A rogue or a bard should not be able to climb a wall or scale a mountain better than a ranger. I propose a ranger should have instant success on any climbing checks or rope use checks due to class proficiency.
The new climbing system is rather buggy and silly anyway. I'm not sure why the little things to click with a check on them were removed over this system.
Quote from: VanillaPudding;266296The new climbing system is rather buggy and silly anyway. I'm not sure why the little things to click with a check on them were removed over this system.
There is a bug forum to report these you know.
If this is another heavy armor ranger, he can full on his ass all day long. If not, investing in tumble and EFUSS acrobatics is not hard.
Obviously, there will be people who exploit the system. The Bard Song System was meant for pure bards to use, but look at everyone making fighter/bards to take advantage of it?
I'd rather see some love for people staying pure to their class, regardless of the build.
Quote from: Spiffy Has;266301Obviously, there will be people who exploit the system. The Bard Song System was meant for pure bards to use, but look at everyone making fighter/bards to take advantage of it?
I'd rather see some love for people staying pure to their class, regardless of the build.
By all means Thomas, explain to me how fighter bards has any relevance to my point? Or why don't you grow a set and make a ,not so tongue in cheek attack in future.
A pure ranger, can still readily invest in tumble and EFUSS acrobatics, if wearing medium armor. To get a respectable score well above what is needed for +1ac from the investment.
In my opinion a Heavy armor character, should not have the ability to climb a rope/scale a mountain. It's far from realistic, and since realism is what we are trying to achieve I think I hold a valid point.
If you want to play a mountain ranger, you have the option, its just going to cost you some skill points.
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You have a valid point Crytalos, I am sure Mort can script something that gives a hefty penalty to those newbs who try and scale a mountain while wearing any sort of armor! Which means, rangers would get a notable +10/15 to their checks, Perhaps +3 to climbing per ranger level even. Reward class focus.
I wouldn't mind rangers getting a small bonus to climbing scores when used in wilderness areas, but the bonus shouldn't be so hefty as to automatically outclass rogues! The classic second-story man would represent a rogue who was similarly skilled in climbing (for example, stealthily scaling the battlements of the Last Keep to gain an alternate entrance). A rogue perk or simply high DEX/Acrobatics/Tumble would represent this extra investment well.
Some of the most amazing areas in the server are only accessible through climbing. Just remember to always bring someone with a rope to help out the more heavily-armored. :)
Is the Jump spell available to rangers? If so, they could just use that with a few cross-classed points in tumble. I know druids get it. That alone could easily give them almost certain success at climbing, especially if they wear light armor and stuff.
If not, requiring rangers to go to a cross-classed skill and spend EfUSS points on something just to do something that they really should be able to do anyway (travel and explore the isle) is a little unreasonable. It CAN be done, but what is required for them to do it is unreasonably harder than what others less suited to the task of climbing have to do.
As it stands, climbing is not used inside of cities, at least not much, barring potential future DM events. Rogues are city-based, rangers are wild-based. For rogues to be better at a feature used almost exclusively in the wilds than rangers is a little odd.
Rogues have always made great climbers in D&D, and a city wall is potentially far more difficult to scale than a passable cliff-face. I have no issue on that front.
As far as cross-classing tumble...there's some pretty big benefits for doing that outside of just getting better at climbing, as well as a lot of loot available to help you along. It's pretty easy to make your ranger every bit as good as the rogues at climbing, but it's like anything else, you need to put a small bit of effort into it.
Rangers do get the Jump spell.
It's also worth mentioning that in pen & paper, the climb skill is influenced by strength. Maybe climb could use tumble or STR mod*2, whichever is higher.
Strength is in the equation.
Jump is indeed availible to Rangers, I had it on lazaric. However, the bonus will not help you if you do not have at least 1(2) pts crossclassed into tumble to give yourself the skill.
PS: I love the climbing system, but then again I have a high dex bard with max'd tumble and max'd acrobatics EFUSS skill so
Rangers might be able to have small bonus, alright.
However, just because you're ranger, does not make you automaticly capable of everything in wilderness. Most of them hang in the town, they are not climbers by any standards. They don't even necessarily have high AE.
Class does not equal a great talent in climbing. It can have it's perks within that class, but it needs to come from investing points and focusing a concept to it. If you are not nimble and dexterous, class has nothing to do with it.
More Wizards cross-classing tumble, check.
Quote from: Spiffy Has;266295A rogue or a bard should not be able to climb a wall or scale a mountain better than a ranger. I propose a ranger should have instant success on any climbing checks or rope use checks due to class proficiency.
Rangers are simply masters of their own environment. I'll go out on a limb here to suggest that the stereotypical ranger is own who has mastered a woodland environment. I might think that across the entirety of Faerun, mountain rangers would be no more common than desert or plains rangers. In the case of a ranger who came out of the mountains, I could see your point. However, few other rangers would be daft enough to choose climbing steep cliff faces over simply walking around them. Typically, if you aren't in the mountains there are quite remarkably few cliffs that you couldn't circumvent in half the time they would take you to climb. Such endeavors are done through sport or stupidity, not necessity.
Rogues on the other hand learn to climb because more often than not, climbing through a window or over a wall to accomplish an unlawful goal is usually far safer than taking the front door or a well guarded gate. Thus they could be more likely to have a reason to attempt such endeavors in any part of the world. The argument against your suggestion that rangers should be better than rogues at climbing "walls" should be all too obvious. Rangers lack both the opportunity and motivation to learn such things.
Consider how a cliff climbing competition would play out between the rogues and the rangers of Calimport and the Calim Desert. I'd bet my left nut on the rogues, and I'd still call if someone raised me for the right one as well.
Bottom line is that a small outdoor bonus should be appropriate for rangers. Though automatic climbing success for all natural surfaces or even class based superiority over rogues for structured surfaces is absolutely absurd.
Rogues should get a climb bonus in civilized areas, while rangers should get these in wilderness areas, then.
I think that male bards, ladies men, and anyone with the smarmy gigolo voice set should gain climb bonus, but only when attempting to get through a ladies window in the middle of the night.
Really, you could argue these points all day. I think a little cross class skill point placement or dual classing can add a lot of flavor to a character (and get you these same skills without having to code more stuff in).
THREAD NECROMANCIES
I had an idea. Why not add an EfUSS skill, Secondary Climb, so you can spend EFUSS points and get a +5 to climb when it's maxed?
Quote from: TheBarmaid;266704THREAD NECROMANCIES
I had an idea. Why not add an EfUSS skill, Secondary Climb, so you can spend EFUSS points and get a +5 to climb when it's maxed?
It's already there in the form of Acrobatics. And it gives more than +5, besides!
Eh.. I don't think any -class- should have a bonus to climb. None of the classes have features that revolve around climbing enough to warrant a bonus as part of the class training where others do not. What would be cool is if strength were part of climbing though :( A spindly little 6 strength halfling can carry themselves up a cliff easier than something with 24 strength that can actually haul their weight.
I'm pretty sure it's been said by the DMs that strength is indeed part of the equation. However, it's heavily balanced by what armor is worn, since strength relative to weight is what's most important as what the person who is climbing is lifting is themselves. A somewhat strong person who is lighter, and is in light armor can climb much better than a very strong, but very large person in heavy armor. This is simply physics.
Strength is not part of the equation unless you have tumble (Or maybe even with...).
When I first started trying to climb, I had -1 despite 20 strength with a bulls strength brew when trying to go down the south cliffs.
Strength does affect.
Remember. There are different ways of climbing. "Free climbing" with claw and then there's the rope.
Rope climbing takes strength.
Free climbing is more dexterity base.
The point was to help rogues/dexterity PC have more roles in a party, by climbing and then tossing a rope for others to reach them.
Perhaps the rope check is too steep?
As a new player it was something of a shock to discover that the best way for my wizard to climb out of a ditch (without the jump spell) was to have his drunken hin friend knock him out cold and carry his limp body up the rope.
How do you do the strength climbing? Using the claw it only allowed my dex modifier rather than strength to be added to it.