EFUPW Forums

This thread (http://www.escapefromundeath.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26130&highlight=werecat) details werecat abilities and the poignant question of why it received -4 strength- the consensus seemed that no one knew why.

I propose removing the strength penalty. Cats are muscular creatures and It's insulting to think that a rat can be stronger than a cat.

I found this  (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19775886/Lycanthrope_werecat) which might explain a possible mix up.

Admittedly, I would be okay with the DMs changing my animal form to a foot tall house cat :3

I think it's more a case of a mix up in animal forms. It should be a small cat, not a panther. My werecat had -6 strength (stargazer penalty/bonuses stack) and I was absurdly powerful due to the dexterity bonus, so I don't see the strength drain as much of an issue.

Granted I would say wererat could use to lose some of its strength in kind, its a bit powerful for something based on, well a rat...

Edit: Thinking about it, I recall being told it isn't possible to modify the size of a player model, so the animal form may be a panther due to engine limitations as it is.

Also for those who don't know. Werecats gain weapon finesse for free and by level 6 have great-axe claws which use their dex to determine ab, not strength. They can easily have enough stealth to be completely undetectable even with powerful divination magics. (Mine sat somewhere near the late 50's when buffed) In turn without even investment they can have incredibly high spot and listen and ungodly saving throws (my pure rogue had a will save of 14). 10/+1 dr and 5/+2 dr to boot.

I would say their low strength is probably the only draw back to the race.

The only real issue I have with the -4 STR is that it effectively lowers your weight limit/encumbrance rate by that much (the -2 damage lost from the STR penalty is easily made up by the 2d6 damage). I carry 30 lbs less than my base form is capable of because changing to were/animal form would cut down my movement speed by half.

Prowling around for 1 or 2 hours at a time, using a bull's strength every fifteen minutes can get expensive.

Yeah, weres could use some form of drawback, they're one of the few monsters without a loss of any stats and tend to out survive any other sort of monster race. Even without counting the mechanics Naga states, they have the RP advantage. They can get a few levels before showing themselves, and can take ages to be located as what they are. Even then you still have to find and beat them, no easy task. Back when  they only had the 10/1 DR at least PCs could often have an item around  to be able to hurt the were PC.

I've always thought werecreatures should be running Will save penalties on account of their feral nature, not big bonuses. It'd give them some sort of weakness to be able to pin them down with.

Quote from: CatScratchFever;259676The only real issue I have with the -4 STR is that it effectively lowers your weight limit/encumbrance rate by that much (the -2 damage lost from the STR penalty is easily made up by the 2d6 damage). I carry 30 lbs less than my base form is capable of because changing to were/animal form would cut down my movement speed by half.

Prowling around for 1 or 2 hours at a time, using a bull's strength every fifteen minutes can get expensive.

Fun fact the werecat models run speed is slightly faster than pc movement unless they are barbarians/rangers. Even if you encumber easily you make up for it by being able to run faster than most.

If you -really- need to travel somewhere with something that will encumber you, you have the option of going there in stealth completely undetectable, albeit at a much slower pace.

As for expense, I'm not sure I want to outline how easy it would be for an evil lycantrophy to cover his/her expenses <_<

I'd agree the strength drawback makes little sense and should be removed, especially if none of the other werebeasts have that.

Something does seem out of whack here. Although, the strength of these lycans on offense and defense considered... I'd suggest that the other forms be given a downside as well. :/ Rather then making something very strong, stronger.

They have a major downside as it is, like many other monster PCs do. The strength reduction never did make much sense to me, but in the end I think they are all well balanced when you consider their level adjustment and RP restrictions.

Removed the strength penalty and set the creature weapon to 1d10?

i hate the mentality that all subraces and classes must be balanced and the same, also i think thats werecats are one of the few lycanthropes that can be neutral and good aligned which might have something to do with the added negatives.

It is less to do with balance, plum. A were-panther (which is what they are in efu) is not a were-cat, which is what they are stat'ed as. Mind you, they're powerful regardless so it's not a big deal.

The logical point of a dire-rat being stronger then a panther is lol however.

I fail to see how +2 dmg is game breaking when they already receive upward to +4 AB from their Dex Bonus. It isn't going to make them any stronger.

Edit: I am just pointing out how ridiculous it is that a PANTHER- one of the strongest felines out there, is weaker than a dire rat.

I think the point of contention was weight carried, not damage.

Quote from: Ebok;259950It is less to do with balance, plum. A were-panther (which is what they are in efu) is not a were-cat, which is what they are stat'ed as. Mind you, they're powerful regardless so it's not a big deal.

The logical point of a dire-rat being stronger then a panther is lol however.

Werecats are werecats, werepanthers would have different stats than werecat entirely. Most of the big cat lycantrophies gain massive amounts of strength e.g tiger +6~8 <_<

So... does the -4 STR reflect a werehousecat or a werepanther?

Leave as is. Werecats do not take down entire parties alone for no reason.
 
The -4 strength is flavour to reflect a less brutal werecreature compared to boars and wolves.
 
I have cats they are as weak as shit.

Quote from: Yalta;259982I have cats they are as weak as shit.

You have a panther and call it weak? Sorry, bad joke.

We should perhaps focus on exactly what type of cat you are a were of. If you are a weretiger, then you are likely pretty badass when it comes to strength.. If you are a were-housecat... likely not so much.

I think the current were-cat is based on the panther... So let's look at the panther in basic, unmodified NWN [hide=Panther]http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Panther

Challenge rating: 2 (//%22http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Challenge_rating%22)
    Saves     fortitude (//%22http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Fortitude%22)  5   reflex (//%22http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Reflex%22)     7   will (//%22http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Will%22)       2  Size: medium
        Abilities     strength (//%22http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Strength%22)  16   dexterity (//%22http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Dexterity%22)  19   constitution (//%22http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Constitution%22)  15   intelligence (//%22http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Intelligence%22)  3   wisdom (//%22http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Wisdom%22)  12   charisma (//%22http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Charisma%22)  6 [/hide] As you can see, the panther has 16 str. I don't remember exactly what the were-stats are, but 16 strength means it is pretty damn high above John Standard.

I think, given that a werecat is most likely to be based on dexterity (given that it gets pretty decent bonuses to it and weaponfinesse for free) that the lack of loss in carrying capacity induced by the -4 STR isn't really gamebreaking at all. Given that the dexterity is likely always going to be higher than the strength, there is no gain in AB and +2 damage in flat combat is not really something I think will decide a battle.

TSS

I think what people are forgetting is that the sub-race is were~CAT~ not werepanther. Wererat is not weregerbal and werewolf is not weregermanshepard. The panther animal form is simply due to engine limitations, you can't make pc forms smaller.

Quote from: TheImpossibleDream;259997I think what people are forgetting is that the sub-race is were~CAT~ not werepanther. Wererat is not weregerbal and werewolf is not weregermanshepard. The panther animal form is simply due to engine limitations, you can't make pc forms smaller.

I think Hyrsicator Snugglepuss might disagree!

Could the Rakshasha model work? Is there a rakshasha model?

I just think that shifting into hybrid form and becoming encumbered is dumb.

Wizards can polymorph into CHILDREN, and not suffer strength reductions so that they can at least still walk/run.

Making the creature weapon 1d10 damage and leaving the strength modifer at +0 will remove the encumberance and leave you with virtually the same damage.

As previously stated werecat is like a bobcat or lynx, not a panther. Efu as practice rules what you see is what you get. What we see is a panther. I do believe that this should be taken into consideration by the DM team for this reason alone.

Quote from: Ebok;260007As previously stated werecat is like a bobcat or lynx, not a panther. Efu as practice rules what you see is what you get. What we see is a panther. I do believe that this should be taken into consideration by the DM team for this reason alone.

Good point that also reflects on a question I asked in the DM Q&A thread regarding wildshapes. I absolutely agree with Ebok here, and while I can agree that lifting the strength to 16 would perhaps be woefully OP, I still strongly believe the -4 should be removed.

Animal shape may look like panther, however the hybrid shape has black fur with brown stripes, a white belly and a fussy greyish white patch on its head. I've never heard of any big cat with those kind of marks, seen plenty of regular old house cats that looked a lot like that though.

Quote from: TheImpossibleDream;260012Animal shape may look like panther, however the hybrid shape has black fur with brown stripes, a white belly and a fussy greyish white patch on its head. I've never heard of any big cat with those kind of marks, seen plenty of regular old house cats that looked a lot like that though.

And stands as tall as a human. If the middle creature is man-sized, it reaffirms the panther far more then a kitten. I would also like to point out that it is the extreme that determines the creature, not the hybrid. Example:

Human + Wolf = Werewolf
Human + Dire Bat = Werebat (gargoyle model)

The were-cat race is taken directly out of one of the core books, yet we lack sufficient representation for it. What you see is what you get. It's a were-panther.

Werecats are somewhat more lame than the other lycanthropes. The fact they are weaker brings them some charisma as players who want to play them usually have a good idea/concept regarding them and are not strictly being drawn for their power, which makes their weakness a positive difference for roleplayers.

Quote from: Ebok;260016And stands as tall as a human. If the middle creature is man-sized, it reaffirms the panther far more then a kitten. I would also like to point out that it is the extreme that determines the creature, not the hybrid. Example:

Human + Wolf = Werewolf
Human + Dire Bat = Werebat (gargoyle model)

The were-cat race is taken directly out of one of the core books, yet we lack sufficient representation for it. What you see is what you get. It's a were-panther.

If we want to get technical, you cannot even BE a werepanther. You can however be a werecougar, wereleopard, werejaguar, but not a werepanther as panther is a term used to describe black variants of the aforementioned cats. The panther itself is not one specific cat.

Also the stats on the cat shape are abominable. Doesn't even come close to the jungle panther or even druid panther shape.

I'm sure we all got the point.