http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52987
It started with this bug report. A tl;dr Wizards took (Greater) Spell Focus: Divinition as an easy way to get improved Divinition spells. Now the DMs have made it so that only if Wizards take Spell School: Divinition, barring them from using Illusion, they get these benefits.
And that's a good chance, I'm not arguing that.
Except that it completely shafts over Sorcerers. Playing a Sorcerer with GSF: Divinition, not even having the Feats to take another Spell Focus, I would like to draw the attention to the fact that we gain zero benefits from Divinition now. Or is it only Clairvoyance/ Audience? Well as it is I'm not sure but I'd still like to raise this issue.
Could something be done to allow this for Sorcerers, or if it can't be done could DMs please take pity on Sorcerers who do specialise in Divinition?
And yes this thread if entirely self-motivated.
Double duration see invis worked for my bard.
Didn't get to check personally, but I'm pretty sure akke got the bonus duration to clairaudience, just not the dr on a wizard of his
tl;dr give Sorcerers with GSF: Divinition 5/+1 on their CC like specialised Wizards get.
5/+1 on Clairaudience/Clairvoyance for sorcs would be cool, but from the way this is being worded wizards sacrafice all illusion spells, which of course include the ever handy invisibility, in order to gain that little bit of DR. Maybe it would be more appropriate to suggest that it is simply given to -both- classes with a greater spell focus feat rather than to ask for sorcerers to get it with none of the sacrifice that a wizard must put forth, making this little specific perk spell focus based rather than school specialization based.
Not that there is anything wrong with giving a little benefit for completely throwing away a very useful school of magic. Just putting the cost/reward for both classes into perspective. Wizards lose a whole lot for it, and a sorcerer would lose nothing.
Quote from: Coldburn;232977tl;dr give Sorcerers with GSF: Divinition 5/+1 on their CC like specialised Wizards get.
5/+1 is pretty worthless, even extended at level 9 it doesn't last as long as blur, which sorcerers easily have access. Why not just be happy with the huge boost to duration on the two ultimate pvp spells vs people without those feats... You have access to improved invisibility after all.
Quote from: xXCrystal_Rose;2329905/+1 on Clairaudience/Clairvoyance for sorcs would be cool, but from the way this is being worded wizards sacrafice all illusion spells, which of course include the ever handy invisibility, in order to gain that little bit of DR. Maybe it would be more appropriate to suggest that it is simply given to -both- classes with a greater spell focus feat rather than to ask for sorcerers to get it with none of the sacrifice that a wizard must put forth, making this little specific perk spell focus based rather than school specialization based.
Not that there is anything wrong with giving a little benefit for completely throwing away a very useful school of magic. Just putting the cost/reward for both classes into perspective. Wizards lose a whole lot for it, and a sorcerer would lose nothing.
Big deal. Just pop an invis vial as a wizard.
Not to mention that eventhough you loose out a whole school as a wizard, you still get access to HUNDREDS of spells, where as a L9 Divination Sorc will have the following:
Level 1: 5 spells
Level 2: 4 spells
Level 3: 3 spells
Level 4: 2 spells.
Lol wat?
Level 4 = scrying + feeblemind
Level 3 = claivoyance + @ + @
Level 2 = see invis + @ + @ +@
etc.
You see the pattern? You speak of wizards being LIMITED by loosing illusion.
And yes -> I agree with the OP. GSF'd sorcs should get all the bonuses that Specialist wizards get.
Quote from: SmashingGiants;232994Big deal. Just pop an invis vial as a wizard.
Not to mention that eventhough you loose out a whole school as a wizard, you still get access to HUNDREDS of spells, where as a L9 Divination Sorc will have the following:
Level 1: 5 spells
Level 2: 4 spells
Level 3: 3 spells
Level 4: 2 spells.
Lol wat?
Level 4 = scrying + feeblemind
Level 3 = claivoyance + @ + @
Level 2 = see invis + @ + @ +@
etc.
You see the pattern? You speak of wizards being LIMITED by loosing illusion.
And yes -> I agree with the OP. GSF'd sorcs should get all the bonuses that Specialist wizards get.
It's not about quantity, but quality of the spells available. There is not a single spell with more utility than improved invisibility in the game for example.
Also sorcerers get four level three spells by the time they have two level four spells. They also don't have to prepare spells thus being a diviner sorcerer with the right spell slot choices not only makes you the ultimate ganker, but virtually ungankable.
Naga, your arguments are about how the class is.
I simply ask that if I invest 2 feats into a Spell Focus I would like to get the exact same thing the other class gets.
I love how you all agree that the "base" level to work arround with a character is level 9. Wich i might add, probably more than one of us has NEVER reached.
Quote from: Coldburn;233002Naga, your arguments are about how the class is.
I simply ask that if I invest 2 feats into a Spell Focus I would like to get the exact same thing the other class gets.
So you want to lose all access to illusion spells for 5/1+ dr for X rounds on a single spell? <_<
In all seriounsess Naga, sorcerers aren't very strong, hence why they got all the good loot easily avilable, but divination sorcerers are even worse, because SF: Divination does next to nothing compared to what SF: Evocation/illusion/enchantment/necromancy would do, for example, or simply ANY other feat.
That buff isn't OP at all. And would help.
This is all absolutely true, but GSF does the exact same thing for both wizards and sorcerers remember. The topic is the 5/+1 DR.
QuoteNow the DMs have made it so that only if Wizards take Spell School: Divinition, barring them from using Illusion, they get these benefits.
QuoteDidn't get to check personally, but I'm pretty sure akke got the bonus duration to clairaudience, just not the dr on a wizard of his
Showing an example of spell focus without school specialization above, unless I am totally misunderstanding this.
QuoteMaybe it would be more appropriate to suggest that it is simply given to -both- classes with a greater spell focus feat...making this little specific perk spell focus based rather than school specialization based.
There isn't really much else that can be said on this topic. All points have already been outlined. The DM team will manage it how they see appropriate, and although this is much cleaner than most suggestion threads, everything that can be said has been said already so just sit back and wait.
Bump. Please give GSF Divinition Sorcerers the 5/+1 on C/C as well.
Why would they need the DR? They still got access to Ghostly Visage if they want to.
I agree that they should get all the other boni though.
QuoteWhy would they need the DR? They still got access to Ghostly Visage if they want to.
I was considering this, too.
With access to Ghostly Visage, there really is no need for sorcerers to have access to even more DR. I imagine if the two stacked it would be a fairly overpowered combination at the best of times.
First of all, you can't stack DR.
Second of all, limited spell selection for Sorcerers.
Third of all, it isn't fair you should invest 2 feats and don't get what Wizards get.
I feel extremely cheated on a very gimpy character already.
QuoteFirst of all, you can't stack DR.
Second of all, limited spell selection for Sorcerers.
Third of all, it isn't fair you should invest 2 feats and don't get what Wizards get.
Well, if you can't stack DR then there doesn't seem to be any real reason not to implement the changes for sorcerers, especially with their already limited spell selection.
Divination really is a difficult spell school to deal with in regard to Sorcerers, and I don't envy your position playing one. I suppose it is a case of flavour versus mechanics though.
You could potentially wind up with a balance problem comes if people take additional spell school focuses. I don't think you can only make it work with sorcerers, which means wizards would also be able to buff up their spells over multiple spell schools without having to focus on a single school. Unfortunately I don't know if there's a way around this, I could be mistaken.
On another note, C&C's extended duration has been cut from what's written on the forums. Unfortunately, the spell is too short to be effective to grant DR anymore, even with the divination feats. Ghostly Visage is a far superior option.
I hate to say this since it's kind of the stock answer, and I certainly sympathize with your dilemma. It seems to me the only real way to compensate is through DMs taking note of your roleplay and rewarding with something that compensates for the sorcerer's weakness in this regard.
Quote from: Coldburn;233549First of all, you can't stack DR.
Second of all, limited spell selection for Sorcerers.
Third of all, it isn't fair you should invest 2 feats and don't get what Wizards get.
I feel extremely cheated on a very gimpy character already.
Argument #1: Non sequitur
Argument #2: So what? You knew you were getting into that when you chose to play a sorcerer.
Argument #3: You're not investing as much as wizards are. Wizards also choose specialization in divination, which means they no longer have access to the numerous highly useful spells of the illusion school.
It looks to me as though you were making a feat choice which on the surface looks like gimping for flavor, but which you didn't really expect it to be (getting basically an extra learned spell as sorc for two feats - it's not as though there are a whole lot of vital feats you had to pass up for that).
Now that it turns out that you really are gimped because you made a stupid mistake (because spell school specialization has been a factor from the very start, and for completely valid reasons), you're pissed and want the game to be changed because you don't know your mechanics.
If this is such a big issue, maybe you should ask a DM for a character rebuild instead of making mechanics suggestions for no other reasons than to patch up your own botched build.
armchairs
My advice: Use Ghostly Visage. As I am currently playing a diviner wizard I agree with Cap 100%. C/C lasts like a fraction of the time Ghostly Visage does as it is a round/level spell instead of turn/level, even with the extensions.
Also missing out on a 3rd circle spell just for a few rounds of survival is fairly harsh. I'd much rather have haste to throw around, or some fireballs, but it fits the RP to have the spell.
Hell. Extended Ghostly Visage would still be third circle and like 1500% more useful. If it is an issue of Mechanics you feel slighted on don't- The change is a flavor one more than a utility one.
I am assuming sorcerers who specialize in Divination would feel that taking any illusion based spells would cripple their concept in the eyes watching.
Let them have it, if they invest two feats in it. They don't get the bonus spells wizards do get.
On the note of that last sentence, let's not forget... a wizard's loss of a school is already compensated by the advantage of getting another spell per level, a significant reward for a caster.
I think it's fair to say the motivation for the changes should not be purely because of a wizard's "loss" in specializing, since this already has a hefty payout of another kind. However, if the reason behind the changes is opportunity cost in using a weaker school over a stronger...
Then I don't see how you can argue that someone other than a wizard who specializes by investing in Spell Focus of a "weaker" school should not benefit, by the same logic.
In other words, the spell focus feat changes should address the disparity between schools, and the changes made should be accessible by anyone who takes spell focuses of a "weak" school.
If, of course, you are going to argue that no school is really weaker than the other, then the entire reason for the spell focus changes flies out the window. Why compensate wizards for getting a free spell per level?
Since the DMs probably have their own take on this already, having implented it with Wizards and kept out Sorcerers, there really isn't any need for further discussion. They a. forgot about sorcerers or b. decided internally to keep sorcerers out.
So let's focus our rage elsewhere and let the DMs decide amongst themselves whether this is worth the time and effort to modify (if it's an oversight) or if its kept secluded.
The various adjustments were made intended as flavor for spell school specialization Wizards. I wouldn't particularly mind it being implemented for sorcerers personally. But as you guys must not have noticed, Johannes is gone and so consequently it is incredibly unlikely any changes will be made to this system until further notice. It's also just very low priority.
The tendency for these lengthy back and forth discussions to go on about very trivial issues strikes me as most peculiar!
P.S. We do have plans for sorcerers as well.
Not to massively derail the topic but Sorcerers do get -BLOODMAGE-.
Wizards don't get anything that cool...Or do they? [dun dun duuuuun]
Bloodmage isn't exactly the same as special feat benefits.
Noticed Johannes was back - so bump.
Like a terrier with a hold of your pant leg, Coldburn's tenacity is relentless!
bumping this as it is still an interesting issue and annoying that they can't get divination bonuses. Wizards get a diverse amount of spells and losing one will not change too much while sorcerors get a very low diversity of spells as well as the fact that a sorceror should not use opposite spell schools but thats an IMO.
I actually agree with this, because sorcerers, by the nature of the class, are forced to focus with the few spells of high level they can truly choose. A wizard can have Scry and Arcane Eye by 7, while a sorcerer needs 9 to have both of them.
Giving them access may be beneficial!
We are thinking of ways to make sorcerors as a class more fun to play. Have faith :)