There really is no strategy when playing a melee character. It's all pretty straight forward. Use as many consumables as you can then attack. Fighter's drink more water than a fish. Every PvP fight between a fighter that I've seen has devolved into a drinking game, which is hilarious.
It'd be nice to see some side effects to drinking all those potions, akin to limits placed upon a wizard with spell slots.
QuoteHyperhydration is a potentially fatal disturbance in brain function that results when the normal balance of electrolytes in the body is pushed outside of safe limits by over-consumption of water. Nearly all deaths related to water intoxication in normal individuals have resulted either from water drinking contests, in which individuals attempt to consume a lot of water over the course of just a few minutes, or long bouts of intensive exercise during which electrolytes are not properly replenished, yet massive amounts of fluid are still consumed.
So, I'd say limit the number of potions consumed to 15 every rest period. After the 15th potion you'd have to make a Fortitude Save vs a DC of 15, each time you consume a potion, with the DC increasing by +1 each potion consumed thereafter. Failing the save results in a number of effects found on a table which could include any of the following:
1. Stunning.
2. Confusion.
3. 2d12 damage taken.
4. Dazed.
5. Blindness.
6. Unconsciousness.
7. 1d6 damage taken.
8. Something.
9. Something.
10. Instant Death.
This would result in several instant changes. First, the rush-rush of doing quests would go away, as people would rest more between battles and use herbs. Second, buffers would actually feel more useful during a quest, not simply replaceable by potions. Third, the healing skill would be much more useful for reason number one. Fourth, melees would actually have to make strategic choices: What is more important drinking this barkskin potion or waiting to drink this healing potion? Fifth, melee characters would actually have to rest like a wizard to reset their potion counter. Sixth, PvP would become less of a drinking game. Seventh, certain one-shot items that no one really cares about on quests suddenly become rather useful.
And most importantly, number eight: I can run around with dispel in PvP and laugh as fighters, not knowing what to do or how to react, panic and commit suicide. :p
Sadly alot of this would push for even more use of Wands on fighters.
Pure fighters are hella rare as it is. If anything there should be some perk given to them. Its rare to see a Fighter without some multiclass for wand use.
I love it personally. Currently straight melees only have to manage 2 resources. Their HP and their healing potions. It'd be nice to see a L8 melee have to do more in PVP than simply suck down a few buff potions, then click their target and hover their mouse over their healing potions till the target is dead...
Though I must admit, the fact that melees are so easy to play is likely the only reason that more interesting, but less survivable classes such as mages and rogues can even find front liners on the server.
Wands are expensive, and gold on EfUA is rare compared to how easy it was to obtain on EfU.
Also, the number of consumable items is vastly increased from EfU. I can name one quest where it's not uncommon to find an item that has 10 charges of either endurance or bulls strength, and another quest where it is not uncommon to find an item with 6 charges of bull strength. There are likely other quests like this as well.
Potions are actually required less in EfUA if people use the items that drop.
Then lets get rid of Dragons because they are not scientifically feasible as well.
Fairies and Orcs, too.
It's not about being scientifically feasible it's about game balance and strategy.
It's definitely one of the more interesting ideas I've heard of, yet I'm not sure potion boat really is that big of an issue. Plus, I'm not sure we want to encumber players with more complicated ideas. NWN is a pretty complex game as is, and we already take it to the hardcore level.
True, it'd make things slightly more complex and make playing a fighter more difficult. (Roughly, I'd say it'd be on par with playing a Wizard.)
I have also watched a ton of fighter vs fighter duels recently. I sit there and watch them consume more potions than I have total spell slots, and I secretly wish there was a way for them to get choked and strangle on them. :p
I admit I have fighter envy. It sucks to be able to manipulate the fabric of reality, and still be frightened of the guy with a pointy stick. >_>
The effect this would probably have is to reduce the number of fighters, making life more difficult for wizards who no longer have anyone to run them through quests.
POTION BOAT
hahahaha stardog
But really. This is wholly unnecessary. People who drink a lot of potions have already been punished with having to buy more potions. This is only curing the symptom.
Slightly off-topic:
I must say that not everyone fits "melee","support","scout", or whatever. Some chars have many skills and abilities, that rules like this will have little to no effect on. Though RWG touched on this already.
Regardless, it seems to be an awful amount of work for the DMs, who are in short enough supply these days.
While it's a very neat idea, this isn't exactly the kind of change you make to a long-running server with a dedicated player base on a long-lived game. I don't think Fighters are that great a threat or imba towards other classes.
No, the real threat to other classes is the stigma against them by DMs and vets who happened to play a PC of that class once and owned the shit out of everyone, and now think any change that doesn't nerf them is giving too much to an imba class.
This would just mean people would multiclass would-be pure fighters to a divine class and hurt the already not-so-prominent healing potion selling economy to get around that. Then take a bard level.
I like this idea.
Quote from: MisterPAIN;100951This would just mean people would multiclass would-be pure fighters to a divine class and hurt the already not-so-prominent healing potion selling economy to get around that. Then take a bard level.
This is true, which invalidates the idea...which sucks. :(
I'd just like to see Fighter's have to actually do more planning and strategic thinking, similar to how a wizard must plan and think ahead when preparing spells.
I mean, after all, it'd only effect potions, not the consumable items dropped on quests which are numerous on EfU:A. Suddenly, some of those one shot healing items become really useful.
I like the idea of limiting in some kind of funny idea to limit the (massive?) use of consummables, be it in pvp or in quests.
Potion side effects are a neat idea.
Example (random ideas):
Something such as a potion/wand belt for sale in which you'd put only x potions that would be accessible in combat. The rest would still be accessible on combat end, but just like you can't change armor in a fight, you should be having a hard time looking through you pack to search for such an such potion. AoO are not enough, imo.
Anything to refrain PCs relying on wares rather than skills, actually...
As for duels, encourage (lawful) duelists to drop_pack before duels, maybe even have some kind of standard law organized dueling equipement to hand out to the duelists...
I dunno... anything except "A" uses 10 serious heals and survives, because "B" only had 5 serious heals. (or speed or blur, or whatever).
my 2c
Back in old school first edition D&D, you could not drink more than one potion without side effects occurring. The side effects could range from permanent spell effects, to your stomach exploding. The point was that the potions would mix in your gut to strange results.
I always got a chuckle seeing folks quaff potions like mad in EFU/COA, hoping and praying for the explosion.
I am against this on the basis of this: Some races do not suffer from over hydration.
Sahuagin, Water Genasi, Kua Toa, a few examples that player are available to play as. What about people who worship water deities? I would think there god would give them some protection against this affliction (Sea caves domain)
I am just saying, I do not think this would be desireable, and will turn many people away from the server, (Naga for one, but then, he's banned, BRING NAGA BACK)
Quote from: Thomas_Not_very_wise;100965I am against this on the basis of this: Some races do not suffer from over hydration.
Com'on TNVW, drop the arguments about 'it's not realistic'. This is a fantasy setting game.
Besides, we're speaking 'mixing magic stuff' more than overhydration, i reckon.
As far as pros and cons, go, i'd say the question really is: is it worth the trouble?
It's not about water, it's about mixing magic stuff, really.
Boom goes the superbuffed warrior. That'd be a laugh.
Love the idea (Really? Heltec liking an anti consumable suggestion? Wow!)
Never going to happen, though.
Playing a pure fighter is kind of tough because they completely depend on RP to get healing potions. There aren't near as many healing supplies compared to the Underdark. So for higher level fighters to stand and bang in the higher level quests, they have to consistently find a potion maker. Cure moderate potions are 50 coin, and cure serious are rarely available.
Multi-class characters can use magic items, wands or UMD if they are rogues which is a big advantage on this server I think. Being able to make or just use healing wands in combat is huge, both in cost and in the mechanical advantage of no attack of opportunity in combat.
Plate mail has already been effectively taken away, and now you want to nerf pure fighters?
I remember at one time DMs were encouraging more one class builds with magic items, and I think that idea had merit.
Seriously, the ratio of casters to pure melee builds is like 2 to 1 or more now. I've never seen so many cleric and cleric multiclass and wizards.
Worse yet, characters with cleric levels rarely mention their god, preach their dogma, or do anything other than "Bless Tempus for the circle of protection from evil I am about to cast so that you don't get nailed by a fear spell and I get my ass kicked."
THE WITCHER
My two cents: Fighters and other melee classes are -extremely- tough to survive with if you don't know what you're doing. What you should know about what you're doing is to drink a lot of potions.
Yes, the consumable clutter is too great lately. I think if you can tone this down, it would balance the server out as effectivly as the idea suggested in this thread without the need for scripting. Ideally, playing a fighter should be about choosing the right potions at the right time, with limited resources come difficult decisions about when to use what.
Finally, mages/clerics and other spellcasters will never be obsolete. Also, half the time I see people worried about spell slots, they are playing a generalist. You kind of painted yourself into that corner, imo. I know an extra slot per level doesn't seem like much, but add in another couple with an int bonus, and suddenly a lvl 6 mage can really buff, if that's what they are into.
I like it.
Seems like one of those kind of over-realistic ideas to me! Plus, yes, it would just promote people multiclassing for wands even more.
So we then revert to watching boring expertise-fests instead? No thank you. I don't like this suggestion.
And I don't think potions are over used at all, incidentally.
It would not happen, for the following reasons:
It's a game.
And it's fantasy.
But beyond that, in the realistic world, you need to drink approximately 3-4L of water rapidly (in about an hour) with no water deficits to lower your sodium enough to cause the osmotic shift that then causes your little beloved brain cells to suck in water, swell up, and cause you problems. It's actually a pretty rare event in a civilian ICU, let alone in the military ones where we have people drinking a lot more water. Most of the people in the world walk around mildly dehydrated anyways.
Fighters sweat and are usually fighting. Therefore, all those potions they chug would actually act like primitive gatorade, helping fuel their body to fight off dehydration.
Fighterade.
Is it in you?
If you're a mid-to high level wizard and you're scared of any fighter, you're doing something wrong.
In any case, the best way to tackle any perceived 'potion bloat' (of which I don't think there is one, given that most melee characters I know are scrounging for potions, and spend every coin they get on them just to stay alive while wizards can invest all their coin in wands) would be to include more Dispel Magic or Lesser Dispel items usable by all classes.
This is way better than my suggestion of magical violent diarrhea from over-use of potions.
But in all seriousness- Few things irritate me as much as seeing unreasonable quantities of potions/consumables being used. My feelings are that they're supposed to be used relatively infrequently with perhaps a more severe impact on combat. While this suggestion might be over-doing it, I do think that in a relatively low magic world, potions could be limited more than they currently are.
Wands cannot be used as rapidly as potions. As far as I know, you get one wand or item charge per round. Potions can be chugged at the rate of two per round, more if hasted.
It forces anyone who wants to face off against the "best" (read: has more potions) fighter in pvp, or even a tournament where potions are allowed to have to scramble to get tonnes of them before they even have a chance.
We don't have people with plus five fullplates, swords and haste boots that make them untouchable, but do have people that have so many potions it would take a mob of people with multiple dispels to bring them down. It's just as high a barrier when someone can drink all day and have more benefits than plus five loot gives.
Haste makes wand useage just as good. More potions and consumables also makes weaker build characters win too.