't think this thread was meant to bash or down play the existing factions.  It was simply stating that there is a lack of 'good' factions.  Or factions that 'good' would not feel like they are fighting an uphill battle 24/7 in their own 'home', or that they have to follow a certain diety/ belief system.  
 
One that is open to a wide range of concepts, where a predominately good character could find a home and feel like they have some back-up.

Quote from: BrittanyPanthasGeneral faction alignment: TN(With Lawful Tendencies).

However, nearly every alignment of a PC can find a place in the Order, with the right concept.

The Order is not good, it is TN, with lawful tendencies. Not even good tendencies. Truthfully, I find that the Order balances good and evil very well, and comes to fit quite well into their TN faction alignment (they work to stop the end of the world... but they also subject people to horrible, painful deaths and generally have a lack of respect for those who don't worship their gods).

Stop determining what alignment a faction is according to a tendency that was determined before the faction had even had PCs to define it.

I think it's pretty stupid that all the players in here who don't play in the Order are the ones having a hard head while there's a whole bunch of players in here who were or are in the faction, who all say that the faction's outlook is LG with heavy neutral tendencies.


If you're so eager to define the Order as a bunch of semi-evil, ruthless murderers, by all means, make such a PC and see if it'll roll.



The Order is a secretive and closed faction as far as their beliefs and justifications are concerned. Even when you're in it can be difficult to grasp. Please don't judge based on a few appearances.

I think the fundamental issues have been said.
 
1. Good is just less popular.
2. Good PC's aren't as organized, are less PVP centric, and less apt to plot.
3. Good PC's need to stop making the smiting of Evil their goal.
 
The fact of the matter is, Evil here can tolerate good. Good by it's nature cannot tolerate evil unless it has a very enlightened approach.
 
In before everyone says "but a paladin would..." cause i'm playing mine how I please.

Every time a paladin is killed a unicorn cries.

The factions were designed from the outset not be be inherently tied to any alignment. Nobody is interested in one-dimensional boring 'LG' or 'CE' factions. Rather than alignment, the factions are based on ideologies and philosophies, and it left up to the players how they will pursue such things, whether as a Good PC or Evil PC, Lawful PC or Chaotic PC.

Caddies has it.

Put it short as I can. The reason factions with a good philosophy are rare can greatly be attributed to the basic rule of video games. RvR or risk verses reward though in this case we can use a sub rule Cost vs reward. Evil or neutral factions resort to actions of their alignment to gain wealth/fame and same goes for good aligned. While an evil character may rob people and in return gain gold/infamy a good aligned faction will instead donate gold to the hungry. In both cases the desired result is the same, though only one achieves such goal resulting in a good feeling for the player of the evil character. As for the good character they find themselves often burdened with restrictions or expectations of others and continue to stretch their resources in hopes of reaching that oft thought of result but in the good aligned factions I have been part of or seen, none have ever actually gained more then a nod of the head. The order as a faction has no demands placed on it by a greater power while on the other hand the Pallid Masks dissolved because burdens were placed on them by means of the duke/armada at a time their player count was low and such was unlikely to occur. They had been fighting the risers for months before they disbanded and months before I even got involved and I never saw them benefit, none of them received recognition for their work, their attempts to grow often never resulted in anything, and yet more expectations were placed on them.

This is an issue with the current setting. It is extremely difficult for a good aligned faction to flourish in a situation where they are bound by the overseeing presence of a heavily neutral force.

Pvp has somewhat to do with a groups longevity when you speak of a good or evil aligned group. In the good aligned ones I've been part of pvp was extremely rare compared to say the sons and generally only as a reaction to another faction's previous actions. On the other hand  it seems often that evil factions are PvP heavy, openly getting involved in or starting  conflict with the odd exception. Now if you took a faction that was evil, and then took away pvp I think you may have some of the same problems as a good aligned faction because without pvp its very hard to profit and gain fame/infamy.

This isn't to say I am for or against pvp heavy factions but that there's a definite reason ones that are seem to last.

The Sons of Sabuth make an excellent "Good" faction. I once asked Caddies if a CG Fighter of lathander would fit. He said perfectly.

I've -played- an NG bard in the Sons of Sabuth and conflicted with the largely evil presence in the Sons. I rocked out.

The Order is amazing for the sheer fact it can rock out and burn a LG paladin of Lathander and still think they are good guys. I love them for it and if you don't, go kiss a Donkey's arse.

We don't need another DM faction, people need to start creating egocentric pathological lying and backstabbing good guys and get dirty with evil.

I say, BRING IT

Lets keep this on topic and non confrontational.

Yes, good aligned characters can flourish in non good factions, though to be honest I think we as players tend to bend the rules on alignments quite a bit. I mean just look at their last 3 people to lead the sons? You have Red, Jim, Monsoon was also sort of the head for a while and neither of the three could be described as anything but evil I mean murderer, murderer, drug dealer. And the leaders before them have tended to lean to evil. Blowing up libraries, murdering people, drug dealing and so forth. And yet most describe it as intended to be sort of a neutral peacekeeping force in the docks, even though most of the conflict in the docks is generally linked to the Sons as a cause. After all if the head of a faction is evil it often occurs characters that were created for the faction are made with an alignment suited to the head of the faction at the time .That's why the sons have tended to lean to evil because the rare good aligned character ends up dead because having gotten involved with the sons outside factions see him as evil as well and likely will kill him just as the would any evil aligned murdering son

You're basing much of what you see about factions from the fact that players play mostly evil in factions. A good guy can be in the Stygian Armada. It won't be easy, but it can happen.

Edit: A faction devoted entirely to good is a bad thing. That was the Pallid Mask. Frankly, it was fairly boring as a faction, and all the goals required to be in it could of been done independently. You joined for a snazzy suit of armor and a sweet weapon.

Black Steel Pin Assassins should return ASAP IMHO.

Also there seems to be some kind of misconception that misguided good or misguided evil is always a good thing. This isn't necessarilly true. Sometimes I think it's more fun for a character to realize what they're doing -is- wrong but ultimately good for the big picture. Ignoring some blatant evil you committed because you think it's right is just too out there sometimes. Be realistic about some things.

Glad I read the thread through fully, because Caddies summed up what I was about to write, he just did it better and with less words.
 
Caddies does indeed have it.

Being good has always been harder than being evil. Just makes people who actually manage to pull off good all the more impressive.

Factions are neutral. They have no alignment. Paladins aren't exactly suited to factions in efu or FR in general. They are usually members of paladin orders or churchs, which you could count as factions I suppose, but other than that they aren't big on them.

On the other hand, lawful good characters fit perfectly into a good chunk of them.

FYI Kanrath, Genteel Jim was not a Son of Sabuth and in fact regularly clashed with their Good and Neutral members.

"everything must have an identifiable alignment!!"

Really at this point any alignment can fit in any faction. In the underdark factions were may more restrictive. The only faction that was the exception was the watch. Good people can fit into virtually any faction even the armada. Having been in both I can see no reason a good guy couldn't fit in any of them. The factions are very neutral. The armada being more lawful while the sons being more chaotic.

I see the battle between the docks and dominion as law vs chaos it clearly isn't good versus evil. The problem is that oocly a lot of people see it as a evil dominion against a good docks. The dominion being the home of necromancers, slavers. It is also the home of paladin,s holymen and your everyday laborers and freelance merchants and adventurers. As well as loyalists who view the docks as a place of terrorists who are a threat to order and stability

The docks are a haven of drug pushers, cutthroats and all manner of filth while at the same time charity workers, holymen, and freedom fighters who view the dominion as an extension of the tyranny of old port. As well as your merchants and laborers just trying to get by.

Any alignment fits with the docks and dominion and anyone who hasn't discovered this by now is missing the point of the docks and dominion and I feel sorry for you.

Quote from: Caddies;222717FYI Kanrath, Genteel Jim was not a Son of Sabuth and in fact regularly clashed with their Good and Neutral members.

Even though they didn't really have any good members at the time.

Porkolt, Active Son of Sabuth.

lol

Caddies made a point on how factions are designed not to be bound to a specific alignment at the start, the problem is that only works for so long, sure a faction may start out as just sort of looking for chaotic characters in general but if 75% of those chaotic characters lean evil then over time the faction itself will stop being looked at as chaotic and take on the alignment of CE, this is why groups like the sons perhaps at the beginning were great for diversity but not you cannot honestly expect good aligned characters to look at the sons as a valid faction to join now because doing so would be simply ignoring their long history of Chaotic evil actions in the name of the faction. Same goes say for the order, with the actions done by Snow people are starting to look at it less and less as LN and more CN or LE, which in time if said actions continue the alignment view may become permanent.

This is why this post was made is because many factions currently with NPC support started off as neutral or chaotic and slowly drifted into more polar alignments. But the last faction to be created leaning to good was the pallid masks and the current groups have slowly changed to where most good aligned characters are openly hostile to them in some way. This is because their actions have been opposite of the actions a CG, NG, or Lg character would have taken in their position.

It is well known the CIA engaged in torture does that keep good or non evil people from joining?


Also the LAPD beat a guy while he was down and were engaged in numerous corruption scandals did that stop non dirty cops from joining? It would make sense for non evil people wishing to reform and improve a factions reputation to join it.

If you are just concerned about having inter faction conflict then obviously DM factions aren't for you and I feel really sad for you. Factions are diverse and any alignment can rock out with a few exceptions.

^ What he said.

The factions themselves definitely do not have alignments, but they can certainly be pushed towards one by PC members or be seen as 'evil', 'neutral' or 'good' due to PC actions. Although, there is a reason why the factions rarely lean towards the good aligned spectrum these days, and that is in my opinion because there is usually a lack of real and smart good PCs in them pushing for their beliefs. In fact, I will go as far as to say that most good PCs aren't even good aligned, but are simply just 'nice', nice to the point of stupidity, where at times they even end up protecting people, monsters or deeds that shouldn't be protected. Or where their 'goodness' is only shown to 'friends'. Some of these folks should actually be neutral aligned.

Do note though that I am not talking about specific characters or situations, merely what I have noticed in my time as both a player and a DM.

At the end of the day... if you want to have a more 'good' aligned situation IG, fight for it. Push for it. Be smart about it. Be active. But of course, never forget to play your characters first before your alignment.

It gives them ready goals, allies and enemies.  The Kingsman Inn's a minor faction that is suitable for Good PCs, I should know, I was in it with a CG Cleric. With no PCs in the Wastrel either, I don't see what'd stop a Good PC getting in there and using it as Docks Hero Central behind the scenes. I think it's help if the alignment recommendation was pointed out by a DM as just that, and maybe downgrading non-good for Wastrel and Stygian to "suggested alignment" to make it clear it's just harder to pull off, not nigh impossible.

A DM faction gives attention and prestige to a character, that leads to players paying more attention. PC factions need to get known and do stuff, and you can't have them work as a one-man-band. Prominent Evil factions have been quick to shore up the fact that everyone's gonna hate them for being Necromancers/Cultists/Team Scumbag by trumpeting their achievements. You could do a similar trick by accoplishing stuff and pointing out loudly that You Get More Done By Being Righteous.

Quote from: 9lives;222751Porkolt, Active Son of Sabuth.

Oh yeah.

Eraamion and Wern basically have it.

De Olid made the Stygians look like dicks, criminals, and evil while Helder made it seem like the law of town

Dangerous Dan has it.

Quote from: Eraamion;222785My two cents:

1. I don't feel the server needs any more "good"-aligned factions at the moment. It would diminish the flavor it has. No factions currently prevent good-aligned characters from joining. During the time I've played, I haven't got the impression of the setting being inherently "evil". It is harsh, demanding, grey and complex, but neither good nor evil. This is as it should stay.

2. The problem is not the lack of anchor factions for good-aligned PCs. The problem as I see it are players who find it difficult come in terms with moral ambiguity of decisions and their consequences and seek to suppress this by reinforcing their identity as "good" by being part of "good" DM faction. This request to have a good-aligned DM faction has nothing to do with the server per se (and its supposed imbalances) and everything with human psychology.

You can see this in the outcry surrounding the paladin's death and the alleged "evil" of the Numinous Order, which IMHO is the sole underlying reason for this thread. The label of "paladin" was supposed to give the group authority and monopoly on righteousness (and OOC feel of security of being on the right side) but ended up itself in righteous flames, following judgment based on a (lawful-good, paladin-made) code of laws. This obviously rattles. But much like actions can corrupt a paladin and make him criminal, they can likewise corrupt a faction and make it criminal - hence, making a faction to accommodate this kind of concepts only to appease the psychological need for normative clarity would not solve this problem. I can vividly picture the subsequent threads: "Help, my good faction has become evil, they are punishing me for my mistakes, villainies, and breaking of oaths!"

I know there's been alot of accusations about this being based around a current event, and while it did reason into the reason for posting this, that's not true, though alot of people i'm sure could argue whether the Order should be considered evil or not, which isnt the subject of this thread.

I'll just say that the character whom i currently play is (i know, cats out of the bag) not good aligned, and that i honestly just like playing with good people. I prefer it, and what alot of people see as tending to be 'one dimensional' about Good concepts, i feel kind of about the ambiguous evil or lawful concepts. We are all obviously allowed to differ in opinions.

I'd just say, that such a degree of moral ambiguity, makes it kind of boring, in a similar way if we were all playing in Good vs Evil factions.

I know this is a big pull to the server, and different strokes for different folks.

I'd like to see a "traditional" good aligned faction still, where people can run to for guidance and support.

I think it would broaden enjoyability, and player interactions in this game, in this case and time, rather than narrow them.

Also, it would make things more 'fair' for good aligned characters who often have nowhere decent to run after being wanted by the Stygians, dominion faction, etc.

Docks Church faction, i'm succintly suggesting, now that peoples insights have been rounded throughout this topic.

Don't one of these threads always pop up when the server either has an abundance of good or evil PCs complaining about balancing the opposite?

Anyway make a druid that helps whichever side is loosing for true balance and get epic dm loot and xp if you rockout

Factions nurture individuals and not alignments.

Saying that there is nowhere to run as a good aligned pc seems kind of silly to me. Evil pc's have just as hard a time finding a new evironment from which to work out of and are far more likely to get killed by/with thier new companions than a good aligned pc who found like minded folk elsewhere.

If you feel that too many good aligned people hang out exclusively in the ziggerat then you can do something about it in character. Rally folk away from the duchy's corrupting influence.

I 100% garantuee you that no faction will appear without some kind of in character input for any alignment in any location. if you want a group to exist you need to work towards it.

Make a character to find prominant and powerful people in the realms to bring to ymph and protect the innocent, or protect them yourself and rally npc's to your cause.

The order only exists now because of player effort. It had been all but snuffed out prior.

The thing about efu is that things can be created and destroyed. It's so easy to destroy and so very hard to create. But if you can climb up the mountain and pierce the veil you'll find something epic. Or you can stare up at the sky hoping for something to fall from it into your lap.

You know what, though, it's really kind of ludicrous but the "good" PCs often just stand around and watch the infernalists, the necromancers and the aberrants do their thing, even going so far as to get violently angry with the PCs who actually stand up to oppose these people.

If people say there's a lack of good on this PW, well it's in a large part their own fault for their characters not taking a stand and instead allowing evil to walk all over them. Good DM factions aren't needed, but PCs willing to take a true stand in the name of good are.

Quote from: Capricious;223467You know what, though, it's really kind of ludicrous but the "good" PCs often just stand around and watch the infernalists, the necromancers and the aberrants do their thing, even going so far as to get violently angry with the PCs who actually stand up to oppose these people.

If people say there's a lack of good on this PW, well it's in a large part their own fault for their characters not taking a stand and instead allowing evil to walk all over them. Good DM factions aren't needed, but PCs willing to take a true stand in the name of good are.

I agree it is kind of sad when my evil Pcs have to tell paladins/priests to holy gods to smite evil. With Isengrim Ortega I was trying t o influence Walton and the Bastion to Obtain Lordship by smiting evil.

You guys have to remember that there's a whole massively DM-supported faction that protects these evil-doers from good-smiters- and fighting against them is a good way to NOT become a lord.

Let's not bring in isolated incidents that could be percieved as accusing others of bad roleplay.

Fighting evil does not necessarily mean smiting. There's a lot of ways to oppose them that don't involve simply killing them. But running about with obviously evil PCs and helping them achieve their ends isn't exactly opposing them either. I'm sorry if this is a rather controversial statement, but I have seen this kind of thing on multiple occasions (which I have not, nor will I, list).

Quote from: petey512;223654You guys have to remember that there's a whole massively DM-supported faction that protects these evil-doers from good-smiters- and fighting against them is a good way to NOT become a lord.

Let's not bring in isolated incidents that could be percieved as accusing others of bad roleplay.

Yes lets not point out the fact some supposed good aligned Pcs are basically doing nothing to oppose necromancers animating undead in their faces. Lets not discuss how evil people are being proactive and chasing their goals while good aligned people arent do ing it as much.

As far as accusing others of bad role play I am. If people are offended by my criticism then prove me wrong and make a good aligned PC to rock out. Ironmantle did it Julian Friar did it  if I were to name every single good aligned proactive PC who rocked out wed be here all day.

Evil tends to be easier and even more exciting, good tends to be harder and less exciting. Rocking out as good is possible, but it is harder (or at least, tends to require more patience). That's just been my experience.

Wow did this get like WAAAAAAY off topic.  All that was stated in the OP was that it would be nice to see a place that a Good PC would not feel like they were fighting uphill each step of the way in their own faction.

Now before it starts all over again.

YES, they can join any faction around.
YES, being in a faction does not mean they will "Rock out".
YES, "good" needs to be more proactive than reactive.
YES, the current factions have a "neutral" concept behind them. (Meaning that when they were created they were left somewhat open to any alignment)


All these points have been made.. many times.

Now, with all that said.  

Let's look at what is really out there.

The Son's: Chaotic is what they look for. Good / Evil / Neutral can make a go at it. Since it's inception I can think of only 1 known "good" aligned character in it.

The Stygians : Law is what they look for. More Evil than good in nature.  I can't think of any "good" aligned PC.

The Order: Again Law is what they look for.  Seems most neutral, with some good tossed in.  Main problem with this is the fanatical view they seem to all have.

Conclave : Neutral in all things.  This is the one faction that any and all can fit in.  Though it is limited in who can join.  Mage / Sorcerer then Consort, which can be of any class as long as their ideals work with the Mage / Sorcerer.

Stewards : Neutral in most things.  Again any alignment can fit in.  Though you must be nature focused.

Now I love the Factions we currently have.  It is a good mix of thought and ideals and makes for a lot of potential conflict.  But, that is not to say that with some thought a faction for those of "good" intent could not be added to the mix.

So, that is the end of my .02, I shall let you all have the floor and do my best not to jump in again.

As often as others complain about how "we're not seeing the whole picture", it astounds me those people turn around and say "good pc's your not fighting evil!" because they don't see it.
 
Goods primary problem is amazing grace. It has too much of it.

Topic no longer serves any purpose?