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Myself, D_I, Crytalos, VP and Shadow Charlatan have all had similar discussions on regular basis so I thought I'd open it to the public.

You know what kills villain PCs?

Boredom. PC's get bored and go villain hunting. Villains get bored and make new PCs. High level PC's who are bored get slighted one and shift their focus to utterly consuming and getting "Revenge". High level villains succeed and feel there's no more challenge and either die in a suicide run or simply vanish.

As a perennial villain PC I honestly have to blame DM factions. Not any DM situation in particular but to be quite honest the establishment of DM factions in and around EFU:M has been horribly misrepresented from the concerns of the villains.

Philosophic ideals are something that efu has NEVER, EVER, AT ALL been malleable about. It is why clerical conversion is so low and it is why I honestly believe things are slow at the moment. Don't blame Skyrim, games always come and go and it insults the people left to say "Well the cool people/crowd have left".

PC's build a cornerstone of their characters around Philosophic ideas. The Wyrm Watchers, The Druids, The Order have all been built around explicit and very serious ideals and philosophy. What made EFU:A great was there were at times "Legit" Sons that broke convention and "Corrupt Stygians" who gained greatly by going against the overall notion. That the Power-Hungry Conclave was present to try and manipulate matters in their favor. That the Apocalyptic-fearing Order would do all in it's power to prevent the "End".

Yet with EFU:M this seems to have faded, or at worst case halted. I am not saying the PCs in the faction are bad, or the DMs running them are bad, but I believe on the whole there has been this gaping shift in how EFU works since the Transition to EFU:M.

DM factions and Associations always Worked because PC factions and more would be used as chess pieces. Villains would be wildcards and tricks up the sleeve to unleash on foes. DM faction PCs were more in a nebulous grey and would make moves at times considered unconvetional.

The conflict of "LAWFUL ORDER VS. CHATOIC WOODSMEN" doesn't lend itself very much to murderers, outlaws, and monsters. "WE OWN THE TOWN BUT WE DONT WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW WE WANT TO OWN THE TOWN" doesn't lend itself to drug-dealers, arsonists, thugs, and more. The Caermyn vs. Aberdenn conflict is stifled because of the fear of NPC Backlash if a retainer acts out.

In my experience on EFU:M the factions built on Philosophical Pursuits are 100% devoted, 100% adherent, and 200% conforming. It's not a Bad thing, or a PC thing, or a DM thing, but it is a structural thing.

There is no Grey in philosophy on EFU. The original hope was that the lack of grey would lead to conflict. Yet the opposite has happened. It has lead to stagnation, boredom, and an overall decline of PC plots on the server.

PC's wait for DMs to pull the trigger on conflict. This leaves the Villain to his own devises, cut off from most factions and forced to "B-Movie roles" of faceless badguys who exist to be cut down because PC's are waiting.

And in that waiting Villains become prime targets for the entire server's aggression. And we who play villains get tired of being everyone's whipping post and having our plots pissed on because PC's get bored and look for something besides scripted questing when no DM activity is around.

I'm Naga and I approve this message.

 I feel its more a case of not enough players to support the number of factions with very specific philosophy as a result even during the rare moments faction A and faction B have the same numbers, that still leaves very little to the independent.

 I cannot possibly think of anything that could remedy this situation and fear that any inklings I have would only dilute the setting as a whole.

I think prominent evil NPC's should be a little more visible and available to the villainous PC's, and be there to help them get their own plots going. The server currently seems to have a very strong neutral alignment.

-Cyric demands his followers keep everyone afraid and uneasy, but this is not the case around the isle, as Murdertown has been quiet as of late. The Psychopomp begins offering bounties on several otherwise unimportant individuals (Martine, Fat Mary, Higgins, Jacey, whatever) to sow some chaos and fear in Mistlocke's populace.
-The Nightrisen guard Nebezzdos by night, but are powerless during the day. When they take a foolhardy adventurer prisoner one night, they offer him a choice - to serve them by guarding the ruins by day, or be sent off without hands.
-Maurus Rodagh seeks to form a circle of necromancers and those willing to guard them devoted to seeing the Withering invade the mist-covered lands, and to getting further revenge on the Conclave.

Just some ideas. *shrug* Something from these groups would be awesome.

I, Seanzie, support this. ...something needs to change

Something I find different between EFU-A and EFU-M. Is that we dont have the Docks vs Dominion mentality, the wilds Vs whoever, the order vs the dominion, the conclave vs renegades/docks/dominion.

We have Mistlocke vs everyone.

Any villains face exile, and once a player is exiled he is fucked. No questing, no invasions, noone wants to help. On EFU-A players always had an option, a place to go where they could seek sanctuary, meet other like minded players and allow the character to continue to grow.

Now we have old stones and the wilds, and truth be told old stones pc's are limited to the few like minded people doing the same concept.

On EFU-A the docks always had numerous groups, ladder men, sons and other gangs. While the dominion still kept a healthy group of players.

Is it because our conflict driven, and creative players have grown bored? No, its because when players who seek to create conflict, to create new things, to build something for villains. Are often shot down by everyone and everything they come across, because they are no longer in the Mistlocke niche.

The issue isn't lack of NPC support for evil doers in the form of factions.  The problem is the lack of PC actions to make stories.  It is often the case that evil/proactive/aggressive pc's are accused of being to ruthless with their victims and enemies.  This isn't really the case, any good villain pc should know that style/class will make them far more infamous than simply crushing everyone who opposes them.   In fact much of the time the problem lies on the opposite end of the spectrum, with good/lawful pc's seeing "BAD GUY" and instantly assuming the only solution to "BAD GUY" is stabbing him until death after which they are victorious.  

Does this make a good plotline?  No.  Yes, I accept that evil characters are nasty bastards in general who often deserve to die, but by killing them off or ruining them as fast as possible the avenues of conflict are irrevocably closed.  Once this happens the victorious side enjoys the fruits of victory! ...Boredom.  Like I said to RWG, by ending things as swiftly as possible in order to WIN, nothing meaningful truly happens.  Your villain is dead, good has triumphed and now it has nothing to do but go back to crushing red NPC's and furthering unopposed plots.  Cliched as it may be, can you imagine if the heroes had gone and flown to Mount Doom on an eagle during the Lord of the Rings (Sensible as it may be) and dropped the win into the fires thus WINNING.  It would have been a terrible film, you'd have enjoyed one or two aerial fights maybe, an hour or two of characters talking in the air followed by an unspectactular conclusion, leaving you unsatisfied.  The same applies to EFU, if you find the best, most efficient way to destroy your foes without some flair or room for drama you get dull, flat and short lived plots, is this fun for anyone?

It's often the case (as has come up many times before) of video game mentality over RP.  For example, a foul criminal has your friend held hostage in his lair, blade to his throat.  You and your allies have cut your way to his final chamber, you consider your options.  99% of the time in the frenetic pace of pvp, atleast one or two people will instantly rush forward, ignoring the shouts and threats of the kidnapper in order to slay him and end the game there.  However let's think in terms of your character, if you are good or evenly vaguely caring, you do not want to risk the life of your friend or a innocent person purely to kill a villain when there's a chance you can free them and get him later.   Yes some characters would consider killing the bad guy to be the most important thing, however you need to think, is it worth the death of that other person?  By resolving it in a cool stand-off with interesting progression you offer the chance of further conflict, you save a PC who would otherwise lose their story and you build on the fame/infamy of those involved.

Last point is that evil DM factions and plots would be all well and good but as soon as pc's complete said plots, if they are made specifically for them, they become flat and lose motivation.  This makes a reactionary pc, someone who has no drive to persue anything much and resorts to responding opposingly to everyone elses ideas.  

I had a bunch of other stuff I could have said, but i'm in a hurry and it would probably become somewhat rambling so i'll end it there.  

I'm not going to TL; DR it because I don't feel I can adequately sum up all the things I raised in the above paragraphs in one sentence.  If you care enough to want to help improve then you'll probably be bothered enough to read it all.

I hate to be the defender of the status quo, but I think that you could just as easily have seen this thread in EFU:A. People often complained of lack of villains then too. Alternatively, there were complaints that there was not enough variety of enemies (that it was ALL Docks Vs. Zig). At the risk of sounding like Caddies, if you want to see villains, make villains. If you want to change something, change it ingame.

You just have to be a little patient, a little careful. PCs that perma after three weeks on a scripted quest just aren't going to cut it. Latch on to some villainous ideology and then find ways to make it cause conflict with other factions.

To address a couple of the points made above:

As far as unconventional faction PCs go: I think a lot of those were responses to the ages of factions. As the Stygians got older as a DM faction, people wanted less to play what was expected of a Stygian, so you saw Stygians with the goal of actually assassinating the Duke, or robbing the Ziggurat bank. Maybe we will eventually see a Wyrm Watcher that doesn't want to FIND the king, but BE the king.

I will say that I think players (and their PCs) are scared to leave Mistlocke because of the Withering. It's not really that bad. There are plenty of ways around it, so don't let that stop you from setting up your villainous hideout somewhere out in the curse.

Also, it's worth noting that this is the first iteration of EfU to have a single "big bad" that the entire server can get behind destroying. H'bala is nemesis, and I don't remember having one of those in EFU or EFUA. Every DM faction has destroying H'bala pretty high on their list of priorities, so it is much easier for them find common ground.

edit: to expand on the thought of H'bala being nemesis and everyone working against her... This may actually reduce conflict, but the alternative is that everyone has different approaches to defeating her. I think that, if we're finding conflict here it has to be more nuanced. "She has to be defeated THIS way and we're so sure that we're right that we'll fight you if you are getting in our way."

If you think that killing hbala is a palpalble goal, go and try it. But I think that defeating the undeath in escape from the undeath is going to be a end all be all of the server, and that won't be happening any time soon. Everywhere but Mistlocke has some horrible side effect to playing there, one common one is lack of players. Sure you could say "Change it if you want it changed". But one person cannot solve this problem. It takes more people. Perhaps what we need is a group of players to try and change this. But again that is much harder than just having one Person change it.

If you are working from the mindset that H'bala can't be defeated for another year or two (assuming another setting change is in the works), you've already metagamed yourself right out of the central plot of EfU:M.

And saying that one person isn't going to change things may be true, but this thread shows that there is an appetite for antagonist PCs. All that it takes is for someone to start something and recruit effectively - if there is really so much desire for this, the group should grow quickly.

As sidenote to this, I think Antagonist is a better description than Villain, in that there have been numerous CN and CG PCs that have had destabilising things as an effect of their character. In EFU:A, Legal Evil was widely present in the form of slavery, necromancers etc, and it made things dull. You couldn't touch the actual villains over what they did. It's what made the Camarilla such a breath of stale, fetid crypt air.

I didn't mean to shut down discussion in this thread. A central point that was raised is that Mistlocke has its own clique that undirected PCs fall into. In the cases of Sanctuary and Nebezzdos, people were originally introduced to the lawful area (The Zig/Upper Sanctuary) that had elements of evil and oppressiveness (Stygians/Spellguard) and then disperse usually in favor of their own moral high ground (or in the case of evil PCs, where they might best exploit the population). Docks/Lower for chaotic who hated all repression, Wilds for nature PCs, and lawful areas for people who wanted to "work within the system."

If Mistlocke has a problem, it's that it does not appear evil enough. Sure there's the lottery (FOIG), but for the most part it is inoffensive. But there's an advantage here too. New players or players without a lot of playtime or without lofty goals fall into that clique and are sort of passive. Giuseppe Mastro exploited that group mentality brilliantly. He set a great example for evil PCs with that - by using the herd mentality against the Mistlocke clique. And he was a great villain and people had fun, whether they were being tricked or doing the tricking.

So a villain that immediately outs himself as wicked necromancer - sure, he's going to be spurned and maybe exiled. But a dastardly villain will represent himself as a shining light to the community. He'll quest with you and buy the potions you sell while conducting underhanded dealings and consolidating like-minded individuals until the time is right.

As sidenote to this, I think Antagonist is  a better description than Villain, in that there have been numerous CN  and CG PCs that have had destabilising things as an effect of their  character. Certainly what EfU has always lacked most has been the sneaky, devious twofaced good guys as a foil to evil overlords. Without that sort of PC, conflict with a villain does tend to come down to Kick His Ass Hard, We Won't Get a Second Chance.

In EFU:A, Legal Evil was widely present in the form of  slavery, necromancers etc, and it made things dull. Villainous, sure, but they weren't something that you could plot the demise of short of shady ambushes. It's what made the Camarilla  such a needed breath of stale, fetid crypt air. They weren't the typical iron-clad criminal brotherhood and they didn't hide behind the law.

EfU has had plenty of antagonists of the lone monster type, the crushbot crook type and of course, the Faction Loose Cannon. Thing is with the last, faction NPCs have tended to either back them to the hilt or slap them down from continuing. A lot of the time, this is because there's few internal rules of the faction to let you know how far you can push. Without them, you tend to play totally conforming or totally underhand.

Finally, these things do tend to be all or nothing. Either they bandwagon up like crazy and take over half the server, or they fizzle out because they get stomped fast. Neither's a particularly great outcome, as it's kind of polarised. The best times are the simmering conflicts, like the fistfights at the Mist's End that we see in the chat logs all day long but no PC ever pulls.

There are some valid points here on both sides of the argument. Playing a villain, or antagonist to be more correct, is a difficult task. It comes with very punishing penalties and chores while offering a certain bit of satisfaction and bliss when it works. The honest truth is that very few players will play these types of characters, and even fewer will see success with it. While it's nice to be able to use the factions to boost your goals, and I agree that they are not fitting of that in the current setting..yet, you can always just fly solo. :)

I think your just experiancing culture shock because Mistlocke isn't quite as unrelentingly evil everywhere as Archipelago was

As usual RWG's entire post is a confusing mess of random capitalization with no discernable central line of argument...

What I think he is saying is that the DM factions do not allow for anything but a black and white take on the attendant philosophy, and that as a result of this people play the same characters more or less over and over again, which is leading to boredom, which in turns leads to villains getting killed by bored players. Or something else? I am not honestly sure.

If what he is saying is what I interpreted it as, then he is obviously wrong.

Ultimately, it is down to the playerbase as a whole to produce characters that spark the excitement and buzz that makes everyone want to log in and play. If things are slow and boring, which apparently they are, don't blame DMs or aspects of the setting like factions or NPCs, or other games being released IRL.

Instead, fuck with the status quo you mislike so much by making a PC with a clear agenda that will generate conflict between PCs and add tension and suspense to the gameworld. If some players can plunge the server into widespread conflict as NEUTRAL ALIGNED GONDITES, as the Shining Hammer PCs did, then few of us have an excuse not to be similarly contributing in some way.

You don't need to make grandiose schemes or special concepts or ambitious leader-types. Every outlaw king needs bandits and exiles to lead, every priest needs the devout to preach to and converts to win over, every criminal kingpin needs thugs to intimidate his rivals, every evil cult leader needs madmen and misfits to manipulate, every noble knight needs loyal companions to stop evildoers, etcetera.

Create something realistic to your experience and  preferences...something you will find fun, but be certain that before  you enter the gameworld you have a simple plan on how to get into the  mix quickly and create, or contribute to, conflict in the setting.

Heylo, I'm a noob here on this server so dont yell at me too much please...

But from what I see is there are good points on both side, but it all comes down too this..What More rewarding in the end?

A player makes a good/neutral and he/she is able too quest, group up with so many guilds/groups, raid and RP in Mistlocke

Now, for a Bad/chaotic villein, there is few places he/she can go too to be able too pass the time during the slow times, few quests he can go too, few if any shops he can shop at,and can not join and of the normal DM events that I've seen arise.

And for a player too dare this challenge, They are now a big target for all those well founded groups/players that hunt down bad players and villeins...Though I agree with most of ya, all it will take is one player with a vision (and good RP) to make this happen! and it could become a very good bad group...But the way I still see it...
it still isn't rewarding enough to lure any players TO become evil yet and maybe that's what can be done too fix it and maybe we might see more evil.

*Shrugs* Just my humble opinion though.

I've gone ahead and started my next concept. Will it fill the gap for evil and be awesome? I don't know. Anyone looking to join and help, feel free to PM me or talk to me on IRC.

1.

QuoteVillains get bored and make new PCs.

Players, not villains, get bored. Lack of goals or purpose. See Characterization thread.

2.

QuoteAs a perennial villain PC I honestly have to blame DM factions.

Nope. See 1.

3.

QuoteThe problem is the lack of PC actions to make stories.

Boom.

No, Beggar. Villains and antagonists get bored. PC's don't get bored because they can hang out in Mistlocke interacting, they can go on quests, and they can go to events ran by DMs around the city. They can visit merchants. If your characterization thread somehow solves the problem of "Talking to the Stew-Shoppe Wall" then I'm all for it Beggar. But PC's don't get bored. Antagonists do.

While it keeps getting raised I understand it is the focus of the player to make these changes and pursuits, no one is debating that It's why I put it in "General Discussion" not "Suggestions". However PC factions were once the massive fabric of EFU that worked as supplements. As Caddies mentioned the Shining Hammer made waves. I think the biggest thing is people look at the countless amounts of people that the Brotherhood had and think that is the "Staple". A PC faction can be successful with four or five dedicated PC's if they are willing to take risks.

The message coming from is that's boring once you are exiled (not so much a complaint on villains as you can be a villain and work within the village). You can be exiled and still work with a DM faction, hence still have allies.

So what's the issue?

 - Are exiles too lightly given?
 - De-centralization ( having multiple cities to fragment even further our playerbase and undo what EFU:M attempted to fix from EFU:A).
 - DM faction too stricts? (this one is really wtf to me since I think they allow for a lot of freedom!).
 - Player giving fledgling antagonists a chance? This one is a two edged sword, since organizing bounties, using sendings, talking about the antagonist is what gives them their infamy (which is good!), but also what gives them their death.
 - Less boredom? Thrill/risk is what stave off boredom. It's also a double edged sword. Being a villain that everyone ignores is equally boring as being the villain that everyone hunts.

If you define a villain as someone who antagonizes everyone, then I think you have to adapt, that role might no longer have its place with a smaller playerbase and you'll need to be smarter on how you approach or reach it. Besides all the villains I have seen on EFU, usually were alone with 2-3 others at most, sometimes with 5-6 if they were really lucky/or successful and that group's interaction is what gave them interest in play, but it generally took a LONG time to be formed (if it wasn't formed from OOC shenanigans), and the relationship formed without OOC shenanigans are the ones that generate interest since they are unpredictable or seem genuine between the characters.

Anyway, I'm not sure what constructive criticism or discussion comes from this topic. The Original post had a rather melancholic tune.

I think everything is fine, but I will say as someone who played in the Muster, that exiles are given a lot! Now generally, when they're given out, those who recieve them are given a task to earn their citizenship back, but still, the exiles are loosed pretty easy. Maybe the new Mayor will have something to say about that?

I agree that exiles are given out a bit too easily. This would be fine in EFUA, where an exile could find refuge in the Docks or the Gobsquat. As it stands, Old Stones is the only immediate place that an exile can find refuge, which doesn't always fit. As RuinedDesire pointed out, exile often means game over. It shouldn't be this way, but at least for me and my character, being exiled meant that I was virtually separated from the playerbase, questing, etc. Completing a task such as "bring the head of Mistlocke enemy A" becomes all but impossible without access to supplies and allies.

Considering the heavy repercussions of being exiled, I think we should be more reluctant to hand them out.

I don't see it. Exile is for major things, assault gets you a beating. In some cases PCs have been exiled because they ran from the Muster so as not to get fined, or beat...a penalty far less severe than exile. If the players of these PCs were so concerned that exile meant boredom then they perhaps could have chosen another course of action other than open resistance.

From everything I've seen PCs (unless they're murdered someone) get at least a second chance, and in some cases a third. Also, some PCs who have been exiled have done very well afterwards, such as Axom, Boris and Mastro. The difference? These PCs had charisma, and attracted people to their side.

QuoteMort - "that role might no longer have its place with a smaller playerbase and you'll need to be smarter on how you approach or reach it."

Nailed it.

Don't change a thing. It's a solid set up as is for the smaller player base you are working with.

I barely skimmed this thread but I do want to emphasize the point that EFU:M is designed for a smaller playerbase. This is appropriate because there are less people playing NWN these days, but of course there's still tons of fun to be had. Think of EFU:M as a more intimate setting almost in the model of a PnP campaign.

As far as faction villainy goes, our intent (and perhaps it's failing flat, as it really is hard to keep DMs active) was to have intensive temporary villainous groups (whether player or DM in origin) being appropriately supported for a limited duration (the course of a plot, perhaps) rather than trying to build big cumbersome villainish major factions. This was always my favored model both as a player and DM; personally it always seemed more fresh and interesting.

I really fail to see being Exiled as an issue...annoying at times, surely, but as some kind of unsurpassable impediment? No, just no.

For the last few months I've been active on a self imposed exile (well, except for when she enters Mistlocke to challenge competitors to the arena to maintain her reputation). It's not the exile that makes open villainy boring. It's the lack of anything to do other than clobber people. Plot and character progression basically hits a brick wall when you're no longer part of Mistlocke. That's my take on it, but bear in mind I am a real junkie for stories and development more than lame pvp stuff. Creating things.

Many of EFU's greatest villains were Exiled or existed in a similarly-removed manner, and all of them plotted well enough. You can still accomplish plots and storylines while Exiled, especially if you make good use of spies and middlemen.

What I don't get is why the people who complain about there not being enough villains don't make villains?  

WOAH?!

Exile was never a problem. I also don't think factions are a problem, as you shouldn't join them if your character's goals won't be bolstered by that factions own agenda or policies somehow.

Quote- De-centralization ( having multiple cities to fragment even further our playerbase and undo what EFU:M attempted to fix from EFU:A).

I didn't personally notice any effect from this idea that has been mentioned numerous times since the setting change. The main area is about the same size (Zigg / Mistlocke), and the rest really did not change excluding the criminal "haven" being some tunnels rather than the docks. The only effect I actually noticed was a direct statement saying that the staff did not like the idea of Sis Liman being built up as it might separate the player base.

I'd honestly say that a lot of this idea that villains can't succeed now or are having trouble would oddly be crushed with a simple area design change or two. A superior way to access Old Stones (yes, we all know there are a couple of ways) and possibly a small that would act as some sort of neutral travelling ground between Old Stones and Mistlocke. Something to "soften" the transition between the two areas somehow.

I remember a while ago people were complaining Villains had it too easy.
The point brought up back then was that criminals could easily gank people in mistlocke square/market and escape into old stones and be gone.
What has changed since then?
Nothing really. Just that the characters are no longer alive.
It takes a lot of risk and effort to be a villain/criminal who wants to be noticed and feared. But if it was just easily achieved and a 100% sure deal it would not be anything fun to strive for.

Don't worry, I'm looking for my nwn cd's right now! All will be well again.

....Shit.

DruQks!

Finally something good comes of this garbage thread.

Another thread to boost your post count. Shame on you.

DruQks...man its been a long time. I haven't seen you since I was like....14? anyways good to see you here dude.