Something that always sticks out on EfU is the tendency towards internal conflict as opposed to dealing with the Obvious Plot Doom. Not just for IC reasons but because we all know that PvP conflict is both easier to engage with and also likely to reward a PC with spotlight time/XP/stolen loot if they win. Not to mention faster as DM effort on PvP goes mainly to overseeing combat, not trying to direct the plot. Now, despite the Withering ostensibly slowly turning everyone to Undead I've not heard of any Undead PCs since EFU:A started.
I know it's probably controversial, but would the DMs consider making Undead Minions of H'bala something that's prominently appable? The reason I ask this is that if there are PC undead, then people are going to engage a lot more with the whole "Escape from Undeath" plot. As an example, consider werewolves. PC attacked by An Elder Werewolf at night. "Oh well, shit happens on Ymph". PC attacked by a PC Werewolf at night: "Batten down the hatches guys, we got us a werewolf infestation!". We're often told that player-driven conflict is good but only rarely does it directly touch on the main plot which tends to be DM-possessed monsters delivering Violent Exposition. The Ruby Invasion was a fantastic example of a big DM plot that had PCs running parts of it independently. I really enjoyed all the spying and subterfuge there.
If "Sentient Undead Lieutenant" could be available as a relatively weak monster race, then that offers a chance to play a pest with the potential to become a real threat, as opposed to a Rampaging Unstoppable Bastard of the Month like many monsters other than Goblins/Kobolds. It would also provide potential allies for necromancers without needing a DM plot. Yes, the Nightrisers/Pallid Mask did get a bit Red Vs Blue and often consist of powerbuilds. However, that could be avoided by balancing basic undead to be considerably less powerful than Riser PCs and with bonuses that relate not to personal power but spawning lesser minions. Remember that H'balan Undead aren't usually immune to Sneak Attacks or Crits, which makes them less vicious as a player race than Risers. I think they'd be good if balanced to need to rely on guerilla tactics, rather than solo-crushing groups like a lot of monsters.
Because I expect people will skim-read this and say "But Egon! You can already play one of these if you die to Withering and app!" I'll underline that these would be different. Not a dead PC coming back with all their stuff as a scary undead bastard, but a sentient animated being of H'bala sent out to spread the Withering and sow chaos. A way to put a PC face to the major plot and therefore paint a target on it for players who like PVP.
QuoteVague example, please don't turn it into a balance discussion on this sketch
H'balan Undead Saboteur (Subrace for any player race)- Immunity (level drain, attribute drain, Poison, Mind Spells)
- Undead
- -1 Will
- -2 CON
- -2 WIS
- Player Tool: Spawn Corruption. Places a random H'balan plant at the area, along with several H'balan Undead, power dependent on Player Level.
- Player Tool: Spread Withering. Adds Withering points to the targeted PC, grants XP to the Undead PC.
- May not enter areas of heavy Mist.
Unsure of the specific example but the principle I think is interesting.
HUGE effort, time and resources is going on internal conflict at the minute, and H'Bala is basically being left alone, with Tremarus gone no sendings for patrols of the Withered Lands etc.
Would be a nice change of pace to actually have some undead PC's to have conflict with perhaps.
Honestly I'd say no. It is too much like the Nightrisers which (While cool PCs and some good plots) was reduced to most monster PC status. PC Undead are cool, rare, and potentially epic.
I'd rather have a PC that succumbs to the withering, is forced to confront his friends and old town as a new enemy and monster parading around as a shocking horror of what could befall us all.
The current undead system It adds betrayal, depth, and intrigue to the server. Living PCs can either actively seek to serve H'bala or run about trying to fight her but both have potential to become undead.
That to me seems more fun than an Undead PC who shows up out of the blue to cause chaos.
I think you can app for this, though I suspect they want a certain type of PC for it? Or maybe the apps have been dull or noth worthy? Also being a minon of H'bala likely comes with knowing alot of very senseative information about the setting? Where would your HQ be? The H'bala Tower? Alot to consider when making this and infact I bet it already does likely loosely based off the Nightriser System.
I'm against this at first consideration. I don't like the fact that these PC's sole contribution to the server will be intelligent spawns. The withering has enough spawns that make it intimidating, and with a bit of DM spice the whole place gets spooky real fast.
Play a character whose interaction is more interesting. imo
I REALLY like this idea and would love to interact with these guys.
Why not turn it into a full blown dm faction, or mini faction? Have an undead servant of Hballa who is distant and rarely if ever speaks to the lich and is trying to hold onto his own sentience by spreading the withering to please Hballa and thus, made the group.
It would give PCs a chance to help remind us all the threat of the lich.
The Head Hunters were a mini-dm faction of Nightrisen PCs. They did not fulfill the intended goals of the faction and were shut down because of it.
If the faction is to have a purpose beyond antagonizing the server to hunting them down, then it must be made clear what these goals are.
I think it is a great idea. Just saying "No it sucks" gets us nowhere as he did point out some legitimate concerns regarding the current setup.
I see the Order worrying about the Conclave these days, not the Lichess. Everyone is talking about conflict between people who are still alive and the Withering is nothing more than an inconvenience. Our Escape from Undeath has succeeded, we've escaped and barely worry about it.
Making this new race sort of like the Stargazers where the app is fairly easy to have passed as opposed to other subraces would be good. You can't just dive in like you used to be able to with goblins and kobolds, but with a bit of effort (decent app) you can play a minor undead.
The undead aren't strong, they get pretty nasty penalties, and don't forget there's no turn resistance up there. These guys would be weak as hell. So let's not worry about them taking the thunder from more "legitimate" undead PC's. Perhaps after they succeed enough in whatever they said they'd do in their app they'd grow into full undead, but until then they would be fairly easy to take down.
Their goals seem to be to spread the Withering from the abilities listed. But there's a large number of other things they could do. Find the Crown, discover a weakness in the Mist, find and destroy hidden Stargazer homes and druid groves, build shrines to H'bala and worship her, convert living individuals to worship her, so on and so forth.
Or we could continue ignoring the lich, which aside from druids, is all I really see today beyond a few rare individuals.
How do you "spread" the withering anymore so with an Undead PC then a PC cultist of Hbala whose alive and can interact with the city on other levels? I mean, an undead is not going to be walking into Mistlocke. It's not going to have any friends outside the aforementioned cultists and other undead. It will be actively hunted more so then any monstrous PC, removes a player from the politics of mistlocke, and would require additional scripts and DM attention to pursue any "withering" of the land or even levelup.
Why is this a good thing?
As for "ignoring" the lich, that's a VERY IC response to a perceived insurmountable threat. And some are active in the hindering of these things while others are not. The withing is a threat everywhere, the red text telling you how much it sucks is consistent, and the DMs will push that megaplot at the pace they are comfortable with.
To be honest, ever since the pass fell, there has been a general feeling of "H'bala no big deal" Because it isnt knocking at our doors yet, Its not bouncing off the mists, I think having a faction of cultist dead pcs would be interesting and would once again make the server, "Escape from undeath" not "Escape from the Conclave". And I would say this as it would add a new faction to fight, not just some decision that these are the new badguys, H'bala is there, and she now has the pass. It would make sence that she would flood into the desert and now have stronger minons due to more area control and resources. My two cents.
These plots go in cycles. Give it a month and the angst against the Conclave will die down (to a degree) I am sure. Stop referring to really relatively recent developments as if they will change the direction of the server in a massive way.
This suggestion will. By incorporating an easy to apply for sub-race of undead PCs, this will throw into the spin an entirely new perspective of the undead of H'bala. I am uncertain if this will be a positive change or not. However, we can be sure that regardless of what happens, what the DMs do will be awesome.
I really don't see how these PCs will be anything other than KOS nuisances, NPC spawns without the "N." I'm not trying to be a naysayer, but I do think that people are missing that there's far more to the server plot than just H'bala.
For instance, Order PCs are pushing faction goals daily that don't involve the Conclave conflict. As a matter of fact, that bit of conflict only occupies a fraction of what the Order PCs are doing ingame.
I'm pretty certain that the same could be said for the Conclave PCs who have a lot of plots going on as I understand it, but people perceive only the obvious stuff that hits them in the nose day to day.
I am all in favor of this idea and think it would be great, but I want to comment I don't think the Order and others are "ignoring" the lich. The PCs involved all have their own motivations, some believe the Enclave the bigger threat, or the more urgent one, or were provoked by them.
Ask those fighting the Enclave IG why they think Razul comes first, I am sure they will be happy to tell you, people put up propoganda, go read it.
[left on a tree near the Scars bridge]
[tface=Walter]Tobias,
The Bear has dwelled on words spoken and wishes to meet. Name the place and the Bear will make himself known to you.
[/tface]
IMO leave it as it is, I like the idea of constant pc enemies who are out there to fight but this idea would be even more lonely/difficult to play than most monsters. I think if it were easily appable you'd just get a lot of ill thought out undead pcs running around for a week then dying or retiring as players get bored. I think it has some potential perhaps if there is already a major undead pc around, i.e a servitor as it's clear that said big shot undead will have definite goals and agendas to assist.
Point one, these aren't meant to be an easy app. I never said "easy", I said "prominent". You could apply for Undead right now, but it'd have to be a custom race and a fantastic app unles you wanted a Withered PC. Prominent would mean that it's listed as a given race on the site, but would still need a good concept, ideally a group.
My intention in suggesting with this is to have PCs who provide an unpredictable element to the Withering, with things cropping up where they aren't expected. For all the supposed failings of the Headhunters they were very, very good at making people paranoid of the Nightrisers. RwG, I agree that a Withered PC is cool, but unless I missed one, they're so rare we haven't had one. I thought of "Other H'balan Underlings" to keep Withered PCs rare and frightening events. I was thinking of these Undead being similar to Evil or aggressive Druids in how they provoke the rest of the playerbase into action.
QuoteStop referring to really relatively recent developments as if they will change the direction of the server in a massive way.
I guess my tone's off because that's exactly how I'm
not referring to them. This isn't about the whole Conclave vs Order conflict, that's just the latest example. I could have posted it equally during the last "It's Kill the Wildlings Time Again" or whatever cycle reached its "Team A vs Team B" stage.
What I am saying is that given a choice between "work on massive server changing plot" or "create excuses for everyone to start shivving each other" PvP tends to win out because it gives you immediate RP, resources if you win, and that all-important currency: DM Attention. If a DM is overseeing a combat they're there, paying attention to your PC's victory, grandstanding or crawl away from defeat. Or your attempts to turn NPCs against the enemy and so on. Regardless, the spotlight's on your character and the DM can see why your guy's interesting without having to go invent an encounter like they would if you were working on a peaceful plot or striking at NPCs.
Quote from: "Spiffy Has""the DMs will push that megaplot at the pace they are comfortable with."
Yes, but there have been numerous plots where the PCs who put all their effort into following it got nowhere, and the plot got tied up by some random characters because they were in the right place when a DM did push it. PCs tied to a plot (think Ruby Army, Spellguard, the Iron Chapter Mercenaries, Headhunters) let players interact with it without the need for DMs. It doesn't have to be that PvP actions against a H'balan Cult have
any effect at all on the plot, they just have to provide an avenue for external conflict.
Actually, I quite like the idea of a clear H'bala Thrall DM faction without the undead. The biggest problem I've got with undead is indeed trying to balance it so it doesn't attract players who powerbuild and crush everyone, or become a kobold-esque suicide squad.
Unless I'm mistaken, why cant you do something like this already? Just get a group of cultist Hbalates, sacrifice people to the withering, oppose any action any PC on the server takes against H'bala, use your living status as a way of infiltrating the enemies mist, spend lots of group time out in the withered land accumulating strength as you shed aside your mortal bodies, and just rock out. If and when you finally succumb, you'll have a history within the city, a faction that's still got those who are not undead yet (thus broader), the betrayal of other groups adds spice, and the rest of your faction will be shortly behind you as you then attempt to create the DM faction by proving that it is a valid narrative in the telling of it.
Unless I'm mistaken, why cant you do something like this already?
Just get a group of cultist Hbalates, sacrifice people to the withering, oppose any action any PC on the server takes against H'bala, use your living status as a way of infiltrating the enemies mist, spend lots of group time out in the withered land accumulating strength as you shed aside your mortal bodies, and just rock out. If and when you finally succumb, you'll have a history within the city, a faction that's still got those who are not undead yet (thus broader), the betrayal of other groups adds spice, and the rest of your faction will be shortly behind you as you then attempt to create the DM faction by proving that it is a valid narrative in the telling of it.