This will no doubt be controversial, but I suggest that all subrace ECLs are dropped by one. So ECL3 becomes ECL2, ECL1 becomes ECL0, etc. Perhaps as a consequence, stricter standards for subrace applications.
I know in the past there's been talk of removing ECL completely, and that it would not have been suggested in the first place did it not have at least some merit. This may be an alternative middle ground, who knows!
Having played a few ECL PCs, I can honestly say that you really need to spam quests at an insane, almost consuming rate to really be considered on par with everyone else. The fact is you can't be a scary werewolf on L3 and you can't be a badass orog on L4, short of min/maxing to the extreme which nobody likes to see. And while you're questing so hard, you're missing out on enjoying your character by interacting with the setting.
People will recall the Sewer Drow, but unless I am mistaken ECL was changed after them -and indeed, because of them- to be more harsh. The Drow were, however, a DM faction with lots of DM support and consisted of a group of very talented, very dedicated veterans who quite simply knew how to bulldoze quests easily, and had the group for it from the get-go.
I guess I am saying that in more cases than not, the XP penalties subraces take seldom match their bonuses from a playing standpoint, and that I'd love to see some (in lieu of all) of that XP penalty shaved off.
Thoughts?
I think that being a visible monster such as an Orog is enough of a drawback that Ecl isn't needed for them. Similarly, if the stigma against werecreatures persists they perhaps should have their Ecl waived on a trial basis.
Things like Tiefling, Aasimar and genasai don't have the same disadvantages, so their ecl should remain as they get perks like very helpful elemental resistance and higher stats which ought to be balanced by some sort of drawback.
Nihm sums up my views exactly. A good suggestion.
I think this has merit as well.
I personally agree, having played numerous Subraces on the old EFU.
Here on the new surface I feel RP itself is justifiable, and the XP harshing is somewhat moot, much as Caddies does.
I managed to get lucky enough with my old Werewolf to have a few situations pop up where people feared me through RP, alone, not because I managed to have a level 6 guy who went around mauling PCs.
RP should be justifiably difficult.
That being said however, There should be stricter standards of play expected upon the Subrace PC's.
An Aasimar or Tiefing or whatever your race is, should be -known to the public-. You shouldn't be "Ted, that adventuring Paladin who happens to be an Aasimar", you should be "Holy shit that Goody-Two-shoes Aasimar who makes us all look bad named Ted isn't just a pain in the ass by blood, but was Chosen by a God to be better than all of us". Pc's should be expected, if not Forced if they don't, to be fairly blatant about most of their traits through RP. Maybe with enough bluff you can avoid it, but most Subraces should be publicly known if you are in the public enough. As well, other PC's must step up and form their own views and judgements about said subraces. Maybe other paladins are jealous of Ted. Maybe Criminals target him since he's percieved as a bigger threat. The works.
I really feel that the Rping of a subrace is alot of fun, as my track record can show I've dealt alot in the non-human-subrace-application realm of the server, I hope my feelings hold some weight.
Yes, If you dive into a quest with a good group, you'll roll through it and get levels. But that's said of being Normal Humans, let alone the awesome perks that come with being a Werewolf or Duergar or Drow or what have you.
If you wish individuals to have trouble questing, Cultivate a sincerely anti-monster vibe like there has been, maybe some witch hunts, or any other RP tools that can go to great lengths to Both strengthen the RP of a monster (I loved being hunted as a Lycan, it was half the fun) and makes wandering into public quest areas far more difficult.
Two cents, take them as you will.
I say lower ECL as long as monster popularity is lowered. Srsly I found it odd one could go. "I AM THE BOAR LORD!" And no one having a problem. I honestly think Ecl should be lowered yes as long as an Anti monster vibe is encouraged. I feel Dms should be more tough on monster apps so they act like monsters. More monsters doing monstrous things PLZ
While balance is not my area of expertise, I'll chime in because the sub race system is. LA will never be removed despite some (former) DMs' wishes, and no sub race with LA will have its LA removed. It is very possible some (or even many) races need their LA adjusted, but, again, that isn't my area (I'm just the grunt doing the work). I can reveal that we recently increased the LA of a certain sub race, however.
As for higher standards, I don't think that's going to happen for a number of reasons I can't be arsed to list.
The charm of having orogs, werewolves, drows, etc is that they are more powerful than other races. If I am to fight a secret drow organization, I want them to be powerful, not lvl 3 wretches that would be unable to give any challenge.
As for balance, the fact of being universally hated by pretty much everyone makes surviving difficult enough without need of ECL.
I'm all for completely removing ECL. And btw, I don't play an ELC character.
I'd be more in favor of using a balancing system unique to EFUA - like a straight, variable percentage of XP deducted from rewards so that each race can be balanced more precisely than ECL1, 2 or 3.
But, that'd take a lot of creative and technical energy to work out, and the DM team would be better focused on its awesome plottage right now, I think.
Even though I don't play an ECL character, nor plan to do so ever, I'd support removing ECL, or reducing it drastically. It's making characters that should be monstrous and fearsome into pathetic low lvls that any normal PC could swat like a fly, removing the entire point of the subraces, or rather their advantages.
My two cents:
ECL is there to make the PCs more difficult to rev up to higher levels, so they remain balanced, right?
So, how about keeping the system, and letting all subrace PCs start at say l4 or 5 straight up so they start of reasonably nasty, but find it much harder than normal PCs to spam quests to become badass.
I would be for this, but I would like to see PC's reacting to monsters as they should.
In my endless concepting, I devised an app. for an ECL char to start at lvl 4 (should Mingo ever go down) I have always heard this is possible as long as the application is sufficiently awesome.
Quote from: Thomas_Not_very_wise;102156I would be for this, but I would like to see PC's reacting to monsters as they should.
You can leave that to the players, thanks.
There is actually a set way to determine a creatures effective character level ( [COLOR="lightblue"]ECL[/COLOR] (//%22http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm%22) ).
Quote from: Kilaya76;102141... the fact of being universally hated by pretty much everyone...
You do not see what we see.
Quote from: Listen in Silence;102146It's making characters that should be monstrous and fearsome into pathetic low lvls that any normal PC could swat like a fly...
So why don't they?
Quote from: RIPnogarD;102175There is actually a set way to determine a creatures effective character level ( [COLOR="lightblue"]ECL[/COLOR] (//%22http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm%22) ).
Just so we're all talking about the same thing, some simpleton once decided that "ECL" would be a fitting term for the factor by which a super-powered race would have its total class levels adjusted in NWN. When all the previous posters say ECL, they don't know they really mean LA (and, for the record, we are using the standard procedure for determining Effective Character Level).
The first two sentences of Snoteye's post explains my thoughts on it.
Most people don't kill monsters when they should. NPCs only very rarely do anything against monster PCs. The Kingsman bounty on the Wereboar was definitely the exception, not the rule!
I would support a reduction, not a removal, only with the promise of notably increased enticement of PCs to react as they should (read: Kill on sight!) when spotting a monster.
I think the answer why people do not kill them at low level is pretty obvious.
1; They have no awesome loot yet.
2; Why kill when you can quest with them and be BFFS and gain loot and XP together? ^^
3; They have no loot yet.
4; PVPing a low level with no loot = Unproductive use of time (read; Not questing)
Edit/ADD;
I dont think the NPCS do anything, because even though it's more appropriate to the setting, it's kind of lame for the DM's to start PVPing you with NPC's because all the PC's think it's a waste of time. It's kind of counterproductive for a NPC to (try) to kill you, because then you need absolutely need a DM to plot any sort of revenge or anything of the like towards that NPC, and unless the PC will gather a shitload of PC's in whatever schemata he may have formed, a singular conflict between the player and NPC is kind of boring and pointless. They may say. "Oi, monster, I ain't giving you tree-fitty, get off my lawn!" and give you a good broom beating- but that's about it.
The only REAL way to get PC's turning their HATEVIBE on, is a XP REDUCTION for being BFFS with a monster unless it's blatantly obvious they have a good reason for not killing them. Or showering monster PC's with DM loot on creation, making them an instant target for PVP.
I'll add to cruzel's list:
5: Because before, when everyone turned up out the Portal, if you wanted to welcome a new monstrous arrival with a hail of pointy arrows, you'd need a DM. That's sorted now with the "shipwreck start point, so a monster can arrive in an area that's not going to result in "why don't we just insta-gank this thing like that Beholder that turned up... oh. No DM"
6: Because of (5), by the time you think "maybe I should go splat that 7 foot tall fish/lizard/calamari beast", it's already managed to acquire buddies. I was actually surprised that Surksus rapidly got despised and hunted (even without Mort's encouragement, people were after him. Hats off to everyone involved, Surksus made a big impact really fast.), when he was the least obvious monster PC, but Ixiotl and Senhagad got tolerated. Maybe it's just that the last two immediately tried to be diplomatic, or lack of DM presence when they were new.
I actually tend to assume any monster does have allies, they get them so fast.
As an aside, I know of at least two app characters (for BG not subrace) who have started with DM flavour loot. One of those is from a faction that's likely Kill On Sight for a bunch of PCs. I'm watching his fate with interest :).
I really would like to see all obvious monster PCs (so, not helmed Drow/Duergar etc) only be able to arrive with a DM supervising, start at level 4 or 5, have some good, steal-worthy loot and a few "escape" potions or something and be prepared to have anyone nearby open fire on them the second they port in.
If a monster PC had to hit the ground running and feel hunted from the get-go, rather than having a good time to talk and attempt to suck up to Evil factions, the arrival of one would be something impressive, with them facing an angry mob and trying to find ways to make peaceful contact once they get clear of it.
I think Cruzel is quite wrong, except maybe for number 2. I believe players do not kill monsters because quite the number of players are afraid of getting involved in PvP or they feel that it would be mean to fight monster PCs simply because of what they are and at the same time, the current IG situation and setting seems to be quite friendly/open to PC monsters.
I myself have so far played characters who were strongly against PC monsters, and tried acting against them through both words and battle, but it is sort of difficult when nobody else cares and after that I decided to play a more subtle sort of character. Though, this is not a complaint or rant.
Anyway, there are of course legitimate reasons for PC characters not to fight them for what they are or even to be against them, but I suspect that more of this reluctance to quarrel/fight with monster PCs is due to OOC reasons, like for example OOC friendship with the player of the monster, fear of PvP or fear of angering/upsetting the monster PC's player or people simply do not care, etc..
I feel that its going overboard, even if you do not wish to get involved in PvP or kill the monster PC, at least do what is IC (I would think that most characters/people would have quite a few reasons to hate monsters as well) and speak out against them. And alignment should not be a factor in this, evil aligned, good aligned and neutral aligned PCs alike could despise monsters and seek to fight/quarrel against them on sight. Even good aligned PCs can act against non-evil PC monsters, we ought to act only on what our character knows, not on what they don't.
Note: Obviously I do not believe that everyone has to/should play a monster hating character, just do what your character will do, but when just about the majority of PCs do not seem to object to or quarrel with monster PCs, something must be wrong somewhere. I think it really takes away from the experience of playing a monster PC as well.
I kind of agree with Wern8 concerning player attitude towards monsters.
I'd like to add: if town npcs we set to hostile all monster races, that would certainly help putting them were they belong...
Here's the thing.
Even if your character is evil, he likely grew up being taught monsters were evil, and ought to be killed.
Evil does not mean totally tolerant of monstrous races, far from it, you likely torment monsters before killing them, little feats of sadistic torture. I was quite frustrated when people do not kill goblins, especially dwarves. This might be because people are simply afraid of PvP, in all honestly, I -suck- at pvp, so I understand where you all are coming from.
If you are afraid of PvP, simply make it clear you won't deal with then, support characters who are willing to kill them. Don't quest with monsters and pretend to hate them while OOCly snickering at the loot you are earning.
Hating Monsters doesn't mean PvP smash! Simply make their lives difficult, expose them to players who -would- take action against them. Yes, Senhagad is a monster. But at the same time he has managed to develop a reputation of civilized monstrosity, to the extent that he is even admired by some characters I encountered.
Ixiototl is the same way, he is a savage, bloodthirsty Sahuagin, but has developed allies with The Armada (Who indeed accepts them!) So he has an amazing resource to draw on in the event he is attacked.
people fear attacking monsters for fear of reprisals, I was deathly scared after Killing Surksus of his allies attacking me (and still am!) Indeed, the monsters aren't what are deadly, the allies are!
Thomas, OUT
I did not generally kill monsters with my PCs because they were pathetic to kill with a fully equipped PC. With ECL most monsters are pretty terrible, except for a few exceptions, and it's really no fun to just walk over things in PvP. I just end up feeling very guilty in the end. I guess killing stuff that you've had no real interaction with, just because of what they are, seems for the most part contrived to me and not very fun for the other player. Because of this I just tend to avoid monsters if my PC would likely want to crush their skulls. If they were more powerful I would have no regrets with hunting them down and killing them, I think it would be a lot of fun, probably.
ECL is for the most part designed to balance a single questing party for traditional DnD. It does not make a whole lot of sense to balance a hated killing machine, when it is the imbalance of the creature that makes them interesting to fight, and hate. These monsters aren't supposed to be balanced, because if they're balanced, then they're not really that scary. Besides, I would go so far as to say that for the most part having two or three more levels, is far greater then any bonus for any subrace besides possibly Wereboar, or Lizardfolk.
I think the biggest issue with monster PC's I've seen is DM availability for pvp. So when I happen to stumble upon 3 orc PCs running around the base of the Ziggurat on their way to a quest I go to ping the DM channel so that I can have someone watching. By then the orcs are already buffing up and getting ready to pwn me. My element of surprise is completely gone and now I'm making a hasty escape.
This isn't always a case, but definitely a matter of what your (or the DM's) particular play time is. There is more DM presence now, but I think previous situations similar to the one above have made me lean away from pvp of that nature.
If anything I would say keep the LA where it currently is and instead adjust the starting level for various races. Perhaps a system of Standard Starting Level + ECL = Modified Starting Level.
So an ECL 2 character would start at level 4 for example, ECL 3 starts at level 5. Considering that characters of this nature are relatively rare and generally need pretty well developed applications to begin with, I believe DMs might entrust these added levels to a player.
As it stands, you can already blast to level 5 pretty quickly on the server, depending on your level of effort, and more people have been reaching the level 7 or 8 mark as well.
Starting with added levels also would cut an ECL character out of a lot of the early supply perks, so it's not all sunshine and smiles with the level boost.
Quote from: Conan The Conqueror;102233As it stands, you can already blast to level 5 pretty quickly on the server, depending on your level of effort, and more people have been reaching the level 7 or 8 mark as well.
Seriously? What the heck have YOU been grinding? It took me months to get to level 5 on the old EfU, and none of my EfUA chars have topped level 4 yet.
i made a character, cale colt.
i got him to 8 in 8 days.
if you powerquest hard enough. its possible.
Quote from: Gippy;102225I did not generally kill monsters with my PCs because they were pathetic to kill with a fully equipped PC. With ECL most monsters are pretty terrible, except for a few exceptions, and it's really no fun to just walk over things in PvP. I just end up feeling very guilty in the end. I guess killing stuff that you've had no real interaction with, just because of what they are, seems for the most part contrived to me and not very fun for the other player. Because of this I just tend to avoid monsters if my PC would likely want to crush their skulls. If they were more powerful I would have no regrets with hunting them down and killing them, I think it would be a lot of fun, probably.
ECL is for the most part designed to balance a single questing party for traditional DnD. It does not make a whole lot of sense to balance a hated killing machine, when it is the imbalance of the creature that makes them interesting to fight, and hate. These monsters aren't supposed to be balanced, because if they're balanced, then they're not really that scary. Besides, I would go so far as to say that for the most part having two or three more levels, is far greater then any bonus for any subrace besides possibly Wereboar, or Lizardfolk.
My sentiments
exactly. This is the essence of my suggestion, despite the thread being derailed long ago.
Most people play monstrous races for the challenge. Changing things that would take away from the challenge, would take away from the experience as well. I have seen low level monster races played beautifully, whereas my PC still didn't want to kill them, though he really didn't like them, Ixtiotl being on of them, for example.
I think it is up to the PC's playing these races to accept the challenge, not up to us to lower the standards for them.
I will just add that a friend of mine, a mechanically savvy player I respect a lot and who played plenty ECL characters, told me that ECL is really not "worth it" for the reasons Caddies already listed.
For reasons already stated (particularly by Gippy) I think lowering ECL or removing it altogether would be fine, as long as the prevalence of uncommon races remains consistent with previous standards.
So, I'll weigh in, why not?
I think ECL makes -perfect- sense if the mean lvl on the server was something like 12. All those buffed up subraces would then land around 6-9 on average, which is enough to do some damage.
However, I'm guessing the mean is actually somewhere around 6, which puts your ECLers at lvls too low to really effective.
QuoteI know in the past there's been talk of removing ECL completely.
I support Caddies in his Mad quest for power. If apps are tightened up and the powerful subraces well approved, they should be more powerful and not have to quest spam to be equal level with their counterparts.
I agree with Gippy, the ECL adjustment seems like it is to balance out a single player situation. In this setting, adjusting them down or adjusting the starting level of the character up would make sense.
When me and requiem played a drow and her half-drow slave, it was only a few weeks before the slave was lvl 8 and the drow was only lvl 4. :(
I was plotting an alternate concept should my current PC's inevitable defeat come, and I found the following:
Fire Genasi are quite possibly the worst subrace on the server, and they still get ECL 1
Elf subraces can give you better stats than they get (+2 int, -2 cha), and their only racial perk is +1 fire save, that goes up by +1 for every five levels.
How.
-How- is that worth ECL +1?
I say do away with it, and let the RP be the hinderance. They already have to app for the subrace. There is enough things that can be done by DMs and PCs to these classes in game to effect how "Successful" they are, without asanine mechanical hinderances like +1 ECL for +2 to your fire saves (Since no one ever gets above level 9, to my knowledge, especially with ECL), or other subraces that equally are supposed to be "Monsters" and "Feared". RP should influence it. RP should effect it.
ECL is, sadly, A cumbersome joke.
level adjustment
I've never had an app accepted *is bitter* and I really know very little about subraces/ECL. However, after reading these posts, I think several of the more hated/loathed subraces ought to have their ECL dropped.
Quote from: Halfbrood;103886level adjustment
How lame, we have anti-spam protection. Grumble.