Totally selfish reasoning, sure. But I think Bards should have either Arcane Eye or Scrying. Magic tricks and what have yous of spying seems very Bardish to me. And because of the limited spell options, I don't think every bard would take them.
I don't know about spying. Bards seem the sort of people who would much rather be there in person, than see it from afar through a crystal ball.
Quote from: Twilight's Song;254794I don't know about spying. Bards seem the sort of people who would much rather be there in person, than see it from afar through a crystal ball.
Or that the bard, who due to other circumstances, cannot be present, but has the ability to view events that are passing by for the sake of a story!
Bards are really more about supporting your allies and debuffing the enemy.
Quote from: Jagged;254833Bards are really more about supporting your allies and debuffing the enemy.
Wrong
Bards are the true jack of all trades, rogue skills, combat prowess similar to a druid, cleric, or rogue, ability to stealth....(and well at that!)
However, a bard's spells lean toward illusion, though divination also plays a common role in spell selection. I can easily see a bard projecting himself through arcane eye to scout ahead to look for events of interest.
A bard is first and foremost a story teller. If my earlier bard had had acces to a spying spell, he would have used it to learn of some of the gossip unavailable to him.
Also my mage, who spends a lot of time healing allies in fights, should totally have a Heal spell. And my fighter, who inflicts a lot of damage, should be able to cast Firebrand 3 times a day.
...really, are you serious? If you want a bard that can do spying, that is what your stealth skills are for.
A bard is a spellcaster, why not give him spells that complement his natural abilities?
And your examples are not at all rational. Mages aren't supposed to be healers it isn't part of their natural abilities nor their concept, that's just EFU's tendency of dropping healing items usable by anyone: clerics are supposed to be healers and guess who has the healing spells on D&D? Fighters should have a way of dealing damage, seeing they are the ones with the concept of dealing non-magical damage and oh! they do! better than anyone else in the long-run.
So yes, i'm serious. Some magical spying aid for bards would be awsome.
Bards don't need spying magic, because they have actual spying skills.
Seriously. If a Bard could cast scrying, why would they have stealth as a class skill?
I wouldn't give them scry. But arcane eye sounds good.
Neither sound reasonable at all. Bards are not diviners under any circumstance. If you want to spy on people with a bard--use your stealth.
I do not think it would be hideously unbalancing for bards to have some sort of divination spell. Nor would it not make sense or be unreasonable. They're spellcasters after all. Make it a high level spell. That way the bard can't multiclass and get it- in case any of you are worried about some badass bard/Barbarian who can scry your actions.
The argument that the stealth skills = Scrying is kind of ridiculous. Scrying is way better. As is the claim that Stealth=Spying.
Spying is infiltration.
Stealth is sneaking past a group of guards or a jungle cat.
In any case, Scrying is good for leads, and isn't really the only legwork involved in a hardcore investigation.
Bards in PnP can use scrying. So, at least in their original source, they do have spying abilities.
At what level?
It's a level 3 spell for bards.
The creators of the bards class seem to think that they should have more means to spy than with stealth.
So the stealth = only reasonable means of spying argument is invalid.
Arguments aside about if a divination spy spell is bardish or not...I'd like to point out that if it remained a lvl 4 spell, only lvl 10 bards would have access to it. And they would have to forgo some other pretty powerful spells (imp invis, hold monster, war cry, etc) in order to take it. For me, this in no way would imbalance the game.
Course, I'd prefer it as a lvl 3!
There wont be any new spells.