I'm putting this in bug reports instead of suggestions because I assume that wizards with certain themes having access to permanent true seeing through the application of a mere Lesser Planar Binding spell is assuredly an oversight.
An easy fix would be removing it from the L3 summons altogether. Then if it's deemed, for reasons I'll personally never understand, desirable for wizards to have access to summons with this particular ability, then perhaps it can be added to much higher level summons instead.
Do they have True Seeing, or is it simply Blindsight? One is more powerful than the other after all.
As blindsight on certain summoned creatures has been a well-established feature of EFU for many years now, I think that this would be more appropriate in the suggestions forum.
Blindsight is more powerful on EfU. Though it does not see through sanctuary, it does see around walls, I believe. True Seeing does not see around walls.
These summons have blindsight, I believe so that they cannot spot scrying mages. If possible, having Planar Binding summon a unique version of each summon theme rather than just a basic Level 3 would be pretty awesome, and you could just not add blindsight for most of them (something like oozes or plants should always have blindsight).
Blindsight, 60 feet (which is on the monsters that have the feat) is only slightly less than the AOE of a Colossal spell effect. A human character on your screen represents 2 meters, or 6.6 feet.That means that the range of this blindsight is slightly greater than the distance of 9 human character models stacked on top of one another. I do not find that to be very limited myself.
Summoning themes should be interesting and unique, not completely nullify one of the few weaknesses a Wizard might suffer on EFU. C/C is already greatly buffed with divination focus for example, and I do not think that any Wizard needs to have readily available 24 hour duration summons that detect stealth.
In fact, I recall the Ooze theme having these things removed, and furthermore the (much less effective) polymorph self spell having it removed because it was deemed overpowered. I don't believe that already powerful summons require this in any form.
For the sake of clarity, all summons of the ooze theme still have blindsight.
You'll find that powerful summoning themes with blindsight, including the ooze theme, which feature blindsight are not generally obtainable as permanent summoning themes without a DM's conscious intervention in granting them.
Quote from: Johannes;287433As blindsight on certain summoned creatures has been a well-established feature of EFU for many years now, I think that this would be more appropriate in the suggestions forum.
Yes, but summoning a level three summon for 24 hours with planar binding hasn't been around for years. I'm against wizards (stealthed PCs being their only real weakness) having permanent access to automatic stealth detection, and as a DM, I assumed you would be too given this is a glaring balance concern (and thus why I thought it was a bug).
I'm grateful that you've raised this for discussion, Caddies. It is clear that it is a subject that you believe in very passionately, and I definitely take that seriously. I am eager to facilitate an animated and productive discussion on the subject, but I hope that you will consider toning back the counter-productively angry tone of your posts which is sabotaging your case.
While we're on the subject, somewhat off-topic, Greater Syndrasil Roots do not have blindsight, while lesser roots do. The roots (along with Illusory Doom Knights) also have knockdown and improved knockdown, but only use the former.
Perhaps intentional for balance reasons, but while on the subject, figured I'd mention it.
Quote from: Johannes;287441I'm grateful that you've raised this for discussion, Caddies. It is clear that it is a subject that you believe in very passionately, and I definitely take that seriously. I am eager to facilitate an animated and productive discussion on the subject, but I hope that you will consider toning back the counter-productively angry tone of your posts which is sabotaging your case.
Haven't got the time/interest to be smarmy, I'll stick with blunt.
It is something that should be looked at -- however, you overestimate how good it is. Unless the player's running around with a pack of level 3-4-5 summons and everyone hostile they can still be ambushed just by the practical limitations of hostiling at the right time. While this may seem ooc, the summons assuredly are not told by the wizard to go on rampage mode and crush everything that is hiding around them ally or otherwise.
Quote from: Gippy;287454It is something that should be looked at -- however, you overestimate how good it is. Unless the player's running around with a pack of level 3-4-5 summons and everyone hostile they can still be ambushed just by the practical limitations of hostiling at the right time. While this may seem ooc, the summons assuredly are not told by the wizard to go on rampage mode and crush everything that is hiding around them ally or otherwise.
Frequent use of /c hostile all as a wizard will remedy this very easily.
Quote from: Gippy;287454It is something that should be looked at -- however, you overestimate how good it is. Unless the player's running around with a pack of level 3-4-5 summons and everyone hostile they can still be ambushed just by the practical limitations of hostiling at the right time. While this may seem ooc, the summons assuredly are not told by the wizard to go on rampage mode and crush everything that is hiding around them ally or otherwise.
Summons aren't the crux of the issue, its having them 24/7 through lesser planar binding. Wizards with permanent stealth auto-detection are completely unbalanced.
The mainstream availability of blindsight on stable summons is definitely a concern, and this is being removed from the mainstream light and plant themes which feature it.
It has also been removed from Hook Horror Hive Defenders and their hatchlings, for whom the blindsight feat is thematically unusual.
Other themes with blindsight on them are handed out as DM loot, and are available as an incentive for proactivity (although the ooze theme has historically been granted via application. I think that it's fair to discuss revising this policy). The DM loot that any individual PC is deemed to merit, including non-mainstream summoning themes, does not come into any general discussions about balance.
If there are further issues with mainstream summoning themes with blindsight, we would appreciate players bringing them up.
I'm in agreement with Caddies that giving wizards what amounts to permanent vision through stealth is a bit unfair to those stealth classes who should theoretically excel against wizards.
Thematically however, magic is about surmounting physical limitation via magic. If a wizard survives long enough and overcomes enough hardship to achieve such DM loot, don't they have a right to the benefits? Isn't it also a bit classless to complain about it on the forums because you failed to stealth gank someone?
This should probably go to DM discussion or a private DM Q/A between Caddies and the DM team so peanut gallery patrons like myself can't sit in the cheap seats and hoot like drunken monkeys.
This is a valid topic for discussion, and all players are welcome to contribute.
A "stealth gank" is really the only way to defeat a wizard, as a prepared wizard should by all means win unless he's against insurmountable odds.
The classic triangle of wizard beats fighter beats rogue beats wizard isn't a bad thing!
Isn't there always the classic haste run up and spam knockdown till his dead with 3-6 of your friends?
No because concealment and summons.
See invis defeats concealment doesn't it? Dispel removes buffs, Dismissal removes summons.
See invisibility does not negate concealment effects.
No. See Invis does not counter concealment.
Quote from: Johannes;287461The mainstream availability of blindsight on stable summons is definitely a concern, and this is being removed from the mainstream light and plant themes which feature it.
It has also been removed from Hook Horror Hive Defenders and their hatchlings, for whom the blindsight feat is thematically unusual.
Other themes with blindsight on them are handed out as DM loot, and are available as an incentive for proactivity (although the ooze theme has historically been granted via application. I think that it's fair to discuss revising this policy). The DM loot that any individual PC is deemed to merit, including non-mainstream summoning themes, does not come into any general discussions about balance.
If there are further issues with mainstream summoning themes with blindsight, we would appreciate players bringing them up.
You're addressing issues I didn't bring up, either out of confusion about the original point or as a method of subterfuge.
The specific issue, the -actual- (and obvious) source of the post, is
wizards having permanent autodetection of stealth through the use of Lesser Planar Binding, even with DM loot. This is an undeniable balance problem which needs a quick fix, and has many easy solutions.
Assuming that balance concerns -even those which stem from DM-administered perks to specific players- aren't inherently communal in nature, it's obvious that the issue wasn't being discussed internally, and given I received no reply in IRC PMs, what other recourse is available?
I will be sure to make myself available on IRC around midday European time tomorrow if you want to discuss the issue; I for one would be interested to identify the reason for your hesitations.
What about dismissals and dispels?
There's plenty of IC methods to combat the issue: Dispel, Dismissal, Turn Undead (if clerics can Turn Outsiders, too, generally via the right Domains), use summons or friends to draw away said mage's auto-attacking summons before stealth-ganking, etc.
Can no one keep a legitimate suggestion discussion civil?
What's the matter with you?
Agree or disagree, it's not a crazy thing to suggest.
Maybe focus on what you think would be best for EFU, rather than attacking people.
Quote from: Sea_and_Stars;287592Negh. Sounds to me like Caddies just wants to be able to gank the way he wants, instead of making an -IN CHARACTER- effort to win via other methods than stealth-gank. Honestly? I'd say he doesn't care about other solutions because he's OOCly focused on having his own way.
However, if I'm wrong, then I apologize, and there's plenty of IC methods to combat the issue: Dispel, Dismissal, Turn Undead (if clerics can Turn Outsiders, too, generally via the right Domains), use summons or friends to draw away said mage's auto-attacking summons before stealth-ganking, etc.
I find this discussion a healthy criticism and review of mechanics that may or may not be balanced. However, assumptions of intentions based on nothing may turn this away from something good, for all players, to something hurtful, and direct attention from the main topic.
I have nothing to add to the topic on hand, but as one player - who finds this discourse helpful and interesting - to another, please keep it impersonal and constructive. The last thing we need is venom and ad hominem spoiling an otherwise fine discussion.
Ah, you're right. I'd brought over an IRC discussion on it into the forums. I'll edit the above post for nicety's sake.
Sorry about that, Caddies.
I've already been lectured to in the thread about not having any class in bringing this issue up, because it was assumed I failed to stealthgank someone despite not playing in months. I'm sure whatever conclusions cooked up in IRC by the EFU airmchair general staff are equally as amusing. No need to apologize!
Back onto topic, the point you seem to miss Sea and Stars, is that all of those methods you listed (Dispel, Dismissal, etc.) alert the wizard, elminating absolute intiative (usually required to kill a high level wizard in the hands of a good player), and none of them can be done without breaking stealth. The balance issue at hand, I think, is that wizards with this perk go from being the hardest class to kill to being literally ungankable - a fundamental balance concern, in my opinion.
I also find it surprising when this issues are addressed in language that is often aggressive or needlessly adversarial.
Blindsight is a very powerful feat, and when it comes to permanent summons I agree it can be problematic. Theoretically though, it is most often used in EfU for what in PnP would be blindsight granted through hearing and sensing vibrations.
As a productive suggestion, perhaps it would make sense for the lower-level summons of these themes to have a very high boost to Listen rather than Blindsight? I tend to think that a Rogue with a very high Move Silently should be able to tread so lightly so as not to cause much of a tremor on the ground, if at all. This also works in the case of someone under invisibility, since the engine detects them based on Listen skill (and it is only us as players that roleplay not knowing exactly the location of the noise). I am not certain as to the radius at which Listen detection of invisibility functions though, so the idea may fall down there.
Higher level summons of these themes should continue to have Blindsight, whether they are permanent summons or not IMO.
Hear, hear, Caddies.
The issues mentioned in this thread are indeed a balance problem at a fundamental level, eliminating a fundamental weakness of a very powerful class, making it ridiculously overpowered.
This would be akin to giving a Fighter a 1/day ability that activates an obscene amount of SR for 24 hrs, or a Rogue a 1/day ability that activates Immunity - Knockdown and Physical Immunity to a ridiculous degree. Neither of these would happen in EFU. Just because the Blindsight feat is more subtle, does not make it any less unbalancing.
It needs to be addressed, and not glossed over, nor the point hijacked, IMO. Sooner is better.
Caddies has fully described the issues at hand, and I have fully detailed the exact mechanics behind the npc feat "Blindisght". While Johannes claimed it to be limited, I believe that I properly explained how it is not limited at all due to being slightly over 9 human character models in length (or a meteor swarm for further example, covering most of the viewable screen).
Johannes has stated that he will be removing these feats from the broken themes (as they were removed from the polymorph self spell and BAT FAMILIAR in more recent times), and I don't believe any further discussion is really needed. If the three people to ever utilize this theme actually needed this massive advantage then I feel sorry for them, yet I think that deep down they know it was not needed and was blatantly over powered. (Yes, I'm talking about the hook hive defenders and withering masses, oddly the "withering mass" or whatever it is has been cleverly avoided in your "nerf" of thing and instantly utilized since, even though it is just as broken as the rest of the mentioned things)
I can only hope that the -right- decision is made and that such insane, absurd benefits are not allowed to continue, no matter who is wielding the theme at the current moment. I think Wizards have been buffed enough in other means to secure their prominence in the "power tier", but I do not think that this -shit- needs to remain in play to compensate for mediocre play. That's all.
Please be respectful on the forums.
Being rude over the internet doesn't make anyone a tough guy.
Unless you're me.
If the issue is 24 hour summons via blindsight on lvl 3 summons, why not just remove blindsight from the lvl 3's and lower but keep it on lvl 4 or on lvl 5.
Quote from: Gotham;287618If the issue is 24 hour summons via blindsight on lvl 3 summons, why not just remove blindsight from the lvl 3's and lower but keep it on lvl 4 or on lvl 5.
That's exactly what I suggested in the first post. :rolleyes:
There are ways to boost summon levels that caddies is not aware of. That solution of course, would not be satisfactory for him in the end.
Keep arguing guys!
There is little more to argue. Please remove the blindsight feat from any summon that could ever become permanent via lesser planar binding / Planar Binding / whatever else.
Unless you plan on giving my ranger and druid familiars tremor sense or dispel magic on hit (while I accept the massive XP loss for losing them), I don't see why wizards should have this option as the most prominent dominating class in a low level server.
As much as it sucks having creatures in the game that can auto detect stealth, they're not exactly very common. I'm currently playing a stealth based character and i always make sure to prepare for the possibility that i will encounter said creatures, there are deffinately ways around it.
There are no default themes that have true seeing, all of which must be app'd or earned IG. Also as far as i know, the Ooze theme for example has had tremor sense or whatever you call it since forever. Although this is clearly aimed at once particular PC, the summon in question i would expect to have similar propeties to an Ooze or other creatures that have similar abilities i.e. Assassin Vines.
Sure it sucks, but its not like everyones is running around with these powerful summons and there are deffinately ways to counteract it.
(I may not understand the little details that distinguish between blindsight/tremor sense/true seeing, but it seems perfectly acceptable for the summon in quesiton ot have the same sense as a higher level Ooze, IMO)
Oh and as Gippy said, there are certainly items IG that can boost your summoning ability, so for example with lesser planner binding you may be able to have a permanent higher tier summon other then the default level 3.
OWN, I am sure you do prepare for being seen while playing your stealth PC buddy. I'd just like to point out that has nothing to do with the specific suggestion at all though - and nor does anything else you said.
I'm told Johannes has fixed the lesser planar binding / blindsight issue now. Thanks Johannes!
The summons really aren't that powerful VP. I do hope it means now that no summons are given true seeing/blindsight? As to be honest a rogue is only useful against a mage to begin with.
More summons still have this feat (among amazing other abilities, 16AB, intelligence drain on hit, lots of HP, damage reduction, etc) Why can't this be fixed when it is blatantly overpowering for Wizards to have?
How is it even remotely feasible for them to have permanent duration see invisibility between rests (easily accomplished without even having the feats that DOUBLE it), and also have permanent creatures that detect stealth? (and most of them with very fast movement speed!) Withering Black Mass, Intellect Devourer, and probably more. Furthermore, they have 3 attacks / round.
I think Summoned Mountain Cat has this - or very, very good hearing skills. Attacked me when invisible and far away from it.
having explored this theme myself i agree that some of these summons are extremely over powered for their spell level. I don't want to post any spoilers but i would suggest that they are reviewed.
**although the true seeing i don't agree is overpowered, people are just making assumptions about the level/power of the summon
The summons described are level V and VI, and are about as powerful as they need to be.
After looking at it closer i retract my statement, its a powerful theme for sure. Deffinately beatable though.
Some adjustments will be made.