Some would say a vital change is needed. Myself, I've never encountered a problem with Detect Evil that ended a character or made things any more troublesome than a fun challenge. But in the interests of making EfU:M a little more new-player friendly, perhaps it would be a help to introduce some changes to Detect Evil, to make it a little more in line with the PnP rendition.
As it stands, I believe an argument could be made that if a paladin is in an area, an evil character has no choice but to stay away, lest they get tagged by DE. The alternative, using one of several methods to resist DE, may not work if you're not aware a character is a Paladin. It can seem pretty unfair to be blind-sided by that class ability.
So with that in mind, I offer two possible changes:
A - Detect Evil will only affect PCs higher than level 5. This has precedence in PnP, where an evil aura only appears on higher level creatures, since with weaker creatures the aura (or accumulated evil acts) simply aren't strong enough to trigger the divination. Of course, a character who reaches level 6 and then gets lower would still be triggered by Detect Evil, but this simply allows lower-level Evil characters a chance to establish themselves and build of a resource of anti-DE measures before having to battle it out socially.
B - Detect Evil will require concentration, which has a visible outward sign, such as an emote over the Paladin's head, or VFX. It also goes through the same three phases as PnP: first, it detects the presence of evil; second, it displays the number of evil auras; third, it reveals the source of those auras, if still nearby. This will give evil characters a chance to move away which, while still suspicious, is still a bit more fair to otherwise well-concealed characters who accidentally transition into DE spam and get caught.
I don't think these suggestions are fool proof or even necessary, but I'd like to see how the rest of you feel about DE and whether these changes would help or not. And yes, this was triggered by a discussion in #efu, but let's not bring that here.
There's a ubiquitous counter to DE that everyone knows.
a lvl 5 orcussan preist wouldnt be less evil because hes level 5.
Gotta agree with TurboTax. At lvl 5 a necromancer cleric can animate dead. I would say that's evil enough for a paladin to detect.
Give it a cool down of like five minutes and make it noticeable when a paladin attempts to do so. I think their eyes are supposed to glow green or something. >_> I find it lame when a paladin just walks around spamming it.
It's not lame.
Quote from: 9lives;254070It's not lame.
Spamming evil radar as you stroll about is pretty lame. You should have a legitimate reason to use it.
Evil has many advantages anyway and I have never seen a pc totally ruined by DE.
Being a Paladin is a legitimate reason.
Honestly I wouldn't mind a concentration check of some sort and have a resting period in between so a Paladin can't spam it.
Quote from: Knight Of Pentacles;254071Spamming evil radar as you stroll about is pretty lame. You should have a legitimate reason to use it.
You clearly do not understand what being a paladin is all about.
It is a REQUIREMENT that you spam DE, it isn't lame. If you aren't spamming DE (its supposed to be an -aura- ICly, wherein you detect the presence of evil within a certain range) then you open yourself up to potentially assisting someone who is, in fact, evil, which goes against the entire premise of playing a paladin.
In short, it isn't lame, its encouraged. How lame it is or isn't is a product of the resultant RP once the evil person is detected, not a derivative of spamming the ability.
I agree with Caddies. The RP is the critical part. Paladins need not invariably go 'ZOMG THOU ART EVIL' as a standardised reaction. They might quietly make note of it and warn others later. Or they might tell the detectee that he/she is on a self-destructive path and should consider change it. They might recoil in horror or go cold and standoffish. (I remember one paladin I rather liked who was shy and young reacting with fear and worry for the person detected evil on.)
If there is anything that worries me about Detect Evil it is that it is sort of too... binary. You are either evil or not. It doesn't matter if you are an Orcusian with an Evil rating of rock bottom or if you are someone who has been struggling and has an evil rating only just a smidgen away from Neutral, in either case you are still Evil. Not sure if anything can be done about this, though, or even if it is worth worrying about, it might just be me nitpicking again.
If your alignment is Evil and no one knows you are evil IC, perhaps that alignment is not for you.
The joys of moral absolutism.
Remember this is efu. Our detect evil and our paladins here are different from pnp. This is just how it works in this setting and the playstyle of them needs to be adjusted to match.
I just feel the need to say that the counter to DE isn't really feasible until you get to about 6th level because the duration is way too short, and even then a single long conversation in a public place can mean you get pinged. Potions are absolutely no good for this outside of a rather quick encounter.
That said, I don't have a problem with DE on EfU. The thing a visual animation would likely do would be to cause the paladins use it a bit more discretely, as in they'd only use the ability before heading out with people to see who might be evil, or to see who they might trust in a certain situation. They maybe wouldn't just spam it standing in the public square at every passersby.
I personally don't see a problem with it either way, spamming it is unnecessary in order to keep true to your vows, since it can simply be used it when the proper situation arises and the paladin needs to know. However, there's no problem with spamming it either, since it's considered an active ability on EfU, which is different from how DE is in PnP...but then we're not playing PnP.
If it did have a visual cue it might inspire people to (oh, the horror!) actually roleplay the ability. That suggestion has been flamed and shot down so many times in the past though already.
Quote from: 9lives;254064There's a ubiquitous counter to DE that everyone knows.
The players? Maybe. But what about characters? Not every character is supposed to know about it. Wouldn't that be metagaming?
I currently play as a paladin, and DE bothers me, honestly. I only use it because I must. I find it a cheap way to ruin evil pc's plots.
Don't metagame. You have no idea other than that person is "evil". What it means is a whole other story. You do not know what they have done, what they are doing, or what their intentions are, other than by finding it out IC. Detect evil is as it's meant to be, in my opinion. Players are responsible for playing the class properly.
Some paladins may have be extremely wary of evil people, and warn everyone around them, but they still cannot fall into slandering without having something to base their words on. They cannot judge without proof. They cannot lie, cheat or use cheap tricks.
The class demands a lot from player. Mechanically they must have that ability as that's how paladins were made to be. They detect evil, and it's the first step for them.. Perhaps to keep their eyes open. They still cannot jump on that guy and slice his head off just for that. Paladin may very well cause problems for evil plots, that's their job, but it is also a class that easily gets left out if these evil people are more desired/useful in the world around us.
To common man, evil and good are not always so black and white when it comes to survival.
Caddies FTW, nails home yet again.
DE doesnt ruin someones plot, if they are playing an evil character, they shouldnt be acting good, and if they do. They would have some BS excuse to why they are evil or something. DE in my opinion is a great tool for a paladin. As, 1.. It allows you to stay true to you vows, 2.. It protects you from walking around with an evil person and then getting killed or something, 3.. It doesnt need to be role played, other than if you are put into a situation where you are asked to go out on some adventure with an evil person, or helping them.
Quote from: TurboTax;254117DE doesnt ruin someones plot, if they are playing an evil character, they shouldnt be acting good, and if they do. They would have some BS excuse to why they are evil or something.
There is also the case of an inherently good or even neutral aligned character who was forced into an act of evil. Which invalidates your point about "shouldn't be acting good." Characters can possess complexity you know, there should be room to grow!
Father Michael was RPed horribly.
Quote from: Calixto;254110The players? Maybe. But what about characters? Not every character is supposed to know about it. Wouldn't that be metagaming?
I currently play as a paladin, and DE bothers me, honestly. I only use it because I must. I find it a cheap way to ruin evil pc's plots.
You may as well say that your PC does not know that Magic Weapon will make your weapon Magic, then.
Quote from: Calixto;254110The players? Maybe. But what about characters? Not every character is supposed to know about it. Wouldn't that be metagaming?
I currently play as a paladin, and DE bothers me, honestly. I only use it because I must. I find it a cheap way to ruin evil pc's plots.
You may as well say that your PC does not know that Magic Weapon will make your weapon magic, then.
lol ninelives double posted.
This old chestnut, again.
Quote from: Winston Martin;254089If your alignment is Evil and no one knows you are evil IC, perhaps that alignment is not for you.
Quote from: HaveLuteWillTravel;254125Father Michael was RPed horribly.
Good point.
Quote from: 9lives;254164You may as well say that your PC does not know that Magic Weapon will make your weapon Magic, then.
Maybe I expressed my point incorrectly.
What I really mean is... Supposing every evil pc knows paladins can DE, know how DE works, and supposing every evil pc considers himself evil (which is not always the case);
Why would they all know a PfG pot/spell protects them from DE? Obviously they would know it grants some kind of protection, but they wouldn't know what the protection is, exactly. Just as nobody is supposed to know a PfE grants immunity from mind spells, bonus to ac and saving throws unless they have ranks in lore, are a spellcaster or were told so by someone else.
Anyway, as it was told before, it is rather unpractical. Eventually the pc will be known to be evil.
There should be other means to avoid DE, like having a high bluff... Unless it's already implemented.
There is. It's called applying for immunity to DE.
The only thing I really think that Detect Evil needs is a moment of concentration. It's like that in PnP. It is silly that a paladin can walk around with a /c detect evil macro and click the button repeatedly without even the slightest moment of focus.
Too much thought and effort going into something that isn't broken here.