I am really looking forward to seeing the effects of these changes in-game. After some talk on the system in IRC, I just had a few thoughts and suggestions off hand, which might be interesting discussion.
1. Let cleric symbol and prayers diminish in power.
The bonuses will be potentially powerful for clerics. As a check on this, instead of being permanent, they gradually go back to normal. To facilitate this, prayers provide less boost on a symbol that's already powerful.
2. Have two different types of points from different activities.
On the heels of the first suggestion, it might help to have two different types of points to track, hard points and soft points. A conversion grants hard points, and these diminish much more slowly. Soft points, say from prayers, diminish quickly. This would let clerics who do a lot of conversions rest on their laurels, so to speak.
3. Replace the limit on patron changes with a limit on cleric bonus from these.
Some characters may be long-lived and it might make sense. Instead of preventing a conversion, remove any sort of bonus from converting them beyond the limit.
4. Treat insincere conversions (via 1 step check as per cleric script) different.
By insincere, I mean a lawful good fighter choosing say, CE Malar, as a new patron, for instance. Converting someone outside of the 1-step rule should not provide any bonus beyond what a prayer would normally produce, and not count against the conversion limit mentioned above so a more sincere conversion can still be rewarded. Anyone can give prayers. A patron is a deity characters identify with - for this, clerics should look to convert those people that actively work towards their deity's goals. (And if they do this in a significant manner, their alignment will change.)
5. Change the trickery domain tool to also allow symbol changes.
I don't believe I've seen the trickery tool used a single time, as it essentially broadcasts, "Look at me, I'm untrustworthy" to everyone near, not to mention the metagaming of deducing cleric patrons from domains in the case of deceptive clerics. Instead, change it's function to be used in a more covert nature, that's to say in the same way as SF: Bluff.
Points number 1 and 2 will be a massive headache. Let clerics who are downright successful enjoy their bonuses for the rest of their careers.
Point number 4 is meh, you can easily play a believable LE follower of Torm. Malar is the god of the hunt, I am sure even he has LG followers running amok somewhere! That said, I don't think we should have LG Cyrists either. ;)
In complete support of point number 5.
Grendel, the Trickery Domain power doesn't reveal your symbol, it's a spell in its own right. You see the message {PC} is casting Domain Power, Divine Trickery. If you don't want to blow cover as a Trickery Domain Cleric, don't use it. Same for not casting Invisibility. I've seen it used plenty on clerics of gnome/halfling deities etc. It might be good yes to have it more covert as it gives a bluff modifier but announces to the world that that you're being sneaky for X turns. Does it not have a Spellcraft check to ID the power?
QuotePoints number 1 and 2 will be a massive headache. Let clerics who are downright successful enjoy their bonuses for the rest of their careers.
Maybe. Anyway, the idea is just that current change would be rewarded more than something the cleric did a month ago, which I'd hope works a little in the favor of active upstart clerics vs established ones with a flock who have expanded to their limits. Having a following should be a pretty nice bonus.
QuotePoint number 4 is meh, you can easily play a believable LE follower of Torm. Malar is the god of the hunt, I am sure even he has LG followers running amok somewhere!
Hm. While I agree with that, if a follower remains that far away in alignment, he may be "believable," but I would question whether his actions are significantly contributing to his deity's agenda of a completely different alignment.
Along those lines, I imagine any cleric who faithfully leads people in an endeavor that results in alignment points should see a reward.
QuoteDoes it not have a Spellcraft check to ID the power?
Not AFAIK. In the past I've had characters who didn't even put it on their bar for months.
Granted, the ability is still no doubt useful to some clerics who have it. But for the bluff and to a degree pick pocket, or for impostor clerics, the ability is as practical as a loaded dice with huge letters that read, "THIS DICE IS LOADED."
Other than letting it function as a tool to change deity name, I suppose it would be nice if there were some way like text command or so that it could be activated silently.
QuoteGrendel, the Trickery Domain power doesn't reveal your symbol, it's a spell in its own right.
Right, I just meant that if you know one domain, you know about 90% of the deities a cleric can't possibly be following, and if you know two, you can narrow it down to 1-3 that they do follow, barring the odd exception. Since a cleric with "trickery" is probably already highly likely to, you know, be tricking people, it should seem silly that it gets announced... I'm not entirely sure a "domain power" necessarily must be a "spell" either.
As far as invis from trickery, yes. One difference is that it's often used in a scenarios other than a social one in which you might realize for instance you could use a boost to bluff, or that it would be handy if you could make it harder for that guard to search you, so invis still remains more useful due to that imo, ie for allies, planned exploration or spying.
I suppose the whole domain could be reworked so that it grants cleric-innate spells at different levels and, for instance, buffs your sanctuary spells rather than grant invis, so that it's not such an obvious give-away, etc, but that's another matter entirely and this is really getting into some nit-picky details, even for me. :P
It isn;t uncommon for for folks to worhsip a deity of completely different alignment out of fear, reverence, or respect for their domains. I know deities like Auril have many non-CE worshipers who will worship/revere her so them and their families don't freeze to death in their sleep. also, there's no need to have to add to a deity's agenda to worship them if you're just some random dude.
etc, etc, etc.
I don't think we should be confused over the idea of characters of varying alignments worshipping deities that might be at the polar opposite of the alignment scale. There is a difference between worshipping a Deity, which in a Polytheistic society like Faerûn should be common place, and converting to the Faith as more than a passing prayer-giver. Personally, I do not necessarily support the idea of converts to a Faith being more than one step away on the alignment scale.
I don't think we should be confused over the idea of characters of varying alignments worshipping deities that might be at the polar opposite of the alignment scale, and those that actively convert to a Faith. There is a difference between worshipping a Deity, which in a Polytheistic society like Faerûn should be common place, and converting to the Faith as more than a passing prayer-giver. Personally, I do not necessarily support the idea of converts to a Faith being more than one step away on the alignment scale.
Unfortunately, ooc friends are just going to make masses of characters for each to convert.
Quote from: Nihm;272119Unfortunately, ooc friends are just going to make masses of characters for each to convert.
Mort has addressed this and I will be amused greatly by the imbecilic buffoons who do this.
Quote from: Rose of May;272118I don't think we should be confused over the idea of characters of varying alignments worshipping deities that might be at the polar opposite of the alignment scale, and those that actively convert to a Faith. There is a difference between worshipping a Deity, which in a Polytheistic society like Faerûn should be common place, and converting to the Faith as more than a passing prayer-giver. Personally, I do not necessarily support the idea of converts to a Faith being more than one step away on the alignment scale.
I think this is the most valid response here. Many of my non-evil characters are hugely theistic-ally oriented, and have a broad base of deities they revere and give prayers to. This does not mean they will change the main feature. Sometimes, we forget what it's really like to live in worlds with such a polytheistic pantheon.
Quote from: Nihm;272119Unfortunately, ooc friends are just going to make masses of characters for each to convert.
With all due respect, old friend! That's similar to suggesting that ooc friends will create characters to commission a murder from a budding assassin (albeit with a short-term gold problem); level up their friends (we've all seen this, don't be coy with me!); make false threats to opposition/rivals/competitors (i've seen this done and was angered by it). While all of those things should certainly be frowned upon, overall, (without even testing them out yet icly) my feelings are leaning toward support (and excitement!) of these changes, and their ofc will be fleshing out to do. Rock on.
I cannot say for certain, but I think that points 1 and 2 may already be how it works.
Yes, don`t worry about exploits. The prayers are temporary bonuses, and everything is scaled according to an internal algorithm, with various checks to ensure legitimacy.
It`s very easy for me to verify which CD-Keys (i.e. the player behind the character) are being converted and ban / warn those who abuse.
Awesome.
Something else that was brought up in discussion:
Racial deities. I do think most players realize that it's usually expected for characters to pray to whichever deity is appropriate for the situation at hand. However, it might be comparably hard for a priest of, say, a gnomish deity to get converts. On the other hand, if there's a mechanic to help out the odd racial deity clerics, and there's an influx of several gnome players, will it cause said gnomish cleric to asplode with powa? How will conversions compare with prayer? The concern was that racial deity clerics would be at a serious disadvantage.
Quote from: MrGrendel;272264Awesome.
Something else that was brought up in discussion:
Racial deities. I do think most players realize that it's usually expected for characters to pray to whichever deity is appropriate for the situation at hand. However, it might be comparably hard for a priest of, say, a gnomish deity to get converts. On the other hand, if there's a mechanic to help out the odd racial deity clerics, and there's an influx of several gnome players, will it cause said gnomish cleric to asplode with powa? How will conversions compare with prayer? The concern was that racial deity clerics would be at a serious disadvantage.
I've thought about this too since I'm playing just such a cleric. Playing with canon dwarf books in mind, I will never get a non Dwarf convert or even a prayer. I only cast on dwarves and they are few and far between. So, there's not much reason for anyone else to offer a prayer nor would I expect them to. It was a shock to folks as they first met Ferrous that he wouldn't buff them, but it just didn't feel right so it didn't happen. No one has made a fuss over it since his first week or so in game. Similarly, he doesn't take buffs from other priests either. So, I see this might seem to be unfair as human clerics whore for prayers but I'm just accepting that I will be missing out on this new feature. And I'm ok with it. It is the IC thing to do.
Quote from: Professor Death;272303I've thought about this too since I'm playing just such a cleric. Playing with canon dwarf books in mind, I will never get a non Dwarf convert or even a prayer. I only cast on dwarves and they are few and far between. So, there's not much reason for anyone else to offer a prayer nor would I expect them to. It was a shock to folks as they first met Ferrous that he wouldn't buff them, but it just didn't feel right so it didn't happen. No one has made a fuss over it since his first week or so in game. Similarly, he doesn't take buffs from other priests either. So, I see this might seem to be unfair as human clerics whore for prayers but I'm just accepting that I will be missing out on this new feature. And I'm ok with it. It is the IC thing to do.
I have very similar concerns. I think that someone playing a strong advocate of their own race's deity/interests with little concern about the other races except when it intersects with their own agenda/survival is a valid, interesting and refreshing character concept. My worry is that this system may punish that style of play when that race's player population is low or non-existent, depending on how large or necessary the bonuses become and what other systems might eventually be tied into this prayer mechanic.
I don't think Moradin or Corellon would be particularly interested in attaining human worshippers. They just aren't their things. Would they answer the prayers of a human? I find it unlikely unless it suits their interests, such as rescuing a dwarf/elf in peril. Is it alright for a cleric of Moradin to cast spells on a human and provide services for humans who make a proper tithe? Sure. But should a dwarf/elf be going around trying to get humans and gnomes to pray and convert to Moradin? I dunno about that.
It all depends on what the bonuses actually are. If they're pretty minor and forgettable in the larger scheme of things then it's not really a big deal. Clerics of popular general gods who are easy to wrangle prayers and conversions for won't have a huge advantage over dark, obscure or racial gods. If the bonuses are large, or keep increasing or other mechanics keep getting added to this prayer system then I forsee some players getting left behind because they want to stick to their views and character concept.
Quote from: Crump;272324I have very similar concerns. I think that someone playing a strong advocate of their own race's deity/interests with little concern about the other races except when it intersects with their own agenda/survival is a valid, interesting and refreshing character concept. My worry is that this system may punish that style of play when that race's player population is low or non-existent, depending on how large or necessary the bonuses become and what other systems might eventually be tied into this prayer mechanic.
I don't think Moradin or Corellon would be particularly interested in attaining human worshippers. They just aren't their things. Would they answer the prayers of a human? I find it unlikely unless it suits their interests, such as rescuing a dwarf/elf in peril. Is it alright for a cleric of Moradin to cast spells on a human and provide services for humans who make a proper tithe? Sure. But should a dwarf/elf be going around trying to get humans and gnomes to pray and convert to Moradin? I dunno about that.
It all depends on what the bonuses actually are. If they're pretty minor and forgettable in the larger scheme of things then it's not really a big deal. Clerics of popular general gods who are easy to wrangle prayers and conversions for won't have a huge advantage over dark, obscure or racial gods. If the bonuses are large, or keep increasing or other mechanics keep getting added to this prayer system then I forsee some players getting left behind because they want to stick to their views and character concept.
Well said. I know it's technically ok for my character to cast on nonbelievers, after all it's expected to some extent in the idea of game and party balance. My decision to say no, I'm only going to bless dwarves was in part an answer to the DMs' ongoing challenge to attempt clerics that are more than buffbots, in part an attempt to follow the canon outlines of how dwarf clerics should act, and part answer to my personal frustration that every cleric is treated as a source of buffs and little else - as are mages. So I guess I'm ok that the prayer thing is here, I'm just not expecting to get much use of it unless there's a surge in team dwarf. Similarly you don't find Ferrous debating religion in the town square either - I work under the model that the Dwarven pantheon is not evangelistic except perhaps among dwarves. There will be no worries that Elder Ferrous will knock on your door and offer you a free copy of the Book of Moradin.
QuoteI'm only going to bless dwarves was in part an answer to the DMs' ongoing challenge to attempt clerics that are more than buffbots.
The gods get power from the prayers of mortals of any race. In the absence of other dwarves, I would imagine a dwarf priest would prefer to strengthen his god through human worship rather than help neither the humans nor his god.
In terms of "different," I think it's a change to see a priest so exclusive, and it might add some nice flavor. Looking at things objectively, I'm not sure it would be the norm in this unusual circumstance. In fact, I wonder if a priest would not be reasonably worried about their deity getting ticked over investing power in this priest and not getting any worship at all in return.
At least that's my best argument "for" prayer regarding racial deities. Patron conversions, yeah, that will work differently. Of course, if you're the one dwarf priest on the island, you'll have a massive edge on every single potential dwarf convert that
does show up. That might actually even the field.
No other gods cover mining, and plenty of humans mine. Make mining important!