I've played a couple of main PCs so far with access to Stoneskin (a Good Domain cleric and a Wizard) and I've found it considerably more useful for the Cleric, as with the lowered duration, Improved Invisibility outpowers it on the Wizard by having no cap on the damage it effectively prevents. This becomes rapidly apparent in quests where you face a lot of attacks at once like Wild Orcs and Vrazdn.
Now, I'm not saying by any meant that Stoneskin is useless, but the time reduction basically makes it more like a powerful short duration (due to dmg cap), Ghostly Visage to throw on a meleer.
The PnP duration's 10 min/level, so it wasn't cut to be in line with that, and the orginal duration's an hour/level, so in both cases it's like "wizard barkskin", the spell you keep up in a hostile area for defense, in this case, to have a long lasting ablative buffer against an ambush, the favoured mage-killing tactic of say, Goblin Assassins. However the only PC I ever saw keeping it up was Isania Symbaern, who had access to l5 Spellslots to Extend it with.
So could it be rolled back to a duration that does allow it to serve its purpose as a long-duration "safety net" spell to allow purely offensive casting to be more on even terms, risk to effectiveness wise with "buff and invis"? A good example's Wild Orcs 2, where an offensive mage can be really handy, but it's not worth the risk of *Spoiler* induced assassination compared to just Extend Invising through the whole thing. Also, why was the duration nerfed to begin why? I'm curious.
You're not considering how good it can be in PVP. Imp Invis is better, but wizards being able to keep Stoneskin up all the time while just wandering around would be overpowered, I think.
Actually my main thought about it was exactly that, but with the conclusion "would have a chance" as opposed to "would be OP". That use is exactly what Stoneskin's meant to be used for. Protection to give you a chance to fire a Hold or run, because you don't have a fighty class's HP or AC to avoid a first strike, or the ability to strike back at an attacker like them unless you rigged for PVP.
The original version has a long duration (so you can have it up most of the time) but a damage cap (it won't last long against a concerted assault, so you'd better use the time it's giving you)
I'm not in favor of this. There are lots of spell that might need tweaking imo, but stoneskin is not one of them.
10 damage reduction, even for a short while, is really neat. No one said a wiz. had to choose between improv. inv. and stoneskin: both on one pc work even better.
If you want to have long lasting damage protection, get extended blur, or reach lvl9 and extend stoneskin.
Yes. No permanently stone-skinned wizards, please. The duration is cut down so it is used at strategic times and not 100% of the time, similarly to other big 4th circle spells.
The reasons are PvP and PvE balance.
Quote from: Egon the Monkey;100857Actually my main thought about it was exactly that, but with the conclusion "would have a chance" as opposed to "would be OP". That use is exactly what Stoneskin's meant to be used for. Protection to give you a chance to fire a Hold or run, because you don't have a fighty class's HP or AC to avoid a first strike, or the ability to strike back at an attacker like them unless you rigged for PVP.
This is totally the reason why I'd like to see it.
All a meleer needs to do to kill a wizard is use AB enhancing buffs, drink a potion of invis, find the wizard and attack first. Low AC combined with Low HP pretty much means you're subdued on the first or second attack, which means you're going to be subdued / killed in the first round.
Things like Stoneskin are designed to give a Wizard a fighting chance. The problem with the Stoneskin duration, IMO, was when it was applied to others as a buff.
Give Stoneskin it's old duration back and then make it like Blur. It's self only when cast as a spell, but can be brewed into potions or crafted into wands.
You can make stoneskin wands
actually the cast on self thing like blur maybe worth considering and maybe make it 2 turns / level like darkfire and flame weapon....
but not sure its number one prioirty of the DM team.
Wizards really do not need an increase in power. They already get the option to buff people and invis through quests, to sneak around the island where most other classes can't go safely, top-notch ganking potential, and a high level of versatility in roles compared to other classes.
There is also the consideration that any increase in duration for stoneskin makes clerics even more powerful, since a good number of them will have access to stoneskin.
What is your point Thomas? Unless you thought he didn't know that a stoneskin wand could be made. The cost of the wands alone makes it worth putting the duration on and if they allowed potions, those would cost enough to not make it overpowered either. I am for Stoneskin duration being lengthened, even if it is not permanent until the dr is eaten up.
I'd prefer it kept how it is, a strategic decision rather than a casual blanket to be put up by a wizard (or cleric) as soon as he's rested.
What about... lowering the amount of damage Stoneskin can take before collapsing to allow for a time extension? It reduces its usefulness for wild melees, while turning it into more of a "second chance" spell in case of ambush.
If that seems like too much of a game-changer as an across-the-board change, what about a feat that casters can blow one of their bonus feats on to effect the change? If the caster has the feat, they will always cast the collapse from less/available longer version, with no going back. The feat can even have prerequisites, like Spell Focus: Abjuration and maybe X ranks in Spellcraft.
It shouldn't make wizards more powerful - just different from what they are, currently, and at a price.
Level 7 wizards can generally cast 2 of them a day. Once the second one runs out I'm pretty sure you can rest and just re-cast it if you really wanted to.
@efuexecutioner
At l7 you'll get just 14 minutes of Stoneskin total (half the rest timer) at the cost of both your highest level spell slots.
@caddies
Why? A lot of Druids do exactly that with Barkskin. It's entirely possible to do a similar shorter duration trick with Blur if you have Extend Spell, but a long lasting "second chance armor" is what the spell is for.
@shifting
L4 potions crafting would sent consumable bloat through the roof...
Yeah, either of Aldrick's or Scotty's suggestions would work. Imp invis remains the weapon of choice for buffing others for long fights, and Stoneskin gets usable as it originally was.
And to everyone, remember that this wouldn't be an increase in power over usual, but the removal of a *decrease* in power specific to EfU. The removal of combative familiars and changes like this and Hold Person lead to wizards either being a very safe class to play by resorting to buffing and either invising or hanging back doing nothing, or very risky if you play them actively.
@efuexecutioner
At l7 you'll get just 14 minutes of Stoneskin total (half the rest timer) at the cost of both your highest level spell slots.
@caddies
Why? A lot of Druids do exactly that with Barkskin. It's entirely possible to do a similar shorter duration trick with Blur if you have Extend Spell, but a long lasting "second chance armor" is what the spell is for.
@shifting
L4 potions crafting would sent consumable bloat through the roof...
Yeah, either of Aldrick's or Scotty's suggestions would work. Imp invis remains the weapon of choice for buffing others for long fights, and Stoneskin gets usable as it originally was.
And to everyone, remember that this wouldn't be an increase in power over usual, but the removal of a *decrease* in power specific to EfU. The removal of combative familiars and changes like this and Hold Person lead to mages either being a very safe class to play by resorting to buffing and either invising or hanging back doing nothing, or very risky if you play them actively.
It's always odd to play a wizard on another server where you can feel the equal of other classes, not someone who can blast entire squads to smoking craters and summon demons but can be pushed around by anyone who knows you've no change of prepping offensive spells for a good while or resisting any attack.
Or, revert wiz spell to normal, and make wiz application only...
The spell was changed for a reason, and works fine as it is.
Quote from: Letsplayforfun;100935Or, revert wiz spell to normal, and make wiz application only...
And clerics that can cast stoneskin, clearly. >_>
Make ragequitting application only.