Looking at the rogue perks (//%22http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53869%22), they look to be a lot of fun in putting a spin on a character, and I also think some of them could be used to give single-class Fighters some more options. Players often claim "Oh but I need rogue or bard for social skills". It's true, even with EFUSS points. Fighters get 2 SP a level and a very limited selection of class skills (No detection or social skills). Even before any pure rogue bonus loot I saw more pure rogues than pure fighters.
Taking a second class lets you branch out into having a few support and non-combat skills, and the skillpoints to invest in them. It gives you wand access and class abilities. It lets you have Uncanny Dodge if you play a finesse PC. All you lose is a couple of free feats and some HP. So, everybody does it.
The Politician, Commander and Diplomat perks could I think be available to pure fighters as-is, and represent officer-rank soldiers, noble guards, gang leader type PCs without having to take rogue levels. Wouldn't be as hard to let another class access them as to script up a whole new lot. Other perks that make not multiclassing an decent option would serve similar to the Scout and Thug perks for Rogues.
Ideas:
L5 perks
Sixth Sense
"You've always had a knack for dodging that blow from behind, and recognising a feint for what it really is."
Bonus: Gain the Uncanny Dodge Feat
Infuriating Presence
"You rub people up the wrong way often. It's annoying in the barracks, but a boon in combat"
Bonus: -1 Persuade, +3 Taunt
Watchman
"Whether a sentry, a nightwatchmen or a thief's lookout, you've trained yourself to see those devious sorts who slip past your comrades"
Bonus: +3 Spot
Fletcher
"The best weapon is the one you make yourself, they say. You like to spend your spare time making better arrows than the cheapjack merchants here sell"
Bonus: Gain a random stack of 99 arrows each reset.
L8 Perks
Soldier's Superstition
"You are strongly superstitious about mages, wand-slingers and others messing with you, and adorn yourself in evil-eye warding trinkets. Some of them probably even work!"
Bonus: Gain Spell Resistance equal to your character level -1.
Tactician
"Your years of experience on the battlefield have translated into an almost uncanny ability to outthink opponents"
Bonus: +2 Wisdom
Sounds cool to me as I usually go pure fighter and say to hell with the no umd
QuoteL8 Perks[/I]
Soldier's Superstition
"You are strongly superstitious about mages, wand-slingers and others messing with you, and adorn yourself in evil-eye warding trinkets. Some of them probably even work!"
Bonus: Gain Spell Resistance equal to your character level -1.
These suggestions do great harm to any suggestion you post (even if they are otherwise good). I just read this and my brain shuts off and dismisses everything else.
Perks for pure fighters would be cool.
I'm obviously not against the idea.
sorceror perks also!
Fighters gain a bonus feat every second level. A level 9 human fighter gains 10 feats. A level 9 human rogue gains only 5.
I'm kind of with Naga on this. Fighters dont need extra perks on EFUA, they are quite good without.
Bonus Feats that anyone can take, and don't add in any way to abilities other than face crushin'. Not to mention that you rarely see a fighter who isn't multiclass, as for most PCs, the tradeoff of 1-2 more feats is well worth the gains of 3 Rogue levels. The only unique thing to a Fighter is Weapon Spec.
The ideas I'd thought would be cool are ones that don't empower a Fighter in directly beating the shit out of something, but let them have the sort of abilities they'd normally multiclass for, as some of the Rogue perks do. These are meant to be for single-class Fighters only to help against wand-spamming, inability to detect stealthers or make social checks and so on. Most would require minimal scripting as copying the rogue perks to use "fighter" as a variable not "rogue" shouldn't be as big a big deal now if the class-specific system's there already.
Putting aside my bias, there are good reason not to give fighter's any more grounds for power. They are undoubtedly a solid class. The largest penalty is simply a lack of tools outside of weaponry to use. Fighters going guards are hard pressed to have a good observation, Fighter Ranger gains Wand and FE usage for the cost of a single feat. Even still, feats do provide a motivation to stay pure or mostly so.
If these would be added (because they could help keep power-building multi-classes down), the things that would be added must not stack on top of the fighters obvious strengths. So no ups to hit or damage, etc.
But if you look at the suggested list above, or things like it, none of them really offer any sheer power to the fighter that could not be gained with a simple multiclass. 1 level Ranger, 3 ranks into spot. Watcher is void. etc.
Just some thoughts to keep in mind tbh.
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Egon beat me to it!
"Fighters gain a bonus feat every second level. A level 9 human fighter gains 10 feats. A level 9 human rogue gains only 5."
A rogue gains lots and lots of other feats a fighter do not.
Compare a fighter to a barbarian and the barbarian will defenatly be the best. Pure fighters could use a boost, but it is not necessary.
Uncanny Dodge - though not quite as good as taking no damage on a successful save, you can boost your reflex save by use of feats (Luck of Heroes, the +2 reflex save feat, at least one other I cant recall due to being at work), and achieve almost certain half damage against at all times.
There are two feats that boost Spot.
There are two feats that boost intimidate.
There are two feats that boost Taunt.
You should be able to make arrows in either Herbalism or Alchemy, or a separate facet of crafting called Engineering should be added instead, imo. (I cannot confirm or deny that making arrows with alchemy or herbalism is possible in the new system. In the old system it was).
All I'm really trying to say here is that there are BOUNTIFUL uses for all those feats beyond building for "OMG CRUSH", and I kind of dislike the notion that additional perks should be added to Fighters so that they can take all the crush feats, and still have a chance to be a character built for a job other than pvp.
I am just going to say this first, that I dislike the mentality that because 'X class gets this, then X class should also get something'. Not every class should be equal in power, if thats how you want to measure it I guess. I also do not agree a barbarian is better than a fighter in any way. A fighter is extremely strong, probably makes the best warrior you can have, and can be alot of things not just a fullplate bringer of doom. Like Naga said, fighters get ALOT of feats and this allows them to do and be many things if you pick feats that are not the default must haves for a melee type. Perks are bonuses and should not make or break your character. Remember, there was a time on EFU that we never had perks or dreamed about them and people got along just fine.
Before I make any more perks in the implementation I've done, I need to properly test it and see that there's nothing harmful that's come from the new system.
After that, new perks are possible.
But rather than creating new perks for every class there is on EFU and so universalize the concept, why not have completely other systems/implementations for the other classes that deal with their unique role and concept?
I'd be more interested in hearing about possible such stuff myself. As of now, no fighter perks are being debated nor is the general feel that they need it. Feel free to discuss further though, it may be that this changes sometime.
But they are fun ^_^
It's just about new toys, new options. The new is important because it does renew interest in many things. Even if the DMs feel this isn't worth their time, most of the scripting will be there because of Rogue.
To be honest, Most classes that level up build on their unique powers. Spells get more powerful, barbarians get more Reduction better rages and more speed, Rangers get an increased boost to their FE. Fighters.. not so much.
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As for people saying you can pick all kinda of feats as a fighter, you should keep in mind the fighters have a relatively short list of crush feats they can pick their bonus feats from. Its not a pure sandbox.
Of course adding other feats into the Fighter bonus feat list would be interesting. It doesn't give them any more power, but does give them more malleable .
Use bonus feats for the must have crush feats. Use class feats for the RP stuff you also want.
Fighters are the only class capable of having improved knockdown, improved critical, weapon focus, specialization and blind fight, while still having room for more.
Fighter is a crush class. If you want to be a fighter, go pure fighter. If you want to have some listen/spot and still have the fighter abilities, multiclass!
As it is, Rogue was played very rarely and almost exclusively multiclassed. So, they did some magic. Fighter, meanwhile, is played a lot by a lot of people, both pure and multiclass. I really don't think they need any more.
Fighters don't need these, they have so many feats they can specialize easily anyway.
Perks for fighters... Really?
I'm a big fan of fighters in the Pathfinder rule system due to the ability to specialize so much with your chosen weapons via feats. I think to give some incentive to being a pure fighter you could implement (If possible) further specialization. This doesn't necessarily need to be in the form of AB or damage out put, albeit they could be.
These specilization options would become available at 8th level:
Critical Focus:
Upon choosing Improved Critical you can also chose from the following additions.
Blinding Critical: You're a particularly dirty fighter and whenever you can you go for eyes.
Upon a successful critical hit the target must make a fortitude save of 10 plus the fighters level minimum being 8 or be blinded for 1d4 rounds.
Bleeding Critical: Your critical hits are particularly cruel and brutal.
Upon a successful critical hit the target must make a fortitude save of 10 plus the fighters level minimum being 8 or begin bleeding as the wounding effect.
Deafening Critical: Confusing your opponent has lead you to many victories so you have honed this ability.
Upon a successful critical hit the target must make a fortitude save of 10 plus the fighters level minimum being 8 or be deafened for 2d4 rounds.
Stunning Critical: You always know where to hit someone to incapacitate them just long enough for you to win.
Upon a successful critical hit the target must make a will save of 10 plus the fighters level minimum being 8 or be stunned for 1 round.
Penetrating Strike:
Once or several times a day you can perform a Penetrating Strike. Your weapon acts as a +3 weapon for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction for 1 turn use.
Sword and Shield Specialization:
After many long hours of honing your skills you can now use shields more effectively + 1 Dodge AC when using a shield.
Single Weapon Specialization:
When using a single handed weapon and no shield you receive a +2 Dodge Bonus to AC and +1 to your attack rolls.
Two Handed Specialization:
When using a two handed weapon you gain + 2 to your damage rolls.
I think that fighters should instead of getting perks may pick a style to fight with:
Dirty Battling:
Your hits deal extra damage and improves knockdown and disarm. Maybe increase the original dirty fighting's power?
Defencive:
Shields give extra AC to fighters/passive AC bonus, and improves expertise mode
Striker:
While using power attack/imp power attack you do not lose as much AB. Also increases two handed damage?
lol on critical hit dc 18 stun, amazing...
Pure fighter is pretty solid. The abundance of feats also allows it to multiclass pretty well. The only real downside to a pure fighter is a lack of spellcraft options which hurts at higher levels. Of course, most of the stuff you -need- can be bottled, the only things that really hurt is having few options for overcoming DR (you can counter this with items that possess magic weapon charges, admittedly uncommon despite the one drop of a certain lowbie QA that get tossed, or you can try to find items that provide +1 vs. common mobs with DR) and a complete lack of dispelling options.
Pure rogue, comparatively, is very weak. Some of the powerful perks there only begin to balance it.
Dunno about Juzza's perks, they seem a bit too strong.
Juzza's are way to strong. Anything that adds at all to the fighters killing power is completely unwarranted.
They're just suggestions, maybe Talir will look at them and get a good idea.
When i think of fighter perks, i think of "combat styles" more than anything else. That i wouldn't be against. But fighters don't need buffs.
Dragging this back around to the original point, the argument boils down to this:
- Pure Fighters do not suck beyond usability, but multiclasses are more popular by far.
- This is because a second class lets you take skills and abilities unrelated to directly killing things, as well as a bushel of useful combat abilities.
- Pretty much every other class has some sort of bonuses that scale with class levels. Where they don't, EfU adds them, and well done to the DM team for that. Barb speed/rage/DI, Ranger skill bonuses and speed, custom bard song progression, Rogue abilities/perks/loot, new Wild Shapes, Spellslots etc.
- Fighters get nothing unique from leveling except more combat feats. So all you really lose from multiclassing is the ability to have both Impcrit and Imp KD, if you get L9, or to have one of them at 8.
- Fighters do not need a buff to help them smash shit up, it's the one thing they can do.
- Fighter (as a pure class) COULD use some scripted addition to let the class do more than just fight. Yes, I know, irony. But right now, Fighter is the class you take 4 levels in for Weapon Spec.
Yes, you can use your bonus feats on combat feats and the base feats to buff your crossclass skills, but... If you're going to lose a couple of feats to buff just one skill to a reasonable level, you may as well multiclass. You lose the same or fewer number of feats that way but get a load more, plus more Skill points and class skills to spend them on. Using feats and crossclassing is the trick you do on classes that
do have unique abilities as a pure class.
Quote from: "Talir"But rather than creating new perks... why not have completely other systems/implementations
Because giving pure Fighters more flexibility could be most easily done with a selection of skill bonuses and other abilities to allow customisation. What a pure Fighter really lacks are class abilities and Skillpoints to do so. The Extra Perk System you wrote is already there and could be modded more easily than coming up with a new system. I only mentioned this idea because of how it would be less work than some novel system. Figured it'd be a relatively simple way to promote an underused single-class choice. Only other thing I could think of would be giving a load more EFUSS points to pure fighters, to let them branch out that way.
Pure Fighters are nowhere near the terribleness of pure rogues.
Quote from: 9lives;236068Pure Fighters are nowhere near the terribleness of pure rogues.
True, and having played a pure fighter they can hold their own pretty well in a fight. I think what Egon is getting at is that fighters are a single rabbit from a hat, while others get several rabbits to chose from. He was suggesting giving them a small boost that can be applied to their other graces so every fighter isn't just a crushbot barb with more feats.
I wouldn't mind pure classes getting small bonuses that aren't too substantial as a token of their dedication, but it has to be so that both pure and multi class'd characters make sense
Although fighters are moderate they do not need true perks like rogues. They would be better off with something unqiue to their build instead of something similar to rogue perks. So how about:
BATTLE STYLES (you may pick 1 of 3 and the effects are permanantly to your character. It would be recieved at level 4 and increase it's power each level.)
DEFENDER:
When using tower shield and wearing heavy armor you get bonus AC at the cost of a minus to damage
GREAT STRIKER
You lose AC at the cost of gaining a damage and AB bonus while using 2 handed weapons
DUEL BLADED
When duel wielding you get a bonus AB and damage
Or even adding something similar to Commander/Swashbuckler?
I'm thinking of things that really make a fighter look diferent from another.
Fighting styles
A thousand cuts
You are agresive in your tecnique. Rather than waiting for one opening you attack mercyless, with several cuts that, while not deep, are very powerfull when placed together.
Only works with slashing and light weapons. Gain extra attacks per round, but get a penalty in damage and concentration.
Crushing blow
By incresingly pressuring your oponent with stronger yet imprecise attacks, given enough time a single hit will be strong enough to make him fall.
Every time you hit an enemy you gain +2 damage -1 AB. This lasts for rounds = to your caster level.
Pasive strike
Rather than trying to land strikes that are doomed to fail, you seek and wait for a good oportunity to land a direct hit.
Loose any extra attacks per round. Increse ciritical range by 1 or 2.
I'd support something along thouse lines