I feel like I have put in decent work since I got here. I have roleplayed with boatloads of other characters for numerous hours of the day. To be honest I play too much..
Now I'm starting to get frustrated. I have a two-week old character who has done really very little. I get no DM interaction outside of what becomes server-wide mobfests. I put in time and effort and get nothing in return. My reputation in game grows, my levels grow, people respect me until... they realize my character sucks. I have no gold, my weapon is the same one I arrived with and now that I'm level 8 there is nothing to do.
I guess I could always go die and drop back down to the fun levels where you can actually play with other people.. but I want to progress!
I really try to do fun plot things, and my character is indeed involved in some affairs, but realistically I can't do anything combat-oriented because I am a gear-dependent class with no gear.
I see other players waving around their magic weapons and showing them off. I wonder how I might ever get one and realize that I probably never will. Not everyone can be catered to, and that's fine, but why can't I even find a crappy +1 damage sword? In fact I'm forced to use weird weapons like spears, maces, clubs, and tridents in order to prove that i'm "different" and "unique". How long do I have to roleplay and exist before anyone ever actually notices me?
To further complicate things I have recently found myself not even wanting to participate in higher level quests. The monsters on this server are far too powerful, but not because of their strength or damage. It is because of near-uncontrollable disabling effects that border on retardation. Why in a single fight am I being knocked down by NUMEROUS foes in a mob, aoe str drained MULTIPLE times, level drained 2lvls at a time, blind, deaf, AND being entangled? This is on top of magic missiles and other magical damage and the insane number of mobs beating on you. This coupled with a very very old laggy game like NWN, and poor maneuverability make combat a NIGHTMARE.
In order to live through a quest you -must- metagame. There are so many race/monster specific abilities that crush you unless you have specifically prepared to combat them. Many of the quests will cause you to burn through nearly all of your items that you've been hoarding until this point. Without a stacked team and at least one player who has done it previously you will lose someone.
And finally I feel as if the combat here has morphed into something that couldn't be further from what Tabletop Dungeons and Dragons is like.
If you are not a fighter or a cleric then you are invisible. If you aren't invisible then you're dead. Healing is no longer just for the cleric class, now everyone who isn't a beefed up ac-machine gets to huddle together and use their items to continuously spam-heal the tanks from invis. Fun!
I do not spare my buffs or potions. I drink my ghostly, divine favor, str, endurance, barkskin like everyone else and I am still disabled or killed by something out of my control like a surprise death-magic spell being hurled at me.
Beautiful server, amazing lore, great players, great STORIES..but the combat and enemies are the worst ever. I do not enjoy standing in place for nearly all of a fight while invisible teammates spam their heal items on me just so I don't disintegrate. I do not want to be forced to play in this specific survival-based style that is custom to this server. To be honest I feel like it diminishes creativity and diversity when players do specific things to survive, or play a specific style of character who needs to be unique to be noticed.
So, what do you think? Am I a fickle noob,or do my complaints have any merit?
EfU can be a stressful place, and especially at your level the fights are difficult. It's not meant to be like tabletop, tabletop would be drastically different.
With fame, levels and supplies comes plots, and with plots sometimes comes loot. Joining a faction helps in this regard.
Ultimately you'll be happier if you never look at people's DM loot or screenshot threads, and never worry about getting loot yourself. Focus on the story and having fun. Really, just don't worry about it.
As for quests, they are all about strategy, not metagaming or who has the most loot. It's about a team with various strengths and weaknesses working together. Plan it out. Who will do what in a fight. Who will heal, who will tank, who will flank, what buffs will you have when you go in and which will you have in reserve. Usually this means that the random sending quest groups are woefully unprepared for the tougher quests.
I'm sorry you feel so frustrated, I recently had similar feelings of being ignored. Best to just tough it out and focus on the things you like about the server, eventually someone might give you a hand.
Also, level 8 is always a tough level. Best to join a faction and get involved in plots at that point. Personally, when I hit level 8 I try to stop questing and focus purely on plots and my character's agenda, and if I ever hit level 9 it will be off of DM XP.
If your character is constnatly being proactive, and risking permadeath DMS will reward you, and give you loot. So be proactive incluide others, and make some enemies.
Big league characters eventually fall over dead. If you're around for awhile and have the means, you can ascend to the top.
I can't remember his name, but there's a Gnome (or Dwarf) that's been around for a long time. Nobody pays him any mind but he's sitting on a giant pile of gold and can probably get his hands on anything his little heart wants.
Time has a way of rewarding people who wait and are around when the shift of power begins. I'm not looking for recognition because it gets characters killed alot from what I've seen, but I'm sure eventually I'll be sitting on some pretty useful equipment.
The Combat is rough.
I should have mentioned that, that singular quest, is the most difficult in EFU.
Sorry if I turned you off from the server.
I learned a long time ago, "never expect, always hope". What I mean, is I never expect to be 'noticed' or rewarded for anything by players or DM's, but I always hope that I somehow managed to make my characters story fun for everyone I come in contact with.
As for levels and quests. Do the ones that make sense for your character, at your level you can be picky about what you do and don't do. I can tell you, I have died more often than I've lived on any high level quest. In the almost 4 years I've been here, I've managed to get 1 character to 9th level, and maybe 1 more to 8th. I am not mechanically inclined at all when it comes to NwN.
Don't think of this as an online Table Top Game, it is a unique world with unique players and monsters. Yes we are based in DnD cannon, but with the number of custom changes to class and monsters it's easier to think of it as totally unique world.
Our DM's here are usually very helpful and are willing to try to run unique things for your character if you let them know what you are trying to do. Now don't take this to mean that they will run or do everything you want them to do, we have few DM's to players, so they can't do it all. But, if it's something you have worked for IG, something you have involved others in, and something interesting, generally they are willing to help.
Just try to tell your characters story as best you can. Find interesting points of view on things, or maybe a unique quirk, something (aside from the weapon they use) that makes your character different from "Fighter #234325". EFU gives us all a chance to tell an evolving story, not just your characters, but all of those he / she comes in contact with. You might start out as a C/G Bard and end up a C/E Moander Cultist. (Yup, had it happen to one of my characters) If you let those around you influence you, change you in some small way, it is amazing just where your character may end up.
Any way.. I've rambled long enough. Just have fun, don't sweat the small stuff.
If you would like to chat about it, you can generally find me in #efu on irc.
EfU is set up the way it is for very good reason. For many, it can take some time to become accustomed to it, and it simply is not a match for certain people.
But for those who persevere and realize the merits of the server, it is an amazing experience. Feel free to find me in chat.
Don't blame yourself Alura. For the first time ever I was standing there winning a fight, fully-healed and hating every second of it. I was being disabled in every way possible and it just wasn't fun to quaff potions repeatedly to fight off all of these effects and stay alive. My main complaint is the mass-amount of disabling moves against us- and death spells are crap. I feel bad for Sid. It was this that made me question, why I am even bothering to progress if this is what I have to look forward to.
I was in a great party with great players who blew tons of stuff keeping me alive before the level drains zapped me. I definitely don't blame anyone involved, and that is why I am upset. None of the players did anything wrong.
Death spells are always a mood killer, on quests or events. Basically it's how you stop PCs from getting too confident in their abilities because it's an instant death that can't be avoided other than sheer ooc luck. Most people don't have any special DM loot of any sort, though you can get uniqueish items from high level quests.
And yes, in order to do anything you really do have to have prior server experience to semi meta it. Even if you were doing something as simple as some of the level 5-6 cap quests a group would be utterly mutilated if they didn't know how to prepare for it. There really are four types of characters: Frontliners, invis-suppourt healers, rogues, and townfolk.
It's a rough and unrewarding place, EFU. You're going to get your ass kicked again and again, you're going to have everything you gain whisked away at a moments notice. Possessions are fleeting at best, and when you do get something nice, there are other PCs who will like it and surely try to take it from you. If you can look past it the rewards are in the lore you uncover and what you accomplish in the greater story. I feel very similarly to you and that is why I try to avoid a lot of these things that just are not fun for me and focus more on building, on creating groups or events for others to enjoy. Don't worry about working around what is, or taking what is and making it part of yourself. If it is frustrating you then step back and try building for others to enjoy instead. It comes with its own sense of gratification even if not rewarded with physical representations like items.
You don't have to go out into combat. Kyra's always got the local magic community and Clarice to take care of her. I do enjoy feeding her songs and bardic items hehe. EFU is a -very- frustrating place, especially when new to it, but a good group of friends makes it so much easier and more fun.
Thomas (Apocalypse Now/Alura) took you on one of the most difficult quests on the server. It's insanely hard (but fun!). That quest is in no way indicative of most of the "regular" quests.
We all die (me more than most), but I assure you something will come along if you make IC friends and just play your character. There are a hundred plots going on and you are bound to get involved with one, if not many.
Don't give up on us. We're worth the steep learning curve.
Feel free to message me in-game (PupEfUM) or on the forums with any questions.
QuoteNow I'm starting to get frustrated. I have a two-week old character who has done really very little. I get no DM interaction outside of what becomes server-wide mobfests. I put in time and effort and get nothing in return. My reputation in game grows, my levels grow, people respect me until... they realize my character sucks. I have no gold, my weapon is the same one I arrived with and now that I'm level 8 there is nothing to do.
This is how modern EFU functions. Loot is extremely rare and, while frustrating, you simply have to utilize your personal growths as a measurement of success rather than any other thing.
QuoteEfU is set up the way it is for very good reason. For many, it can take some time to become accustomed to it, and it simply is not a match for certain people.
I disagree with that. It's been openly stated that loot or "rewards" are heavily lacking by others of the staff (as of late), and to say it was setup this way is simply wrong. Either way, find your enjoyment from personal character gains and relationships, they are rewarding in themselves.
I would like to say, from an OOC perspective, I feel almost like a mechanical leech. My current character contributes next to nothing to faction PvP, and upon that rare and odd occasion he partakes of a scripted quest, as a spellcaster he is taking mad risks and roleplaying a confident yet incompetent elven magus who stabs at the world with his pathetic alchemically derived magical dagger.
I can only thank my fellow players who heal him before he dies, as he so often comes near to. And I think you, dear original poster, should consider the OOC benevolence of your fellow player, in that they enable you to portray such mechanically incompetent characters.
Perhaps I am alone in this, though I think I am not, for EFU is a closed community indeed, of individuals who realise the setting they create is dependant upon the contributions of their fellow players.
So to end my intrigue, dear "BASTARD!" please stay with us and help us create the wonderful fantasy universe that is Escaped from Underdark: Mistlocke.
A couple of tips I once recieved from a DM about getting DM attention and avoiding lulls when few people are about:
Be proactive: Even if its just doing a scripted quest, arrange stuff, get people together IG. See what Alura Hiddencrypts player just did. Arrangement something to go do a less common quest. Tricker quests = more interesting items as well. In fact the very high ones occasionally have better things than much of the DM loot given out!
Have something to do in your concept in the "down times": When the server is quieter, you have hit a higher level or you IG buddies aren't about, have something you can still "do" IG. Examples:
Merchant - Buy Low, Sell High, Get Rich
Spy - Sneak about listening to random conversations
Mapper - Create maps and then sell maps
Archeaologist - Find a Dungeon
Crazy Preaching Cleric - Rant Rave Repeat
Explorer - Get every bit of exploration xp going
Duelist - Challenge every PC you meet to a fight
It has been said, but do not think that Sinister Enclave is representative of the difficulty of many quests on efu. A simple glance at the level range will tell you just how hard its expected to be considering its a 4-12 and even level 10 is uncommon. As for the fixation on death magic, I can count the number of instances where you encounter it on one hand and other supplies will help you deal with other issues. As for DM and PC recognition, like others have made clear, its about finding your goals and pushing for them. Involving others in this and making it interesting will encourage support. Standing idle in the town square isn't fun for anybody, whereas for example a undead fighting pc might organise a patrol and thus explore the island with allies. Its risky but undoubtedly fun and likely to further said pcs goals whilst contributing to others enjoyment.
The higher end it gets the more ridiculously hard it gets. It's probably because usually people that do go on quests at that end are year-old veterans with boatloads of experience that would fall asleep if they weren't being hit by 20 mobs with Death Attack that all blind you on hit while invisible casters drop Ice Storm on you.
I don't know what to say. If it wasn't this hard there'd be little challenge to the ancient ones. One day, or with their help, we'll be able to face those odds too. Until then it's probably best to stay away, unless you are with people that know what they are doing.
I sort of agree with one thing: it is almost needed to "meta-game" slightly sometimes unless you want to spend more than you will earn. Usually they are good about giving you hints- but not always. And some behavior is so deeply ingrained that it doesn't seem like meta-gaming anymore- like encyclopedic knowledge of spell effects, PvP potion combinations, what to do vs. certain monsters and so on.
I suppose you can rationalize it by saying that we're adventurers and at a higher level we'd probably know those things in a world that is so consumable-dependent and deadly.
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That said, EfU has actually gotten much easier. You can now get to level 8 effortlessly. They give you 6 for free. That is plenty to do all the plotting and PvP you might want. No need to grind further, unless you enjoy the quests (I do!) and there's nothing else to do right now.
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Also, stop hoping for that DM-given weapon. It's hit or miss. Doing your plot stuff and being interesting directly correlates to your odds of getting some loving - but it's just that, odds. Maybe you're the best player we've ever seen, but DMs aren't seeing it. Maybe they are seeing it but they are busy. Maybe, maybe, maybe.
You can't force these things. Just do your best.
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You should probably also hang around other cool characters and do stuff with them. What's better than watching 1 cool character do cool stuff? Watch a bunch of cool characters do cool stuff! That might even inspire a quest or some plot hook.
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Go get them, tiger.
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Edit: Another thing. A lot of those cool weapons to see were gotten through blood and sweat and extreme risk. They don't usually drop from the sky. But if they see this gutsy barbarian who picks fights at level 4 against higher levels and somehow gets away with it, that's worth rewarding the huge risk- especially if it's a fight that actually adds to the world in some meaningful way.
As you noticed, death is everywhere on EfU. A lot of those cool weapons you see came with the pricetag of odds of permanent death. If you think about it that way, not having one doesn't seem all that bet, does it?
If you flirt with danger smartly you'll probably lose a couple of characters. But the ones that stick are going to kick ass, let me tell you!
Never compare what you have to what others may have. You will always overestimate the differential and you'll become estranged and bitter. A reputation is more important than loot - be known for your schemes and dynamism, not your greed or hesitations.
Develop and rabidly pursue an agenda for your character. Do not betray your character's goals or persona for short term gains.
Study NWN. It's nuanced, but not difficult to learn. Once you learn the spells, the rest follows.
Ignore utterly people who attempt to establish a dichotomy between NWN familiarity and roleplaying; they are in fact symbiotic and not exclusive concepts on EFU.
Find and follow the dynamic people. Avoid the boring people, even if they are less mercurial.
Embrace conflict, master its forms subtle or otherwise. To outmanoeuvre your enemies, whether playing Good or Evil, is an essential skill.
Ask the veterans questions, soak up their knowledge and apply it to future concepts.
Take risks, don't be afraid to lose. Consider a character death an opportunity to make something new, not a disaster to be avoided at any cost. This is key - ignore posts like Pool's above, that mentality is cancerous.
QuoteTake risks, don't be afraid to lose. Consider a character death an opportunity to make something new, not a disaster to be avoided at any cost.
This is very much how I believe that everyone should approach their characters, and the server as a whole. Death is a system that is crucial to successful roleplay and it is the essence of the knowledge of in game death that allows conflict and character goals to grow. Embrace the fact that Ymph is a harsh and unforgiving environment and enjoy the reality that the server presents and offers.
Your achievements are your own, regardless of how and when they are verified by others. Loot is not something to aim for, at least in my opinion, as it is the lasting memory of a successful, well interpreted character that leaves an impression on the players; not what armour or weaponry they're sporting.
There is a lot of great advice here, but I will comment on DM attention. Like success, I believe it is a formula to get the results you like.
Play times: This isn't too big, but Dm's won't take notice if they aren't there to see it.
PvP: Beating down other players for whatever reason will bring you to Dm attention.
Being loud: If you do not post on the forums regularly, have a character note, and make sendings fairly frequently, you will fly under the radar, even if you have a good concept and rp well.
Your RP: Even if you do all of the above, poor rp will turn any Dm off.
I am likely missing things that may add, and perhaps do to concept or RL some of those things are out of your control, but that appears to be how it works.
I will merely link this thread (http://www.escapefromundeath.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19553), and say that players (particularly new players) who want some solid advice are welcome to speak with me on #efu some time. Unfortunately at this time I am not actively DM'ing so can't help in game.
Hey Bastard. That quest, as Thomas says, is pretty much the hardest quest on here. We did pretty decently for a bit, but in the end we were crushed. I don't think anyone has completed it or even attempted it in a quite a long time.
Imagine if these higher level quests didn't have these difficulties, and they were relatively easier to complete. That would make for a server full of high level PCs, and no scripted quests that seem truly frightening and risky. The fact that it is so difficult is what makes it feel like a genuine accomplishment. It's the same way with most things in EfU.
Surviving isn't always easy. Being proactive may lead to situations which are not easy to overcome. Getting DM attention is not easy (though I agree with VanillaPudding that DM loot is not the best measurement of this). Ultimately, when you are able to accomplish something that is this difficult and risky, it is rewarding.
I think many of us have shared your frustrations at some point. I know I did. Yet I played on because the enjoyment outweighed the frustrations, and in the end, the things that were frustrating weren't really as important.
Also, you said "My reputation in game grows, my levels grow, people respect me until... they realize my character sucks." That's insane. Yesterday was the first time I have seen your character but he seemed damn strong. Surviving for most of that quest speaks to that fact. Play on player.
Easy to disagree with the straw man. Anyway, a quick point:
Quote from: MirrorMask;284812PvP: Beating down other players for whatever reason will bring you to Dm attention.
Be wary of the meaning of this statement. Many people believe that mere PvP is a quick route to DM attention. They are right, we WILL notice PvP.
We will notice everything about the PvP. Was it tasteful, warranted, fair, interesting, etc. That attention you've gained for yourself may not be positive if your PvP does not positively contribute.
PvP is far more than simply 'beating people down'.
I really appreciate all of the responses and the thought put into them. I just wanted to clarify a couple of things.
Magical Weaponry - I am not griping about not obtaining DM specific loot. I understand that I would really need to impress in order to be deserving of something like that. For example, those screenshots of Castor Erasmus The Fury are mind-blowing. Not the gear necessarily, but the amazing amazing roleplay that went behind that character. My complaint is more with the types of obtainable non-dm loot. As Musterman Bronn I have come across many fascinating items. Armor, weapons, and trinkets.
It feels like I see boatloads of amazing 5/2 armors. Great for barbarians, but I am a fighter. I would love to be a dex fighter, but going limp as soon as I'm flatfooted is the pits.
I also see very nice light armors as well, especially for casters (bonus spell slots!). These armors, like the medium armor, usually have several skill bonuses and are quite interesting.
It follows the same pattern with weaponry. I have come across fantastic maces, rapiers, spears, tridents, hammers, axes. As a fighter I feel like my focus is on my weapon. I have taken my weapon spec and become limited in my choices. Why should I not -gain- from my fighter feat?
Tons of cool custom loot exists out there to obtain without any DM help. Like I said before though, it pushes you to use specific weapons. Do I have to be a spear wielder? Do I need to make a fighter who uses a staff or club?
This is my second death on Bronn Karthat. I am not upset about the dying. Even as I was alive and fighting, I was disappointed in the combat itself. Now knowing the full difficulty of this quest I am far less frustrated about that.
A day prior to this, while patrolling with Alura, we passed the quest in question. Alura then set-up the expedition which would occur the following day. When seeing the quest a day in advance, it is listed as 4-12. What level 4 could ever survive this quest? I understand that there are certain expensive potions that can negate certain damage types here. I used them. If this is known by so many to be The Hardest Quest, then for the love of the gods don't lull me into a false sense of ooc security when I see the 4.
I'm pretty much over this experience. It really was a difficult quest. Knowing of its reputation alleviates a lot of the anger that I had previously felt towards it. After respawning I parted on a bad note, and would like to apologize to the DMs who were overseeing things at the time. I was heavily frustrated and should have just alt+f4d instead of making a snide remark immediately before alt+f4ing.
You will generally find weaker weapons/less commonly used weapons or armours have better bonuses for obvious reasons. If you use something like a bastard sword then it is already far superior to a dagger or a light hammer, thus finding improved versions is more difficult. Finding powerful classes of weapons with +damage etc is rare, unless only applicable to a certain race.
Quote from: Divine Intervention;284823You will generally find weaker weapons/less commonly used weapons or armours have better bonuses for obvious reasons. If you use something like a bastard sword then it is already far superior to a dagger or a light hammer, thus finding improved versions is more difficult. Finding powerful classes of weapons with +damage etc is rare, unless only applicable to a certain race.
This, to me, is an issue. Why do I have to feel like a guilty min/maxer because I use a BASTARD! sword? I love hand and a half swords. It is such an ideal weapon in my mind, and a common one used throughout the ages by all sorts of badasses.
As far as I can tell I have to waste a feat in order to get 2 more points of damage. Is that really such a big deal? I think an enchanted longsword or spear with any type of elemental damage and enhanced crit quickly becomes a better tool on a server like this.
If I could wield my bastard sword with two-hands I would. I don't use it to couple it with a tower shield for max dmg/ac. If I could actually apply 2h str dmg I would throw my shield into the garbage. I guess these are just the prices I pay for making him with no knowledge of the server weaponry.
What is stopping you from using your bastard sword with two hands? Aside from mechanical limitations, you could consistently emote, "Wields the Bastad sword with two hands" and be a complete and utter badass doing so without a shield. A DM -will- take notice! Trust me, it's sweet shit.
I've done this with warhammers in the past when my PC was technically using a MAUL, I used a normal warhammer but used it with both hands, and I got a sexy, sexy 1d4 extra bludgeon dmg maul out of it.
Just saying, if you can tastefully gimp your PC into an interesting and notable design, people will applaud it. You see people with greatswords tanking quests, so you can feasibly do it without weakening your PC in the slightest.
Bastard there is a simple way to get attention here and that is if your actions involve others and they have fun when being involved. All of RwG's plots involve others as well as Caddies who has had some of the most memerable and successful people on the server. Look on the legends post on the forum and you will see atleast a couple of their past characters there. Why? Because not only were they good at the game and successful they also made it a point to make sure that others were involved in their plots and had fun. With a combination of others having fun and you doing something cool you are in a sense "Winning EFU". When you're upset about not having custom loot that others have you have to sit there and ask yourself "What is that guy doing right?" Does he have forum posts all over telling others to join him? Does he actively seek others to have fun with him? You'll find that there are some with DM loot who were in the right place at the right time, which is a big part of getting -some- DM loot. However the guys like the Fury with his epic loot o' plenty was one of the best characters that ever graced our server and I for one went on a few of the events he was responsible for and I had a great time and could tell his character was well thought out, roleplayed and meant for others to enjoy themselves in his interactions.
Winning in pvp can get you attention, yes...but like JaydeMoon said it has to be tasteful or others will think you are griefing them. This is not WoW when you kill someone in pvp they are dead. Did the reason you killed them have merit? Was it necessary to kill that person or did you just completely stop interesting conflict that the entire server could enjoy? Are you strong enough to defeat them again or was this victory one in a million versus impossible odds? All these things are important to consider as it is pointless to crush a weaker PC simply because you had a disagreement, and if you let them live another day how big of a threat are they to you anyhow?
What DI means is that to find a +1 dmg longsword is the same as finding a -1 dmg bastard sword. The long sword is not superior to that bastard sword because it has +1 dmg because the bastard sword still out damages it. By picking a more powerful weapon you do not then need the enhancement that is brought by a magical longsword. The DM team evens this out by making less powerful weapons up to snuff on occasion. This does not mean they are way more powerful than your bastard sword, just that they are usually not equal to it with maybe one or two more useful features.
The reason for the low minimum level caps are numerous, mainly to be inclusive for factions/other groups that have a reason to be questing together despite vast differences in levels. To determine a quest's difficulty you should rather look at the maximum cap.
If the limitation is 3-10 it is highly likely to be a very difficult quest, designed to prove a challange even for characters that have already obtained level 10. If you are a level 3 character you are similarly highly unlikely to progress very far in this quest without characters closer to the high end cap in your party.
As for the thread in general, I would simply take a step back, relax and give myself time to understand and be influenced by the gameworld before forming these sorts of definite opinions about it.
The reason there are fewer powerfully magical bastard swords IG isn't because the DMs don't want you to use them, it's because they want the weaker weapons to be on the same level as them. You won't be looked down on or considered a min/maxer, but equally it should be viable for someone to use a dagger / spear or whatever and so they're more commonly magical to put them on the same footing as the more powerful weapons!
There are some very powerful bastard swords that randomly drop in a few places on efu. The issue is just that, they are random, so it is much more likely that someone else will happen across it before you. That's why the marketplace forum is a great way to advertise your own search.
When you have a weapon that is 1d10 your average is 5.5. If you have a longsword the average is 4.5. To account for this some long swords have a +1 bonus damage, and fewer short swords have a +2 bonus damage (still rare). This doesn't mean you wont eventually find something useful, however a two week old character is actually a rather short time to be playing a single PC.
Same with full plate, you'll be much more likely to find a magical cool half plate then full plate. That is because full plate itself -is- the reward. 9 total ac rather then 8.
Joining factions tends to help in this regard, as they are expressed as wealthy, influential, and powerful groups who will reward you for representing them correctly. Even the Houses Aberdenn and Caermyn tend to pull in tight nit groups of characters that look out for each other. Mostly however, DM loot is a rare treat that is rewarded for being at the right place at the right time or for going above and beyond the typical character. In other words, you'll eventually run across one of these events, so the longer a character has been alive the more chances they have to accumulate loot which commemorates their deeds.
Honestly loot is cool, but it is nothing compared to the RP stories. Lots of our veteran players have almost no inclination for questing anymore, they've found other ways to keep themselves entertained. ( not saying that quests don't happen, just that they are a secondary event if that )
Just going to contribute my two cents regarding a few of the issues brought up in this thread:
1) DM attention. It's not uncommon at all for people to go through a phase where they believe the DM team isn't giving their character the recognition he or she deserves. Truth be told, I had the same feeling several times as a player, but looking back I can see how my opinion was influenced by a limited perspective. This server has a greater number of active players than I ever imagined when I was just playing PCs, and it takes longer than I suspected to set up anything beyond a very simple NPC encounter. Add to that the fact that DMs have an avatar that can only be in one place at a time (despite the ability to teleport around and generally move much faster than PCs) and it's not at all unlikely for them to miss any given PCs moments of stellar roleplaying. If they're online for two to three hours setting up an event that will probably only directly affect a quarter of the online characters, there's a pretty low potential for any given character to receive attention. If they're not specifically setting something up, chances are they will be jumping around the server observing groups of PCs, looking for something to happen that they can build upon. Speaking from experience, chances are very high that during this time, somebody will need help of some variety that is not story-related, but which would be massively inconvenient to them and detrimental to their game experience if unanswered. There is nothing wrong with this, of course! It's part of the DM team's job to make sure that things go smoothly for our fellow storytellers on the player side. It's just another factor that contributes to it frequently seeming as though there's a disparity between a given player's DM interaction and the server's in general.
I've been inactive on the DM client for a few months, but prior to that there were many PCs I thoroughly enjoyed watching for whom I never ran an event or created loot. If you're not receiving loot, events, NPC admiration (or hate), or private tell kudos from DMs, it does NOT mean you're doing something wrong, or that DMs don't enjoy the story you're telling/helping to drive. It might just mean we think things are going along quite well without our meddling.
2. Combat difficulty. This is a tricky one, because all sorts play here, and you're right that the difficulty of certain areas limits the ability of some players to play characters of a certain type (for example, the ineffable badass). As somebody who was notoriously atrocious at NWN combat, I can definitely feel the pain of those who feel like they're running very fast at a brick wall when it comes to PVP or the higher-end quests. All I can say is to persevere. Take character deaths in stride, because they're bound to happen, especially at higher levels. Other roleplaying games have experience caps that are overtly defined, EfU has the difficulty ramp. The purpose, of course, is to keep story and character central to the EfU experience. Chasing level progression forever would be fairly boring without a more dynamic combat system than NWN offers. One of the ways NWN combat is made exciting is PVP, another is the "long odds" scenario some quests are designed to put players in. Both are essential to a story-driven server, as every story needs conflict, and direct physical violence is a common enough manifestation of it. However, it is far from the only possible manifestation, and some of the best conflicts have simmered for weeks without even a blow exchanged. Occasionally, conflicts are even settled without resorting to rolling the dice of combat. The fact that eventually every PC on EfU runs into an insurmountable challenge might seem like an imposed limit, but actually opens doors for a wider variety of stories.
3. Success. On EfU, success means something entirely different than it means on other servers, and in other games. There's no predefined list of achievements to unlock (thankfully), so the best course is to define your own goals on a per-character basis. These can be as banal or as unattainable as you like. A few of my own goals in the past have been:
*Earn a promotion in a faction.
*Recruit at least ten people to support my trading company.
*Get a significant bounty on my head.
*Defeat ever quest and create a sweet "action pose" collage of screenshots.
*Reach lvl 9.
*Commit spectacular public suicide via alchemy.
*Discover the secrets surrounding a particular prominent NPC.
*Commit destruction on a grand enough scale that toolset modification of an area is required.
*Bring about the downfall of a PC enemy without them ever knowing it was me.
*Bring about the downfall of a PC enemy by smearing them in the dirt.
*Bring about the downfall of my own PC by pissing off enough people that I can't possibly survive their wrath.
*Get my lore stat to 50.
*Earn a reputation as a "loose cannon" to the point that only other insane people or people confident enough in their own abilities would even consider including me in their dealings.
*Donate more than 50,000 gold to charity.
*Put myself in a situation where I get to swear revenge upon somebody, then later, enact said revenge.
Not all of those goals were accomplished. Probably not even half of them, but having them definitely made my experience on EfU more fun, and allowed me to know success when I achieved it. Some of them were mechanical, some were story-related, some were just off the wall.
In the end, it's about having fun more than anything, and the best advice I can give to anyone is to do what's fun for you.
Regarding weapons, if you invest a feat in order to be able to use better weapons, you would think those weapons should be, you know... better.
Quote from: BASTARD!;284826This, to me, is an issue. Why do I have to feel like a guilty min/maxer because I use a BASTARD! sword? I love hand and a half swords. It is such an ideal weapon in my mind, and a common one used throughout the ages by all sorts of badasses.
As far as I can tell I have to waste a feat in order to get 2 more points of damage. Is that really such a big deal? I think an enchanted longsword or spear with any type of elemental damage and enhanced crit quickly becomes a better tool on a server like this.
If I could wield my bastard sword with two-hands I would. I don't use it to couple it with a tower shield for max dmg/ac. If I could actually apply 2h str dmg I would throw my shield into the garbage. I guess these are just the prices I pay for making him with no knowledge of the server weaponry.
I once played a character who fought with a torch (and fist). Eventually, I was rewarded with a mechanical torch that was a mace with the fire effect. Persist and you may very well earn a flavorful weapon or item!
Hey man as to death spells! Vilindilieth got phantasmal killer spammed he was held and had five phantasmal killers thrown at him before he succumbed. Its not that bad really! Vilin has one only one speical loot item and thats because he participated in a DM event where Death was at every corner for him. Another time i got DM xp a nice amount was because i faced a situation where permadeath was quite likely! I was at the mercy of multiple people who could have killed me. Because i RPed it right though and "im sure they were being merciful" i survived. Its not easy and yeah the game may be slow at times, but the DM's can't do everything. When i sit in the conclave when things are slow for vilin I personally hope that not a DM will make an event but a player will come along to RP with, despite the lack of rewards. But its not the loot i care about, its the fun of RP! And as to joining a faction like others said i highly recommend it! Before i was in a faction yeah conflict was less and I had better chances for survival but trust me RP is 10x better!
I think most points have been covered here already regarding the difficulty of that specific quest, and that story, character and goals should be prioritised over loot in order to enjoy EfU.
What I do find problematic in these discussions though is those sections of our community who seem to think that everyone should be able to achieve the mastery of NWN mechanics that is required to survive EfU / PvP. This is simply just not possible for everyone.
For me, its a bit like playing pool: I can -see- the shot I should take to sink the next ball, I understand the physics involved, I just can't physically execute it. Translate that to NWN: I know what potions/spells would help me theoretically, but when push comes to shove I am never clear-headed enough to remember to hit those quick slots when I have the chance or I'm simply too slow. Add a little lag and its already over. This is fine by me, and I enjoy this game - I just want those who are mechanically proficient to realise that not everyone is able to achieve it!
EFU caters to all concepts. Yes, it -is- easier to play a mechanically powerful concept. But I've played mechanically deficient ones before.
You don't need to be a badass with a greataxe to succeed.
Everytime I see a bastard sword I cringe on the inside and swallow all the pennies in my piggy bank like a poor and starving pig.
Quote from: noobliette;284886I think most points have been covered here already regarding the difficulty of that specific quest, and that story, character and goals should be prioritised over loot in order to enjoy EfU.
What I do find problematic in these discussions though is those sections of our community who seem to think that everyone should be able to achieve the mastery of NWN mechanics that is required to survive EfU / PvP. This is simply just not possible for everyone.
For me, its a bit like playing pool: I can -see- the shot I should take to sink the next ball, I understand the physics involved, I just can't physically execute it. Translate that to NWN: I know what potions/spells would help me theoretically, but when push comes to shove I am never clear-headed enough to remember to hit those quick slots when I have the chance or I'm simply too slow. Add a little lag and its already over. This is fine by me, and I enjoy this game - I just want those who are mechanically proficient to realise that not everyone is able to achieve it!
I disagree. This is little more than a self-fulfilling defeatist mentality.
What you say is of course true in the beginning, but there isn't some invisible wall only certain people are destined to run into while others progress.
When I was new to EFU and NWN in general I lost
every fight I was in. I went through alot of characters. Yet over time, and because I never stopped embracing conflict (because it was tense, fun, immersive), I learnt both the mechanical knowledge and the ability to apply it with increasing confidence in the chaos and adrenaline of the PvP context.
You say you know the mechanics, but you will never be competent in PvP (and by extension, lots of RP situations) or hectic PvE because you hesitate when it matters -- is that because phantom gods of NWN have decreed you will suffer defeat in fights or because you don't
yet have the experience needed to prosper in them?
I think you should eschew being superstitious and instead be realistic about the matter; you don't fail because you're predestined to fail, you fail because you don't possess the experience required not to.
All you need to do is practice more, it is that simple. I don't mean go and gank people or spend hours training on some arena server. Simply make characters that rock the boat or help other characters rock the boat and not only will you have a
better time on EFU, you'll eventually master the game.
Quote from: Caddies;284897I disagree. This is little more than a self-fulfilling defeatist mentality.
What you say is of course true in the beginning, but there isn't some invisible wall only certain people are destined to run into while others progress.
When I was new to EFU and NWN in general I lost every fight I was in. I went through alot of characters. Yet over time, and because I never stopped embracing conflict (because it was tense, fun, immersive), I learnt both the mechanical knowledge and the ability to apply it with increasing confidence in the chaos and adrenaline of the PvP context.
You say you know the mechanics, but you will never be competent in PvP (and by extension, lots of RP situations) or hectic PvE because you hesitate when it matters -- is that because phantom gods of NWN have decreed you will suffer defeat in fights or because you don't yet have the experience needed to prosper in them?
I think you should eschew being superstitious and instead be realistic about the matter; you don't fail because you're predestined to fail, you fail because you don't possess the experience required not to.
All you need to do is practice more, it is that simple. I don't mean go and gank people or spend hours training on some arena server. Simply make characters that rock the boat or help other characters rock the boat and not only will you have a better time on EFU, you'll eventually master the game.
I respectfully disagree. I've been playing some form of RPGs for 20 years. 15 of that console, 5 on PC (of which the majority of that has been EfU). Frankly, I suck mechanically. This is not defeatist, it is simple truth. I've never been spectacular at anything that requires good hand-eye coordination (and anything that requires split-second eye-hand coordination I fail miserably and end up flaring up my CTS). And almost all console games require that. While PC games don't all require eye-hand coordination, there is a level of mechanical skill that some people achieve that other people never will.
There's also the ability to see a strategy that some people inherently have and others do not. There's the sheer "battle twitch" instinct, that while a small portion of that can perhaps be learned, it is still an instinctual thing that some people have and some don't.
That being said, I still enjoy the games, and in particular EfU. Yes, I get frustrated. Yes, I at times frustrate the hell out of my party. But I still come back for more. Why? Because IMO, EfU offers more than just simple mechanical gaming. There's the scripted quests, there's the DM quests, there's the environment, there's the RP, and there's the players. It's all combined to make a place that is unique.
One of the things that helped lessen my frustration over the years was to quit comparing notes, so to speak. There will always be someone out there that has more "stuff" than I have. And by the same token, there will always be someone who has less stuff. I enjoy the game for what it is and for the entertainment it can provide me.
If there's someone you want to compete against, compete against yourself. Find goals that stretch your abilities a bit, and you'll learn and grow. And yes, you will get better mechanically. You may or may not ever be a mechanical superstar. That's okay. Stretch your RP abilities, stretch your mechanical abilities, stretch your "fear factor" abilities, stretch your concept abilities. Those sorts of things get noticed too.
Most of all ... make it enjoyable for you.
It's not so much that people can't be competent, but more so that there are usually other people that are better (in terms of PVP). People will have better reflexes, faster "battle twitch" or shorter reaction times as said above, calmer nerves, and so on. Yes, practice will help, but to say that with practice everyone can be on the same level is silly.
It's like a sport; you can say that anyone can learn to play basketball, but who is going to be able to hold Kobe Bryant one-on-one? EfU has pros that have mastered this game, and to say that everyone can, or should, be on that level is just not realistic, nor conducive to what's going on here IMHO.
Mechanics are one thing, common sense and logic is another.
Figure out the "why" of things and everything soon falls into place.
Heading down dead orc trail? Why is it called that? Because orcs are there!
Lots of spellcasting nearby but youc an't see who it is? INVIS GANK! WARD UP!
Strange, glowing glyphs on the floor? No, it isn't just there because it looks cool, shit might blow up if you step on it.
Play smart, and learn your mechanics, and you'll be a pro. Keeping cool in a fight can be tough, though..
I think I'll have to agree with Caddies on the fact that there is a pretty substantial amount of NWN mechanics that can be taught and learned, and that any insistence otherwise feels more like defeatist attitude than an inability to learn. Back when I first started EfU, I was baffled by the thought that IE was a shitty feat and I could be expected to hit ~30 AC without having to use it. But now I charge into the front of the group at low levels with enough confidence in my mechanical knowledge that I feel that save for a pretty big mistake (or an intentional roleplay one), I can hold my own at the whim of the RNG.
Point being, ask around. People are willing to help. Dropping a line like "I want to make x class that doesn't mechanically suck, can someone give me the low down?" is easy and will get you a few responses from knowledgeable people willing to help.
Quote from: shadesofblack;284902It's not so much that people can't be competent, but more so that there are usually other people that are better (in terms of PVP). People will have better reflexes, faster "battle twitch" or shorter reaction times as said above, calmer nerves, and so on. Yes, practice will help, but to say that with practice everyone can be on the same level is silly.
It's like a sport; you can say that anyone can learn to play basketball, but who is going to be able to hold Kobe Bryant one-on-one? EfU has pros that have mastered this game, and to say that everyone can, or should, be on that level is just not realistic, nor conducive to what's going on here IMHO.
Likening EFU to basketball is absurd.
PvPing on EFU requires two fingers on one hand. Literally.
The reflexes, intuitions and strategems are all
learned and aren't tied to genetics or physical capabilities at all unless you're blind or semi-paralyzed in both hands.
Obviously I am not comparing the physical aspect of sports to NWN. However the game is very nuanced and each person will have a certain peak of capability as with any game, as evidenced by players who've played for a long time yet still have varying skill levels. This is way off-topic by now though, sorry.
Having played NWN for at least 8 years, including several on EfU, I think I've had enough experience to know that I'm not gonna get much better considering my casual play style. It's not to say that I couldn't get better if I worked really hard at it, its that I know I won't (the same with my ability to play pool really!).
To assume that people will treat their gaming like a career and "work at it" I think is slightly too high an expectation.
As I said, I enjoy EfU as it is. I just don't think everyone should be expected to reach the same level of PvP and frenetic PvE mechanical capabilities as some of our more committed and/or talented players.
The expectation is whatever you set for yourself. No one really expects anything from other players except that they obey the rules. Beyond that they don't care how skilled someone else is.
Some people will play the game casually, hopping on for events, doing some quest, and perhaps joining a faction. They don't work at it, they just play, and odds are they aren't even that great at it, but who cares?
Others play a bit more seriously, and though it's still just a game of course, they go out and try to shake things up. They don't hop on for events, they make the events, they change, make and destroy factions, and so on and so forth. They work at it. Someone who makes a thread like this wants to work at it, wants to get better.
So work at it, everyone has to just endure through the "noob" phase until they get comfortable with things. In a few months/years, you'll look back at all the difficult situations you were in that were stressful at the time, and probably laugh.. I know I do at least. :P
Have a plan. Most characters, or at least mine, have some secret weapon, some ace in the hole, something they can pull out when absolutely necessary to turn the tide of battle. If you don't have a plan, run like hell. If you can't run... good luck.
Drink potions fight
If you see you are "injured" run
Do what you think your character would do, the speed of things make it more tasking but you can compensate by being more liberal with your consumables. You can guesstimate hits before you die... again if you are injured, you might die.
as noobliette quite rightly said, it's all about the playstyle. If you've played EfU for 15 years and still aren't good, that's probably because you're not throwing yourself into situations that require you to be good! It's a steep and harsh learning curve but all it takes is leaping into it and each character that dies because you messed up in PvP you initiated will make you more likely to win the next one!
Just remember it's a game and it's no biggy if you die trying, just take from the experience and try to make things exciting for everyone again and eventually somewhere down the line you'll have a PC people remember with the same nostalgic fondness as Orgeribbit or Ortred.
Also if you've played efu for 15 years, you're either not there in the head of your have access to time travel of some sort.
stfu
I find it interesting that on one hand this thread has opened up some potentially good dialogue, but on the other we're hearing the same thing we've heard a million times.
I also find it interesting that the people that say mechanical skills are "easy to learn" are the people that are mechanically superior anyway. Not everyone is going to be a superstar. Period. Not everyone is game incline. And not everyone has a million hours (yes, an exaggeration) to spend IG trying to achieve such. To be flat out dismissive or say "you're just not trying hard enough" is in it's own way very discouraging to those that aren't at your level. Being told that over and over, sooner or later you're just going to give up.
To quote myself:
QuoteIf there's someone you want to compete against, compete against yourself. Find goals that stretch your abilities a bit, and you'll learn and grow. And yes, you will get better mechanically. You may or may not ever be a mechanical superstar. That's okay. Stretch your RP abilities, stretch your mechanical abilities, stretch your "fear factor" abilities, stretch your concept abilities. Those sorts of things get noticed too.
Most of all ... make it enjoyable for you.
That last line is the most important, really.
(15 years playing EfU? that's a neat trick)
I am amused by this sense of extremes in the NWN mechanical aptitude debate!
It's like the idea is being connoted on one side of the argument that EVERYONE can be a Naga or a Caddies and on the other side that some people will never be able to figure out why a blur potion is useful.
While not everyone will be insane-o good at NWN, even after 15 years ( :) ), just like not everyone who picks up a pool cue or a basketball is going to be the next Black Widow or M. Jordan; everyone can work up to at least a moderate proficiency at NWN if they set their mind to do it.
Some people will improve more slowly and some people will get better quickly. Let's not mistake frustration with the learning curve and impatience at improvement with a blanket statement of "I'll NEVER GET BETTER".
[hide="Weird Personal Analogy"]I can't breakdance. I wish I could. Some days I'll be like, I should learn breakdancing. So I put on music and I try to teach myself a 6-step on the floor. After 15 minutes I give up and say to myself, "I'LL NEVER LEARN HOW TO BREAKDANCE."
And then I content myself to just dance on my feet and do all the fun moves I know that don't require me to put my hands on the ground.
Just because I'm impatient, get quickly frustrated, and then am content to settle for less doesn't mean that I can never learn how to breakdance. I'm simply giving up because before I give myself a real chance at learning.[/hide]
If you set your mind to it, you could improve at NWN mechanics to at least a level where you don't immediately die when some PvP genius simply looks in your direction.
If that's not what's important to you, that's fine to!
And EfU is not just about NWN mechanics and in every aspect of our server/community, EVERY ASPECT, you CAN improve if you wish to. It just takes time and patience.
Again I would like to thank everyone for their input. More-so on the roleplay end of things then elsewhere..
This thread was not a complaint about game mechanics, or even difficulty. I do not have trouble playing NWN. It is an old game and for the most part I have a decent handle on staying alive..except for in those extreme cases where something crazy happens like an unlucky crit (DM interaction and PVP excluded).
My real complaint was against the things I can not control so much like being stunned/knockeddown/entangled/blinded etcetc. Especially having done the quest for the FIRST time. I was blindsided, and like I have said these woes diminished when I was told by several people how hard this quest is.
The best thing to come of this is the realization of why we roleplay in the first place. It really is about the story and embracing whatever concept you have entirely. Not expecting to get things, but striving to make your character better because it pushes you along your own path as well as helping to mold the journeys of others. I think on a server like this, and from what people have said, that good things will come if you stay true to an idea and express it in a way that is interesting or involving.
Thanks again.
I for one feel that JaydeMoon's Weird Personal Analogy should be documented and uploaded to YouTube so that we can all learn something about personal growth.
QuoteI also find it interesting that the people that say mechanical skills are "easy to learn" are the people that are mechanically superior anyway. Not everyone is going to be a superstar. Period. Not everyone is game incline. And not everyone has a million hours (yes, an exaggeration) to spend IG trying to achieve such. To be flat out dismissive or say "you're just not trying hard enough" is in it's own way very discouraging to those that aren't at your level. Being told that over and over, sooner or later you're just going to give up.
Calm down.
I merely said that getting experience in PvP situations makes one progressively more competent and confident in them, and that its a better alternative than sticking your head in the sand. It's sort of amusing how defensive you're getting over what was merely some helpful advice.
QuoteI think on a server like this, and from what people have said, that good things will come if you stay true to an idea and express it in a way that is interesting or involving.
That's the essence of EFU, yes. If you keep it in mind at all times you'll have alot of fun here. Good luck.
I can agree with this, I think. I have the same problem: whenever there's a PvP fight I freeze and just flat-out suck. Part of it is sucking at PvP in general, but a much bigger part is frankly just me being a pussy and avoiding conflict.
If you can manage to embrace a mentality that thrives on conflict, and can remain with a good attitude even if you are defeated I think us wimps would get a lot more out of this cool server.
In the spirit of that, let us scared sissies stop dodging conflicts and charge head-long into trouble! At worst we'll be dead bodies that pave the path of a legendary hero and at best we'll emerge better players, learning something in the process that has eluded us for years!
Quote from: Caddies;285033Calm down.
I merely said that getting experience in PvP situations makes one progressively more competent and confident in them, and that its a better alternative than sticking your head in the sand. It's sort of amusing how defensive you're getting over what was merely some helpful advice.
o.O I'm quite calm. And not defensive. Merely pointing out how the same mantra we've heard a million times can be taken by other people. There's a big difference between being realistic about one's abilities and sticking your head in the sand. If you read my entire post, I did finish it off with pointing out that one does need to stretch their abilities.
Anyway, enough with the derailment :)
At it's essence, we've all pretty much said the same thing in various fashions. Play to have fun. Stretch yourself if you're unhappy with your abilities. But most of all ... have fun.
Quote from: BASTARD!;284998The best thing to come of this is the realization of why we roleplay in the first place. It really is about the story and embracing whatever concept you have entirely. Not expecting to get things, but striving to make your character better because it pushes you along your own path as well as helping to mold the journeys of others. I think on a server like this, and from what people have said, that good things will come if you stay true to an idea and express it in a way that is interesting or involving.
Thanks again.
This. <3
If you believe the book "Outliers", 10,000 hours put into any hobby will make you a master!
All literary commentary aside, EfU is an emotional rollercoaster for many players.
The euphoric highs that come with leveling, successfully defeating a powerful NPC, and overcoming a fierce PC rival are sharply contrasted by the agony of losing a hard earned level or perhaps the loss of a precious sword gained through perilous adventure. Most importantly, and as many have mentioned already, in the end you'll always have the story you've weaved into the ongoing narrative of Mistlocke's history.
Most of us wouldn't have it any other way, and I would encourage you to embrace this rollercoaster. Nothing that comes easy is exciting, or worthy a memory in my experience. Good luck with EfU, I hope you decide to stick around.
Quote from: Caddies;285033Calm down.
Lock this thread, says Morva.
You all should have seen I_O's PvP before he made a PC just to participate in conflict. He's the perfect before and after example. So I can guarantee that the method does work, it just takes a variable amount of time tailored to the person. I'd be an example too except that girls can't PvP as I'm often told, so anyone I crush is pure luck, and every loss is just my natural state of being.
Well said!
...but shouldn't you be making the other DMs sandwiches?
*runs away giggling*