I'm not bringing this up to suggest people have an easy way to crush to 9, the XP nerf that hits PCs at level 8 should forestall that anyway. At 2-6 or 3-7 you have a great selection of quests to do with a range of challenges. Especially since so many new ones were added to that range. As soon as you hit 8, you're down to quests that tend to be long, need an optimal team to make any profit or are restricted on how many times you can do them or what factions can take them. Either you powerquest a few that you can do, or the character slowly runs out of supplies without a way to replenish them. There are few casual quests in the lower risk/lower but reliable reward area to let you recover from events/PVP/spice.
Even if you don't manage to reach 8 on a character due to a run of bad luck or just not questing much, there's a knock-on effect. If you're in a faction with >L7 characters, your choices in questing tend to end up being really limited if you want to do stuff as a team. There's only really one quest where you can pick up a generic team or all your allies and do it in 1/2 an hour without the scaling leaving you worse off than when you went in. I believe it would make EfU more entertaining if a few quests that are perhaps harder to reach or unpopular got jumped up from 3-7 to 3-8 to give some more variety and an incentive to do them. It could be set with little or no XP for a L8 so that you have to do the big-ticket quests for 9 still. THat last thing that'd make sense is to have people easily reaching 9 and getting bored.
I'm not playing a L8 or up PC yet, but I'm still not a fan of grinding the same quests over again to avoid leaving faction members or IC allies out. It means you end up seeing less of the server's cool areas because you always hit the same challenge. Epic quests are fun, but when you're limited in time, shorter quests are where its at to get some plotting, quests and RP in before you have to go.
Agreed. I find level 8 to be the "boring level" sometimes.
Excavation Site in Old Stones could definitely need an increased level cap. It's a fairly vicious quest for a 3-7. In comparison, Harpies is a 3-7 quest and it's maybe 1/5 of the difficulty of this quest.
On a related note, I find the goblin/granary quest to be far too easy for a 2-6 quest, whereas the wolves and kobolds quests are significantly harder, despite being 2-5. Making the former 2-5 and the latter two 2-6 would see more people of moderately high level getting outside town more often, rather than just doing the same three quests (granary, well, Muskroot's) in town all the time, as I often notice. Not to mention it'd be more fitting, in my opinion.
I like the current level caps. Moving on from lvl 8 to 9 is an accomplish that should require more than just grabbing a quest group and wiping out quests, even with diminished returns. By that level especially, you should be less focused on just grinding up quests and more on accomplishing other goals and expanding your influence.
That the ones with higher caps require more planning and thought to finish means that your character is forced to be more of a mover and shaker (or follower) and less likely that they are someone who just happens into random quest group going to crush X.
Finally, most of these quests are already fairly easily done when you are at the higher end levels for the quest. Allowing even higher levels would just turn them into nearly riskless grabs for what supplies they offer.
I like the current level caps. Moving on from lvl 8 to 9 is an accomplish that should require more than just grabbing a quest group and wiping out quests, even with diminished returns. By that level especially, you should be less focused on just grinding up quests and more on accomplishing other goals and expanding your influence.
That the ones with higher caps require more planning and thought to finish means that your character is forced to be more of a mover and shaker (or follower) and less likely that they are someone who just happens into random quest group going to crush X.
Finally, most of these quests are already fairly easily done when you are at the higher end levels for the quest. Allowing even higher levels would just turn them into nearly riskless grabs for what supplies they offer.
In my own opinion,
Nobody above level 8 should be grinding it out, yet many people believe it is a requirement if you want to have supplies or gear to survive.
QuoteMoving on from lvl 8 to 9 is an accomplish that should require more than just grabbing a quest group and wiping out quests.
I agree with that, which is why the returns on XP should be negligible for a L8 on these. If you want L9 you have to be working for it. As others noticed, if you manage to hit 8 without being propped up by DM reward or trading you end up grinding not for L9 but to merely stay afloat. I thought 8 was meant to be a soft cap on leveling up and one most PCs could reach (thus rogue perk at 8, barb rage and bardsong bonuses at 8 etc), not a cap on getting supplies back.
Even on a more political based PC, stuff like bribes, pay, spice, invasions and PVP will dent your supplies or cash on a regular basis and you need to grind 'em back up. We can't all play merchants, muggers or leaders. Whenever I get a PC that's managed 8, I've invariably ended up playing an alt purely to go and do low level quests for a bit of variety. I actually quit one PC because I was bored of losing supplies to spice and doing the same stuff to get them back each week. The issue wasn't the challenge of spice so much as the consequences, in that I needed to go crush or my character would die in any PVP or event. Didn't have the time for that.
Additionally when the only quests you can do at 8+ are hardcore ones needing planning, it drives a huge wedge between powergaming factions and others. For the average PC, levelling up from 6-8 subjects you to diminishing returns as the risk of questing without an optimal team (TPK) isn't mostly justified, especially if you're low on resources. For a powergaming team you just go and hit the challenging stuff because you can. It's not only planning, Jayde. It's whether you can even ICly join up with suitable PCs as you're not going to go at those things without a good buffbot, a tanky PC etc. On the other hand, there are a lot more 2-6 and 3-7 quests lately, with several of the older ones bumped up a level on the maximum.
It's an easier suggestion to the DMs to balance existing quests with more risk to allow a L8 in than to ask for a bunch of new ones. Easier stuff won't and shouldn't let everyone be a L9 in 2 weeks like the old days. It will however cut down on PC burnout from feeling like you're on a treadmill if you want to ever have potions to fight with or money to plot with. I can't be the only player who feels like it should be OK to play more casually and that higher levels shouldn't be limited to those with an inclination and time to do hardcore quests or crowd-pleaser RP to stay there. L9-11 sure, but 8 isn't overpowering or really hard to reach, and it gives you stuff like 2nd attacks and +1 attribute that allow you to challenge the tough things. It's hard to stay motivated at though. Otherwise, EfU risks ending up with the same few players able to be kind of a big deal, and the rest on the sidelines when it comes to events/fights.
Finally, questing can be an end in itself. It's a lot of fun to go and beat an entertaining quest, and being able to do it means people will stay on their main characters, not log out of boredom. They'll be available more for rivalries, plotting etc by dint of being logged in. I'd rather have something to do than stand idling in the square or fight intermininable duels to pass time until I can pursue a plot.
There is a huge difference between level 7 and level 8 for most classes.
Melee-based builds usually get +1 damage and +2 ab. (Feat if you're a fighter)
Rogues, Clerics, Bards, Druids all get their second attack.
Wizards, Sorcerers and Clerics -USUALLY- get two extra level 4 spells and can now really start beasting it out in PvP.
I'd argue 6->7 is a greater difference for questing.
- Fighter/X: Second attack
- Rogue Multiclass: Uncanny Dodge, 2d6 sneak .
- Bard Multiclass: +1 dmg, more song effects;
- 1 or 2 tumble AC for Tumblers, depending on whether it's a class skill.
- Access to L4 spells (L3 for Bard) in the first place to start "beasting it out" unless you play a sorcerer.
The power goes up at L8 yes, but 7's where you get more new abilities that change the way a PC can fight vs mobs, which is what's relevant to quests. Uncanny Dodge or access to Improved Invis improve your chances far more than +1 attribute and AB on top of that.
PvP's irrelevant to this anyway, as the point isn't that it's hard to reach L8 to have those abilities in PvP. The XP drop and lack of quests only bites once a PC's already got there. The point is that it is hard to maintain a PC at L8 without suddenly shifting into either a powergamer, merchant, mugger or do-nothing for OOC reasons of "Can't find a way to quest supplies or gold for my plots". The 'level cap' at 8 isn't causing most PCs to end up at that level and go no further because they won't earn as much XP even if they can earn supplies. It's causing players to get bored at that level because your quest options are suddenly restricted. You need to have a squad of allies on not just for plots, but merely to quest a bit. Said allies are then locked into the long quests too.
See what others have said about boredom, there. The level cap's a good idea as a counter to grinding, but there were a lot more 3-8s and shorter/easier 4-9s about when it was brought in for EFU:A. Longest Night, Tower of Mercy not being 10 times only, Vrazdn etc. 8 didn't feel restrictive. I don't think it's a coincidence that crafting PCs tend to stick around quite a while. Being able to convert spare XP into the resources you want does bypass the supplies issue, and the alchemy/herbal systems remain entertaining and potentially profitable.
Clearly quest scaling can handle jumps in power considering L3s and L7s can do the same quests. 3-8 or 4-8 quests would fill the gap nicely between "Regular" and "Crushbot" level ranges, for PCs that aren't aiming to grind or plot to 9 but want to sit at L8 using quests to earn the supplies they burn in RP and conflict. Balancing them deliberately with higher level parties in mind would stop them being too easy. I thought this would be a simple way to get some mileage out of under-played, shorter quests by buffing up the difficulty if needed while also making them more accessible. For example, the shorter Flayer quest is pretty tough compared to its payout now due to changes boosting most of the mobs but especially the boss. It's also very rarely done and not limited by faction. That would go well as a 3-8.
If PvP is irrelevant why do you need an easy way to get potions?
Doing the harder, and more risky quests will get you rewarded too.
These potions you pick up from the no-risk quests will most likely be used PvPing others or going on DM Quests. If you have the balls to PvP and go on DM Quests you should have the balls to do the more risky scripted quests too.
Disagree. Go try some harder quests.
QuoteIf PvP is irrelevant why do you need an easy way to get potions?
What I was explaining was that PVP is irrelevant to how much more powerful L8 is than 7
with regards to quest balance, because quests are a very different combat situation for a PC. A relatively easy, low reward quest or two is desirable as a way to recover when said risky quest, PVP or DM quest drains you so low on supplies that you can't follow up with another because it'd be suicide. If risks didn't occasionally kick the crap out of your PC and cause that, they wouldn't be called "risks".
This isn't about "balls", and macho isn't an argument. It's about the time you're willing to put in to get anywhere after a certain point. Whereas you can log on a L5-6 PC for 45 min and be damn near guaranteed a chance to do a quest if you want to, if you reach 8 the vast majority of choices take much longer than that excluding time to round up a team. It's about burning out on a PC because you have to choose between plots or action as you need the same PCs on for both, or because you don't want to go spent 2 hours on the same quest.
My character isn't even near 8 yet, and I have done all but a couple of the high level quests on previous PCs, or I'd be in no position to comment. You're on a hiding to nothing if your PC reaches 8 by surviving and isn't inclined to hit the big deal stuff. Not everyone wants to play this game the way you might. Sure, the big rewards should take decication or risk, but merely getting by should not.
Stuff in the 3-8 range wouldn't and shouldn't all be a cakewalk like Granary. But what they could be is a series of shorter quests you can do in 30 min. Short and challenging are not mutually exclusive.
tl;dr:- I reckon that making some underdone quests HARDER and upping the cap is a Good Thing.
- This is because high level quests are invariably longer than lower level ones and it can be hard to organise a team due to OOC time constraints.
- If DMs want to make some short 3-8 and 4-9 quests of reasonable difficulty, that'd be cool too, but this way struck me as easier.
- Short does not equal easy, long does not equal hard.
EDIT:
Akke, please read my posts through fully. You are missing the point. There is no reason that quests cannot be balanced to a decent difficulty and reward while being shorter. Purple Mines is deliberately rather short, easy and well rewarded with only one sort of loot, for a reason. Iron Nails was not a particularly long quest but it was a killer.
Oh, also faction wages these days are more a nice bonus than a means to subside on. It'll take you about 2 hours to get a basic potion like Grace, and unlike the old days you can't use the wage as money directly, so you're back round to being a merchant again if you need cash.
@Rapiers
Random areas and bounties are so hit and miss that I haven't seen any in the entire time I've played this PC. The reason quests are good is that they are reliable and people want to join up. The new stuff's icing on the cake, but if it ain't broke, why fix it?
If its merely getting by at high levels your after, interact with other PCs and join a faction. The associations will give enough to get by for those that don't want to try anything dangerous.
There's actually ways now to get supplies that don't require optimized quest teams. They're admittedly hit or miss, but when you hit you can hit very big. Leaving town to wander about, without simply shuffling to and from a QA, can pay very nice dividends and is also potentially far more fun since you don't know what you're going to find.
I know what you're saying Brimstone Sermon, but what you're suggesting isn't really the way to solve it. If changes were made to suit these needs then we would have a bunch of level 9's complaining about the same things.
There are plenty of ways to gain supplies and i feel the majority of quests are well balanced in terms of level caps. Spend gold on potions, trade items for supplies Do as Cap suggested and go exploring. Its not suppose to be easy at level 8.
That wouldn't happen, because it's simple to prevent.
I'll admit this wouldn't have worked a while back for that exact reason, but the L8 XP drop specifically prevents that. We'd have a two-tier system where it's possible to coast up to 8, but then the XP gain of anything but hardcore quests or DM XP is insufficient to take you further. All that's necessary is to keep 3-8 quest XP below the level where a L8 gains anything and there won't be a horde of L9s.
Still don't like the idea of level 8 crushbots going around with unlimited supplies. Having played quite a few level 8 and higher pc's on EFU:M i can assure you it is not as impossible to get supplies as you're making it out to be.
What he's saying is that these are recent changes, so however many high level pcs you had before them doesn't matter, they had access to those quests still.
You might have to go out on a limb and do the harder quests. If you die, you can again return to the other ones and gain more supplies, solving the problem.
People aren't as unwilling to do them as you think. You need to approach their pcs properly and try to barter and flatter for their help. Few people go for a personal approach. It's always "Come with me doing this, stranger, and you can have a share of what's found." You have to give something up to get something. You're not asking people to clean the granary anymore, you're asking them to do something truly dangerous, so change your approach.
As for worry about Pvp, if you're worried about losing, avoid it. If you like Pvp for itself, then it doesn't matter if you lose, you had fun even if being beaten. If you don't like it, why worry about amassing supplies for something you actually don't want to do and should be avoiding?
Don't have enough supplies for a Dm event? Just say so and skip it. Ran out of supplies partway through? Then just explain why and leave (if possible).
To gain supplies, look for employers who want something done and are willing to pay part upfront in supplies. Try to hire yourself out to a brewer for instance.
Finally, I've seen many instances where a high level pc is out of supplies yet steadfastly adamant about never parting with any of their loot. Yes, loot can be traded for potions, gold and wands too. If you're really thinking of giving up on the character anyway, due to lack of supply, then part with something.
Nah. Going above level 8 requires walking the harder parts of the server if you want to reach it solely with scripted quests.
For the record those people stating if you want to get beyond L8 you need to get goals done, join factions and meet people ETC, this is completely untrue. The vastly more efficient way to get past L8 is grind higher level quests and/or get lucky and go on a DM quest of some sort.
Goals and roleplay do not pay any real RP dividends sadly.
YMMV
Never played to L8 myself, so my opinion is more or less shot from the hip here, but past experience tells me that part of the problem has involved players who simply want to rocket their way to L8 in a month by arranging a rapid questing schedule with a familiar party. Only then, when it's as safe as it will ever be, will they attempt to really get their hands dirty with plot and goals.
I can give some credit though to players who complain about the difficulty of staying well geared for the inevitable PvP struggle which comes along with high level plotting. However, I've always found the enormous level of consumables to be an incredibly unbalancing part of the game to begin with.
An endless supply of consumables allowing any class to create nearly any spell effect has led to far too many fights where L8+ clerics, druids and wizards have been brought down by L5 bards who walked into the fight with the greater capacity to use 3rd and 4th level spells. I would actually find the fights to be entertaining if hording such an arsenal was a long term goal for those characters, but unfortunately it's too quick and easy for a 5-7 compared to an 8+
I think most of the last few posts have the wrong end of the stick. To clarify again, this suggestion's about modifying or introducing quests that
can not be used to take a PC above 8. They would allow resupply, to avoid the situations mentioned above where your only choice is to run like hell every time and take no risks because an OOC system has backed you into a corner supplies-wise.
Why? Because that is really boring especially as I have very rarely seen a reward given to a PC that backed out halfway through after doing all he could. Therefore players push on in the expectation of a payoff and console themselves that even if the PC dies, he might be able to stock up again. This level of OOC bullheadedness is a bit wierd for RP, and promotes bad decisions. Nihm's suggestion to sell your loot actually underlines the issue. If your PC has to literally sell the shirt off his back because of an OOC system, something's amiss as the character has become a victim of his own success. If you're down on your luck you'll take any old job to get yourself back on your feet, but of course you can't IG.
@GoblinBones:
Supplies are not impossible to get hold of at higher levels, however there's a much greater supply gap lately between powerquesters and anyone else. Whereas on a 2-7 PC it's simple to pick up a quest run and hit up things in a short time frame, on a L8 you can get the same or even better payoffs, but only by hitting the big stuff. The long stuff. The stuff you want your IC right hand man to do with. The stuff that takes 2-3 hours. What this does is drive a wedge between a L8 PC who got there the long way and the one running with a crush team that is doing exactly what Caddies mentions and has bags of supplies anyway. You need organisation, preferably on an OOC level so that your team is all logged in at once.
@Nihm:
You need supplies even if your PC doesn't go out their way to get involved in PVP or epic stuff. When that comes to you, you need the consumables to either drop your attacker or get clear. The only exception other than an ascetic like Mororn would be an incredibly dull PC that never does anything where a fight might occur anywhere near. The big mistake a lot of people wanting to play their idea of an "RP character" make is to decline useful potions.
If there were shorter quests, these would be unattractive to a crush team going for the biggest reward. Doing a longer quest would net you far more when you factor in travel time and lack of kick-ass end loot. They would however let a non-crush team get themselves consumables or money, albeit of a less spectacular nature. It shouldn't be necessary to sign up with a faction/association to get by, even if wages were that good. If everyone's in one, there's no space for PC initiatives.
tl; dr
- Crushbots currently have stupid supplies and a good shot at L9.
- Adding quests that won't let you get to 9 from them won't change that, they'll be off crushing the ones that do give XP.
- Persuasive badass or not, your PC isn't doing the tough quests without the right sort of PC logged in to talk to. That's out of your control unless you're in an organised squad.
- Adding quests that are not optimal to smash but are quicker to finish will mean that these crushbots can be challenged by PCs with fewer supplies, but still sufficent to do the job.
- Short quests are good, you don't have to plan an evening around the things. However this tends to be ignored as a feature until you end up busy and wish there was something you could do on EfU in an hour or so's playing other than campfire RP.
I agree heavily with the short quests for higher levels point. I have a strange schedule that usually only allows me one evening a week where i can play for more than 1.5 hours. Aside from that, it;s usually very little time in the early morning or late evening (GMT -6). Now that my character is lvl 6 edging towards 7, I see my options drying up. I am considering an alternate character, but many I've spoken with say it;s very discouraging to other players with extended rp, which is a different issue entirely. just my 2 cents.
There are short/medium level 8 quests out there. I can think of four of the top of my head, all which offer pretty good balance/reward. You just have to go and look for them and stop hiding and take some risks for once.
I can't remember the last time i saw anyone do one of the high level quests. IMO people need to start taking more risks and do more exploring etc, go see more of the server theres a lot of cool places out there that people proberbly don't know about. Its not too difficult to put together a little party and go searching where you wouldn't usually go.
Alot of the arguments you bring up brimstone just seem to be your personal experience and what seems to be poor fortune on your part.
Of course they're off my personal experience, so is everyone's accounts except DMs (who can see the entire module), including yours. They're off my experience of everything from running a L10 PC in EfU:A and spending all my XP on brewing, to burning out on a Mistlocke one because I felt stuck in a cycle of grinding Hive after any event or spice. It was all that the team I had could really do at that point.
Oh and my PCs don't "hide and take no risks". I played a stealth PC last and went walking all over the server for a couple of days looking for new stuff when LPFF mentioned new quests. It's a bad idea to make assumptions like that about peoples' experience of EfU, they can be wildly wrong. As for poor fortune on my part, that's another stab in the dark. Everything I said is based on IC or OOC evidence that PCs are often stuck in a rut at 8. From having to arm up a faction buddy after a DM event wiped him out of potions and he couldn't quest with us, to chats in tells trying to work out what quest we could do with the people we had and the lack of time.
In the case of exploring, it would help if you name them at least in part, missing off any location cues. The quest name is no spoiler in most cases, it won't help you find it IG. It will however check if there are more than either of us think. For all I know, this suggestion has already happened to a few quests I haven't done recently. I can also think of 4, but 2 of them have some extra restrictions that get in the way and some have quite the long travel time, especially to fight there. As for high level quests, you won't hear of it as much as PCs tend to hit it with their optimal team. In many cases advertising makes it harder because of scaling.
The existence of these is good, yes. it's not an argument against there being more of a good thing. I can never understand the attitude of many EfU players that making the game less of a timesink is A Bad Thing. It means that we get more people on and active because there's always stuff to do even in short sessions. EfU is great, and the biggest reason people take breaks isn't something negative about the game. It's that they can't afford to take an entire evening to play it. Right now, I'd rather play some Dungeons of Dredmor and leave the game when I want, without letting anyone else down. EfU:M is supposed to be fun. More questing options = more fun if you like that kind of thing. The only issue is balancing things so as not to introduce an expressway to 9, and that's just a case of controlling XP. Consumables should balance out anyway as shorter quests=fewer drops.
Quote from: Brimstone Sermon;266492I can never understand the attitude of many EfU players that making the game less of a timesink is A Bad Thing. It means that we get more people on and active because there's always stuff to do even in short sessions. EfU is great, and the biggest reason people take breaks isn't something negative about the game. It's that they can't afford to take an entire evening to play it. Right now, I'd rather play some Dungeons of Dredmor and leave the game when I want, without letting anyone else down. EfU:M is supposed to be fun. More questing options = more fun if you like that kind of thing.
Very much this. As one with spells of very limited play time, I can honestly say there are many times I've wanted to play EfU in my short bit of spare time, but have ended up playing a console game or similar instead just because I haven't had the time to make EfU "worth it" in the short window of time I had. This isn't exclusively related to quests, of course, but anything to make the game easier to play in shorter intervals too would be a very welcome addition, for me and likely very many others in my situation, no matter how small.
To up the ante, i'll say that i rarely have time to play or lack motivation to even do any questing, ie rarely getting above level 5 on any of my characters.
I think in vein of the recent slowdown you should crank up the roleplay xp maybe up to level 9 and raise the overall amount, maybe from 40 to 100.