Rather than instant death, I think this spell would be improved and made more interesting by being not immediately lethal.
It is rather bland and feels rather cheap as it is, and probably one of the most disliked spells to die to.
Rather than just die, the target could be under a fear effect taking increased amounts of magical damage similar to the drowning system. They'll still die if alone, but allies can cancel the spell's effects with clarity and offer healing.
The damage ought to be pretty steep, and perhaps the reaper animation can be persistent on the target until it dies or is removed.
Another idea is to simply change it to a high level summon with trueseeing that has no collision, cannot die, and will focus unerringly on the target of the spell for a certain duration if the saves are failed.
Mind spell protection would still block, or at least reduce the effects of both of those.
I think changing this spell whichever way would be a good thing.
Not all spells need to be equal.
Indeed not all spells are equal, as most people claim but people, this is speaking on making certain spells flavorful.
Give it a good look over before the claims some spells are better than others. I myself am irritable when it comes to DC vs Death. Indeed phantasmal killer is a 1 hit KO, can be blocked by PfA and lastly is not interesting.
Truly I want to see spells become more interesting in style rather than a common ice storm, haste, hold person.
If spells were more complex and "interesting" than they already are then even fewer players on the server would be able to mechanically grasp a caster class.
I would not call for more complexity in a class that so few people know how to play effectively.
No thanks. Most of the problems with the spell are caused solely by neutral aligned spellcasters with GSF Illusion. In almost every other circumstance the spell is incredibly well balanced.
I actually quite like the idea of changing it to a summon, possibly brief but powerful.
All the people with GSF: Illusion that we generally see are different flavours of Neutral, mostly TN.
I like the ideas myself. Some sort of summon with max speed that locks onto the target and has high AB if they fail a save. Duration could be something like 1 round / 2 levels, increased to 1 round / level with GSF illusion or something. :)
So long as its much much more powerful then a regular summon. I think it's cool too actually, and I just got done playing a NE GSF Illusion wizard. But it also would need to be made immune to the Control Companion tool, it would need to do enough damage that it feels like a death spell worthy of a double save still, and it would need to last a awhile.
Typically, Its easier if you just not use the spell to end people. On subdual ist just an ungraded and horrifying cool Hold person anyway.
Both sound like really cool flavorful ideas! I think I favor the first one more though- fear effect with increasing magic damage. Like maybe 10% first round, then 20%, then 40%, then death. A more dramatic way to be scared to death! *grins impishly*
Please don't make it a summon.
Thanks.
The lamest spell? Seriously? I can think of worse. Slay Living can only be blocked by Deathward and a touch attack's not hard to make. Drown is a deathspell in all but name, knocking off 90% of the target's Hitpoints in one blow and being unblockable by anything. An Umberlant can have it at L9 and it's Transmutation, a great GSF to have for a Cleric. Compared to those, a spell that is blocked by Mind Immunity or being a Paladin and uses two saves, one of which is Fear is hardly that OP. Most classes have either good Will or good Fort anyway.
I dislike deathspells generally as one hit wonders but they do have a place. Slamming a target with Confusion, Evards, or Extended Hold Person will kill them just as dead when you blast them in the next couple of rounds but the advantage of PhK is it's a fire and forget weapon, a chance to hit something that you don't have the time to stand about battling. If you could heal someone, it'd just turn into Super Combust, easy to counter by heal spam unless it dealt a lot more than their HP over time. Or it'd be a copy of Infestation of Maggots, but with the weakness of being a Mind spell. If you're damaging them like Drowning, then it strips invis on you as you're escaping. If it's a summon, it'll transition with you and leave the enemy.
So, here's what I suggest, a change to the death system itself, because PhK is the weakest example of a death effect there is. Full Damage Death effects shouldn't kill a PC outright, but instead drop them -6 HP, mortally wounded. On Subdual, it would leave them at +4 HP. This would mean a hit and run attack would leave the victim easily finished with a Magic Missile or melee attack, but allies *could* save them in the next 3 rounds if they were fast. It would make deathspells in DM encounters less of a bolt from the blue and more of an unexpected threat to respond to.
Two saves, one being fortitude, means it's likely the spell won't kill if cast once, rather you need to call it 2 or 3 times. Cast Evard's 3 times, or ice storm 3 times and (Without any GSF) you'll kill the PCs too.
It's fine. Leave it please.
As fun as rolling poorly then instantly dying is, I think some of the ideas by Nihm would be pretty cool.
this is an amazing idea. PhK has a "Reaper Summon" could potentially make it an actual illusion worthy of the name instead of a death spell.
Quote from: Egon the Monkey;248347Full Damage Death effects shouldn't kill a PC outright, but instead drop them -6 HP, mortally wounded. On Subdual, it would leave them at +4 HP. This would mean a hit and run attack would leave the victim easily finished with a Magic Missile or melee attack, but allies *could* save them in the next 3 rounds if they were fast. It would make deathspells in DM encounters less of a bolt from the blue and more of an unexpected threat to respond to.
This right here seems pretty cool, if only for the dramatic potential. It might be hard to balance between 'time enough for some last emotes' and 'trivial for a buddy to come stabilize you' though.
Quote from: Egon the Monkey;248347So, here's what I suggest, a change to the death system itself, because PhK is the weakest example of a death effect there is. Full Damage Death effects shouldn't kill a PC outright, but instead drop them -6 HP, mortally wounded. On Subdual, it would leave them at +4 HP.
I like this except I think it'd be better if it left them at 0hp and stabilized when in subdual mode. That way it, you know, subdues them.
ditto. However I do think Death spells should still most often end in death. Its just nice if we could find a way to trasntion into that doomed end, rather then BANG fugue.
@aclockworkMelon
Yeah, I considered that, except it would make it possible more powerful in Subdual Mode than Death mode. Down and bleeding out, you can be healed and get back up. Subdued, you are out for the count as it WILL knock you out of the fight. You could therefore Sub someone then FD them. The idea was that Death spells should give a chance to save the dying PC, making them less cheesy and more interesting. For example, firing a Deathspell on FD to cover your getaway, leaving your foes to go back for their ally. Could be 4 HP and KDed as per Gust?
Quote from: Egon the Monkey;248465@aclockworkMelon
Yeah, I considered that, except it would make it possible more powerful in Subdual Mode than Death mode. Down and bleeding out, you can be healed and get back up. Subdued, you are out for the count as it WILL knock you out of the fight. You could therefore Sub someone then FD them. The idea was that Death spells should give a chance to save the dying PC, making them less cheesy and more interesting. For example, firing a Deathspell on FD to cover your getaway, leaving your foes to go back for their ally. Could be 4 HP and KDed as per Gust?
If you're in pvp and go to bleeding, you should still be considered subdued and out of the fight without permission to get up from a DM.
Quote from: TakenByVisions;248469If you're in pvp and go to bleeding, you should still be considered subdued and out of the fight without permission to get up from a DM.
The only reason to stay still when you're subdued is because you've lost the fight. They've won. It's a mechanic to keep players involved in the conflict. It's an alternative to immediate FD. If you're bleeding, it means somebody wants you to die but they haven't finished the job yet. They haven't won. Different subdual states, different win conditions.
I'm sorry, but if you're saying that I'm supposed to sit there and let you kill me, then I refuse. If I get the chance to get up from bleeding, I'm going right for your throat.
If you're downed into negatives and get healed, you can get up, Dms have confirmed it before (//%22http://www.escapefromundeath.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54674&highlight=negative+hitpoints%22), but that exact situation of sub someone, then FD them is why I asked. Someone being healed and getting up again to kill you is the admittedly small risk you take on FDing them over subduing. To state the obvious, if the Death System was designed to take bleeding PCs out of the fight for the duration as well as dying, it'd apply the subdual effects even after they recover, if it was a PC dealing the blow. Of course then you could just keep hitting them until they died.
Back on topic, the suggestion I'd made was to apply a change to deathspells across the board. They're incredibly frustrating things in that your allies can't respond to save you and the counters to Death are short duration and rare. A couple of ice Storms might wreck a PC but Insulation's not hard to get or you can heal someone if it doesn't finish them. Tentacles is horrible but does take a while to kill someone since the change, so a brave/buffed PC can run in and heal, or someone can AoE dispel it. If your PHK Driveby TN Illusionist had to stick around a few more rounds to finish the job, it wouldn't be seen as such a cheap shot. If a superboss NPC's deathspells led to widespread chaos and panicky healing rather than PCs suddenly dying without a chance to counter it, it would be more of a group challange and less of "well, we're fugued, sucks to be near that when it turned up".
Actually that is confirming that you should check with a DM at the time, not the other way around.