I think players seem to be in the mindset that they need to "win" at EFU. It's always been the mindset for some players and while I understand that some players find this aspect of EFU/NwN fun to others it's quite a harsh but I feel one or two measures could be used in order to "balance" PvP a little.
Option 1: A rule is put in place that "/c subdual full" should only be used under the following circumstances
- Combat is fully resolved (This means that everyone in one party has been subdued/fleed) This stops people FDing just because they look like they're starting to lose and just want take casualties with them.
- If the battle particularily "one-sided" then the lesser group is led to an appropriate place. This can either be Mistlocke, the Enclave, the Priory, the Stewards cave or to a particular remote place if you wish to keep the death hidden. This introduces an element of danger on the character for fear they are "caught" by someone who may be sympathetic to the defeated people. This allows for the PC to die with "dignity" and at least be able to take a screenshot of a half decent ending.
- Looting a full corpse should only be used in EXTREME cases since a) To manevuer realistically with a corpse long distances in an attempt to hide them is extremely difficult and unlikely for fear of being caught and b) the fact looted corpses aren't visible in any way leaves it too easy to meta-game.
Option 2 - Using "/c subdual full" results in a significant XP loss. This means that the higher level your character is, the less likely you are to FD someone just to "win". It has OOC implications on your character forcing you to think twice about FDing said character.
Option one has merit, option 2 is frankly silly.
I'm not sure there really is a balance issue to solve. As for the actual suggestions, I think it would be silly to try and implement the criteria, and more, would take away from the game more than it contributes to it. The second option is worse because it just doesn't make sense. I'd suggest people just be more mindful if there really is a problem with the use of full death currently and for victims to approach a DM whenever they feel they were in a circumstance that could have been dealt better. This way the DMs can look at it and even if the fd was fine, have a better idea of what actual things they may wish to implement as they will have the whole picture to work with.
Option 2 I even say myself isn't the "cleanest" option to be frank but my reasoning behind it is, people aren't mindfull at all. Call this thread due to partial butthurt but my character got FD'd today because I tried to knock a player to the ground using subdual (when they already had been subdued), they swung back and FD'd me. After which a DM said I could be raised but not respawned. Realistically though, who is willing to raise a character that's a day old? I /could/ make another yet my joint concept has been shattered as a result.
If the second option was in play they wouldn't have been set to "Subdual full" in the first place because they would HAVE to be mindful if only for their own characters sake. It lowers how many PC's might have to run to a DM shouting "grief".
QuoteOption 1: A rule is put in place that "/c subdual full" should only be used under the following circumstances
- Combat is fully resolved (This means that everyone in one party has been subdued/fleed) This stops people FDing just because they look like they're starting to lose and just want take casualties with them.
- If the battle particularily "one-sided" then the lesser group is led to an appropriate place. This can either be Mistlocke, the Enclave, the Priory, the Stewards cave or to a particular remote place if you wish to keep the death hidden. This introduces an element of danger on the character for fear they are "caught" by someone who may be sympathetic to the defeated people. This allows for the PC to die with "dignity" and at least be able to take a screenshot of a half decent ending.
- Looting a full corpse should only be used in EXTREME cases since a) To manevuer realistically with a corpse long distances in an attempt to hide them is extremely difficult and unlikely for fear of being caught and b) the fact looted corpses aren't visible in any way leaves it too easy to meta-game.
I thought this was all more or less accepted and encouraged practice already.
Nothing is going to change. If you want to play here, you have to accept that someday your pc will be full damaged, sometimes for an unknown or made up reason.
People would much rather endlessly pvp each other than do anything else such as try to solve the settings mysteries.
Having to pay xp to full damage someone is actually a good idea though as it would make them question how much they actually want this person out of the way.
Quote from: DwarvenWhore;282034Option 2 I even say myself isn't the "cleanest" option to be frank but my reasoning behind it is, people aren't mindfull at all. Call this thread due to partial butthurt but my character got FD'd today because I tried to knock a player to the ground using subdual (when they already had been subdued), they swung back and FD'd me. After which a DM said I could be raised but not respawned. Realistically though, who is willing to raise a character that's a day old? I /could/ make another yet my joint concept has been shattered as a result.
If the second option was in play they wouldn't have been set to "Subdual full" in the first place because they would HAVE to be mindful if only for their own characters sake. It lowers how many PC's might have to run to a DM shouting "grief".
I understand what you're saying, but I think I know the situation you speak of.
You attacked a captured person/being, aberrant that was caught to be killed and executed. You chose to end the talk, and attacked them while being very wounded yourself, to play your character that got tired of talking to monsters.
However, you need to understand what you did. You attacked monster, that was not shackled or restrained any more than having been beaten and then allowed to stand up again. It was able to retaliate, and it did. You were like, badly injured or near death, and got struck down. Wouldn't a convict in real life try to claw someone to death even in handcufs if they knew they were going to die and got nothing to lose?
In this situation, you died because of your own choice. You could have healed up, not attacked at all or others could have helped you - which they did not before it was too late. It was their choice and also IC. As unfortunate cruel as it may sound, you chose to not heal beforehand and took it for granted that you could carelessly take action without it having any consequence to yourself.
We must remember that there are situations where beings/monsters are killed for being what they are, but people that also aim to kill them, open themselves to the chance of being killed by these monsters.
Regarding the suggestion in itself, even if it was fueled by this event, I try to give my opinion. I don't think it can, nor that it should be changed. It is part of efu, and of course DM's see and watch over the use of FD and subdual, and if some eagerly go killing people without there being any reasonable cause for it, they will take action. All that you spoke of is already considered good behavior and common courtesy in general.
I agree with Paha 100%
Always assume your PvP opponent is on FD. No matter what you or they are doing and how many others are laying around [subdued]. I learned to do that a while back and ever since I find it easier to take the death of my PC or "accidentally" FDing somebody because I forgot to switch to subdual. This train of thought is a deterrent in itself as it makes you think that ANY PvP can lead to your PC's retirement.
Quote from: Cerberus;282046This train of thought is a deterrent in itself as it makes you think that ANY PvP can lead to your PC's retirement.
I think this is the best way of thinking about it. You need to realize each PvP situation, however small, could result in permanent death. Things change on EfU very rapidly.
Don't let this discourage you from taking risks, though- the most memorable characters are those that took on incredible odds, and won. But for each of those, ten characters failed to outlive those odds.
Just because the name isn't "Bandit, Veteran" or "Wild Orc Berserker" and they're glowing red all the time doesn't mean they won't kill you. Keep this in mind. A kobold pc is just as likely to kill you straight up as a kobold npc, and likewise everyone else them. When engaging in pvp always plan for the worst. Murderous criminals and monsters are exactly that. Just because they are a PC character doesn't mean they're going to be much nicer than their npc equivalents. Those option 1 suggestions are basically how it's done right now already. Once in a while though you'll have that one person that randomly ganks you in an alley on FD mode simply to steal one item they know you are carrying. It sucks, but it happens.
I wouldn't mind seeing the first thing implemented simply because there's almost no reason to just straight out full death someone in the middle of the fight. It certainly doesn't encourage fun and definitely doesn't give way to better roleplay because nine out of ten times, FDing someone without roleplaying out the action/situation will result in a player watching an unsatisfying loading screen before they're informed that they aren't returning from the fugue. If anything, it should at least be mentioned in the rules as being good etiquette. I certainly don't feel as if a FD should occur until combat is indisputably resolved.
I learned some time ago that no mercy is permitted in the dangerous world of EfU. If it's IC to kill someone, do it.
They don't usually return the OOC favor of letting their character live.
EFU will alwyas be based around PvP with a sprinkle of RP, it's been like that for so long and doubt it will change. People would much rather kil eachother endlessly in an areana style than delve deep into awesome mysteries and lore, not saying a few PCs don't come out from time to time and ROCK that aspect of EFU though! Full Death killing happens, often for dumb reason or reasons you might not see or agree with but make sense for the other PC.
Quote from: The Boom King;282071I learned some time ago that no mercy is permitted in the dangerous world of EfU. If it's IC to kill someone, do it.
They don't usually return the OOC favor of letting their character live.
I disagree with you there. As leader of the Abberants I've not killed any of the druids who I've subdued. While I know they will not and cannot spare me for ic reasons. I don't feel that it is tasteful to slay people outright for fear they are not going to show you the same courtesy.
It really is impossible to be a good character without enemies. Slaying them is counter productive. It can be tempting to end the threat and get a bunch of potions and gold in the process. But you should always stop and think about ll the wonderful interactions will spawn from their attempts on your life.
From what I've personally seen, FDing your enemies leads to two things, not having enemies anymore. And also often you don't get new ones since players aren't so fond of engaging if they don't think their PC will get mercy from a PC they perceive as much more powerful than there's.
This isn't to say that FDs should never happen, because there's a time for them. But to be honest, just doing what makes IC sense is often counter-productive.
FDing doesn't only kill PCs, it can actually kill conflict, not encourage it.
People seem to be ascewing from my general point. FD's sometimes make sense. Fact! FD's sometimes are necessary - Fact!
But to go into combat in full subdual mode is just spiteful. As I said, I was a little pissed about my own character, yet another of the Aberrants involved was also FD'd straight away after being subdued while the rest were allowed at least to march to Mistlocke and be "sentenced". Why couldn't this option have been given to ALL involved?
My point is simply, promote at ALL times possible for FD to be reduced so that when an FD DOES happen that it is severely significant. And the options that I gave promote this fact. Because contrary to what some say on here, I do honestly believe that FD is just seen as an "I win" scenario... And has 0 thought or significance put into it by a large amount of players.
I've had characters FD'd with alot of forethought but into it. Some players are great for this. While others just FD without significant cause or necessity but out of spite because "they're losing" or "if I can't win, you can't".
Death it happens, actualy it will always happen. There is no point where you are Exempt from being perma killed. Every quest you do, every time you log in. You may be inches from your character ending. Like in real life, you can be shot in an dark hall and robbed, or they could beat the shit out of you leaving you there robbing you.
EFU you can die at the drop of a hat, its up to you to make it not happen.
Allies, Networks, spys, investments, and, other things can save you. You know instead of hording coin toss it at allies, and invest in them, make them see you as someone important to keep alive, as you provide for them.
Perhaps if you had an extra ally amougst the horde of murderous city goers, you would have had another moment of life.
My 2 cents
I believe this has been adequately discussed. Yes, it was probably a jerkish, and OOCly unkind thing to do, but I imagine if a man is about to die, he'll strangle the first thing that comes his way.
Sorry about your PC, but you can always make a new one! <3
To DwarvenWhore -
I understand where you're coming from. I don't know the specifics of this situation, but in general, I absolutely agree that there is a play-to-win tendency that rears its head now and then and can result in some unpleasant situations.
Those players tend to accrue some rather bad karma (with other players) which sees them finding less mercy on their own.
The issue with trying to further litigate those situations is that it creates a situation in which the DM team breathes down the necks of players about all these little details, and comes to consensus agreements about every in-game event.
That, at least in my opinion, creates an us-versus-them mentality where the DMs are seen like auditors, and it opens the door to a lot more concerns about favoritism/so-and-so-DM-hates-me/etc.
It sucks that unfortunate things happen, but barring clear rules violations, we prefer to err on the side of player empowerment which, while it may result in some unpleasant situations, creates a greater sense of freedom and fairness for the server at large.
In a sense, we want to be seen as guides and co-players, not as police.
Having been present for the situation you spoke of, I can tell you that the PC who was killed straight away specifaclly reqeuested to simply be killed if they were to die as they did not want to drag it out. This was a players OOC decision and nothing to do with misuse of FD etc.
You've stolen my forum avatar.
BOM: I completely support this attitude. The less DM intervention is required, the more easily the PvP will flow. I do agree that frustrating and bad PvP may tempt in the other direction, but often these things can be resolved simply through allowing yourself to cool down and then speak calmly and politely with the other players involved. It may turn out that they have an entirely different viewpoint and that it seemed fair to them, or even that it was a complete screwup on their part and that they regret what happened.
Speaking to someone in the heat of the moment is almost always a bad idea and is to be avoided. I know this from bitter experience and even these days I sometimes still make that mistake. But somehow it never seems to help dialogue or comprehension very much to call your opponent a dick, question his/her parentage or throw accusations of griefing around. :(
As to switching modes in mid-combat and running around and FDing subdued enemies, yes, it is questionable and has a horrible tendency to escalate, but remember that nothing kept the enemy from being on full damage from go in which case the subdued characters would almost certainly have been dead anyway. Still, as BOM says, what goes around has a tendency to come around. (The argument that "the enemy will just come back and kill me tomorrow anyway" never held much water with me because I would rather cut someone a break and later discover I was wrong about it than kill someone too readily and ruin her or his fun.)
~tOH.