To avoid having to be around for long and boring trials, RPing on something that you know will just end with your character's death should be optional. I suggest that it should be given the option to just emote [and then he was trialed, judged guilty and executed], so players who have life outside the game and don't have all the time in the world to play, actually spend his hours on a character that he at least hope will get somewhere or have some development, opposite to have to log and emote his own trial/execution for hours and hours, sometimes days, waiting to find out his fate, just to learn he will lose his char anyway.
I think you should play it out because something may be planned >.<
I agree 100%. As someone who often plays a criminal there is nothing more tedious and painstakingly annoying than being arrested on capital crimes.
No other criminals to RP with usually. Nothing to do. Stygian PCs you have never met stop by to gloat at you. NPCs. Etc. People often say "LOL HEY DON'T WORRY WE CAN BREAK YOU OUT", but in reality there has been maybe one or two jailbreaks recently, if at all.
I can't even count on both hands and feet how many times I've been beaten down by a lawman and just asked them to kill me in the streets instead of arresting me.
It's rather quite annoying, detracts from RP, removes fun from the server, and is overall bad I think. A new system would be 100% welcomed.
I have seen many criminals let free for crimes they should of been executed for. Just stick it out if you want to or quit the PC in the cells and log in for your execution. It's simple to me, if you want the chance which has more than a few times, allowed guilty people to be set free for various reasons... wait it out.
Mmgh. Varies.
Been arrested on capital crimes three times with my Talosian. Twice, gotten away with it scot-free. Last time, well...
I did laugh at the idea of trials being boring. Trials have been non-existant for some time, really. Trials determine innocence or guilt, and when a PC's arrested, the verdict is usually a foregone conclusion.
Still, with the current system being quite similiar to a time-out...yeah. A change would be nice.
Trials? Boring? i love them from both sides. Most of the time my criminals end up being destroyed outside of the law so i miss out on this fun way to go.
There already is an option to skip trial and get executed, its called pleading guilty.
Well, most trials are done pretty much on the spot. The main reason they get delayed is for reasons such as the player on trial needs to log, or perhaps it's necessary to have someone online to finish it. But I've found this to be fairly uncommon, and the matter gets resolved pretty quickly.
I agree. Not that it has ever happened to me, but i imagine it must be a pain. If a DM is present the player to be executed isn't necesary one just needs to ask the player to write a line for his character on the moment he is to be executed, if any, retire it and then create an NPC copy of the PC, go to the top of the zig, say the line, if any, and be executed. If a jailbreak is to be atempted, then the PC has a chance of getting free so it's worth remaining.
This isn't modern day and trials are not only boring, but hardly make a ton of sense. Arrest them, make a judgement, and do it. However, I think that people should learn to use some more options besides FULL DEATH EXECUTION atop the ziggarut just to act like they did something amazing. Make them slaves, sell them off, and profit for your colony / faction instead.
There was an IRC conversation about this before, and I think there's a note worth noting.
There are obviously times to execute for a crime. But there is no OOC-courtesy difference between a Ziggurat execution and an alleyway murder. They are both an FD, yet only one has a fancy dress suit on.
So I would suggest that, on a case-by-case basis, it be considered whether a lawful murder (essentially what an execution is) is the best choice.
Especially considering the overabundance of mercy given by a lot of recent villains!
El groso - sorry you had to go through all that for an FD. You played it well despite how it all went down - serious kudos. If you keep kicking the beehive called EFU like this you will be running this joint before long.
Part of the deal with trials (and yeah, they're boring) is that lawful PCs can't really just haul off and back alley punish/kill people right off hand and still consider themselves real law abiding. A little more pomp and circumstance is required for the PC. It sucks when it gets really dragged out for whatever reason but most of the time its done with the hope that the losing party will survive for story building purposes. When FD is the obvious end state, matters should be moved along a bit.
Slavery is an interesting idea because it offers the opportunity for other PCs to save that character, if he happens to be popular/useful. Off hand I really don't have an idea how to go about it though - the PC would likely get bored while I clumsily tried to research through trial and error who I could sell him too. Unless I had specifically got ahold of a cooperative DM in my timezone ahead of time, discussed who would realistically buy this guy, and managed to actually have these events go down when said DM was online, I really just see that turning into a drawn out mess. I'd like to see a DM chime in on that before I seriously consider it as a valid PC ending option.
PC slaving is kind of messy, evokes a lot of emotions in both parties and seems to rarely work out in any sort of mutually satisfactory manner. I believe there is a lot of potential for fun here if people are creative and cooperative with it, but there remains a vocal part of the playerbase that is not interested in this in the least, understandably so.
Since this is a suggestion forum, I'll put forth a suggestion for this!
Instead of an FD, a criminal is sentenced to having an explosive collar sealed around his neck until such time as he has worked off his sentence (assuming a flat-out FD isn't warranted).
If he dodges out, kaboom!
I think a lot of law enforcement PCs are quick to execute because they know, failing that, the criminal will just regroup and come back stronger and more slippery than ever!
Bring back magistrates, and have players apply to play PCs that are able to deal with trials in a way that is both fun and quick.
If you play a criminal and get caught, in my opionion, one of the things you "pay" for it is to get a trial and very possible execution, choices and consequences, especially if you have FD'd/murdered someone.
But your notion of "paying" is an OOC one, while the notion of "criminal" is an IC one. Nothing OOCly renders Stygian law any more or less legitimate than Johnny's Ruins Gang Law, so your character isn't OOCly a "criminal".
That's where the disconnect in that logic occurs!
I put "pay" in quotes because some people seems to think that going through the trial is "punishment". Why not to see it as opportunity to get ending for the character?
I think that's partially because, often, the result seems to be a foregone conclusion, so the trial is really just a massive speed-bump that prevents you from getting the closure required to move on to the next character.
So you're character's dead, he's just waiting on the paperwork. Why not start your new character while sitting in death row? It'd give you something to do.
I kinda agree on this.
As the consistent player of a "Villain" I can say that there were time when I would have REALLY liked to continue on with a different angle. Maybe my badass thief wouldn't be opposed to double crossing everyone in the docks, or maybe my blood thirsty cleric would bring a war on the docks / natives without ever caring to mention your name or your mercy because it was fitting and still rather IC.
I might be the minority, but I don't always think that 15 different assault charges (Read, not far off from a drunk in a tavern who fights weekly) warrant a public beheading and execution atop the ziggarut. I also don't think that it should always be so RED vs BLUE in terms of punishment.
BOM basically cleared it up best when he stated that a scripted solution is probably needed, but I favor it heavily since it offers some PCs the chance to move forward with their goals from a different angle that they simply didn't have or withdrew from previously. We have Mythalars, scrying, and countless other magical aids at our disposal, let's get some tracking collars in for criminal slaves and call it "okay" for the sake of increasing the ever shortening lifespan of our lesser evils.
Use irc to coordinate your trial/execution/what have you and if you want to play something else while waiting nothing stops you from it. You just have to log in for the time the trial and/or execution takes and not spend all your day in a cell. If that bothers you, because it isn't something you want to spend any time on you should have considered that before making a criminal. Being trialed/executed, if you want it or not, is as much a part of your characters story as is being ganked/robbed for the ones who were poor enough to cross your way.
Of course from an ooc-perspective having a character ended by an execution is not really different from being ganked in a backalley, but it is what you asked for. Both you and your character knew the laws and the way things are handled in this setting. If you play a criminal you will have to deal with the consequences sooner or later.
To add my two cents to other points raised here: If you are unsatisfied with the ic laws that are used to bring judgement for ic actions you should make a Stygian/Patrician/or whatever next and strife to change them. Making a ooc suggestion to change ic laws, that have been used for years now, will likely not achieve anything.
I believe that kind approach is very good idea - yet, those dozen different charges come from killing, mutilating, stealing, causing some rather serious problem for the side that captures the perpetrator - they usually are there for some manner of a reason. Naturally for some absurd reason folks may have IC motivations to set up a sham of a trial or something else, but that's usually not the case.
The thing is, if you walk out of it just like that, it simply means these lesser evils can do what they want without the fear of the end. Which usually is the case anyway, as in my eyes many of the lesser evil have taken the stand that they are prepared for the death in player level, and risk it constantly when they make their choises.
It usually leads to kill and be killed - situations, and sometimes it simply is that an individual takes a hit on an opponent far more powerful than himself. (In el groso's case here a charge of piracy on some serious institution that has a lot to say in matters of colony)
In general it does not take ages to deal with matters, but in rare occasion it happens with no DM's about, or timezone issues between involved parties. It just happens and it's a side we usually have to deal with.
Trial's shouldn't be foregone conclusions. PC's should be making every effort to keep the story going.
For instance, Jonny Villain is level 5-6, and obviously low level as he has only existed a week. He's started his racketeering business, and is starting to incur the ire of the powers that be. He does something that could arguably be considered a capital crime.
Should the Dominion PC's :
1) Ignore the knowledge that he is lower level/less supplied and go -out of their way- to PvP him with a view to a sham trial where he will be executed anyway?
2) Let the story build further, plant spies/infiltrators to learn more about what he's doing, but essentially let him grow in stature so that the eventual reckoning is all the sweeter later on?
Answer? There is no right or wrong answer, really, it's a subjective question. Ultimately, it's nice to show people a bit of OOC courtesy and do things with a bit of class, but EfU has always been fairly hardcore when it comes to its player versus player, and there's a certain amount of acceptance that shit happens, and executions, subduals, and FD's come with the territory of playing a proactive PC.
In most cases, any capital crimes would be resolved in a day. The Dominion's not had a trial for months now, most is settled then and there depending on what manner of crimes you have committed.
In some cases and depending on the nature of crime, there may be a way out - no matter which 'law' you are judged by.
I do agree that it should not go days before a verdict is reached.
I'd say it would be better if PCs that wanted to argue their way out of a conviction had the chance to more often.
The last time I played a fast-talking crook, our faction ended up outlawed for running from the law when unusually, we were innocent. Even though we'd set up the situation to force our attackers to throw the first punch in earshot of a Stygian NPC, we got railroaded to Trial by Combat vs a much higher lvl PC.
I think a lot of what goes on in pvp is that people believe that criminal pcs should not FD people and that when criminal pcs are caught they should immediatly be brought to justice. For instance when myself and VP find some random person in the ruins and we beat them up we just subdual them and take a few potions and a little gold and send them on their way. Rarely do we ever resort to FDing them unless they have numerous times been a huge problem for us I.E betrayal and the like. However, and I realise its okay to kill monster pcs and I wouldn't fault someone for doing so- If someone were to win against myself and VP we would be brought to trial or just killed on the spot.
It seems as though a double standard of OOC courtesy has been established in which law PCs I.E Order and Stygians are able to FD wantonly because it is their job to bring people to justice and Criminals are complete assholes for FDing someone ever. I agree with the others on ways to not kill criminals for smaller crimes and the like and would like to see a lot more of my PCs being used as informants and what not in exchange for their life instead of getting their heads lopped off for not killing Johnny Stygian when I had the chance. I will however continue to go on with my current views on pvp in which I will keep you alive so that when you get more potions I can take those too ;)
I like to remind people, that in more than half of the cases I've seen options have been offered to the accused, and people have even been trying to search for reason to free them out of that player-side courtesy.
Folks tend to forget that they usually are caught for a reason, and sometimes even slip things that screw them over even deeper - not to mention when they have nearly always been offered options, redemtion, to turn the coat and work for ones accusers or beg them for their life - people always refuse.
There are those few moments when the small evil folk get killed fast and swiftly, but as people keep speaking of red vs blue setting, I like to think it's especially much more complicated. There are individuals with hidden agenda, greedy purposes to set someone in blame and have them vanish, some follow the rules to the letter with the ideal of "Not guilty until proven otherwise", because they could get screwed for making selfish mistakes on their own side.
These matters are never as simple as they are made to sound. If you act against some law/order that insitution attempts to hold, you got to recognise that you are not playing a fair game, and your opponents may not play it either. It might just seem like it, and on other times it's exactly that, but the criminal gives no other choise.
I agree on finding multiple options. Yet, before this people need to accept that when they go against laws that are rather openly presented and are often aware they are doing something wrong - they need to be prepared to face even most horrid consequences, or begin acting in more creative ways and ensuring they never cross the line of serious consequences, and hope they will not get screwed over by their evil twin in the other side of law-enforcement.
Someone will always have to be on the losing side. One way, or another. The depth of that loss just varies. Evil guy may be screwed over by another evil - whom just acts in different manner.
I think what a lot of us on the evil side are trying to say is that we leave people alive not because it's IC what we would do but because it would be OOC courteous. It perpetuates the story and we like that, but a lot of people do not appreciate the gesture or recognize that we do not do it to troll or grief you- we do it because it will be more fun for you to be alive and oppose us at some point. For instance in the last week and a half two of my evil characters were FDed in first time conflict between other pcs in which noone should have been killed. It just goes along with the PCs are not pumpkins idea and that smashing someone just because you can isn't always tasteful or fun. Its not against the rules it's just someone not wanting enemies or fearing retribution. It's just the life we live as criminals I guess :p. Just know if you're the lawman or the guy getting mugged we aren't going to kill you right away and atleast think about it a little before you are about kill us, that's all I ask. Killing someone for assaulting you on a server like this is pretty rash, yah know?
Personally I like the idea of having the authorities have the option of handing out lesser sentences so as not to make every trial just a prelude to execution. If you view the Trenadan Code as a guideline to maximum sentences rather than mandatory sentences, this becomes possible. Then the judge says, "Okay, persistent criminal conduct, muggings, violation of exile... but it doesn't rate the death sentence. Ten lashes, well laid on, then run the bum out!"
The game is full of whips anyway. Let's see them used! >.>
...or for a more humane alternative, "You're sentenced to public labour." Insert chore here like chopping down trees for a time (RPed for an hour, or possibly RPing skiving off from treecutting for an hour). During this 'public labour' the character is stuck with some sort of ball and chain item that reduces her/his movement and it is taken off when complete.
Criminals who have confessed and are cooperating might be given some sort of actual quest to complete. Like, carrying a load of grain from Blackhearth to the Dominion or something. (Or lumber, if the judge doesn't feel the penitent can be trusted with grain.)
Having PC magistrates might be an idea, yes. A position separate from the law enforcement itself is after all a way of checking the power of the watchmen and avoiding stuff like someone arresting some person they don't like and impose a fine just to harass them. (This is meant as an IC point of view from someone living in a world where the cops aren't fully trusted. It spreads the power around a bit and maybe, just maybe makes things a bit more fair.)
~tOH.
word, i hear the farmland project currently requires abled hands
ROFL. That was mean, Damien ^^
Believe it or not all it takes is some effort to get a lesser conviction. Most of the time its "SCREW STYGIANS I HATE U GUYS FUCK YOU!" and then get sentanced to death. Harrison could of very easily overturned his sentance if he made the effort in my opinion.
Also the reason for a lack of trials is a lack of players trying to be nobles. It isnt hard to become a noble so if you really want to see magistrates become a noble PC.
If you don't want a trial, ask for them to just get it over with.
If you want a trial, you should probably get it. I doubt many would agree, but I really, really wish that trials were made into a much bigger deal. I'd love to see/play an advocate for criminals on trial, or a prosecutor for the Count/Duke/Conclave, whatevs. I'm also a total geek over the law, for full disclosure.
Garemagistrate, fo sho.
The trouble I have always had with Trials in the Courtroom as a PC and DM is that it is something drawn out. I'd have 100% no problem if trials were involving PCs that the criminal knew well, coming forth to spew how vile and gloriously wicked he was, in a result of a lengthy conflict. Character witnesses crying about what he did to so and so related to them, how he ruined lives, and more to stroke a characters ego before the inevitable execution. A sense of impact made and otherwise.
Instead it's usually a bunch of stoned faced PCs never met gloating how awesome they were to catch him and how fucking fail he was as a human being for turning to crime.