EFUPW Forums

It's all in the title really. Anyone have any thoughts, feelings, ideas, musings they wish to share with the DM Team, especially with regards to recent developments. Feel free to be candid, and I'm certain my colleagues and I will feel free to ignore whatever this blatant and cynical attempt at public relations spawns.

More efu weddings and wedding related bombings.

I think it's amazing the difference having a DM on the server does for player count + plotting. The recent developments have been good. There is a serious DM plot going on now, though I am not sure how many people know the details to understand it as such, so perhaps at some point a bit of the curtain could be pulled away. My big advice is: Keep it up! Keep logging in as DMs.

I'm just writing ideas as they come.

Concerning town militias: i'm still confused between stygians, armada, colonial watch... all the same to me. I'm discussing with a guard, and he doesn't know who's his chief. Is it the governor, Dog-head, that noble house from old port... dunno. What makes a person a citizen? i get the "citizen stone answer" expect it's no UD anymore, it's no town hall giving out stone but some guy who's found statuettes. Dunno.

Concerning plots. The only plot i see is suddenly orcs coming into our lives. That's because i don't get involved much, but yes, "lifting a little bit of the curtain" would certainly be nice. The only times i see Stygians is when they round up their team to quest. Armada i don't think i've met. Malatesta i don't see anymore.

Are there any other factions excpet the local guard? I know OOC there are (should be?), but my PCs have no idea, even my first 'involved' pc, Pwa.

Concerning DM events: the Old port tourney was grand, but much too long imo. The arena area i had difficulty to view and kept reajusting camera view. I realize the effort put into this event, so please to take that criticism badly.

Concerning good/evil balance. Are all good characters in hiding? Or are there no more good characters or faction except the few ones that raise lvl, get challenged by local high lvl bully, and die? On the other hand, so many druids have appeared it's weird.

Concerning PC interaction, it seems to revolve around 'you're banite, bad' vs. 'you're against the local government, exiled or dueled to death'.

Concerning builders: there was a lot of enthousiasm for factions to try to get something built (ex: dwarves under fignar), but now that enthousiasm seems stalled.

Concerning clergy: i don't see them. Most (not all) clerics play buffers, not clerics, imo. No temple developpement since Amaunotor (server beginning!) that i noticed (i'm not omniscient, but i do log on a lot). App only clerics for some time, imo.

Concerning player attitude: i've made alt under another log, and it's hard to get player attention when you play 'newbye'. Either people quest (and prefer small parties), or factions seem stale (except watch recruitement). I felt it was much more easy to get involved some time ago.

So, basically, i still stand on 'great things are going to happen'. I've enough trust for the DM team to be patient. What worries me on that part is i've seen only about 3 active dms (Mort, Dan, Nuke) for a while, when i know there's supposed to be much more.

I'm also concerned about the player count seemingly going down.

Rereading this post i realize how negative it is. Funny thing is i really enjoy EfUA; I must be in a bad mood today, regards to my health. Best i stop writing here.

Stygians and the Armada are the same people. AKA, the Stygian Armada.

QuoteConcerning town militias: i'm still confused between stygians, armada, colonial watch... all the same to me. I'm discussing with a guard, and he doesn't know who's his chief. Is it the governor, Dog-head, that noble house from old port... dunno. What makes a person a citizen? i get the "citizen stone answer" expect it's no UD anymore, it's no town hall giving out stone but some guy who's found statuettes. Dunno.

Concerning plots. The only plot i see is suddenly orcs coming into our lives. That's because i don't get involved much, but yes, "lifting a little bit of the curtain" would certainly be nice. The only times i see Stygians is when they round up their team to quest. Armada i don't think i've met. Malatesta i don't see anymore.

Are there any other factions excpet the local guard? I know OOC there are (should be?), but my PCs have no idea, even my first 'involved' pc, Pwa.

Concerning DM events: the Old port tourney was grand, but much too long imo. The arena area i had difficulty to view and kept reajusting camera view. I realize the effort put into this event, so please to take that criticism badly.

So, basically, i still stand on 'great things are going to happen'. I've enough trust for the DM team to be patient. What worries me on that part is i've seen only about 3 active dms (Mort, Dan, Nuke) for a while, when i know there's supposed to be much more.

Above is the feedback that's relevant to us (DMs).

The rest is more player-concerned and our expectations have been stated many times in the new player forum or the "Rock my socks off post" that I dont bother to comment here. The only thing I can say is to change yourself, and hope to be a positive example to newer players and other players as well.

The event last night was extremely cool. Never seen that side of efu before. Very cool and Im glad I was apart of it.

I'm not sure the IC contention about guards obeying Fyoris/Ortred/Court members is something that DMs need to address, although it's definitely something you can exploit for fun plottage. In fact, regarding certain IC posts we have (from you!) about this very subject, it seems like something you wanted.

Huge kudos (to Dan?) for making a new faction crawl out of seemingly nowhere while looking badass about it, instead of just an ass(pull). Anyone who was there when they showed up should agree, or GTFO. I might understand that other players, who missed it, might not like the "out of nowhere" part, but this server never sleeps.

This is a massive event. Stuff has been happening all week, with hours of DMing at a time. The thing I hope most is that when it reaches a kind of "resolution" that you don't just plunge into another giant plot (you're not super-DMs!) but that you don't fall off the face of the earth, either. It's great to see you didn't all die during finals/whatever real-life thing stole you away from us. :-D

I pretty much disagree with everything Letsplayforgold said.

As far as feedback goes, keep up the excellent work. Anyone with only a rudimentary knowledge of recent events must appreciate that the DMs are making a sincere effort at creating a new and exciting atmosphere for the players; the dramatic introduction of a new DM faction simply the beginning it seems. From the player perspective, exciting times approach.

I can't agree with much that Letsplayforfun said! I am really enjoying the server at the moment and have very little in the way of criticism to give.

Massive events = Awesome.

Currently the orc invasion is the big thing, for obvious reasons. I love it, and I love everything that has been connected to it. All the recent events have been great and the emergence of the new faction is also cool. While the good vs. evil thing is a player issue, it is nice to have a backing incentive to playing good.

I can't say exactly how close an eye other plots have been watched by the DM's but as long as you guys keep aiding how you can with other small ones when not bringing the awesome with the main, you guys are doing superbly.

You guys are working pretty hard and I have all the respect for you guys (of course I shall still nag you). As Scotty said, a semi-resolution would be nice where the immediate threat is somehow avoided for a bit but still there is lingering danger at a smaller level. Also, I know it seems that some people have stopped (or just by appearance) but I do hope dms will keep giving out small plot clues, items, etc. that allow the players to pursue something. This something can be big since the players will have to keep busy working and having fun or just something very creative makes a small but significant change to things.

To clarify, I don't mean that I want the plot to slow down any, but rather, my suggestion was for when it does reach its end, that a balance of "taking it easy" and "still here" can be found.

Lately I have seen more quest spicing, a new area added for explorers, one area destroyed by pcs, the new Order faction arriving, more stuff for the older factions to do, and of course the orc raids which may or may not have other forces instigating them.
 
These are all good things that make the server feel a lot more lively.

More Aussie Timezone events IMO. :)

A few weeks ago I was honestly feeling disheartened and like the server was dying due to lack of attention. But this week especially has been amazing. So much going on every day! Really revitalizing.

Keep up all the good work. I'm pleased with the way factions have been heading and I'm happy to see a lot of people logging on again.

I think ScottyB pretty much covered everything I would say, and any other criticisms I would have would directly be a result of me as a player.  

Primarily, I have so much stuff to do, my time is limited and I'm spread thin.  I can list at least "Five Major Threats That Will Destroy Us All!", and working to protect the colony from them, combined with involvement in multiple factions plus leading a faction, plus the need to pay various IC bills... that has me ICly and OOCly spread thin.

On the bright side, I am enjoying myself!

I am leaning in agreement with Letsplayforfun, but then, I can exploit a lot with the current administration is going on!

Being back from 2-week intensive weeks of final, I can say I've neglected efu. It was really hardcore! But vacations give me a bit of a breather to work on building and running events.

A lot of what I'm doing is behind the scene trying to address concerns such as problems figuring out the settings/factions, Guidance, etc. doing pc writeups/aid to help become oriented, etc. I'm retouching a lot of NPC conversation to provide a tour and hook you up into the dynamic of the server early on. I can understand that there is probably inequalities in plot involvement and that some timezone may be favored, but I think it's fairly easy *at the moment* to find a hook should you make an effort to.

I think letsplayforfun brought up some good points. I also agree with Mort that a lot of the points should also be directed at we players. We should try to elevate our game in those areas like religion, character and server development. It's always essentially been in our PC hands to create plots and intrigue, to make enemies and friends, to be the foundation that the world is built upon. Not every plot need come from a DM, in fact, the really good ones have come from PC's time and time again.

As far as criticisms are concerned, I think what the server really needs is more DM's. The DM's that are active are amazing, but its simply impossible to budget your time to the entire player base. We don't need DM's to enjoy ourselves, mind you, but it absolutely does make the game more fun for everyone.

Active plots help to move things along, and active interesting factions are the foundation to a lot of player activity. When players are not bound together by some goal that others oppose, the game grows to feel stale because it has lost a dynamic aspect of what makes PWs so much fun. IMO it seems when I log in there are many players that RP, but many are not in factions, or have loosely bound together to form intermittent player factions. This tells me many that are playing may not have an interest in the current factions.

Interesting and fun factions are the foundation of forming dynamic conflict in a PW. They recruit players due to their nature, and promote activity.

Plots built around or using those factions in one way or another, or better, that polarize existing factions on one side or another of the plot promote server wide interest, interaction, and conflict.

Plots alone may be spectacular, but without the support of a multiple active factions, die out quickly because the character base shifts too quickly. (ie, if a player is not in or involved with a faction, more likely to move on from his dead character to another concept. His actions in any active plot die with him, and stall the plot).

These would be my suggestions.

I agree that having more DMs would be good, but it's important that they're the right ones. The difference a DM makes on the server to help out with PvP + run small spice, or just watch people to give them small rewards is really massive.

I'm glad to see activity pick up during this Winter break, now that many of us are back from finals season (including myself!). I do think we should make a general introductory post to new players, explaining the setting and faction with greater clarity in order to address letsplayforfun's criticisms, and attract more newer players.

Guys don't be so quick to throw off "this feedback is not relevent because it is only applicable to you".  That is a foolish action to perform.  All feedback is useful.  People saying "well I didn't find this" or any other comment about missing information can be used to find spots where there is a lack of clarity.

Beware of old player syndrome.  They won't leave their comfort zone because it's always been like that.  If someone brings up a point where there is lack of understanding, consider that the explanations there are lacking and need further fleshing out.  If some things that are obvious are being missed, consider them too complicated and need simplifying.

Also remember some players may need a little herding to get involved.  Not every player is super-proactive and those that are more shy should not be left out because they are not forcing themselves to get involved.  Sometimes that just doesn't make sense to them.  

Query random players, "what do you think about X plot" in reference to rumors posts and other "assumed IC knowledge".  Consider that their reactions can help gague how much more fleshing is missing in the module to portray changes and perspectives between plots.  Don't just wait here for feedback, though this is a good start.  Go out and find people, doesn't matter if you Do or Don't know them.  I'd say Better if you don't know them.  If your rarer players know whats going on, you're doing a good job.

There's some feedback on getting feedback.

EFUA isn't a democracy (or a dictatorship).
It's more like a big circlejerk. Everybody's after the same thing (Enjoyment, or "pleasure") and we'll all get there eventually. Some get their rocks off helping as many people as they can, others a select few. The DMs don't have a role any different from everyone else's, they're just after enjoyment too. Thing is, even in a circlejerk, somebody will have to finish in first, and somebody will have to finish last.

(PS, didn't read any of the thread before this. lawl, probably completely off.)

(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST.)


Note from Sternhund: Kotenku was not actually banned.

Sort of like what kotenku said ; While EFU is a great server, it's like anything else ; There are some people that invariably excel more than others - starting plots, factions, whatever else. In turn, these people get priority when it comes to handing out DM quests and whatever else plots and loot, presenting more risks and chances for them to die, but if successful, ending up quite better off, be it supplies or some form of storyling information, etc.


TBH this has also sort of irked me, while it's not directly an advantage, because all this spice and attention is definately much risker, if they survive they do usually get the benefit of loot, supplies, or plot related shenanigans.

On the flip side, the 'less fortunate'  - that is to say, the less proactive and involving players have the advantage of less overall risk, as they are pitted mostly against standard AI in their relentless quest smashing that they engage in to keep up with the above group, or because they are just bored because they are left out of the above group's plots/quests, or the quests/plots of others.

This is the way EFU works, and most people seem content for it to be the way. The first group continues to rock out, the  second latches on to join in their plots, etc. That's really just how things go.


While I wouldn't expect the DM's to divert all their attention away from the people who ARE rocking out as they are now; Little shoves to get random balls rolling for the 'other guys' would really go a long way for getting the 'other guys' to start plots/factions /otehr involving junk of their own.

Example; (Not a complaint) I don't usually get a lot of (in game) DM attention. Like a year ago, some pvp happened in the red skull temple and my PC was left for dead to the NPC spirits, who was saved by some random PC of Canzahs.  Later on while doing an unrelated quest involving undead with my obligatory cliche kobold minion , a  DM spiced the quest and gave my PC the task of bringing the two who beat him, to the very spot, to give to the spirits.
This quest then ushed my (all too short lived) amassing of my kobold army for that purpose, as well as other server domination goals.

Stuff like that, even a small interjection and nudge - You don't need to necessarily hold someone's hand to get a ball rolling and start plots and stuff like that. After that event I don't think I saw a DM IG for months (unrelated PVP aside)  and never again related to that plot, but my (surviving) minion(s) and I had somewhat of a purpose and new goals, which gave us at least a week or two of RP before my PC bit it for summoning a vampire on some unsuspecting powerquesters.  We definately need more character specific spice, imo. Massive server plots are fun, but random interjections no matter how small, make the world seem so much more alive, and immersive. And tbh, that kind of stuff is way better than any scripted quest.

Since I've been back, in less than a week I've had 3 DM quests, two of which where I was a major player. What amazes me is that when EfU:A started, there were concerns about there not being enough DM attention. I think that what we have now is a server where the opening night jitters are gone and we're all ready to do some really epic stuff. This Wild Orc plot, for example, or several of the other plots that Mort or Stardog are working on (that I know about, at least). I had a best case scenario in mind when I returned to EfU after my exams, and lately I think I've exceeded it.

But occasionally there's a lull around midnight EST and for around 6 hours afterwards. The only thing I can think of is making so more easily accessible things to do. If there's only 3-4 players on the server, what can we do so we're not all standing around, or in my case too scared to go exploring alone because of how dangerous the island is? Not a problem, I think, but perhaps a gap that could be filled.

I'd almost post this anonymously, but figure its not worth the effort since its easy to look someone up--all the same, I doubt it'll be well recieved.

I think the idea of "DM spice" is mostly to try to whack people. The last three times I was involved in a DM event, the players just gave up--not because they don't like challenges, I know I do and I know the players involved thrive on challenges.

The "events" though looked mostly like throwing overwhelming mob after mob at the players until they gave up. No bonus for surviving, loot that honestly seemed mediocore--and this is what I'd stress most:

Absolutely no inkling that the DM cared to hear an ounce of feedback. I didn't make a fuss over it, but I'm hearing the concern around the server that some DM events are growing more and more disproportiantely difficult without real rewards. They feel more aimed at, and I say this with all the experience of a guy whose DM'ed a lot and seen a good deal, killing players than anything else.

When people duck out of DM events half-way through because of stuff like this, I expect there's something to look at.

Some players still won't mind, including myself, ultimately we keep playing despite what looks like heavy-handedness because we do trust the DMs mean well and perhaps had a bad day, or just aren't really paying attention to how far the line between a "challenge" and a "decimation" has been crossed. Its tough to see that.

I do know more than a few players are growing increasingly frustrated though that for the longest time, there was no DM attention.

Then when it arrived, it took the form of total decimations with at least a few deaths every time. On one quest, I died once--another PC died three times--and one PC actually just left the quest entirely. On another quest, between a party of five people, we had six deaths (two guys died twice) in ten minutes.

That's not challenging, and honestly not fun either. I like a challenge, I like to feel like I could survive it and come out rewarded for doing so. I give up now on spiced quests because the rewards aren't there, its just spice that some people are feeling is being used as a way to whiddle down potion stockpiles.

I'm bringing this up here because the DMs asked for feedback. I tried to talk to the DMs about these quests when they were run, and never got response--and I gave up on IRC since I don't get one their either.

Hopefully, this is just something to think about. Players, despite the whole you can't win NWN thing, do want to feel like they can 'win' and lately, I've felt like having a DM show up means I'm going to come out worse off than I started.

This isn't just PvM either, but to be frank, almost any experience involving a DM. I've been insulted before on these forums by the DMs for saying this (the DM who insulted me, never even bothered to talk to me about it despite efforts to contact him directly and through other DMs: its one of the reasons I think I've honestly been playing less and less--even more so than the lack of real plots and mysteries to work on solving), but I figure its worth reminding people that we all come here to have fun and I see players growing frustrated and we do talk.

When I see a chance to try to air this openly, I'll take it. I'm sure I'll get flamed, insulted, or mocked for saying it openly--but at least let it be said I'm not part of the group that *only* complains in backchannels and PMs through IRC.

To the DM's credit, I hope this thread is designed to address some of those concerns Oro. I hope that they do take your criticism clearly and try to make changes. I think one thing to add to this is that in the past when players have raised concerns a lot of the time nothing comes of it. So, try to make that effort guys. As wong as you may feel that PC is, I think one of your roles as a DM is to make them feel better as opposed to worse.

I am out for blood and the rush of crushing your escapism with the iron fist of reality.

It's true!

That is MY line, sir.

Quote from: OroborousWhen I see a chance to try to air this openly, I'll take it. I'm sure I'll get flamed, insulted, or mocked for saying it openly--but at least let it be said I'm not part of the group that *only* complains in backchannels and PMs through IRC.

I think this is a very important and valid point. TBH.

I would like to see more general news/rumors posts, for one. I play in the off peak times and don't hear or see a lot of the plotty stuff that happens. Take the Order for example. I had (still have) no idea who they are, or even when they appeared. This is after meeting two of them, mind you.

More posts of common knowledge and rumors make the server seem more alive to me and help me fill in the blanks do I don't feel totally ignorant when I log in.

Something else I hope for would be more DM spice/quests/attention in non US prime time zones. It doesn't have to be multi-hour events or quests. A little spice, a random possession, a tiny non-important event can blow me away and make my week. Truly.

Quote from: Ommadawn;101160I would like to see more general news/rumors posts, for one. I play in the off peak times and don't hear or see a lot of the plotty stuff that happens. Take the Order for example. I had (still have) no idea who they are, or even when they appeared. This is after meeting two of them, mind you.

This is pretty much universal to the server, just FYI!

That was just an example. >_>

This is going to be TL:DR.

Like Oro, I'm pretty sure that what I have to say won't go down easy. I actually started playing somewhere else several weeks ago and I'm having fun with that, but since you asked, here's my answer.

First, I just want to point something out. Considering how often my threads get locked, this is about as candid as I'm ever going to get on these forums. Believe me, I have more to say than just this. However, I do take great amusment from the fact that there is talk of a "group that only complains in backchannels and PMs through IRC," as if that is some kind of an unexpected development.

Come on! Any time someone brings up these issues in the forums the discussion gets locked. You just banned Kotenku for making an off-color metaphor! What the hell was that all about? What do you expect after that, open and honest discussion? What are you going to do to me after I post this, delete my account? Come to my house?

Lighten up, people. Nowhere else do discussion threads get locked with such lightning zeal. For as much as I hear about this famous leather skin, I don't see much evidence of it.

 Anyway, enough about that. I lost my heart for EfU a few months ago and here are the honest and sincere reasons why.

1. A Culture of Pwn - This is my number one gripe with this place. It's all about kicking ass and being the biggest, baddest, meanest motherfucker around. There is no room for nuance, subtlety, or complexity. The prevailing emotions among characters are always some combination of fear, anger, and ennui. There are never, ever any happy endings. In the final analysis, the ultimate arbiter of an EfU character's worth is their ability to win in PvP.

That policy has not gone without some side effects. Plots collapse when the principal character gets axed from the script for what usually seem like unrelated and unimportant reasons. Players quit the server after repeatedly encountering failures which are not of their own making. Hearty role-play gets passed over in favor of grinding quests, because after all, no one ever pwned anybody by just sitting around talking, amirite?

The accumulation of all of these things has turned EfU:A into what amounts to a glorfied arena server where role-play happens to be mandatory, but otherwise has no effect on the gameworld. While it may seem like I am taking issue with the playerbase, I am not. I lay this issue directly at the feet of the DMs, because that which gets rewarded gets repeated.

I would like to take this moment to point out that there is an entire universe of dramatic possibility beyond the standard EfU fare, that is to say: angry men with swords expressing their faint disapproval of absolutely everything and everyone around them, and occasionally beating the shit out of anyone who doesn't like it.

2. The "Are You Kidding Me" Factor - Outside the world of gaming, I've accomplished some pretty remarkable things in my life, usually in the face of skilled, experienced, and disciplined opposition. There is, however, nothing I have ever enountered in my real-world travels that compares to to the extreme eye-gouging impossibility of getting an EfU NPC to cooperate with one of my characters for any reason whatsoever.

Forgive me for saying this so bluntly, but it almost seems like you guys don't know when to stop. It's not enough for you to have the harshest death penalties on the internet, the highest raw difficulty level of any game outside of Battletoads, and a setting filled with hopeless obstacles. Most people would have drawn the line there, but no.

Once a player finally gets a DM's attention for something, manages to persuade them that their great idea isn't anything at all like the thousand other great ideas they've heard from every other player making constant demands on their time, then it becomes a game of "how high can I make this hurdle." And that was back in the days when there were plenty of DMs to pester.

On this issue, I'm speaking less on my own behalf and more for the benefit of other players, several of whom are only looking at EfU in their rear-view mirror. Myself, I quit trying to get anything from DMs a long time ago, because the mere fact of wanting something from a DM is usually what leads to my character's doom. See what Oroborous said.

3. Fairness and Balance - This ties in to the PvP issue, but it deserves its own special section.

There are characters on this server who get to do whatever they want. They are the stars of the show. There is no need to name them, everyone knows exactly who they are. Please notice that I said "characters," not "players." I am not accusing any DM of playing favorites. There have been several characters like this, and the roles generally rotate around a group of deserving players.

My question is this: why is it that for the last year, these characters are always evil, always some kind of fighter multiclass, and are invariably the ones who end up with the Unholy Grail of WTFPwn? Okay, I know, it's because they won it fair and square in PvP, right. See point 1.

If we know ahead of time that certain types of characters are going to always prevail in certain types of encounters, what's wrong with giving a leg up to the other PC types? Why is there this taboo against bestowing power to good-aligned PCs? Wouldn't it be nice to see some unpopular, gangly old geezer with a heart of gold save the day, just once? In other words, why's it got to be so damn miserable all the time, huh?

It seems like whenever the DMs are tipping the scales, the scales favor evil. And not just evil, but the kind of evil that ruins plots, decimates other factions, kills off important NPCs, and generally lives a good life at the expense of everyone else. There is never any mitigating factor, no opposing force, no clash of opposites, just a boot stomping on a human face, forever.

Does anyone remember Barrister Fawkes? I can remember being told by a DM that Barrister Fawkes was given such incredible power, basically an NPC's job, because he went out of his way to involve other people in whatever he was doing. Sure enough, several of my PCs interacted with Fawkes on a variety of levels, and all of them were fun. He was like a junior DM. In his success, he helped others succeed.

That philosophy is gone. In its place we have a system where success only comes at the expense of others. There is no reward for positive achievement, material or otherwise. The only way to get anything is to take it from someone else. Not even real life is that god-awful. That's just not a game I enjoy playing.

Conclusion

Shit man, you must really hate this place, right? Well no, not actually. I can still remember the good old days, and that's what keeps me coming back. When it was at its best, EfU was the best. But that was a long, long time ago, and I've long since reconciled myself to the idea that those days aren't coming back around again.

But I still hold out hope. EfU was great, and can be great again, if only it will return to its roots. Its roots lay in the philosophy that the best players are the ones who make things fun for other players, that winning in PvP isn't everything, that the best characters can have the weakest character sheets, and that sometimes those people can be heroes, too.

My only real complaint is the current factions don't intrest me much. They all have the same general feel of merc companies, swords for hire ect.

I just don't see the deep intrigue and mystery of things like we had in the UD, which is what made them interesting for me.

Factions like the SG, or the Scociety were unique feeling, and had a very interesting and different flavor to them.

I find myself agreeing with I can Has fun.

But yes, DM's DO PLAY FAVORITES. If the player is awesome, they tend to get more attention.

My general feedback would be that i am happy with how things are. Recent events have made things more interesting imo. Liked Dan's event v.much especially the end of it and i like what i have seen so far of the new faction.
 
I certainly feel i am getting a decent share of DM time etc.
 
Some feedback would be a request to link in the old Sanctuary with the new, the more links to our servers past the better e.g is the machine linked to the Myathallar etc.
 
I do think some really nice rewards following spice would be good now and again as well, rather than just more potions etc. By nice i mean a decent weapon / armour / items. Shallow i know but, hey everyone likes interesting (though not necessarily powerful) loot!
 
And as a side note i am finding when i go online there are loads of folks around...

Heck, I wouldn't mind DM loot if it had my name on it. Even if it did nothing.

I'd just like to point out that we didn't ban Kotenku. He wrote that into his post as a 4chan allusion.

On the topic of favorites. We enjoy roleplaying with characters and players who are interesting, just as you do. There are some characters who I find incredibly boring, despite how I respect the player, so I invest my time elsewhere. I can has fun said that good behavior goes rewarded. Well, I notice that offering rewards to players who perform exceptional roleplaying involving others often acts as a model for other players. I don't believe we do this to a level in which it's obnoxious, but we do offer more attention to those who are interesting and actively go out of their way to involve others, and I am extremely generous in helping characters who involve players that have not been in plots before.

QuoteI would like to take this moment to point out that there is an entire universe of dramatic possibility beyond the standard EfU fare, that is to say: angry men with swords expressing their faint disapproval of absolutely everything and everyone around them, and occasionally beating the shit out of anyone who doesn't like it.

The second type is far more prevalent : those who toady up to the angry men with swords and choose to have their characters believe the angry men when they deny slaughtering all the children in front of everybody.  The second type is what allows the first type to thrive.  "Well, he has too many consumables so I'm just going to suck up like the other 90%, I realy don't want to find a gank squad waiting for me when I come out of the next quest I do."
 
If you lay player cowardice and apathy at the feet of the Dms, you are asking for high powered npcs that will oppose the angry men with swords for you, or maybe for having them caught in a sudden storm and fried in their Full-Plate-That-Nobody-Else-Has.  That isn't fair either.
 
As for the spice, I agree that it's very, very hard.  It always has been.  Difficult spice is a staple of this server.  Some find it fun, some find it frustrating.  Almost no one will turn down a DM quest or leave when spice begins, because deep down most people want the entertainment.  They want to see things suddenly become a serious struggle for survival, and they want to weather a difficult event.

Merry christmas!

I think it's very cool for the DMs to listen to this feedback.

One thing that might really improve the server is for the DMs to increase their encouragement, support, and guidance of players or factions that oppose the established powers.  Not just to make it a giant and endless cycle of "King of the Mountain", but for the story itself.  I know they already do these things, but there seems to be a need for more of it based on the comments of many here.

It is a fact that there are players with an overwhelming mastery of the mechanics, and the time to play many, many hours a day.  If these people get significant DM support, they are nearly invincible forces.  That's ok, as long as there is something that can eventually, somehow knock them down or out.  And must everyone die?  Wouldn't it be cool to see a "has been" come back and do something different?  A gang leader become a priest of Helm?  A fallen paladin working in a seedy bar?  These things don't happen when players are executed EVERY TIME they are defeated.  I'd like to see DMs make some of these characters NPCs.  

I also think NPCs can play a big role in keeping the playing field level enough to keep the story going.  Eumond Hararamous says to his PC friend that has been struggling to combat the evil of a secret cult of Bane....."Priest of Ilmater, here is the Crucifix of Anuirin.  An ancient relic of the Triad.  If you place it upon your brow, you will be invincible and able to slay the mightiest of enemies, but it's power will drain your mortal shell and end your time on this plane."

That makes for a hawt storyline I think.  Of course the guy has to earn it, but that would be pretty neat, yet ultimately fair.  

And here's the biggest truth I've seen.  It's all about equilibrium.  That's what made the old setting rock.  Ebb and flow.  Wasn't so much good vs. evil or law vs. chaos, but faction vs. faction.  

But somehow, the best players seem to do the best job playing evil characters and in evil factions.  For all of you that say its cyclical, that Team Good rules sometimes, then Team Evil, I challenge you to name how many good aligned characters dominated and ultimately completely controlled the server, vs. the evil ones.

The Montezzi faction was so awesome, yet so dominant that it completely choked off potential enemies even before they were powerful enough to challenge them.  That destroys equilibrium, and makes for "if you can't beat them, join them."  This in turn requires the DMs to help those trying to oppose the juggernauts of the server to make for a better story in my opinion.

Lastly, it seems its far more interesting for the DMs to interact with, and help out the evil characters and factions.  This means that they have to consciously make an attempt to improve the opponents of the evils, in order to attract PCs to that faction in order to promote a more interesting plot.  The New Dunwarren and Greycloaks are a good example of that.  Things like that need some serious DM help, instead of getting a cloak with Light spell 5/day and say, "go get 'em, Poindexter!"

This may also take some of the excellent players on this server to take up the oderous mantle of RPing some of these types of characters.  I think that really made the old setting rock when there was a badass Seeker duking it out with a powerful Spellguard Agent, or a tough Watchman going up against a thug from Lower - you get the point.

Hopefully this is a helpful contribution, and excuse the length of my thoughts here.

Merry Christmas Mort!

DM's will help people who make an influence. They won't help the pansy who just quest spams. Also, you know, ASKING for a DM possession for Eumond to help you combat the cult of bane might give some results. NPC's are people two, and they care what happens to this settlement. So ASKING them for HELP might come to something.

Efforts= results

Sitting around waiting for help= nothing.

I think there's plenty of very legitimate criticism in this thread that I hope to see addressed. It's no secret that right after EFU:A began a whole bunch of our most active DMs (including myself) disappeared into thin air. We all had reasons for it that superseded DM responsibilities. This combined with such factors as: our server no longer being listed on gamespy, super long up-times (an unfortunate down-side of our super stable new server), DMs basically dropping the ball entirely in terms of factions, etc. definitely harmed the server. This is all being fixed.

I have been IG some for the past few couple days, and although I'm headed on an 11 day boat trip, hope to be around a bit more when I come back. Several other of our DMs have finished with exams and I expect to see improved activity.

Some of the criticism expressed in this thread I do not find myself agreeing with. People may express it if they wish, no one is getting banned (please ignore Kotenku's self troll), and as always serious issues should be directed to escapefromunderdark@gmail.com

I find myself with the urge to defend this project's philosophy, to argue that we do not encourage a simple "culture of pwn," that we do (when active) help players to accomplish fun things, and that we do try to keep things fair and balanced and do not tilt towards one particular alignment or another.

I don't want to invest the time though, so players can choose to believe what they will. Play or do not play, EFUA will remain and continue to try to provide meaningful gaming entertainment to those who choose to participate.

One more thing. The argument, advanced occasionally since Day One of EFU, that PvP was the only way to accomplish something meaningful in our environment has always bothered me. It has bothered me because I have the perspective of someone who sees all the things that players accomplish and how often no PvP is involved at all. Really, the best way to accomplish things has generally been just whoever can bring more PCs to their side/involve more players - but, there is some truth that at times towards the end days of EFU PvP was more prominent.

One of the very specific changes we wanted to make with EFU:A was focus on this idea that the best rewards would go to those who would build, rather than destroy. As an example, in EFU PCs loved to bomb and burn down buildings. We prided ourselves in being responsive to PC actions, and generally would go to remarkable efforts to ensure that the module was always updated with these piles of rubble and so on, and I think some players got the idea that bombing/burning/destroying was a pretty good thing to do.

Regardless, in EFUA we wanted - and want - to particularly promote the idea that characters that build neat stuff (factions, rituals, ceremonies, whatever) will get extra special attention from us. This is, as before, independent of alignment.

Please understand, this is not a call for more DM messages requesting supervision for crafting-related things (we have a thread for that), but rather - doing stuff that is productive and interesting and makes us want to watch you, rather than feeling obligated to.

So yes, that is our intent. "Building" rather than destroying.

Anyway, when I get back I look forward to DM'ing casually. I will log in every once in a while, usually advertise my DM quests publicly, and enjoy making loot for characters I like. I hope there will be plenty of sweet characters around when I do, I expect there will be.

I don't mean to imply that any DM did this out of spite, or maliciousness.

I think it has been done. That the DMs aren't aware of how pervasive the feeling is through the player base, not even I did until a few people thanked me for my thread (which is a far cry from the flaming I expected).

At base, I think DMs make mistakes. Players mistake DM intentions.

However, not once have I seen a real open effort to address the problems despite threads like this popping up fairly steadily since EfU:A started. I still play EfU, but I'm not wasting time e-mailing a complaint in where I don't think it'll be taken seriously by a DM-team (that well-intentioned and composed mostly of people I really enjoy interacting with) but that remains largely convinced that the problem only exists with certain players who "choose" to see a problem.
 
Even if the problems are just a matter of perception, problems are perceived and I'd like to think the DMs will actually recognize that even *that* is a problem that could use addressing.

I personally choose to log in and have fun with people I enjoy playing NWN with; including DMs and regular players. I plan to continue to do so. When things aren't fun, I plan to log out and do something that is. No big deal.

The notion of you have to be great at PvP to get things done is one that concerns me greatly. Mostly because, Well, I suck at PvP but still believe I enjoy the server and move things along.

The thing is, you just have to look at problems differently, and not every "Conflict" has to end with you murdering another character. Yes, PvP death is substantial if you make it so (I try to), and it can be a great way to stoke the flames of conflict, but it should not be a Be all-end all.

The DMs are often supportive of non-PvP or Non-FD results to situations, and even some of us players love helping out.

You just have to shift your way of thinking from "That guy just made me mad! Let's kill'em!" To "That guy just made me mad. Let's crush him".

I almost like to think it is more super-villain-esque, to -not- kill the enemy, but to make their life a living hell. Sure, The Joker would have loved to splatter Batman's face all over the wall. But he didn't. There was alot of fun to be had in that story.

Another issue I want to bring up here, while not so prevalent here, but to old EFU, was Executions.

Yes, there have been jail breaks, yes there have been other cool ways to do executions, but I honestly believe an execution should be reserved for the most heinous of criminals. And even then it isn't final, but so many times I witnessed great characters crushed early by being executed after one mistake and being caught by the guards.

I've not been lucky enough to witness a trial here on EFUA, but I would honestly like to see Execution used as a severly last resort for characters, akin to a way to put away the most evil of villains, not just someone who killed one person, or comitted treason.

It really adds to the story to throw out enemies, or disfigure them and leave them aside, or trap them within city limits, or that kind of thing. To me it allows for far more intrique, far more store, and far more fun than "Well fuck. I was caught. I'm standing here going to be executed, time to think up a new character".

Some preemptive feedback, if you will. Take from it what you wish.

I've been in a situation where the DM told the player to FD me.

I was quite cross.


Then I realized.


We can all have fun regardless.

If It's so pervasive/ingrained, I doubt it's going to change :( . So, perhaps it's best to just change your mind on something else, chill out, try other servers and then come back if you are still interested. 90% of the angsty posters I never saw their characters in the last weeks. So it's not really feedback based on recent happenings as Dan was looking forward, it's more the usual disc that some have grown accustomed to playing.

DMs do make mistakes, plenty of things I wished had ended up differently or that I would have done differently in hindsight. Sometimes, rolls, bad judgment on the part of gauging difficulty or unexpected decisions by PCs led to consequences which were undesired. It's easy for us to sense when a player is angry, his/her character usually becomes dulled, talks/emotes less, takes a hopeless disposition or become angry quite easily. So, there is certainly a learning process that happens, but it isn't based on angsty posts, thought.

Other times, however, we dont do squat and are just looking and then the party gets stomped (for some reason) as soon as we possess something to make it taunt the PCs or anything, and then we sort-of get blame despite the only crime was simply being there and observing. Similarly, when we prevent monsters from being lured or make monsters who are within ear-shot of the battle attack the group.

The angsty rumination session that goes on behind in tells or on IRC, however, is the real problem. Never has been healthy, ever! It's not venting, it's only reinforcing your negative beliefs.

Change your clique. Talk to different people. Mix in. Avoid ruminative/negative people/talking and try not to be jealous of the positive/zen ones. That's the beauty of secret accounts as you can really start a blank page and hook up with different players than your usual clique.

If you have a problem, dont take an oppositional/defiant disposition that will turn anyone to whom that message is directed on the defensive. It really doesn't work!

I wasn't going to reply to this, but I've been following it and decided to after all; as the opportunity has arisen in a thread that will hopefully be taken by the DM staff in the manner that I perceive it was meant ... I'll go ahead and give this a go. It's apt to be long-winded, so I'll ask for pardons now.
 
As I'm reading through this I find myself agreeing with Lets Play, Oro, ICan, and Gwydion. Not all of it, but a majority of it. And I've talked to a few others that feel that way as well.
 
I'm one of the "backchannels and PMs in IRC" people when I have gripe, complaint, or am just generally pissy. I usually keep it there for a variety of reasons which vary from situation to situation.
 
Why don't people bring it out in the open? True or not, it's because there's a feeling of "nothing's going to change so why bother" or a fear of some sort of reprisal from both players and DM's. And to be honest, it has at times been true.
 
 
As I look at the server now, I'm reminded of when the Montezzi faction was at it's peak. People look back at that time of the server with a certain nostalgia now, but at the time the frustration level was running quite high. For some there was very much a feeling that your options were to jump on the band wagon, get PvP'd, or just not interact with a chunk of the server (therefore missing out on the action/plots and the DM love). I see the same cycle happening yet again here.
 
For me personally ... I don't enjoy that type of "in your face" gaming as a constant way of playing. I'm not all that mechanically adept at this game, so I choose to avoid the situations. That means I miss out on a lot of what's going on, or play with the "fear factor" when I do choose to skirt the edges of it.  But that is they way -I- choose to play.  But I digress.
 
It is also true, no matter how much anyone wants to deny it, that there are cliques and favorites here. It's human nature, people flock together. It would be that way no matter where you go. Where it becomes an issue is when it starts too look blatantly obvious. When it starts to feel like you have to be part of the "in crowd" to accomplish anything at all, no matter how small, it's very discouraging.
 
Let me give an example of what I mean ...
 
You have a giganto-battle that involves a majority of the people logged in against some big hairy army/beast/whatever that's pretty central to a major plot. By the skin of their teeth the PC's manage to win. Now, the PC's involved are there for all sorts of reasons. They heard the warning call, they were ordered there, they stumbled on the battle, etc. Mr. Big Bad Hero (or Heros) are given the loot to distribute. Well, what will end up happening is that some get the goodies and some don't. Those that don't inevitably are the ones that either stumbled onto the battle or came because they heard the call. They end up walking away feeling like "well wtf did I bother with that for?" (in this specific example, a DM plopping goodies in inventory would even up things, though that would be very work intensive)
 
So the division of "haves" and "have-nots" increases. Eventually those that feel like they're in the "have-not" category will give up entirely. Why continue to beat your head against a brick wall.
 
 
Whether or not these things are strictly true is completely irrelavent. The fact remains that it is what players are perceiving as happening or seeing happening, therefore it does become it's own truth.
 
So ... all that being said ... what does it mean for the DM's and players?
 
For the players ... it means stepping out of our comfort zone sometimes. For the more dynamic players it means sometimes watching out for the less dynamic players. Sometimes it means bending when you don't want to or maybe not completely IC to do so.
 
For the DM's ... I truly hope you hear what is trying to be said in this thread and not take it as a personal assault. As the "leaders" of this community, a certain amount of work and responsibility falls to your shoulders, fairly or unfairly. Choosing to dismiss the problem because you may not see it, or telling us to find another server doesn't help. It only magnifies the problem. So, sometimes it may mean looking out for that shy, boring, non-involved player/PC. Sometimes it will mean kicking Mr. Big Bad in the chomps a bit. Sometimes it does mean playing baby-sitter when all you really want to do is give them a pacifier and tell them to STFU. I don't envy the DM's the job they have before them. It's hard and it's time consuming. And a lot of times it's a very thankless job. But, it is what it is ... and as our "leaders" we look to you for many things. That is the role you have taken.
 
 
I'm not saying this should be a "Happy Mary Sunshine" server where everything is always fair and equal. This is a hard server in a hard world. We choose to play here because overall we enjoy the game, the setting, and the community that is unique to this place.
 
What I am saying, is that when things like this come up, and there's a handful of people that are saying the same thing ... it does need to be looked at and addressed. It wouldn't come up if there weren't at least some truth behind it.

Frankly, I want a Happy Mary Sunshine server. Let's work on that, okay? Geez.

Just to give an opposeing viewpoint, I have had a pc back here now for a few weeks, maybe a month at Christamss. He has literally no gold. He has no items, save what he is wearing, and those are mundane for the most part. He is level 4again....for the 5th or sixth time, since I started him. The DM's have had to bail me out of a few diffrent buggy places I got myself into due to my own ignorance of the new map/game world. (Stuck in the DM area being one). All this, and he is still one of the best times I have had playing a character..so items/gold/levles do not seem to matter unless you let them.
-To keep with the OP of this thread, there are alot of areas that need cleaning up, transitions to no where, NPC's that seem crucial that do nothing as of yet, but I am sure that will come in time.
-as  a whole, I am finding this setting far more engrossing then EFU, and that is a 180 from where I was when we made the switch.
-Only suggestion I can make is try and find more DM's, of quality which you already have. A tall order to be sure. Espeacially in late night PST and Aussie TZ's but that has been said already.

The point Oro brought up about overpowering spice is something I'd like to bring up as well.  Recently, the majority of spice I've encountered has tended to be ramping up the difficulty of combat and throwing in new bad guys to shout menacing things, which is cool, but I also used to see a lot more spice that involved diplomacy, turned the quest around (monsters hire you to do something else), and that sort of thing, which I haven't seen much of lately (then again, the one time this came up for me recently, I ruined it by going into a blood rage and charging).  I always thought it was cool when the monsters paid you off to go somewhere else.  I can even remember one situation where we were hired as bodyguards to protect some goblins from a "questing group" of NPCs that was coming in to raid their lair.

As for the rewarding of PvP, I do not think I have seen characters rewarded for wiping out factions, or mercilessly targeting other PCs for FD and looting.  I have frequently seen custom loot disappear into thin air off the subdued or dead PCs in what I would assume is a DM effort to maintain some semblance of balance.  Usually, good is as much to blame for its own demise as evil is.  The prominent, successful evil characters who have PvPed or FDed seldom hunt out enemies to kill.  Usually, when they FD, it is a result of being challenged or ambushed and emerging successful.  The cases I have seen where they hunted down and killed people were frequently retribution for some action taken specifically against them.  Granted, there are many things the evil PCs are doing to draw animosity from the good PCs (something evil should be doing, in my opinion), but it is unfair to lay the blame for prevalent PVP on them alone.

I appreaciate folks being candid, and although we can't please everyone, we'll most certainly keep your critiques in mind. Thanks for not getting all petty and accusational.

As is ALWAYS the case, most of the critique from people in this thread ultimately stems from sheer lack of player perspective of how things are on an overall level.

Really, unless you're complaining about a specific incident that your PC was involved in, you really don't have the information available to complain about anything in general, especially not the the state of all-encompassing matters which span the entire server, such as a perceived preponderance to reward a certain style of play for example.

You log on for a few hours everyday on a server that runs 24/7, and see events from only the narrowest of windows (what your PC sees) on a server where dozens of PCs are interacting with both the virtual world and other PCs ceaselessly.

You do not know the stats of other PCs, you do not know the agenda of other PCs, you do not know what other PCs have done or are in the process of doing, you do not know whats in other PC inventories, you do not know which PCs have secret deals with other PCs, you do not know about a million things you know when you are a DM. You basically know jack shit, really.

Coming back as a player now from being a DM, I can honestly say that this is the real problem. Whereas I used to be filled in with the pure facts concerning every little event or incident that might warrant complaining from PCs (and 95% of the time it was unwarranted lol, as with most things probably in this thread), to now only having a small level of overall information available, I realise how ultimately stupid it would be for me to make dissertations about things like server cultures, the dominance of certain PCs/groups, etc.

And so, I'd just encourage everyone to make an interesting PC they enjoy playing, with a clear agenda, and pursue it IG as best they are able, through the thick and the thin. Victim syndrome isn't a fun development for anybody, especially not you.

As always, if you aren't Caddies, you have no clue what you're talking about ;)

QuoteWhether or not these things are strictly true is completely irrelavent. The fact remains that it is what players are perceiving as happening or seeing happening, therefore it does become it's own truth.

I'll re-state this point.  
 
You're correct Caddies that players don't see everything that the DM staff sees.  However, as with the case with any player, we can only go by what we see when we are logged in.  
 
No, players are not all-knowing, nor do they have the information available to them that the DM staff does.  That does not minimize how they feel or what they perceive.  Patting someone on the head and saying "There, there .. you don't know everything that's going on" doesn't help anything.  All it does is make players feel more frustrated and more unheard.
 
It is irrelevant if what they are seeing or feeling is technically true.  It is their truth and it is the place from which they are coming from.  That's what they are seeing and feeling when they log in to play.  
 
 
And just as a side note ... if someone builds what they see is an interesting PC and still cannot get involved no matter how hard they try ... does not mean it's an uninteresting PC or that they're playing a victim when they voice their frustration.  There is a multitude of reasons why it could be happening.

Quote from: DangerousDan;101317I appreaciate folks being candid, and although we can't please everyone, we'll most certainly keep your critiques in mind. Thanks for not getting all petty and accusational.

Awesome troll.

Was not trolling!

Mum's the word.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it is irrelevant.

Caddies is absolutely correct, and it is conceded, that no one except maybe the DMs have a full view of what's going on.  But the implication that because you don't have a full view you should just assume that things are tra-la-la, since you don't know any better, well, that's a rather arrogant standpoint.

ESPECIALLY given a thread where the DMs have asked specifically for feedback.  I'm certain that EfU:A's DMs know what Caddies knows: that no one has a full view.  Yet they asked for input anyway.

The DMs don't need anyone to tell the playerbase what sort of feedback is desired, needed, listened to, off-base, etc.  They don't need a receptionist trying to stop the bullshit traffic on its way in the door.  I'm certain they can sift through what's relevant and what's garbage for themselves.

-------------

My feedback:

• I've been having fun.  Can't play as often for the moment and that is sad, because of the fun I'm having.
• PC "Villains", you know who you are, I think your characters are well developed and well played.  Bravo.
• I think that NPC support for factions is very unbalanced.  Stygians have a very heavy, visible, and (to some) menacing presence.  Other factions have little to no NPC presence.
• I would like to see more missions for the factions I'm involved in granted specifically by the NPCs involved in those factions.
• Be wary of 'Spice Overload'.  One session of a spiced adventure consisted of spamming the small party with a particularly nasty little spawn.  Then the boss was ubered up to untouchable and anytime we tried something new on him that might work, he suddenly had the counter to that to keep him invincible.  I ultimately enjoyed the session, but can't say the same for the others with me, all of whom died.
• Loot distribution.  It surprises me when I hear people who have been playing for a while talk about how they've gotten no DM loot.  DM loot is special and makes your PC feel that much more 'customized' to the player.

QuoteAnd so, I'd just encourage everyone to make an interesting PC they enjoy playing, with a clear agenda, and pursue it IG as best they are able, through the thick and the thin. Victim syndrome isn't a fun development for anybody, especially not you.

Caddies, I think most of the trouble comes from people who do exactly this and then suffer through no DM attention or DM attention that gets their player killed with nothing to really show for it. I played a character for months that was working very hard to involve other players, actually working to help inform players (see more rumors sugesstion), and never got a DM to posses a single NPC, or put up a sign, or even give me a key to the faction I belonged to for months. Its was enormously frustrating, especially when characters like your own were doing essentially the same thing and seemingly getting everything they wanted.

Hell, we even got accepted to the same faction at the start, the fleet, and while you managed to get outfitted and go on cool trips and gernerally enjoy yourself, I never moved from an accepted application to actually spending a second in the faction because no DM's had the time to get me set up. When people talk about favortism there is no question there is slight nod to all those former DM's that are now players.

Mort, your responses almost always boil down to shifting the blame on we the the player. It just makes all of this seem so pointless. You've asked us what we think could be done better, we've told you. So, take that for what it is. There are a decent number of people who are unhappy, if you want to make them happier then listen to them and make some changes. If you'd rather we just went away then say that.

I swear, sometimes the DM-PC relationship here feels like an old marriage. Both sides nag each other and complain and nothing ever changes.

QuoteHell, we even got accepted to the same faction at the start, the fleet, and while you managed to get outfitted and go on cool trips and gernerally enjoy yourself, I never moved from an accepted application to actually spending a second in the faction because no DM's had the time to get me set up. When people talk about favortism there is no question there is slight nod to all those former DM's that are now players.

This is exactly my point.

People reference something that happened to them (one player out of dozens and dozens) and then make a sweeping statement. In this case, you perceived that I was given more advantages than you because I am 'favored', then go on to qualify that as a blanket statement for the whole server.

The reality is that I joined weeks before you, received one DM quest (the induction) which was run for us by Deputy only days before he left and I outfitted myself except the plate, which was granted after killing a higher-level slaver PC ala the First Bolt creed. There were tonnes of instances where I couldn't get a DM for a possession at all, and indeed couldn't further some of my PC's agendas due to lack of DM activity (most specifically Deputy leaving, which also ironically is perhaps the SOLE reason your dude did not get into the faction for so long, apart from the fact you logged in like five times a week).

Players not knowing the reality of the situation is the biggest problem, like I said before. Despite what WWind says, perceptions mean nothing and are in fact counterproductive most of the time, as in the case above.

This lack of information and reliance on perception to guage things is not the fault of the player. Its the nature of the beast. However, to mitigate it the best thing to do is perservere with your PC even when DM activity is low, and do your own thing until things look up.

Spend less time trying to assess how you're going in relation to others, then trying to come up with theories as to why that might be, and spend more time attempting to rock out even when it seems its not going to be appreciated. Do you play this game to one up others or to tell your PC's story?

I know I haven't played regularly for some time, now, and this might seem like it's out of place, but I'd just like to say I agree with Cruzel on one of his points there.

That point is that of the little nudges. Beyond just making a quest more challenging (that works too), giving the player those small hints, really simple events that might motivate them to do things they did not expect to, small situations in quest with the potential to generate conflict, that really simple mission of "go look for the generic orc/slaver/bandit/seeker who's been up to something."

Those little things are an amazing way to get people to be proactive and involve other people, when they usually wouldn't. I'd suggest doing something like that every once in a while, if you don't do that already.

Interesting comments all around

A couple of things come to mind when dealing with satisfaction and fun.

Mechanical
Some are better at the mechanics than others.  For example my present ranger has high Hide and Move Silently but is constantly being ganked by spiders cats, and goblin assassins.  It makes it just about impossible to get to the other places in the server that I need to be.  

Others have mentioned that they can easily get about the island sneaking about.  I applaud these players who understand the mechanics and can do what I cannot.  Telling me to use invisible potions at 180 to 200 a pop, means that for every time I get on I must use anywhere between 400 to 800 in gold just to go from home to the Zig and back.  I don’t plan on questing every time I log on and I am not aware of quests that will provide such potions or gold to my PC.  So unfortunately I am limited in my playing areas due to choosing to play an outsider along with not being able to actually get around.  

Do I then request to make the server easier to sneak around or do I suck it up and work with what I have got?

PVP
Hmm, I notice many mention this but I am not sure why.  What does PVP have to do with the quality of the server?  Depending upon what kind of PC you make will in effect determine whether you will be heavily into PVP or if it is going to be a rare event.  Choosing to make a PC that will be in Lawful vs Chaos faction and vice versa will ensure more PVP than a non committal Gondite or merchant.  Of course you might end up being a target of a certain group by your being who you are, well you just ahve to deal with it.

RP/Story
I am here to have fun with friends.  I do not crave DM attention. Nor do I run in fear from it.  I enjoy making slightly odd characters and interact with others.  What fun it was to have Zebulon having arguments in the midst of making sendings down in the UD, being a faction leader with poor charisma, getting drunk and spitting everywhere.  My friendly neighborhood Loviataran, preaching whenever possible, asking people who had healed him to hit him, or trying to make it clear that as a LN cleric this religion was not evil.

Do clerics preach?  How can clerics become wand and potion merchants?  In the real world, one would get benefits of a church only by being a member.  I have seen various bards whose only bardish element is to use their magic song.  Where are the stories, poems or actual verse?  Are they only reserved for the competition for where they get a prize?  I would like to see more scrutiny by DMs of such multiclassing as the player appears not to be anything like that class.

People like secrets and it feels good to have one.  It has always been that factions get secrets and do their best to keep it.  Others feel left out when they don’t know what’s going on, but don’t want to join a particular faction for some reason.  I would think in order to create long lasting faction vs faction, vis-à-vis Spellguard vs Seekers, one cannot let either faction disappear over night.  It must be clear that there is DM support for both groups.  Of course just by making a faction today to oppose a group will not and should not get automatic support just because one wishes so.  I think some people expect automatic and quick results.  One way to make it clear is for DM to politely respond with how that faction could get results.

Now if people, PC or DM-NPC, do not react how I think they would react, do I complain that this is not realistic or do I work with what I have?

Ability to enact change
Well being actually able to change the environment is a big perk compared to the original solo quest games of NWN.  While it is understood that effort I required to build something, I think it really is unclear what that effort is?  How long must a PC clean out a ruin before it becomes a hideout?
I don’t play everyday for a few hours at a time.  If it is for the PC’s who do this and see actual server change to their efforts that is fine, as long as it is clear.  How long must a faction hang out in a place to make it “real”?

Some people play better than others, I shall do my best.
Some RP better, I shall do my best.
Some people can get a sign up when I cannot, I shall spit on that sign, ... oh wait he is stuck in the UD - scratch that.
I had pizza and salad for dinner today, yum.

After reading Howland's posts, I've come up with some good feedback.  I know it's going to sound biased due to my character, but it's not - it's biased due to my playstyle. :p  (I like to build things.)

If the point of the new server is to try and build things, I think DM's should turn their focus almost exclusively to player factions.  If new DM factions must be made, then they should be similar to the Society.

DM factions shouldn't come in with huge guns and huge support in terms of power or (seemingly) overwhelming advantage.  It's perfectly acceptable for players to, over time, aid a faction in becoming the top dog by earning it.  But I don't think any faction should come in, and automatically become a power player.

Player Factions in my opinion, are generally a good measurement of the interests of the players at the time.  Instead of new DM factions, DM NPC's joining these factions would be nice.  If the factions collapse due to IC events, then they collapse.  If they get wiped out, they get wiped out.  

Rather than viewing it as a negative, I view it as a net positive, by eliminating one power group, it opens up the door for another power group to take its place.  It creates conflict and an interesting story.

The one major complaint that I have always had, as someone who frequently plays almost exclusively with minor DM factions or player factions, is that getting things for a player faction is sometimes like pulling teeth.  I think it is because the DM's are afraid of showing favoritism to a particular player or a particular faction... but really, it drives me nuts sometimes.  I just wish it was easier to impact the game world and make desired changes a reality.

So far, I've only found two ways to do this:  be extremely persistent or find a DM who is OOCly interested in your faction and wants to follow it.  Those two things generally seem to work, but even then seeing an actual impact on the game world is still difficult!

I think this is why so many took the approach of blowing things up on EfU.  They saw direct and immediate change to the game world.  They could see their impact.  I believe if people trying to build things could more easily do such, then more people would build rather than destroy.

Thread is winar

Also:

QuoteOutside the world of gaming, I've accomplished some pretty remarkable things in my life, usually in the face of skilled, experienced, and disciplined opposition.

More info plz

Comment

I will say that this server has made some steady progress in becoming a fun and interactive server.  I have seen first hand DM’s who rewarded PC’s for in-game plotting between other characters and factions.  Those rewards might have been in the way of XP, coin, NPC possessions, etc.  This has positively influenced my game play as of late, which has resulted in a renewed energy of playing my character.  So, I was very appreciative of those DM's who took the time to eavesdrop on my conversations and IG plotting and provide incentives when they deemed it appropriate.

Moreover, I would provide the following advice to increasing the quality of game play for the PC’s and DM’s alike:

1. DM possession of NPC’s and interacting with the PC community is a very important aspect that counters the traditional questing cultures.  When morale in the Watch is bad, then an occasional possession of a character that mumbles and curses about his life within the watch as he conducts his patrols might be enough for that light bulb to go off in the head of the PC that possible IG angles could be present.  Random NPC possessions also give the PC’s some idea of the personality of the NPC, as well as any potential strengths and/or weaknesses.  

2. Continue to keep an eye out for those PC’s who are getting other players involved (whether they are for team evil, against team evil, or innocent bystanders) in plots.  This increases the randomness of this server and the feelings that PC’s need to find some allies within the very dangerous city of Ymph.

3. Provide customized loot (even if it is not enchanted or magically significant) to those players who venture out into the wilderness, ruins, or Underdark for exploration or research.  This might even spark a particular interest in a hidden aspect of the server that could come to life if adequate IG play is done.  I get this idea from EfU when the deep gnome doll and journal was found in Dunwarren, which had the key in its leg.  I thought it was sad and haunting that little girl wrote that chosen are about and her father as not returned.  Perhaps something similar to this could be inserted into the server.  (If it already is and I have not come across it, then please excuse this comment).

Obviously, DM's get enjoyment from the server when PC's are putting critical thought to their goal establishment, and persistency with pursuing these goals.  I think if the DM team would continue to adhere to these three comments, it will do much to encourage players to reach outside their comfort zone to establish some interesting play for all involved.

Might be off topic, but in general, I think everybody just needs to calm down more, there should not be any quarrels between players and DMs. Its kind of like the players think that the DMs are out to get them, ruin their time and vice versa, but I believe this is clearly unfounded. At the meantime, I think some of the DMs need to be less defensive and it most likely will help if there is less trolling from DMs on these kind of forum posts and threads, though I think that posts like Howland's and Dan's are quite good and acceptable!

Lastly, I feel there should be more positive criticism (even if players obviously do not know as much as DMs) instead of too much whining and also it seems to me that every criticism thread made results in some players and DMs trying to shoot down (either directly or indirectly) those who criticize, lets have less of that please. Though it should be said that most of the time EfU/EfU:A isn't as bad or horrible as some players think and some may have been exaggerated, but at the same time the players who criticize are not a bunch of lazy whiners or as bad as some might think either and some of the problems brought up are valid, and should be taken into consideration.

I agree with wern8 completely FWIW

Wern8, you summed it up well I think, even though personally I am more inclined to disagree with Oro/Icanhasfun etc.

I think players should also keep in mind that there have been all of 2, maybe 3 seriously active DMs in recent months to account for maybe 200 or so players. Shit ain't a cakewalk you know? Cut them some slack, or else pay them to do better.

On the other hand, I have sometimes felt that I was in a certain situation where I was being excluded, DMs were playing favorites etc. and it was a bit frustrating, but when I sat back and looked at from an objective point of view, maybe if it were me I would have done the same. Sometimes IC events require secrecy which may seem like favoritism. Whats the point of a secret cult of baddies if EVERYONE KNOWS ABOUT THEM!? Whats the point of a secret conspiracy against the government etc. if it's common knowledge? If you want to be in the know, make an effort to find out. Don't shout favoritism when something big happens and the DMs helped it out. Theyre just building story for you to play with. That info had been there all along, it wasn't impossible to discover.

On another note, I think in the end the players should keep in mind that while getting NPC possessed to personally help out your character/getting DM loot is awesome and everyone wants it, but once you start to expect it, there is a problem. Try playing just to actually -play- with other people. Sometimes sitting in the Kingsman and just having a discussion about your viewpoints, things that should be done etc. can be rewarding and fun. Find allies, build rivalries, focus more on interacting with other players instead of NPCs and DMs.

Maybe then there won't be so much concern about which player got this attention and who needs what NPC possessed etc.

Play with the players, yeah?

Word!

No one has the entire story

No one knows everything

Yes, DM's make mistakes,

Yes, Players make mistakes.

The DM's are there to help you.

Not to smash you.

Ask for help on IRC, they will help you when they get around to it.

Don't worry, be happy, smash them enemies!

First off, I love everyone in here even when I disagree with them. Even you Caddies! I hope none of this is taken personally by anyone. In regards to favoritism and DM interaction and so forth, I'll reiterate my previous statement. Promote some more DM's. This way more of the server actually has a chance to interact with them, to do the things that really only a DM can do, or to simply be made to feel more special. We all want our characters to feel important, at least to us if not to everyone, and a DM reward or two (whether it be in the form of an item or just an NPC possesion) goes a long, long way towards this. I understand the "play with the players" mentality. It's what we all do. But when you have a group of people who are looking at one or two PC's for leadership, to get things done that only a DM can do, and those things never happen its enormously frustrating for all the players involved. More DM's solves this.

Quote from: PanamaLane;101519Promote some more DM's. .

And there's the kicker.

The server is understaffed.

yes we need more DMs

But I personally would rather wait with an understaffed server, than have underqualified and incompetent DM's brought about out of necessity. As I'm sure you know, an incompetent DM can have the opposite effect as competent DMs end up cleaning up any mess generated by his or her fail. If there were people worthy of DMing, they would have asked them by now.

 I agree with a lot of the criticisms in this thread, but I think any talking of specific and real changes to the server and the attitudes surrounding it can only happen when we have a full strength DM team,

Doubtless I'm paraphrasing, but earlier someone said "Yes, we need DMs, but we need the right ones" - And they were supremely correct.

New DMs!

I nominate Oroborous, core, Secutor, Kotenku, Winston Martin, Shifting Allegiances, Kiaring, Listen in Silence and Cruzel for starters.  I enjoyed RPing with Mort, DeputyC, Dangerous Dan, and knew they would be good ones, and my suggestions would be good ones too.  

Where would this server be without Mort and Dan stepping up to pick up the slack lately?  

Come on you cagy vets!  It's time to be elevated to DM status!

No Kotenku for DM's.

He will kill his own avatar with a normal Kobold spawn.

This thread should not become about players nominating other players for DMs, because they really don't have a clue what being a DM requires!

Agreed, if someone wishes to be a DM, or at the least offer to help out as one, they should fill out an SOI, as it is expected of those who wish to help.

In the end, it's the DM's who make the decision, not playerbase. And I'm sure there's a logical reason (actually, there is, but I won't share it here).

Thanks again for your feedback, everyone. We'll be looking close at this and see how we can improve.

For the record I think Sternhund is also doing an excellent job with being involved with the playerbase. I havn't been around often, but I did log on a few days ago and had a blast.

What bothers me greatly is that “foig” bullshit. Okay, I realize you can’t get answers to the server’s mysteries out of the blue like that, but I mean… I have asked for simple things in the DM Answers forum such as how many people lived on the ziggurat and was told it was foig. Besides the fact no PC has any idea about this and the dms are too busy to possess npcs for things such as this, I believe this is evident for everyone this is common knowledge that anyone would possess, just as everyone has an approximate idea of how much people lives in his hometown! Just as anyone would know that there are apparently kids living under the ziggurat. Just two of many examples. Informations such as this  should go to the “rumors” thread, as everyone would know it.

QuoteDo clerics preach?  How can clerics become wand and potion merchants?  In the real world, one would get benefits of a church only by being a member.  I have seen various bards whose only bardish element is to use their magic song.  Where are the stories, poems or actual verse?  Are they only reserved for the competition for where they get a prize?  I would like to see more scrutiny by DMs of such multiclassing as the player appears not to be anything like that class.

That may be partly why EFU is perceived by some as being a PVP arena server. Curiously, I don’t see anyone else complaining about this, perhaps because  a lot of people do it; hells, I’ve done it also, making a goblin barbarian / fighter and not rping my barb class much. Yes, it seems that many players multiclass their characters in a way that will make them more powerful at pvp; or maybe it’s just my perception, and actually that full-plate fighter/bard brutal mercenary actually has artistic inclinations, it’s just nobody sees him when he excercises them. I said bard, but I could just as well have said rogue or ranger: all of them allow the player the unvaluable use of wands. And we know how useful a wand of shields, dispel, or hold person is, right guys?

Quote from: Thomas_Not_very_wise;101623No Kotenku for DM's.

He will kill his own avatar with a normal Kobold spawn.

Hahahahah
You're a doll, Deviant.

QuoteDo clerics preach? How can clerics become wand and potion merchants? In the real world, one would get benefits of a church only by being a member. I have seen various bards whose only bardish element is to use their magic song. Where are the stories, poems or actual verse?

This is a result of a playerbase that isn't interested in hearing clerics preach or bards perform.[/SIZE][/FONT]

First off to Nihm, yea, you're totally correct. And my first minor feedback note-- can DMs try to help players doing these sorts of things give something BACK to the audience? Maybe a small dose of XP for being "inspired"? Maybe some sort of extended "blessing" given to all who attend. Actually, that's a cool idea I'm going to use for my cleric... anyways, just an idea to toss around.

[Edit/Addition]

Haha, why not some sort of "edible" item that deteriorates on reset equivilant to a CMW potion or something. Call it a "Holy Wafer" or "Divine Blessing" or something.

I like that idea, Garem.

I have tried to preach etc. a few times IG with my cleric, had mixed 'success'. Certainly i think a perk to the audience would add some interest.

Hey, long as you try Yalta, I think it counts.


And for me, right now, I'm fairly impressed with what the DM's are doing.

Allow me to be blunt and possibly offensive for a few minutes, I need to get some things of my chest. This probably is a rant, but I'm going to try and make it constructive.

Alright, I've noticed that back when the Colony had no goverment, there were several attempts, we'll focus on Galleous' attempt. First of all, we were being fairly wide about recruitment and were bringing into effect laws, but dispite the fact we were openly looking for sources, we wouldn't get any DM support at all, other then Dogshead's two militia buddies, and he wasn't even aware of the Militia.

Granted, I DID turn down an offer for uniforms and keys, but think, the Stygians already lynched one of the militia, you honestly think a dwarf would accept a contract from those who did? Not very good for security. Unfortunetly, when I tried to get a DM to oversee crafting, of, say, a basic tunic for the militia, I got no answer. I wasn't even getting a response for what I needed to do, and that irked me a bit.

I am glad the DM's took some intrest after when Galleous held his meeting, but even then I felt it was minimal.

I noticed a considerible change when Hersilla ushered in her attempt at goverment, is this because of her being in a DM faction? I dunno, but to me it felt kind of cheap. It's not that I'm bashing anyone, it's just personal feelings.

Now more recently, I've been impressed with the DM's ability to inovate. I especially liked a situation at the Kingsman with two people barricaded in one of the rooms, and the were-boar senario.

And the Orcs, the quiet tension before battle certainly is having an effect, when I'm out there, I'm half expecting an orc attack, or at the very least a skirmish.

So for the finisher, just keep going DM's, you're doing a fine job.

For what it's worth, the thing about Galleous's attempt at forming the government and the problem with Old Port and the Stygians makes sense. A tiny community pops up within striking distance of an established city; obviously, the established city is going to be involved in the community's affairs whether they like it or not.

I can't comment on what went wrong, but perhaps more nudging/feedback/NPC responses might have had better results.

As long as you're trying, guys, it definitely counts!

Questions, sugestions and few 2 cents...

1. Why Ymph is to be a flashback of Underdark ? Same militia-religion-racial plots ?

2. Why focus at Undeads/Rizers/Zombies ? No Pirates, No Old Port rivals, No Wild Elfs ?

3. Why not another colony far from Zigg, maybe Bliss ?

4. There is life and fun for an above 8 level char?

All those are connected to a simple rule:  must have a magical number of players to born a concept or a plot.

Something void the "Blue Meanies" concept and something grow the "Archeological Society" concept.

Play the rules and be a DooM is an art, is more than make monsters and places, is think about what/how/where we will do next year.

That makes no sense.

He was asking why we had no elves, etc...

Quote from: "tooh"3. Why not another colony far from Zigg, maybe Bliss ?

It's not for lack of trying. I actually apped for Sated Shark Staff with the aim of attracting people over to Bliss and getting questing going from there, a ferry set up, but the app got turned down, then the Shark got burned down.

There *are* spawnpoints and groups operating outside the Ziggurat are, but these are only really "wilds" factions.

Currently your best bet is to work on getting a Gobsquat community going, since all the Half-orcs got banished outside or to there, and the Hanged Goblin has staff again.

No. I don't ask why EFU* don't have more specific races or classes, I talk about groups that share same concept and can sustain a RP with more than brute force and stuff. The server goes to a strict structure of order and any group need more than a DooM to alive. Need charisma to a concept or a character to sustain a number of player.

From Toril (NWN) to Nemedia (Conan) rip the half-elf, half-orc, elf, gnomes and make halfling be childrens and dwarfs be dwarfs.

At least I can try to say it in a funny way:
 
(http://www.carrieisgett.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/pancake-bunny.jpg)

For the record, I would say our current factional relationships do not really mirror Sanctuaries at all.

As of now, our current faction relationships are dramatically different from Sanctuary's.

You must completely disect tooh's posts to understand the thousands of acres of pure wisdom stowed beneath.

Only then will you know the true meaning.

I'm hoping this will change while I RP my new jester/bard, but it'd be a lot cooler to have more culture in EfU.

I don't want to compare anything being better than anything else, but I am saying that on a certain other server It's quite easy for a wizard to be encouraged to do wizardly things, a cleric preachy things, a bard entertainment things, and a rogue, sneaky things. Geeze, PCs need to start hiring PCs for their class traits.

Another thing Iv'e noticed that just doesn't make a lot of sense to me, and that's especially emberassing when a New player tells me the following:

So, basically Iv'e appeared at random onto a strange island, along with several others, surrounded by nightrisers. But- I am also very much within reach to access the means to return to my home, by means of ship, or the stygian armada, fleet of the first bolt, etc. Why would anyone stay here?

I was unable to answer.

Another thing, why are we more worried about evil druids, orcs, and nightrisers? We should be worried about something else, Pirates mayhaps? I don't know if it's foig to elaborate further, but getting rid of the nightrisers is equivilent to getting rid of the chosen, except the chances are not even a billion to one. I'm just saying it'd be nice to be faced with a challenge that can be solved, not coped with.

Uh.. It's not simply a matter of just taking some random boat.

I'm sure there is a reason, it's just that the reason isn't really that evident, you know? Or maybe I'm just retarded.

If returning home was easy, everyone would be doing it. They are not. Of course, it's possible (easier than escaping the Underdark, for certain), but not within the reach of most PCs.

I'm not clear what the problem is with leaving the island chain myself. I can't recall an instance where I spoke with an npc or read a forum post where any explanation for this was brought forward. I think this must have been an oversight.

As far as server enjoyment goes, there simply isn't enough DM to go around. If you'd like to be a part of server events or enjoy having a DM around, its perfectly acceptable to go where DMs are, rather then expecting them to come to you. Be flexible with your character.

Quote from: chatellerault;103016I'm not clear what the problem is with leaving the island chain myself. I can't recall an instance where I spoke with an npc or read a forum post where any explanation for this was brought forward. I think this must have been an oversight.

Such an explanation should be common knowledge, much more than some of the events that are mentioned in the Gossip/Rumors forums. I truly don't understand why it isn't. I mean, at this point, all of the Ziggurat residents have tried to leave the island and know why they can't. The ships' captains told them, for starters.