Without turning this into too much of a rant. My character died last night to some real shady mechanics. It happens to the best of us, in fact it also happens to the worst of us and we've come to accept that sometimes you just have to deal. But in this acceptance, I began to ponder, how often do these set backs and karmic kicks to the balls happen compared to good old victories?
It seems to me that I fail far more often then I succeed in this little world of ours. I understand the game is set up to be challanging, but its also supposed to be fun, you know? What happened to the win? Where have the good times gone that make playing the game worthwhile? They are still there, I suppose, but it often feels like I don't have time to get back on the horse before something knocks me off it again. I lose enough in my real life, it just pains me that much more to lose at my fictional one as well. Am I alone in this assesment?
Rewards! Fun! Victory! I'd like to see more of them. Not just for me, but for everyone. Because in the end, its just a game and the joy we feel for it should outweigh the pains.
Just fail less, obviously.
That's how you win.
Quote from: PanamaLane;97028My character died last night to some real shady mechanics.
Wasn't me (http://longislandcalling.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/buttafuoco.jpg)
Just to explain a bit, I ran past a group of nightrisers invisibly. One saw me and attacked. My resulting -auto attack- revealed my location to all his buds. My character would never have done that, you know? But I had to live with it. It moved me from 300 to 7 back down to 5. It was a kick in the balls, right square, and it made me want to quit.
What happened isn't really the point though. I just wanted to voice a feeling of failure. Its a familiar one, more so then success, and that confused me because if I can't even succeed in my dreams and fantasies, then where can I? My life's tough enough, I just want to have fun.
And if i thought I was the only one out there who felt this way, then I wouldn't have mentioned it.
Maybe I've just been lucky, or maybe I've gotten better at online NWN. Probably both, but I've been finding it easier to succeed (and reap the rewards of success) in our new setting than I ever did in the UD. Dreaded mechanics glitches and the Lag Demon still get me from time-to-time, but as Panama said, it happens to all of us.
I will admit, however, that there were several times in the past that I felt the same way as PanamaLane.
When I see veterans die horribly all the time despite playing this game for four years or more, I always wonder why this happens. EFU:A is a story told through the the NWN medium; if you can't string together the simple concepts and do the simple maths behind NWN mechanics, expect to fail. If you're serious about succeeding -because yes, success does often depend on your grasp of the mechanics- then learn the game.
Its not as though its quantan physics, or that the information isn't readily available to you:
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
True, sometimes it would seem one fail more than one succeed. I know there's a lot that I have failed to accomplish and you can bet it sets my enjoyment back a bit, but sometimes it is the small victories that are enjoyable. Sure, you don't get to make that great building/faction that you hoped for, but still you managed to draw interest and someone reacted to your character. Everytime a character of mine is able to draw a reaction from someone, no matter if it's good or bad, I count that as a victory; for I see then that I have made an impact, no matter how insignificant, on the other character. The reactions, the small cheery tells, the interest and the fun I have while playing alongside others; these are all victories that keep me going and make me enjoy this game tremendously.
Success greatly depends on the players around you. Sometimes your success is due to their failures and even your own success is due to their success.
I die horribly like that at least 3 times/week.
While I have considerably adjusted my attitude toward playing over the past year or two, it DOES ultimately make my RP suffer, as I try not to get too invested in any of my characters, knowing they'll be snuffed out in a silly manner any day now.
Before I sit down to play, I always ask myself one question: "Do I care if die within 30 seconds of logging in?" If I say "yes", I don't play.
Quote from: 'Metro_Pack'Wasn't me
(http://www.exposay.com/celebrity-photos/shaggy-2007-world-music-awards-arrivals-9vLAWz.jpg)
Just slap up a "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" banner and declare yourself the winner, Panama! Then you can get back to the drudgery of constant assaults on your hopes and dreams! Simply redefine victory and your good to go! ...on a serious note, what would be winning? I always imagined winning a good death. I ask that question in all seriousness, what would qualify "winning or succeding" in EFUA?
There are many, my friend- Escaping, fulfilling your character's goals, enjoying yourself while playing.
The greatest, though, is neither nebulous nor unattainable. Simply post an angst-ridden goodbye, decrying all and sundry (bonus points for The Man!), in the off-topic forum.
Victories is probably a better word for it.
Listen, my characters have these all the time as well. From being elected, to successfully slaying one enemy to sleep with another. These victories are why I play the game. Dying well is a victory, one of the best in fact. These kinds of occurrences only mature after a long hard fight and that's partly what makes them so great.
But in between to you have to deal with so much bullshit sometimes. It's nobody's fault, mind you, I'm just calling it like it is. Its the random things life throws at you that knocks you back. It hits you more mentally then anything else and will turn even the toughest of men into a little bitch. It exists in the real world, so its presence in Archipelago is also assuredly there.
The difference is where we have to live with it in the real world, we don't -have- to in Archipelago. With a few mouse clicks, we can change this world and make it better, shinier and tastier then the one from whence we came. We could be more rewarded from our experiences here.
I'm not sure how either, maybe its just my own state of mind that needs to change. Mostly I'd just like to hear what you have to say about it.
Being a continual bed-fellow with failure in EFU, I know what you are feeling all too well. But more often than not it is the pain of losing xp due to a small mistake or glitch, rather than a feeling of being defeated.
Victories come in the plots, schemes, and RP of the server, not in the victory of making it past that little party of nightrisers invisible.
At least, that's how I try to play.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRG8NNqqeqE
I suppose some of us have smaller dreams or enjoy small victories and do not consider the losses or failures too much.
Yeah my character died last night due to some snakes. All I had to do to stay alive was down some potions and I would have been fine. I clicked on the potion, attacked once, then twice, so I clicked on the potion again, then attacked two more times then died - still without having touched any potion.
While thinking it quite lame, it bothered me much less than knowing I was standing there in the fugue with DrD, now that is the lamest of lame.
I want in too.
...Death is a bedfellow of mind. I don't mind.
I've died twice with this ubermensch and those deaths are the first since I've started playing that really didn't bother me much at all. They both came from overconfidence against spiced quests. I still love smashing monsters and getting xp but dying like that just makes me laugh now. That's after, oh, 3-4yrs of NWN? Probably something that I definitely know makes a huge difference is that I really enjoy all the non-quest grinding things I have going on.
So I don't know dude, is Von Lubek doing some cool non-quest grinding shit that you're really enjoying right now?
lol! That reminds me, I once died to to Boggs because I was over confident!
I never once won the portal to the surface quest. (And now I never will. T_T) And yet it still was one of my favorites.
EfU is like the movie dawn of the dead. We are all doomed to fail eventually. Even PC's such as Montezzi fail. But all this horrid failure makes the rare victory amazingly liberating.
If death bothers anyone this much, there are three options:
1.) Quit EFU, and take up reading, XBOX 360 games, or other single player games.
2.) Take some time off. At least a week. Go for a walk, or run afterwards.
3.) Beg Wiggyboy for lessons.
YOU THINK YOU HAVE IT BAD?
Picture this : your cleric from the start of efua only needs 500 xp to get to level nine, which no one has ever done yet. Most of the xp from 8th level onward was not quest xp (hence not replaceable in that sense.)
At ninth level, your cleric can cast Raise Dead and force everybody who wants such a favor (which will be many) to worship her god. Lots of potential, lots of possibility. Heck your cleric's faith might become dominant just because of this.
So you're looking forward to that and go along with an orcs part 2 quest. It goes like clockwork because for the most part, you know what you're doing mechanically and so does your team.
Near the end of the quest a stealthy foe pops out and attacks you and gets your hp pretty low with a few hits. Well, thats fine you drink an inviz and go to move away from the danger. It gets in a last nasty hit as you do this, but you still should be allright.
And at that moment what happens?
A FREAKING MAGIC MISSILE COMES OUT OF NOWHERE FROM AN ENEMY ACROSS THE MAP SO FAR AWAY YOU NEVER FREAKIN SAW IT AND KILLS YOU WHILE YOU'RE INVISIBLE. Forever destroying any possibility of ever casting raise dead in efua, ever. Just that that, in one improbable, lame, cheap shot. Gone.
No matter what happened to you, it just can't compare. Read my sorry tale above and feel better about yourself.
Well, you probably wouldn't have been able to cast raise dead anyway. So don't feel too bad.
You would kinda need a Diamond...
Actually, for what it's worth, I think the nightrisers are a bit naughty, mechanically. If you feel that there's been silliness afoot with the AI send a shout to the DM's and if we're online we'll help you. (Or I will at least.)
Thanks to the DM's who trolled this thread, keeping things in perspective in their own special way. I think the carebears link was my favorite. I hate you metro.
Winston Martin, I think Von Lubek is doing a lot to keep me excited and moving forward. Qusting, however, is the least of them. He rarely gets within 100 feet of combat, so its kind of boring actually.
Anyway, this thread kind of got off track. The death wasn't really the point. I know that it happens, I've been there many, many times. Everything is cool. I was just thinking it could be cooler if all of our characters were rewarded a bit more across the map and made to feel special, so that when set backs happen we have experiences to fall back on outside of the xp rat race. Now I'll retire to my hole.
I'm sorry, Panama, i'm not sure i understand your thread.
Is it just you're not havinng fun on EfUA?
Is it you're concerned about the getting wacked is more frequent that wining?
Am i far off?
Just curious.
I'm having fun, for certain. And this isn't a EFU:A vs EFU thing either.
Mostly its just a rant about why we play. We play to win, not to lose. So maybe its about time we started winning more then losing?
I guess my point was that I could be having more fun. That maybe the game should be a little easier. Maybe we should get more of what we want and fewer obstacles placed between us and what we want. To quote the rolling stones, in the real world you can't always get what you want.
But in nwn, we actually could.
So why don't we?
I'm a little unclear about what you actually want as well, Panama. It's a nice idea to want all our characters to be more rewarded, but how does this work in practice? What sort of rewards are we talking about, and how are they give, when are they given, how are the given and who are they given to?
These are all things the DM's would need to consider, as well as other factors like players that play in dead times and never or rarely see a DM (and there are plenty of us).
I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade, but I think trying to do stuff like this (or like I think I understand you're asking for) will just be extra work for the few active DM's we do have and be unmanageable or unfair in practice to implement.
lol ure character died same way as Illario Dentra. noob.
Ommadawn, you're too practical. I honestly don't expect anything to come out of this rant. It's really just a mindset I tried (and failed apparently) to express.
Quote from: "Garem"noob.
I just had to get that cheap shot in and emphasize the point. Sarcastically, of course, but emphasizing it all the same.
I know what you're saying, Panama. I feel that EfU:A is a lot harder than EfU. Invis is less effective, there's far more poison and dispelling, and generally the mobs hit much harder. My deaths on EfU usually occurred because I held back in some way. Where as in EfU:A, it's fairly common that you can't survive, even if you take all precautions, plan ahead of time, and play well.
Maybe I'm part of the minority, in this mindset. I tend to gravitate towards frontliners, and I've also been on a lot of DM quests -- where the challenge can be expected.
In some ways, I really like the bump in the difficulty level. It makes success more valuable. But in others, it makes it much harder for less optimized builds to work.
Either way, I think we can expect the setting to get a bit easier in time. There'll be more bug fixes; we'll get more accustomed to the clunky collision size of our characters; more gold, and potions, and equipment will find its way into the player market; and there's already been a number of balance changes (e.g., Sewer Goblins and Scalemount). And hopefully, the general player-base will become accustomed to the difficulty of the new setting.
So I think we can expect, in some ways, for the setting to become naturally easier in time. Though, regardless, I hope the DMs will continue to remain open to balance suggestions.
If I'm reading you right Panama ...
This isn't really about having the perfect optimized build (whatever that is, I sure as hell have never figured it out), or getting the uber-loot, or power-questing to umpteenth level ... It's about trying to feel like you're doing something without having to overcome every obstacle in the game to do it; including mechanics, glitches, bugs, lag, etc.
I've hit that same wall myself at times. Where you feel like no matter what you try, what level you are, how many goodies you may/maynot have ... you're still going to end up just as dead, and just as frustrated because you haven't been able to do whatever thing it was you were trying to do. There have been times when I could've sworn this was a lesson in dealing with seemingly insurmountable frustration. Which, when you hit that spot kinda feeds on itself, because this is a game. It's supposed to be an immersive fantasy where for a bit you can forget about RL. So when you have to face the same or worse here, it takes something away from it.
Honestly, the thing I've found that helps when I hit that wall is two things ...
Even if it's for a few hours, a few minutes, a day, whatever ... step back and take a deep breath. Yeah, I know that sounds a little trite, but really it does help.
The second is to re-align my goals a bit. Sometimes that means instead of looking at the BIG picture of what I want, look at just the next step (even if it's just a baby step of finishing "x" quest, or talking to "x" PC). Sometimes it means changing the way I look at the game or my PC. Sometimes it's a combination of those things. It can be a variety of things.
I don't know if that will work for you or not. But I think I hear what you're saying. It can be a frustrating and discouraging spot to be in.
I think bob made some good points. The new collision behaviors brought by the patch are absolutely horrendous, you can nudge someone and suddenly they're on a trap 10 feet away that noone was even facing toward. It's just awful and I wish it could get disabled, a blind gorilla slapping a keyboard could come up with a better system.
The Underdark seemed easier because there were more quests to choose from and most people went with the easier ones, which already happens to some extent in efua.
One thing that certainly has gotten more ruthless is certain AI behaviors. Since the patch, monsters have consistently continued to attack pcs that are fallen and bleeding, even to the extent of ignoring threats that are damaging them. This used to be the exception, now its the norm, and it alone contributes hugely to character deaths.
Here is something to consider outside of the death issue. If my character wants to look really badass, I'll need to find dye for robes (since they can't be made by the seamstress). First off, you need to go about figuring out which colors you want, and where to get them, etc. Not easy! Then I have to quest a bunch to be able to afford the dyes at 100gp or so a piece. I have to apply them blindly and hope that they match the scheme I was looking for, which they almost do but not quite. Then you fiddle with this process over weeks to get it just right. When you've finally got it, the dyes are perfect, you die to PvP the next day. Thus begins a whole new process of going back to work for clothes.
Now, if I wanted to buy a suit in nyc I'd go through a similar process, earning the money, taking measurements and so forth. But that's real life. In nwn, can't we just have the stupid dyes we want? Why must we -work- for them? Its not even magical, its just a robe.
Sometimes I'm surprised I don't have to pay student loans in EFU.
QuoteSometimes I'm surprised I don't have to pay student loans in EFU.
Should totally suggest that!
Student loans, then you go to wizard/fighter/rogue/cleric classes in the Zig. You get XP. Then you have a 10th level graduate PC. But you gotta pay 90% of your quest earnings and findings back to the school. Until you die.
I've found that the server is pretty tough, especially for the unprepared. I've finally got a rhythm and flow going for my main and things have toned down a bit in terms of random violence ending her...
But there's still trouble spots... I don't know, I think it's how it should be... for now.
Ugh this thread. So much emo waffling.
What's with the attitude? Are we not cool enough Caddies? Your condescension is poison.
Thread just went epic.
I am glad there is a responsible dm to oversee it.
I sense epicly locked shortly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IiLZ0dvDWU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFjKFDvyJ80