Yeah, I know this is probably going to sound odd, but the more I think about it, the more I reckon that Web immunity gear shouldn't be on the server, let alone as no-restriction no drawback boots and leathers. It's not sour grapes or anything, I actually figured it after my conjuration sorc alt bought a set of Spiderstep boots so he'd never friendly-fire himself with a Web.
Web is the only mid-level spell that can hold an opponent in place, has a reasonable range and can't be countered by a simple PfX, Blur or Clarity potion. It's also a Reflex save which means it's got a chance against a Cleric.
Considering that, it's a bit like having a proliferation of Knockdown immunity gear.
IMO, mages are very much weaker on EFU than an unmodified server, For a few reasons, such as:
The removal of their "right hands", the powerful Familiars.
The weakening of the spell Stoneskin which was made to be a long lasting buffer that will take the edge off a sudden attack to turn/level.
The fact that potions/spell effect consumables (good example, there's a LOT of summon gear) are easily acquired by melee characters as drops whereas wizard/sorc consumables are few and far between in comparison (Exception, one quest). This means a mage has to have a constant loadout of offensive spells or an expensive stockpile of scrolls to be dangerous (either for sudden PVP or protracted PVE), whereas say a Fighter can acquire gear on quests and constantly be ready. I have to say I liked the early days where consumables were rare, and healing priests were useful, even though my main PC, Labur was part of the problem by having his monopoly on Serious healing potions.
Feel free to disagree on that, and if you do, please give me some pointers. Yes, I realise that a fully loaded up mage can be incredibly powerful, but the rest timer precludes that being an option most of the time, as quest spells and PVP spells don't really overlap.
A very good point. Although I tend to use spells like summon creature III (try spell resisting THAT!) and blur.
And I realized this problem pretty quickly, this is why my wizards usually multi-class to fighter/ranger/paladin, to get the HP and AB.
(http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/1777/wizardsf7.th.png) (http://img296.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wizardsf7.png)
My tiny image says it all.
I am just going to admit upfront that I suck. My PvP tactics pretty much amount to drinking a potion of expedient retreat and running away to find help. Then hiding and hoping they don't find me.
But I do agree with Egon's post. When playing a Wizard you have to know who and what you'll be fighting in order to prepare the right spells. Let's do a bit of comparison.
Wizard Weaknesses:
- Limited Number of Spell Slots
- Most spells have a saving throw
- Low AC
- Low HP
- Most spells can be completely resisted with common items (blur, elemental resistance, PfA, etc.)
Wizard Strengths:
- Can quickly take down or disable an opponent if the opponent is unprepared
- Can enhance the abilities of melee characters, thus enabling them to save gold on consumables that they themselves would likely make (thus in turn costing them gold)
Fighter Weaknesses:
- Vulnerable to many types of magic.
Fighter Strengths:
- Many consumables and items exist to eliminate their main weakness.
- A fighter never grows tired of swinging his sword, giving him an unlimited number of attacks that is directly proportional to how fast he can heal himself from damage.
- Consistent damage
- High HP
- High AC
If it were not for consumables wizards and fighters would be on a more equal ground. I would even go as far as to say that the Wizard would have a definite advantage. However, due to all the useful items and consumables the main strength of the wizard (the ability to disable or take down their opponent quickly) is completely negated.
My suggested solution? Give Wizard's something to counter it. More spell slots would be helpful. It would allow us to memorize dispels to get rid of the buffs and still take our damaging spells. As it stands the limited number of spell slots is the main disadvantage the wizard has. The melee character can swing his blade all day, and drink blur, PfA and elemental resistance potions until he pukes magic. We are still limited by the number of spells we can cast, and in the end the melee character will almost always have more consumables than we have spells.
Strong enough as is.
I actually see *no* problem with immunity knockdown items for the record.
A good wizard should be prepared for someone who is immune to some of your spells.
A sorcerer is screwed though, and should be. Its part of the balance of that class.
Heh. The "balance" of sorcs at EfU levels is basically "One trick pony. At best, two tricks. And not very good tricks either" :P
I can't seem to make them as effective as wizards so far. On the other hand, a l8 sorc with Polymorph and buffs is fairly badass for the amount of times they can spam it. See Blackpaws for details.
I just used my conjurer as the example though. He's never fired a Web at a player. The point is, Web's the only holding spell you can't block out with a single common potion. It's why my wizard PCs have tended to have one on standby for blocking escapes. It's a definite slow and a possible hold.
Oh, Aldrick's got a good list there but misses the other main weakness I forgot. Rest restrictions. You can't reprepare for any given situation. For example, a gank/monster attack outside a quest area is death to a mage, but not a fighter-type PC. The only reason combat characters need to rest is to recharge any 1/day items they might have.
I'd say that common wand drops would go a long way to balancing things, but then builds with Rogue levels and UMD or Bard/fighter builds would get access too unless they were fixed to Wizard/Sorc only and high UMD checks. The thing is that a highly supplied fighter doesn't need a mage for anything other than weapon spells, but a mage does need meleers because summons and familiar power/duration is reduced, so they can't serve as tanks for you.
Also, yeah there should be KD immunity gear. I even suggested some That skill hoses anything without discipline points. It's a scary prospect for melee rogues when mobs have it.
Gusting Wind? I know it isn't that effective or long lasting, but it still lets you get off either a RUN AWAY spell or a face melting one.
True, but that's that's a spellslot higher, a bigger AoE than web, so more backfire problems, and it's also a fort save. All this for 2 rounds of immobilisation.
HP being changed to "mind affecting" is probably the biggest problem for wizards to overcome defensively, especially if they're not True Neutral. It moves the burden on an attacker from uncommon/expensive/short duration Clarity potions to cheapo/common as muck PfA ones.
It's just be nice if Wizards/sorcs were, you know, scary. They can manipulate the energies of the universe to blow great smoking craters in hordes of onrushing enemies, but when it comes down to it, they can never be as intimidating as Man With a Pointy Stick, as you know most of the time they'll be set up for buffing and won't be able to take you. That's why all the factions are led by melee characters, as they know they have a good chance to survive assassination/treachery.
Exception: The Spellies were feared, but then they had friggin' Terminators as buddies :P.
Wizards are not underpowered by any stretch of the imagination, and thus I don't see how they require any special help.
LOL. Well well... getting there, maybe.
D&D is one of the first real cooperative games. Classes meant you ought to depend on people with other skills than yours. Having too many items that replicate other class abilities is a bad thing imo, but that's just me.
That part i agree with: there's too many spell like items that any class can use, which renders UMD and spellcasters a bit useless. And EfUA has better items than EfU, so it's double trouble.
That being said, as much as i agree that in terms of class balance, mages have a problem (because EfUA is low level server), it really matters only in pvp... Class balance is not an issue in questing, or in rp.
If you want to initiate pvp, do it in a way that puts you at your advantage. Bring buddies, take the element of surprise, whatever.
If pvp is brought on you, whatever your class, you'll fall if you are taken by surprise. If not, you can escape, come back later when you're in a better situation. And mages are really good at escaping. Sadly there doesn't seem to be a speed penalty for armored folks, which means Mr. full plate can chase Mr. cloth as he pleases.
Just a tip: use a potion/wand/ scroll for your escape spell (retreat/speed: not invisibility: everyone uses seeing). If you cast, you risk getting interrupted, and low hp mages don't get another chance.
My point is: yes low lvl mages (can) suck, but that's supposed to be that way. And even then, the coins you don't spend on armor, healing, blur, etc, can actually be put to very good use.
Mage's strength should not come only from their spells, but also from their buddy list and coins. Also from high INT, but that's useless in pvp.
Mage's strength also come from unity in handing out their powers. Guilds exist to prevent tons of potions, wands, and such being given out to potential enemies, to supply allies, etc. Get a mage guild that trusts potion brewing, that send thugs beat up those who don't obey guild regulations, and you'll see less hostile PCs with piles of blur and speed. Those who do will be on the mages' side...
Gust of wind, Cloud of Bewilderment can work well, not sure if PfE catches that one though. Evards will work, Slow can work, Grease works wonders, as it's horribly bugged and can slow someone to a literal crawl if you stack a couple of them up, blind/deaf is always a great source of CC as well.
Get creative, attack from unexpected angles with unexpected spells. Commonly used tactics are going to be well defended against, a pair of quickened Grease spells can really ruin someones day though.
Blur beats grease, it's L1. I know because a team I was with used grease dart spam and blur potions to own Wildorcs once.
@letsplayforfun:
True, but the mages' guild thing only works if you assume all mages want to cooperate. And yeah, you don't spend coins on combat consumables, but you rarely ever find useful mage equipment to the same degree as combat gear/potions. And it's not like anyone ever says "Ah, that wizard needs money for scrolls, we need potions. You get a bigger share of the gold, we get all the potions".
I suppose what I'm getting at is that when you're out of spells, that's it, as unless you whore potion brewing and merchanting unwanted loot, you can't get hold of the same "consumables for all occasions" setup a fighting char can. This can get kind of dull unless you load up on Heal points/gear and run around herbing.
Possibly a way round it would be more caster only restrictions on items with spell charges. There's a lot of stuff with spell charges limited to nature classes, but surprisingly few limited to arcane classes by comparison. I mean in the UD, Bards got a lot of options with the loot off Tomb of Jubal, for example, and here, Rangers get a lot out of the Bears quest (if that's re-enabled). Yeah, there's Lab but that's 3-6 and drops scrolls not multi charge gear.
A caster's strength is their spells, a fighty type char is in hitting things while remaining unhit. You see a good variety of weapons with massive crits bonus dmg, +AC gear etc, but very few bonus spellslot items off the top of my head. Of the ones that aren't DM loot or expensive shop gear, all I can think of are the Wizard's Baton, which I've only seen once and almost started a wizard fight when we all saw it, two Cleric items (one Evil only and one from a very difficult, obscure low lvl quest) and one bard pendant.
Maybe I'm just bored of buffbotting, and wish there was more equipment or situations to give my wizard other options.
Web immunity is fine (and actually probably a boon for wizards, especially with questing.) The LAST thing wizards need are more advantages.
I think wizard, like paladin and ranger, is a class that is so difficult for the common player to rock out as that it should become app-only, so that the only people playing wizards are people who can actually play wizards.
Supplement these masses of consumables that are apparently about so that you don't waste spell slots casting them in PvP. There is nothing weak about wizards.
I also heartily endorse a mage guild that beats up rogue brewers.
There is indeed an overabunance of consumables currently. I think the most effective way to balance the class for the server is to tap down on this and allow casters to, not only brew for gold, but also serve a -neccessary- purpose on quests.
In regards to Web, there are plenty of ways to win PvP as a wizard, be creative with your spells, prepare for what you expect to face, and always have an escape plan.
I think the argument here is being framed wrong. Yes, it's about PvP - for me, at least.
My argument is not that Wizard's are weak, my argument is that Fighter's are too powerful due to consumables.
Create some common items that drop that have charges of Greater Dispelling, make it wiz/sorc only with ultra high-UMD needed, and I'll be happy.
Having a limited number of spell slots vs a huge amount of easy-to-obtain consumables that deny me almost anything I can cast on you simply sucks. If EfU was a higher level server this would be irrelevant, but since it's not it only results in my Wizard creating a gank squad to kill you.
I have to disagree. It comes down to who surprises who in PvP and not being stupid as well as your own preparedness v. their lack thereof. It's sort of like rock-paper-scissors, but more complicated!
A fully buffed fighter against a fully buffed wizard with spells (since the wizard should have access to things like ImpInvis, Stoneskin, etc.) OUGHT to lose. Dispels are very powerful, very important spells and there is NO immunity to them available to warriors. Plus, potion effects are easy to remove with just a lesser dispel wand.
Lesser Dispel Wands are somewhat common. I've seen several. The problem is that they often only remove one or two things, and typically it isn't what you -need- removed. By the time you're using it again, they're using more consumables.
I do agree that a HUGE factor in PvP is surprise, and whoever starts the battle is often the one who wins it. I always try and be prepared for PvP - mostly to escape, and to return and fight on my own terms for that very reason.
Although, I don't think anyone can deny that something like protection from alignment is -far- too powerful for a first level spell. You get +2 deflection bonus to AC, +2 to all saving throws, and immunity to any mind-affecting spells and spell-like abilities used by creatures of the chosen alignment. That's insane.
PfA should grant +2 deflection bonus to AC and +2 to all saving throws against creatures of the chosen alignment. That's it. That is powerful enough as it is - throw me a bone, damn it. At least let me have a chance of fighting back against someone who jumps out of no where buffed to the teeth. Give me a chance to cast something and run away, at least. :p
Oh well. I still have my potions of expedient retreat, assuming they don't drink one as well and chase me. >_>
I don't see the problem. Immunity gear, while useful, seems to be few and far enough between that fighting against person who happens to have one or two is really a non-issue. If an enterprising wizard drops Web on himself, wonderful! I've seen a pair of boots with entangle immunity on them, so rangers and druids can do the same thing. In my experience neither spell is often used since they often hurt the wizard's team as much as the enemy's.
PfA isn't unbalanced either, there's plenty of horrible effects available for wizards that aren't Mind-Affecting.
Wizards have the advantage at the get go for PvP. Then can hold, stick, knockdown, blind, and a whole slew of other options in PvP all from a distance. Wherein a fighter can usually only knockdown, if they've taken the feat. PfA should remain as it is to give the -fighters- an honest chance.
PfA in its current form is like having clarity cast on you vs an entire alignment group, and it lasts WAY longer. Clarity is a level 3 spell. PfA is a level 1 spell. PfA practically makes Clarity a worthless spell.
It is considerably more powerful than its PnP version.
Having PfA changed would make feats such as Iron Will more valuable (PfA + Iron Will gives +4 to your will saves vs an entire alignment group), and gives +will and bonus vs mind affecting magic gear much more value in game.
I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that consumables don't make melee character's more powerful than they really should be...