I can think of a good half dozen cases recently where PCs have ran out of Old Stones, ganked someone in the middle of town and been gone in 10 seconds with NPC defenders breaking off and PCs knowing that chasing them would result in NPC counterattacks. Old Stones is so close to the Market and square you can buff with everything up to Haste before stepping out the door, and not worry about it wearing off beforehand or anyone hearing you chugging. Then it's a short trip back to a protected area, even quicker than a fight in the Warden's district was. Ambushing someone in the middle of the Docks or Ziggurat was ballsy as you were a decent way from a safe spot and there were NPCs and dispel wards that could catch you on the way. Here, there's not enough space for a chase because Mistlocke's so compact you're literally around the corner from a hideout. We'll not see another epic running battle like when the Bhaal cult got chased around half of Nebezzdos after a narrowly failed attack, and that's a great shame.
My suggestion is to make Old Stones less of a safe spot to run to (with Murdertown or Sis Liman better for that), and more of a place where the destitute or callous NPCs keep their heads down and stay out of other people's fights, or even have a negative attitude towards bringing trouble to the place like the Stargazer Village had.
That would allow it to remain a good place for illegal plots and schemes, but let the consequences of PVP spill over into it and a fugitive to need to fight off pursuers or find a way to really lose them. After all it's a fairly small slum, not like the Docks was with its paramilitary gang of defenders. There's not much reason for NPCs to risk themselves over someone else's conflict, even if they would tar and feather a lone Musterman who decides to take a stroll there. I'd even say it would be cool if the main floor was a Free PVP area except for Grosse's, with the way in to the Restaurant being a conversation transition so it wouldn't work in combat. It'd allow for more internal conflict and brawling, in fact generally more engaging PVP as opposed to ganks.
Giving grosse a paranoid door like the Stew Shop would be great. The lack of locked doors in Old Stones is somewhat concerning giving the proximity of both Bilby's and the feeling of a criminal element.
Then Old Stones turns more into like what the Wardens used to be. Limited/free PvP except a few areas with NPCs with a lot of conflict over things like "Turf", taxing, and more.
Then the lower or upper levels could still be used for PC faction HQ's/etc.
Would be a lovely change.
To be honest, with all the intense criminal activity coming out of Old Stones recently, I'm a bit shocked that no one has decided to try and blow up the entrance to the tower.
After all, if the entrance to the tower is destroyed, it largely solves the problem presented here.
Though, I also agree with RWG's suggestion.
Nah.
The Old Stones are cursed so the Muster doesn't go there. The PCs and NPCs set up shop there primarily for that reason.
Neither group wants that to change. The Old Stones won't be apathetic to intrusions, though if one PC pushes far enough for the Muster to press back despite the curse, then action might be taken against that PC by the Old Stones NPCs who don't like their status quo upset.
The option still exists for PCs to ignore the curse and standing orders to go inside after PCs, but with the consequences for a Muster PC getting felled in the Stones being just as dire as if a criminal PC got caught, and captured by the Muster.
But NPC support in the Stones isn't overdone except when people do....extraordinarily stupid things, like announce a posse being formed to go into the Old Stones to wreck the criminal PC in retaliation. That'd be just as stupid as a criminal PC announcing he's going to go assasinate a specific guard in broad daylight an hour before he does it.
The NPC support for both areas won't change as it stands unless PCs cause drastic changes.
If you want to push for a change to NPC attitudes, then do it ICly.
PvP rules won't change for the area. If a DM was supervising one of the 'ganks' you described in town, then they'll be available to supervise a retaliatory action. PCs who perform one of those ganks are usually required to stay on an extended period of time to give PCs time to form up and react against them.
There's a curse O_0? There's nothing in the Muster forums about it or mentioned by NPCs as standing orders, nor is there any IC sign of PCs going to Old Stones ending up cursed either. Honestly, this is the first I've heard about it. All I've seen is a sign that looked to be written by gangsters.
The problem isn't PCs attacking without DM oversight, it's that there's so little distance between the two main areas that an attack's a lot simpler to pull off as you have a very short distance to make a getaway. On the other hand in EFU:A if you jumped someone in the Market or inn, you'd have three zones to cross and a bunch of NPCs before you got to the Docks or the Squat. There's no space any more between the lawful side of town and the slum. There's less space for things to go wrong and turn into a battle rather than a hit. Instead we've seen a lot of tit for tat raids and counter-raids compared to the old days when rushing someone in the middle of an area stood a risk of a PC pile-on before you could escape and it wasn't the go-to option. Or to run into unexpected opposition from someone going through the Wardens.
As Meldread says, making Oldstones only accessible through the tunnels would help a bit at the downside of caster PCs not having anything to do in a chase. Yes, it's worth working on IC, but the exact same thing was done via DM to the Docks in EfU:A for similar IC reasons.
First I heard of a curse. I always assumed the reasoning behind it was simply a lack of support/resources on the Muster's end.
I agree that the best way to change anything is through actions IG. There are enough entrances into Old Stones to allow for retaliatory attacks that dont turn into transition ganks.
I do agree it's very easy to buff up and go to town, but one should keep in mind that it goes both ways. Just take the leap.
Old Stones has a book shelf that weeps blood. Sounds cursed to me.
Its a pretty well known fact that the Old Stones are cursed and that's why the Muster doesn't go there.
Any other details will have to be discovered in game.
don't you people talk to NPCs
There have been numerous times when ghosts and such interrupted events and messed with PCs in the Old Stones.
You're complaining about how easy it is to buff up and attack people in the market because of the close proximity?
Do you realize the same applies for people who may want to gank criminal PCs? Dumb suggestion as always from Egon.
Curse is widely known, I found out on my first day on EFU:A on a PC who never went into Old Stones, from another PC.
Never heard of the curse before this thread. As for the suggestion, it can be handled in game I think.
QuoteCurse is widely known, I found out on my first day on EFU:A on a PC who never
went into Old Stones, from another PC
Is it? Like the others I've never heard of any curse.
QuoteDo you realize the same applies for people who may want to gank criminal PCs?
Dumb suggestion as always from Egon.
Its the same as when on EFU:A the Docks had a direct transition to the Ziggurat.
When there is only one transition, its very hard to chase someone and much easier to attack (for both sides).
For example, when my PC recently chased an attacking PC into Old Stones, within seconds of transitioning I along with the chasing group was being required IG by an NPC (Grosse) to "shealth our weapons".
This stymied our chase.
Grosse made it perfectly clear that we would be in trouble if we ran about Old Stones with weapons drawn and enchanted. In this instance the Old Stones were certainly "safe" for the attacker. The moment that the attacker arrived back there he had a number of seen and unseen NPC's on his side.
I completely agree that the same would be the case for the Muster PC's invisibily ganking someone in Old Stones and running off to the Town Square.
As a tweak to the original suggestion maybe a "no-mans land" between the areas would be helpful, just like it was excellent for EFU:A with the Wardens Areas?
On EFU:A the chasers (of any faction) had a chance to PVP across an area that was uninhabited. Also if you were caught buffing in this no-mans land you were fair game.
At the moment you can buff-up 2 inchs from the transition where your victim will be on the other side, but no opposing side is going to be able to attack you as you do so, unless they get a DM.
Perhaps a set of "winding tunnels" as you first enter Old Stones before you get to the populated area would work at each entrance to the Old Stones?
A small area in between would likely be excellent. Perhaps with a portcullis on each side that takes a few rounds to open, and requires transition checks during combat (and is reflected on the opposing side with emotes / functioning doors!) to prevent the quick transition running.
I've never heard of any curse
Transitionruns are lame. Some people have slow connections and may take as long as 60 full seconds to transition, if not even longer. This gives the attacking PC a bigger, and bigger lead per transition they go through.
Have all doors lock instantly as PvP fires off in town.
I've played on this server about three months and didn't know the Old Stones is supposed to be cursed. I guess I missed that NPC conversation.
I always though "no muster in Old Stones" was an OOC control enforced by NPCs and that players tacitly adhere to out of respect for players of evil PCs who need a place to grow/plot/plan.
Just to be clear, I have pursued IG methods to block access, and been denied by specific NPC orders. it's not for lack of trying that there's access.
As for the argument about NPCs who live in Old Stones being opposed to buffed up ganksquads coming in, what's wrong with that Yalta? The same goes for if you want to gank someone in the village.
All I see in this thread is whining from people who ordinarily play reactionary PCs who are bummed they can't do what they usually do and form up a ganksquad and just FD anyone being dynamic and attempting to change the status quo.
A few less insults would be wise to consider for those who wish to continue posting here.
I am surprised that a lot of you don't seem to know that the villagers find Old Stones cursed. So I'll try to make this a bit more clearer in the module.
Old Stones is an ancient tower shied by the majority of the Mistlocke population. Its residents are primarily those suffering noticeably of the Withering, refugees or exiles that have found nowhere else to live and dare not brave a wilderness life, volunteers that have chosen a life there and members of a more chaotic inclination that would be welcome nowhere else in the community. The people who live there tend to form into tightly knit groups that fend for their own interests and is at constant conflict with the rest that may be threatening them, or loners who try to stay out of it all. They don't have an interest in the rest of Mistlocke and Mistlocke prefers the people of Old Stones to remain where they are (or have made the efforts to place them there). Its residents are after their own interests and handle situations their own way.
When people go there in blazing enchantments and weapons bared, it is not a reaction Us vs Mistlocke but a perceived threat to an individual group's territory/dealings when NPCs make it clear the PCs are unwanted there. Grosse, like Scabbardjelly Jack, would protest against weapons unsheathed and a gang of what seem like brigands enter the restaurant/inn. Warbands prowling Old Stones looking for trouble will find it, just like the Muster would react to anything similar happening in the rest of the village. Otherwise, the population tends to be extremely apathetic to who else chose to make Old Stones his home or groups passing through.
The increase of criminality and what seems to have goaded this suggestion is the actions of PCs chosing to live there and embrace that manner of conflict. It will flux on PC initiative and you have all the resources you need at your disposal to solve it as you see best. What applies for people going out of Old Stones applies for you and each will require a DM overseeing. This will not change.
The villagers of Mistlocke have lived with the fear of Old Stones, not for its less savory elements but because of the curse that exist there. While it is not common, strange occurrences tend to happen in the old tower that cannot readily be explained, or corpses found in the dark where no one seems to live. The Muster does not set foot inside because if not the curse or the residents that are wildly antagonistic to any Musterman's presence (perceived threat to business) get them, the tower itself is loose and collapsed passages not uncommon.
Going to lock this thread.