-Stargazers.
Stargazers are the dwellers of the wild, native to Ymph, they live both in harmony with the natural world and respect it. They follow the Old ways for the most part. They suffer, however, of a great deal of prejudices! Think of the Withering, that curse that eats the flesh of your PC and will eventually kill all your characters. Think of the Hbala, the foe, the true enemy of the people of Mistlocke and Ymph. Most, 90% of the population of Mistlocke, blames the stargazers/druids for the return of the Hbala. Understand that, please, this prejudice that the WITHERING, the fact that everything bad almost happening is very vivid in the mind of NPCs and that, helping to stop a tribe of local kobolds, wont curb that belief away... It isn't even proportional. NPCs wont be tolerant. NPCs will roleplay their prejudices.
-Death of an NPC.
Subdual is an easy way to make a mundane event out of a not-so mundane event. When you subdue someone, you are still beating them to an inch of their life. It's impossible to subdue NPCs, but it's possible to do so if the DM acknowledges prior to their death. There is still a chance that the NPC might die and that you'll have to do with the consequences of murder, which will be the same as if you murder a PC, depending if the PC was an exiled, a bandit or a citizen.
-Proportionality.
Hitting someone with a fist as hostile is NOT the same as hitting them with a greataxe. Hitting someone with a fist while fully buffed with magic is NOT the same as hitting them without all this magical support. There are nuances that your character should be aware of and that makes the gameworld seem more real if they are taken into account.
I dislike when players portray other players who roleplay these nuances and prejudices as the bad guys. They're not! You dont have to be CE to have prejudices. You can be LG, NG or CG. I dont want to seem like the bad guy by enforcing these either, but I'll play that role and enforce it if need be.
Amen.
Prejudices are part of roleplay and they help make things interesting. I should make two small comments, however. One, while I may or may not be ICly irritated at someone showing a prejudice, I do reserve the right to become ICly very irritated indeed at someone who insults or is rude to my character for not sharing a prejudice. Two, if I am the target of that prejudice, I am very likely to respond negatively indeed. I may not consider the person showing the prejudice to be a villain or 'bad guy', but I am highly likely to consider said person an enemy.
Having a prejudice (or many of them) is not a license to play like an ass and be immune to repercussions. Those who share your prejudices may well back you up. But the people you aim them at will remember, and will not necessarily choose the pacifistic option of trying to convince you that you are wrong.
What about new PCs to the island, are they likely to have a prejudice on the stargazers? After all they don't know any of it.
Quote from: Drakill Tannan;251834What about new PCs to the island, are they likely to have a prejudice on the stargazers? After all they don't know any of it.
I'd say they'd be more likely, not less, since the first thing they're likely be told of the Stargazers is that they're responsible for H'bala, the Withering, and the plight of the island. Having no prior knowledge of Stargazers, and hearing that they're savage cannibals, it seems to me that they become very easy and believable villains.
but they are so cute
Resist the urge! (//%22http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np6vAuS0KNs&feature=related%22)
I, as a player of an elf, will forever play my current and all future elves as utterly hateful regarding half-orcs or other PCs with orcblood. Orcs are, as some may not know, the ancestral enemy of the elves and so i feel this is completely justified. As for relations to other races. All my chars are rather tolerant as i think tolerance lets me have fun with more people... To me, personally, its not that fun to log on and know 90% of the players online will kill you on sight. That is not my cup of tea, it's propably also why i don't play major villains.
TL;DR version
racism and hate is good, as long as it makes sense for your char..
That all makes sense.
In the case of Muster vs. Stargazers I for one didn't know OOCly (since im new) and ICly of such a background that acted as a motive for the assailant. I of course reacted to it as if the attack was a most cowardly attack on two halflings, who helped to find a cure. So that illuminates the whole thing well enough for me :)..
This is one of the things I keep trying to tell people about playing True Neutral characters: it doesn't necessarily reflect some commitment to always find a compromise. It doesn't mean you have to play this Debbie Downer who is always trying to suck the life out of every conflict. It doesn't even mean you're going to refrain from violence, or for that matter, doing someone a favor. It just means that you don't tend toward one of the eight alignment extremes.
A neutral character can still have prejudices, likes and dislikes, and things they're willing to die for. Alignment doesn't change any of that, it just colors it.
But I want to be friends with everyone!
Playing a Stargazer myself, I enjoy the multitudes of prejudices and ways people view stargazers. It adds to the experience.
I'd like to point out one thing, though. PCs are not commoners; they are not bakers, housekeepers, smiths, who sit around in their 99% Human villages. PCs are adventurers, and by definition see the world, and experience other cultures and different perspectives of the world.
Mort is right, of course. But I would like to see a little nuanciation from adventurers who understand the world is bigger than their town, who knows black and white are but two colors with a hundred shades of gray in between. If your Human is tolerant to Dwarves, Elves, Halflings, Gnomes and whatever it is not hard to become tolerant to another race who has been helpful to you.
Race conflict is fun and I even encourage it, but don't take it to unnatural extremes. I enjoy the race-crimes just like the next man, but keep what I've said in the back of your head.
The more the setting feels like 21st century civilized thought, the more depth is lost.
The more it feels like an apocalyptic, gritty struggle of imperfections and prejudices, the more depth is gained!
If you're lucky like me. You'll end up playing a character who has prejudices against everyone and everything.
Ymph does that.
Everything has to be dark and grim and gritty these days; how cliche. I am so tired of Space Marines.
Fortunately, EFU:M can't simply described as that; it's far more hued and complex, at least from the perspective of the eternal semi-outsider- this gives it depth, mystique and secrets, something that we always like to come back for.
It takes a lot of motivation to hate someone. Some players do not enjoy playing people with a lot of hatred towards anything. Not everyone enjoys spending their free-time being mean to icons that are controlled by other people.
No amount of pestering with if, and, or buts is going to change this fact. Not at least until one of the little savages runs up and tears off your leg an starts chowing down. At that point it stops being some distant understanding that this curse (which we don't really experience at all, btw) is the direct cause of all savages, and becomes that little tard bit off my leg! So as long as people play stargazers as appealing to character's morality, rather then being alienated because of it, we're going to see lots of people defend the pale skinned vampires.
If the DMs want it otherwise, perhaps get the town to offer rewards for dead stargazers. For capturing druids to be burned at the stake. Actively appealing to some other form of motivation that creates this turmoil you're after. Likewise, the gazers can be told by their elders to avoid the people, to not make friends, to not create weaknesses, when you have a "home" that expresses their opinions in ways that become tangible to the character you will see results.
It has to be a two way street, however. You can't just reward the town for killing gazers, you have to reward the gazers for fulfilling their end of the conflict. If you don't: then the people that hunt the gazers in the town with be black sheep amongst the others in the town that feel hostility is the fault of the actor. You need to have gazers earn this rep consistently.
You cannot untrain 'Reason' for superstition and traditions. Sure the Renaissance hasnt happened yet, and people shouldnt be thinking that logic and facts leads to conclusions. Blame and accustation of the most trusted figure will not just automatically mesh with the thought process of the modern player.
On a historical note, Mother Earth is understood by many during the dark ages to be one of the most important things to their lives. It is the source of their food, their water, the animals, everything that they are is directly linked to this reliance on their lands. Hunting down Druids that tend and speak for it for any reason isn't going to be wise; Neither Traditionally nor Rationally. That might change if the mists didn't protect the village and everyone was a ticking time bomb.
Wizards's of any kind should be just as hated. It -is- arcane magic that is killing the land, that has killed Nebezzdos, that is turning people into zombies. The Gazers... well, really it -is- their fault, so that's an easier leap.
One of the things I've liked about EfU is that so many people "do it wrong." They use the word "racist" and speak to things like unity of the races and religions, cooperation, all that bullshit that doesn't happen in Toril. At least, not in the backwoods hick villages where we're all supposed to be from.
And likewise, that nobody here is particularly afraid of a good Hater, and in fact such characters and the people who play them don't simply sneer at everything different, but have justifications, backgrounds and beliefs that synergize with a hostile environment that this setting absolutely is.
I don't think there's anything wrong with things the way they are right now, by which I mean: EfU, keep on shining you crazy diamonds!
Well no, it's not just okay the way it is. It is actually really frustrating to me when I see characters in the Numinous Order, Stygian Armada (previously of course), and countless others simply open their arms to these rather savage and primitive creatures. They eat the dead, worship totems of animals rather than the gods (something else to bicker at them for), oppose civilization to an extent, and were the driving force behind releasing H'Bala. They are not cuddly Ewoks or fuzzy little animals you can domesticate and play with.
First off I think that the fact that they are Halflings and the general misconceptions that race receives in the first place causes a slight issue. Nothing can be done about that part on either side of the spectrum however, we'll always have hyper-active and cutesy Halflings to annoy us sadly.
Secondly, and more importantly, I think that this subrace and faction needs to have a more in-depth guide detailing their general behaviors, attitudes, and daily happenings. Even getting a hold of the totem list was difficult for a long time, and it really should not be kept an OOC secret, nor should anyone expect these characters to act as they were imagined to be if they simply don't know about them.
As far as the curse is involved and what it is. It's a roleplaying server, means you are the actor that's meant to do the acting, here. We're handing you bits and pieces of play script, ambience, information, setting, a few premade scenes, but its your job to mesh that all that with your creation (your character!). Some people are going to "Leonardo Di Caprio" it, while others will go the "Stallone" route...
Think of it like the Underdark and being a slave. Your character had to take into account that he was stuck there, it had to be part of his story. He had to take into account that he had passed some time in slavery. That all creates depth, purpose and a goal to escape the Underdark which you could use -- it was like one of those easy-bake goals that were precooked and you just eat it up. This is exactly the same thing. It's a tool to help you create depth, have an easy premade goal, roleplay being scared, uncertain, scarred, etc. All possibly interesting scenarios.
Anyway, it seemed like the three beliefs I mention were common slip-ups, whether intentional -- because you can't roleplay animosity/fear/mistrust in a game that ,yes, is something-for-fun but it is a roleplaying server... we're roleplaying because we enjoy that challenge of being really immersed into a character, setting or situation and seeing the story unfold. -- or non-intentional because the information displayed through the gameworld is often incomplete and innaccurate and sometimes that information can be misinterpreted (quite often). So that's why we need to sometimes reset the clocks (with an announcement, clarification, or what have you!)
Take it as feedback -- if you feel concerned. If you dont, just keep it in the back of your mind.
* * *
One last thing. Character integrity is really -really- important. Dont break the integrity of your character, ever! Whether it's taking a scripted quest given by a questgiver that you shouldn't help (i.e. An Halforc Banite who hates the Numinous Order but does the Gnoll Quest, i.e. HELPING THE ORDER 5x day.) Same thing with DM quests. If I make a sending of an old lady asking to take down her cat from the tree for no pay, no gain... don't show up with your evil character unless you have a DAMN good reason for helping her (An angel found your true name and forcing you do commit good acts) ... I know you want those DM XPs and possibility for extras, but you're not helping yourself!
"But Mort, I'm trying to gain ze good guys' trust!" -- Oh I see. Ye Olde Do Goodly acts until the time of betrayal trick... A headache maker.
"But Mort, there is nothing to do and I'm bored, please let me come!" -- I sympathize, but you're doing a disservice to your character. The more integrity your character has, the cooler/interesting he will feel to play. You'll have other opportunities.
I doubt this feedback will even reach the people it is intended for, but it's really intended for all of us... It's easy to bend the integrity of a character, we all did it at one point, I'm certain. But it's something that if you are aware of it, you can better watch yourself. Each time you break the integrity, you're slowly becoming the generic gamer/default character... and becoming that is the sure way to become bored of a character.
I can say I was pleased by the recent prejudice I've faced on my Stargazer.
I'd like to see more prejudice coming from Stargazers as well!
These outsiders are people who have enslaved, hunted, killed for sport, defiled sacred lands, attempted to exterminate, summoned undead...
Need the list go on?
The biggest one to me has always been proportionality. I've always enjoyed playing the occasional brawler PC, but I can guarantee that if you start a fistfight,
As for what PCs "Should hate" that's entirely down to what they hear. Any PC who digs in a little more than "evil witch" would know H'bala was a sorceress, and that could be a reason to fear Bloodmages or sorcerers far more than Wizards. Knowing the Warden=Scrivener Lotheri Sanq could cause mistrust of all Jergalites.
The biggest one to me has always been proportionality. I've always enjoyed playing the occasional brawler PC, but I can guarantee that if you start a fistfight or pull a club, some players will go into full on PVP mode and quaff half a dozen potions, raising the stakes and probably planning to loot anyone they downed to recover the stuff they used. Or they'll respond to a punch with a greataxe. It's rare to see fights that chars brush off rather than use as an excuse to create bigger and bigger conflict and mutter about "rrr rrr I'll get you for that". Seems Ymph has lots of rather thin-skinned adventurers.
On the other hand if every time a mage interferes in an "argument level" fight with a DM present they end up causing 1000GP of DM mandated damage to the furniture, scaling things up to a chugfest or being set upon with extreme force for OMG MAGICS, you start to wonder why you bother. NWN has a rather restricted set of single target damage spells, obviously nonlethal stuff or spells that at least won't wreck inanimate objects. I recall blasting a duel cheat or something with Combust and a PC beating my char down "because you could have set the building on fire oh noes" when I'd chosen a spell deliberately as it couldn't affect nearby placeables. There's a balance between an IC response to magic and the limited selection of attacks a mage can use. Those which can sub someone without property damage are also mostly necromancy, which has its own problems. If Johannes ever scripts up Bigby's Strong Left Hook as a L2 spell for barfights though... :D.
As for what PCs "Should hate" They're new to Ymph, isn't that more down to what they find out. Any PC who digs in a little more than "evil witch" would know H'bala was a sorceress, and that could be a reason to fear Bloodmages or sorcerers. Knowing the Warden=Scrivener Lotheri Sanq could cause mistrust of all Jergalites. They could become convinced the Order were manipulating events to cause the Apocalypse, because they must have their visions come to pass. Not to mention that if your PC's sworn enemies have a prejudice against someone, he might wonder if they're all that bad.
Ebok, if the DMs offered rewards for dead stargazers, that'd only create a "red vs blue" effect. In fact I recently saw an Order NPC suggest running them out of town but flat out refuse to pay any sort of bounty for them as what's the point? There is a giant common enemy of everything living trying to corrupt all of Ymph, and ignoring it to backstab each other assumes 8 Wis all round. "I don't trust the filthy savages, don't let him in/with us/out of sight while we happen to need his help" is far more interesting conflict than "Kill them on sight".
Remember Mort like three years ago when everytime his PCs typed something you thought he might be banging his head against his keyboard randomly before pressing enter?
Now look at him, laying down the real truth flavour with more eloquence and mastery of English than half of you scumbags will ever enjoy.
GG no re.
Also, if any of you manage to get above 1750+ PSR on HoN, I'll consider adding you as a friend and playing with you.
1752 atm but dunno if i wanna play with a noob like u. account is the same as here. picking my valkyrie and heading to the game->
It takes a role-player to play a character's weaknesses when it is convenient, but it takes a bamf to play a character's weaknesses when it makes life more difficult.
Perhaps something that might help is that IMO failing is fun, depending on the situation. I often metagame some aspects in the gameworld to act in such way my character will end up screwed, hopefully in a mess he needs to do something to get out of, or that end having another PC hate him. I've had them speak things that are purposely wrong, as if they were truth (but my PC doesn't know!) to create conflict, and it always ends up with more fun.
DMs won't destroy mistlocke if wedon't destroy H'bala in 2 months. If there is an idiot dude who starts a cruzade against the gazers, it'll just add to the fun, since it will open many posibilities (as long as he/she isn't cheap). So i say encourage him/her.
Egon, I was just making an observation. If you want a Red vs Blue (consistent and acting prejudice that becomes the norm) you need some acting tool that creates the feeling for brand new outta the box adventurers. I have no issues hating on people, in fact I really enjoy heckling people now and then. If you don't want red vs blue, then you get a mixed bag consistently. And sometimes it'll turn up in favor of the savages.
That said, I was informed while working with the team wild to release Hbala to begin with...<_> that stargazers are actually considered Monstrous player characters. You do not need a history between the characters to be legitimate in offing them. It's just like a kobald, only they are not automatically evil.
I should mention: I agree with Mort on every point, and proportionality never seems to mesh in any situation I've ever been involved with. Insult should not = I take your head with my axe. Our combats tend to jump steps, often. Ad for the curse, there could be more information on what the physical signs of the progression actually are. I've seen it go from extremes like parts are falling off, to complete ignorance of any effect outside of itching.
My gazer has a very deep mistrust of the stoopid hoomans, but I wasn't aware that qualified him as a monstrous race. Just keep the hate coming.
It is rather annoying though when you try to be prejudiced and angry towards outsiders as a stargazer when other stargazers are like "STFU you don't know what your saying". Indeed some stargazer PCs can be naive and curious at first but when you see a stargazer that has been on a few months saying it to you it is of great annoyance.
In private conversations, I've said before that it would be good idea for someone (preferably a DM, or at the very least, an experienced player) to sit down and write a roleplay guide for EfU.
The issue that brought this up was when I got my first illithid implant. It turns out that I was expected to role-play something leaking from my ear, and I didn't know that at first, and it wasn't obvious because I recieved the implant though my nose. My question was, "Why can't that be written somewhere in the description for the implant?"
The fact is, the DMs have certain role-play expectations for players, and we the players also have certain expectations of one another. It would be nice to get all this written down in one place. Just something short and sweet regarding each element of the setting, but not so verbose as to completely stifle an individual DM's or PC's imagination.
Player Characters are also not commoners and often are the exception to their race. Just saying, perhaps not all Stargazers or Elves have pure hate inside.
An evil petting zoo?
I don't like it when (esp. high level) PC's walk around stuttering all the time or when they are being absolutely grossed out by certain acts. By the time you hit level 8, you will have killed 1,000 Goblins, 1,400 Orcs, 300 Human bandits etc. Since few of those deaths were mercy kills, I think most of the PCs have seen their share of limbs parting and intestines bursting.
Sounds like the kind of thing that will sufficiently mess up right about anyone to the part where they don't walk around all insecure and easily disgusted by certain acts anymore.
You know... Since we're on this topic.
If Stargazers are savages you obviously should not do the Order of the Zodiac quest.
I believe in unicorns, and also that this topic has been derailed.
Honestly proportionality is the biggest issue IMO. The amount of times I've insulted/punched someone in a street brawl only to be met with instant chugging of potions or drawing a weapon is kind of silly.
wat
Quote from: Divine Intervention;252298Honestly proportionality is the biggest issue IMO.
I agree.
Quote from: Kinslayer988;252139It is rather annoying though when you try to be prejudiced and angry towards outsiders as a stargazer when other stargazers are like "STFU you don't know what your saying". Indeed some stargazer PCs can be naive and curious at first but when you see a stargazer that has been on a few months saying it to you it is of great annoyance.
As the person currently playing a Stargazer who is more accepting of (some) non-Stargazers than some of his brethren, I would like to emphasise that this is totally in-character. As a member of the Steward faction, Ayumu sees the cooperation of the druidic order as being more important than racial conflict, and as a high WIS character, sees the potential for allies in those who support those goals, no matter their race. Ayumu is especially critical of anyone (including Stargazers) who doesn't respect the Stewards, or speak about them as though they have intimate knowledge of their opinions/decisions when they aren't of the Circle.
I would rather this not turn into some kind of OOC assumption that I'm "not playing it right".
Additionally, overall the Stargazers of the Old Ways are a fairly neutral race, with many good tendencies, especially amongst the Order of the Zodiac IIRC. I don't find it surprising that initial mistrust or prejudice against their foreign ways (including cannibalism etc) dissipates if an adventurer has the opportunity to see their actions and talk with them in person.
Why should the druid order cooperate if they don't cooperate towards druidish ends?
Aberrations, planar creatures, undead... none of them are tolerable to a druid.
That includes tieflings and even aasimars.
Quote from: Big Orc Man;252350Why should the druid order cooperate if they don't cooperate towards druidish ends?
Aberrations, planar creatures, undead... none of them are tolerable to a druid.
That includes tieflings and even aasimars.
I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here BOM. When I said "outsiders" in the post above, I meant non-Stargazers.
EDIT: Edited the original post to be clearer!
Then I misinterpreted it!
But the point does stand on its own. You'd be surprised!
Sorry Chez if I insulted!
No insult taken! Just wanted to make sure you were aware that it was all done IC, and not some kind of OOC campaign of mine. Feel free to get annoyed in-character with Ayumu!
I've never played a Stargazer primarily because I've always found it difficult to understand what was expected of them. They come from a very specific culture that is alien to the rest of Faerûn that most of us are familiar with.
I'm not sure how new Stargazer's are introduced into the game (again never having played one), but I think it would be awesome if they could move directly from the starting area into some sort of mist-vision introduction quest. It would be very similar to the mist-vision you receive from entering the sarcophagus in the Dreamers Chapterhouse.
The purpose would be to inform the player about the history of the Stargazers through the eyes of their people. Help them understand exactly WHY they distrust outsiders, and help them get a sense of what it means to be a member of the Stargazer culture.
This may already be in place, having never played one myself I cannot say for certain, but if it isn't - I think it would be extremely helpful.
So, in my mind, the higher your intelligence or wisdom score is the less likely you are to do things without reasons. So what would be your reason to hate stargazers?
You hate the stargazers because they caused the curse? Lets call that a peripheral reason. If you were not around for the fall of the dominion, its not really personal. You could just as likely hate the Netheresse for building the mythallar that brought you there or the Count for his blockade of your escape, or any other series of events.
You believe what you are told, that they are evil savages, cannibals. This is another peripheral reason. The stargazers don't exist anywhere else, so you've never met one. What you are told about them will pail in comparison to your own experiences with them. One finds you hurt along the road, grabs you and bandages you up, you'll probably forget about all the "stupid rumors" you heard in town about them.
You met and know the stargazers, and they've screwed you somehow. This is what I would call an actual reason. I would argue that this is what 95% of racism is. You can't start grouping people into stereotypes until you've interacted with those people. Sure, you can be a xenophobe, but that to me is not racism, especially not escalating to the point of violence. You may mistrust, you may dislike, you may want to simply stay away, but hate is only found in personal experience. They killed your friend, they robbed you, they caused the fall of the dominion (and you were there!), they did soemthing to you. If you want PC's to be racist toward stargazers, then the stargazers need to give them reason for it, by screwing PC's.
You play a low or average intelligence and wisdom character who hates everyone. Actual reason. Go ahead be a huge racist. We love it on the server and it adds depth to the story telling. Maybe you're just evil and want to profit off their enslavement? Also a good reason. There are plenty of good reasons to be racist, but it should be part of a background. You are more likely to hate half-orcs, elves, halflings and other races you have come across in the past then those you've never met. Of course, maybe you hate all the races except your own. That's cool and fun for all involved.
"Racism" doesn't exist in FR.
It's just a normal, accepted part of existence because unlike in real life, the different races in FR ARE substantially different, and some are inherently wicked.
And the Stargazers supposedly releasing doom upon everyone is probably more than just a peripheral reason...
Quote from: Howland;248376I don't think every character, or even a majority of characters, should necessarily have strong opinions about people from Chult, or Calimshan, or Thay, or Cormyr, or whatever. But it's fine and even good if they do.
But I do think it is important that a majority of characters have some kind of strong feelings and assumptions about other races (i.e. elves, dwarves, etc.).
Maybe elves are wondrous creatures to be revered and admired, or maybe they're a dangerous threat.
Maybe you respect halflings for their orderly and good-natured societies, or maybe you've met too many pesky lightfoot adventurer-thieves and distrust all of them.
And so on.
Maybe even you're playing a high-wisdom PC with a lot of experience meeting different races and inclined to judge individuals as individuals, but if so this should be a part of your concept and be somewhat rare.
Never used the word hate, once.
I hope you don't think I was being a pompous dick, just expressing my view. I read this thread with great interest, many good points have been made.