Hello.
I have noticed a heavy amount of PvP and disjoints in players in regards to what they can and cannot get away with. I have noticed alot of ambushs etc on new players. Even when the assailant is called out they will use disguises/excuses such as Blur and StoneSkin as saying there did not actually do it!!
Direct LOS or line of sight is pretty simple. I am curious about this ruling and am a little disturbed at the amount of PvP and well no offense intended PvP by villans and people that think they will not have repercussions for attacking other players.
The impression I was given by one of my many attackers so far was due to blur and stoneskin I could not make positive ID even though I had direct line of sight.
If this is the case I would ask the rules be revisited and the PvP rules to be revisited as well. Open season pvp and easy immunity to PvP combat such as Blur or Stoneskin is very very unbalanced. It would drive a great deal of players away from the server in addition.
PvP and poorly handled PvP can drive away many players very quickly. Thats why I am asking the questions. Good gaming and have fun.
EFU definitely does not suffer from the problem of people refusing to accept the repercussions of misdeeds. Sooner the opposite. It is considered sporting to give them a chance by way of examples like you just made.
The best way to resolve something like this is to get a DM ruling. You could ask in the DM channel in-game, or on the DM Question & Answer forum.
I suspect that you were not targeted specifically because you are a new player. Most veteran players, if they subdue a new player or a very low-level PC, will not steal from him or her and may even apologize in tells.
I do think the players of certain PCs, particularly those with PvP-oriented concepts or 'goals', could exercise a bit more caution when it comes to targeting new or struggling players on the server. I understand the rules and the idea behind PvP here, and I actually quite enjoy it, personally; that being said, however, I think the key here is that people should keep in mind that the RP should always be worth the PvP.
Assaulting, subduing, and robbing other characters with a half-assed singular line of dialogue doesn't constitute "roleplay" for most people, and it's understandable that there's been a mild degree of frustration from some peopl (only chiming in here because I've been witness to a couple not-so-terrific instances in the past week or two that have left some people with a bitter taste in their mouths).
It's almost never PvP that people have a problem with; it's how you choose to approach it. It's supposed to be fun—for everyone.
^ Assuming they know it's a new player, of course.
Blurs and Stoneskin and high enough lvl bark to show the vfx would indeed make IDing an assailant later diffcult. You could determine broad features such as gender, height, build, and facial structure - and it's difficult to examine someone in detail while your both flailing around with swords.
EFU can cause some culture shock with a very high conflict orientation, and if you ever have any concerns or are upset I encourage you to talk them out immediatly. Also don't let the carrying on in IRC phase you.
As someone whose not a fan of PVP themselves or, wasn't, I can confide PVP and getting PVP'd have been some of my biggest adjustment problems at EFU, because it can carry such harsh consequences such as loss of items, consumables, or even perma-raise required death.
Rest assured however people only 'get away' with villainy and conflict if they do it intelligently, villains can and are be smacked with consequences just as harshly as those they predate upon.
Edit: As for the comment above I agree, but the brevity of interaction may itself be roleplay, loitering around the area you just attacked someone in is unwise for any brigand especially in an area that see's foot traffic, and a situation isn't always conducive to blackout or dragging someone off.
Here is a basic list of PvP rules:
http://www.escapefromundeath.com/documentation/conduct/pvp-rules
PvP can be a touchy subject in any environment. It is definitely an important part of the EfU Setting. We try to maintain balance and fairness in the application, but understand that for a variety of reasons, PvP may not always fit nicely into everyone's definition of what is fair.
We have had an influx of several new players and this is a great thing. From what I have seen, all of these players are excellent additions to the EfU server and I personally am excited to see them. That said, many of them are still getting used to the rules, both written and 'unspoken'. In some cases this means getting used to the harsh nature of some circumstances and in others it means getting used to doing things in a manner that provides fun for all players involved.
And that is the bottom line. Using the rules as linked above, the next thing that a player about to engage in PvP should ask themselves is, "How is this fun for everyone else?"
To answer some of the OP's questions directly:
Disguises are a valid part of roleplay, common sense discretion is necessary. It seems reasonable to me that a man who is under the effects of 'blur' and 'stoneskin' might be harder to pick out of a 'line-up' than a fellow who attacked you unhelmed and unspelled.
But such a disguise is not necessarily a be all end all 'you'll never figure it out' trick. Height, weight, type of weapon used, type of armor worn, etc can all be clues to your assailants identity and in a medieval survivalist setting like EfU, certainty does not need to be absolute to rally the lynch mob.
React and respond IC according to the situation and you'll be fine.
If anyone has any specific problems with an incident, feel free to PM myself or another DM to discuss it, especially if you feel that the incident breaks one of the listed PvP rules directly.
I think that if I am stoneskined, and transparent, you wouldn't be able to recognize me by my helmet and height. That is after I thought you were newer, and saved you from dying from a cat. I did not subdue you or take your things, that said. I expected you to be a little less "I want to win" or "I saw your helmet and that means I recognize you". But more "I want both players to be satisfied with the situation". I felt that you wanted to "Win" or be the victor in the situation in the sense that you would automatically recognize me. But that is just my point of view.
Quote from: OrneryBadger;268791^ Assuming they know it's a new player, of course.
Absolutely. I don't even necessarily think new players should be given immunity - you're right, it's an adjustment to make - or anything of that nature. Just that they shouldn't feel cheated out of a good time by a mechanically unpleasant experience because of the lack of immersion.
Quote from: OrneryBadger;268791As for the comment above I agree, but the brevity of interaction may itself be roleplay, loitering around the area you just attacked someone in is unwise for any brigand especially in an area that see's foot traffic, and a situation isn't always conducive to blackout or dragging someone off.
No, I definitely agree! But a bit of flavor prior to (assuming it's not an ambush from stealth or invisibility) and especially during the encounter is appreciated by everyone, I think, instead of getting smacked down by your attacker like we're playing WoW.
Quote from: Seanzie;268795I expected you to be a little less "I want to win" or "I saw your helmet and that means I recognize you". But more "I want both players to be satisfied with the situation". I felt that you wanted to "Win" or be the victor in the situation in the sense that you would automatically recognize me ...
Aaand, as the flipside of my original post, I see this as the roleplaying responsibility of the assaulted party. Being a sore loser is just as bad as skimping on the enjoyable interaction as an attacker. (Mind you, not accusing or defending anyone here. Don't know the situation. Might have gotten a bit off-topic now... Apologies.)
It is good to remember that individuals who are playing dedicated bandits or criminals are running the risk of permadeath with every action they take. The response of most players when they subdue a bandit is to switch to full-death mode or drag them into town for a public execution! This is the price of a high-risk/high-reward concept, but more often than not, such characters are a boon to the server's atmosphere.
It is always prudent in PVP situations to give people the courtesy and benefit of the doubt that you would like for your own PC.
In any case if there's any sour grapes DM consultation is availible and advised and as someone who has totally been there before and let themselves get so twisted up they got all huffy and took extended breaks and made some very upset forum posts, I encourage you to find your center, relax, and try not to be so caught up in the state of your character because it'll only lead to heartburn.
Disguise is not really supported on efum, so just ask yourself what will be more fun for everyone in the end.
Especially, make sure you're not metagaming stuff (like the little blue name above the attacker) or reporting everything just because you're pissed at loosing at pvp.
Barkskin, blur, stoneskin, etc, make it harder for someone to tell "who dun'it", but you still can. Maybe checking your spot skill can help. If you were downed in a few hits, you probably never saw what hit you, too...
So in the end it's up to you, with the above ooc/ic considerations.
As for general pvp, if you're hit regularly (especially at low lvl) and don't find it "suitable", just report it do a dm so that we make sure everything's being done properly. Read pvp rules, and remember you can be pvped wether you like it or not.
Defo talk to a DM if your ever upset, even experianced players can make mistakes in PVP and dms will step in to rectify the situation.
Quote from: Seanzie;268795I think that if I am stoneskined, and transparent, you wouldn't be able to recognize me by my helmet and height. That is after I thought you were newer, and saved you from dying from a cat. I did not subdue you or take your things, that said. I expected you to be a little less "I want to win" or "I saw your helmet and that means I recognize you". But more "I want both players to be satisfied with the situation". I felt that you wanted to "Win" or be the victor in the situation in the sense that you would automatically recognize me. But that is just my point of view.
Unfortunately the bolded bit has been what most of my experience with pvp has amounted to. People seeing others through walls and rushing around to attack them, people metagaming who the attacker was when there would be no possible way to visually see them based on distance/fog/rain/night/angle, people expecting me to positively ID people based on their helmet/armor, etc. Every time I try to point that sort of stuff out in-character I feel like I am mocked or ignored for not metagaming enough.
PvP is one of the best aspects of EFU and the community is a great supporter of such.
As its' been said a lot the best advice I can give is to seek out a DM. As a person who PvPs you just have to remember that sometimes things don't work out so great and roll with the punches, the same when you're attacked.
When in doubt, DM.
There shouldn't be any "unspoken" pvp rules at all.
Cheap and meaningless pvp is common. I wish it were more rare so it could be special. If you'd beaten someone to intimidate them or force them to your cause, it isn't effective if that same thing has happened to them so many times on this server that they're just oocly bored with it. Killing a pc isn't epic either, if its' happened so much and for so many cheap reasons that it means nothing more than the nessecity to quickly roll up a new pc.
Pvp, pvp threats and pvp deaths are so common that they mean nothing to experienced players, yet seem offensive and dumb to newcomers. I think there should be stricter rules regarding pvp for those reasons.
^ Can't help but agree with this. The "cheapness" is exactly what I was getting at by saying PvP shouldn't be excused from the standards of RP that are so high on EfU.
It's like people step outside of the IC/RP bubble when it comes to PvP.
Quote from: LaceAndLeather;268789It's almost never PvP that people have a problem with; it's how you choose to approach it. It's supposed to be fun—for everyone.
Bolding is mine for emphasis.
Just because it's fun for the person doing the villainry doesn't mean it's fun for the person being villained, nor does it mean it adds anything to the larger story. Sure, having your hard-earned stuff stolen, a body part cut off, or being FD'd because you are actually a villain yourself is never going to be fun, exactly. But there are ways and there are ways. The ways which involve conflict on the burner for a long, slow simmer executed with class being far preferable to the out-of-the-blue firestorm.
Please think about the PvP you are about to inflict and really consider it from outside your own perspective, and then think of ways to make it more interesting, flavorful and truly fun for everyone in the long run, qualities which I feel the PvP lately has really lacked.
Also, I agree there shouldn't be any unspoken PvP rules.
In terms of knowing whether the person you're robbing is a new player or not, for one thing I think anyone who's played here for any appreciable length of time has a general sense of who is a new player and who is not.
Failing that, what I find interesting to note is that every person I have heard of being robbed lately has been lower level. No one that I've heard of (not saying it's not happening, just that I haven't heard of it) who is higher level has been robbed, or had robbery attempted, despite the fact that they frequently walk about alone. Maybe just coincidence, maybe not. Maybe it is perfectly IC for a robber to look at a character decked out in full plate wearing the colors of some established organization and wisely avoid attempting robbery... are they really looking that closely? I don't know. It's simply food for thought.
Quote from: FanaticusIncendi;268828...interesting, flavorful and truly fun for everyone in the long run...
Boom. In a nutshell.
These threads pop up every few weeks it seems. There was one about there not being any obvious villain PCs last week, and now there's this one. Just ride it out the server fluctuates with what people play and you aren't always going to be happy with how things pan out.
On the other side of things, just because you do not enjoy pvp or even the event you recently experienced does not mean it wasn't "proper RP". People do things that have a consequence and often get angry when they are forced to pay for it somehow.
If your character was part of that mob that took down criminal X's friend, you may very well be held accountable for it and mugged or something. If you are in a faction or association you may be attacked for simply being someone's natural enemy due to their own faction or concept. Even more, you can be attacked just to be robbed, and while that can't really be "fun" in most situations for the victim, the things that come afterward can certainly be fun.
Take things as a grain of salt and move on. Always remember that these villainous characters are fighting with a much higher risk level than most of the people that they are actually forced to fight. If anything is an unspoken rule it's that villains cannot treat their enemies nor the community as they will be treated themselves upon a "loss".
Stoneskin, Barkskin, and things like that have -never- been a disguise and shouldn't really be treated as one, assuming we don't have any rule adjustments coming forth.
If you're being fair, it shouldn't matter if they're new.
DeadBoondoggle's post is one of the few that made any real sense.
Imagine you're watching a movie, and the characters having a feud in-game are foes in the movie. Try to make the end cinematic and cool.
I think that's the best approach.
But what irritates me beyond belief is when a player's character needles another character endlessly, publicly disparaging his faith, insulting his honor, what have you, and then cries foul when, eventually, it's time to pay the piper.
It's a dangerous and brutal world on a cursed isle with little hope of survival for anyone present.
If you publicly castigate Joe Cyricist, that's fine (and probably a good thing if your character would do it!), but he's fully within his right to exact revenge.
It's best, however, that killing is not the only reprisal. However, I've seen a lot of players receive mercy, and immediately turn around and rat the person out to the Muster / assassinate them / etc.
If you're a player known for being cool and showing restraint for the purpose of story, people notice and tend to reciprocate.
If you're just out for blood, people can sense that as well.
I only skimmed through the responses, sorry if I echo what someone else said.
Describe what you can based on what you saw. "Well, he used a trident, you see. I couldn't see what his skin or hair color was, though, the Bark messed with that. His armor looked heavy, and he carried a tower shield. No helm." is a perfectly acceptable description, while still leaving them somewhat unknown by virtue of not knowing anything other than their equipment.
In the past, Stone/Barkskin and blur were disguises and events were retconned in the past when people ignored them.
As for the bit about stuff being fun or not.. Always behave IC. If your concept demands you mug someone, do what is IC and mug them. Do your best to make your character an interesting and worthwhile part of EfU, and behave accordingly when confronted by any situation, regardless of whether your opposition is NPC or PC, as both can result in perma-death for you or even other people.
Generally speaking, if you haven't met someone and all of a sudden they're mugging you, they won't take everything, or even close to everything. A bit of healing, some blur, maybe a haste, and they send you on your way. If they take a lot, they give you a way to get it back. Of course, there are exceptions, and sometimes someone takes "too much," but rather than getting upset about how you lost everything, focus on what to do next.
If you suspect cheating, metagaming or something else unacceptable from an OOC standpoint, best to go to DM's.
In my experience, PvP is common. PvP with looting is uncommon. PvP with mutilation is rare. PvP with death is a big event that tends to be talked about for days. Pretty much as it should be.
The problem with things like Stoneskin and Barkskin functioning as disguises is thus:
The coolest characters are unique and have roleplayed characteristics. If Stoneskin and Barkskin make a character disguised unless they portray anything obvious, it simply encourages boring, wordless ganks with no flair or interesting stuff happening.
In that scenario, being cool and unique has a massive, massive downside.
Disincentivizing interesting play is always a problem!
Every character would realistically have their own quirks, the way they stand, the way they fight, etc. that are not shown due to NWN limitations. Why penalize those who go the extra mile to be entertaining by being unique?
Stoneskin and blur aren't disguises, by the way. They never have been. They can -assist- a bit, in combination with other disguise measures. That is all.
Quote from: Nihm;268822There shouldn't be any "unspoken" pvp rules at all.
I am a fan of no unspoken rules too.
I second BoM on the quirks of a character. I enjoy people who put effort into maximizing the feature of your character. Fighting styles, likes and dislikes (beliefs), and making their appearance memorable rather than forgettable. With detail even the most bland of molds can be refined through detail.
Just not inception-like details.
The 'Unspoken Rules' I mentioned aren't 'Hard and Fast Rules That Aren't Posted Somewhere'. They are all of the very valid viewpoints that people are posting in this very thread, most of which aren't really enforceable. They are the methods and attitudes when you go about handling PvP in a way that lends itself to style, class, and great storytelling.
After playing here for I dont know 3years? I have never EVER been under the impression that blur or bark would make it any harder to ID an attacker, After all these two buffs are used in all pvps. If you want to hide your ID use different clothes/armour/helmet/weapon/cloak and such, be creative.
Ty for the responses. Blur, stoneskin in my eyes IN conjunction immunity to ID... is to powerful. Sort of a licence to douche.. just kidding.
Is Polymorph or Shape change a disguise?
If see a wizard in troll form, and I attack him like a real troll. Am I in the right to treat him as a hostile monster? Assuming I wasn't there when he transformed.
Food for thought.
Yes. If you run into a random troll in the wilds, even if it's a player, you're legitly allowed to smash its face.
Quote from: KillerKan;268960Is Polymorph or Shape change a disguise?
If see a wizard in troll form, and I attack him like a real troll. Am I in the right to treat him as a hostile monster? Assuming I wasn't there when he transformed.
Food for thought.
Has happened multiple times :)
I certainly like the sound of that :)
from my observation of the game in general (this and other pvp servers), where you have PVP you will have individuals who stack the odds heavily in their favor, and deliberately target ones they suspect are new as characters (and potentially as players as well), easy gold and items, heck i have even had people brag about it to me in tells, so far not on this server thankfully, i presume these ones will be on every server, but i am hoping they are less frequent here.
i will not try to stop anyone from doing it, but it does upset me occasionally to see the individuals i have described, there are two kinds, those the bad ones, and the ones who do it via the rules and do not target new characters as per the game thugs who only think winning means getting the most stuff and bullying ones who are really not in a position to stop them
again i have not encountered any individuals on EFU who fit this mold, i have no doubt those ones will slip in, but do as i do..make a note of the player/character and simply avoid them if possible, if they are a bully player, every character they make will fit that mold, if not, they are a regular player testing different concepts, in that case it is the character and not the player, but they may have made a error in targeting a new person..and saying it is hard to diferenciate a new player form a established one..that is BS it is easy to figure..you ask them in a tell, you say "hi and welcome to the server, are you new?" if they are new, guide them even if it is via tells..if they are in a heavy mugging area, inform them and guide them out
bully players will never do this because the only thing important to them is winning, i personally do not think there are many if any bullies here, another trait of a bully ..is they will justify what they do vehemently, refusing ever to aid others, they chose only to victimize, and i have run across bully players..it is unavoidable in a anonymous game such as this, the rules and dms monitor such ones,
bottom line? it is always best to discuss it calmly (not always easy if you have been victimized) and take screen shots if they have overstepped the line, talk to a dm or if none are available, send a message on the forums to them.
There are thuggish players who play thuggish pc's. I've yet to meet any. The thieves here are very good at being thieves and, as a victim of mugging multiple times IG, they're fairly nice thieves only taking so much gold (always less than half in my experience), and only a few rare items, which can suck, but better than them taking all your good stuff.
It does so happen right now that there are multiple "mugger" characters who are very good at what they do and they do more often than i like.
EfU isn't the story of ONE individual, but the story of MANY & what good story has ever been considered good without proper conflict?
You can't let one or two negative experiences convince you that it's all EfU is able to provide, for it has the potential and has exceeded many of our expectations in providing outstanding stories, conflict, as well as character progression.
Do not take every PvP personally. I can't count how many times I've been subdued during PvP that I may have had no play in, but I also can't count the times that PvP resulted in something positive for my character.
PvP has existed, it will exist. It's what brings a lot of us entertainment (not from bullying, as cyber-bullying isn't exactly satisfying) through the adrenaline, the intensity, risk, and story.
EfU's strange ways will come clear to all of those of you who are new, and when it does, I eagerly await my future gank. :)
Quote from: Spiffy Has;268962Yes. If you run into a random troll in the wilds, even if it's a player, you're legitly allowed to smash its face.
So long as you adhere to the PvP guidelines.
If you see a troll (NPC) in the wilds, would you (pre-)buff hard to win or would you simply engage? If I came across a situation where I find a troll PC in the wilds, that would be one to consider.
I would hesitate to label players who initiate PVP as "bullies".
In fact, I've seen a TON of situations in which certain characters consistently needle, insult, and mock other characters, and then, when violence ends up being the eventual answer, seem shocked and chagrined that someone would do such a thing!
It's a dangerous and dark world. If you go around calling mighty warriors' mothers wenches and insulting their gods, said warriors might just practice their craft on you.