I only caught the tail end of the initial event, but I’ll resume it here. A group of PCs with devouts attacked a group of PCs harboring a demonspawn. Both groups had very few interactions together. They had certainly heard OF each other, but not roleplay a great deal together before. You could say they had little history, but reasons for the initiation of a battle were certainly there... What occurred afterward, however, was in my mind, a bit premature in a story development.
PCs from one group attempted to summon a demon to sacrifice all the PCs from the other group. One of my colleagues decided, for the sake of encouraging players, to have a demon take attention to their call, and come forth. A few players were given to the demon. Thankfully, these players were seemingly fine with this as they sent me PMs stating they enjoyed the ending and were planning to sacrifice themselves in the Targan arena anyway. The rest were sent back to the village with their remaining possessionsâ€"the few that remained from the loot banquet of the victorious party.
Let me be perfectly clear. Subduing someone does not entitle you to his life/belongings, only the story entitles you to that. What I saw developing from this event was an Arena of Team Red vs. Team blue. Escalation of PvP with 3-4 hours of battle/run and back FOR about 15 minutes of roleplay in-between. The ratio is telling...
“They killed 2 of ours? We’ll kill FOUR of theirs! That will teach them.â€
“They killed four of ours? We’ll kill ALL of them!â€
“OH, and BURN the bodies. Mash their head in little pieces. That way resurrection is harder!†(The first time I heard this being spoken in IC terms. I cringed...)
And so on. The bystanders and people having absolutely no tie to the initial event being absorbed in this vortex of pointless pvp making for a somewhat mediocre scene where everyone is fighting, but no one is actually sure what for except for the sake to fight. That’s what an arena server is. EFU is not an arena server. EFU is a roleplay server. Chaotic events can certainly happen, and I’m fine if they do, but good PvP Karma shouldn’t be thrown out the window as it often happens in MOB situations. Generally, most people tend to be adequate toward pvp etiquette when few people are involved, but when it gets above a number and it becomes especially more ugly.
THAT said, I appreciated the moments of respite and the hostage negotiations.
This phenomenon is nothing new (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deindividuation). It propose that crowds bring a psychological state of decreased self-evaluation and decreased evaluation apprehension causing antinormative and disinhibited behavior (//%22http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinhibition%22). Deindividuation theory seeks to provide an explanation for a variety of antinormative collective behavior, such as violent crowds (//%22http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowd%22), lynch mobs (//%22http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching%22), etc. Deindividuation theory has also been applied to genocide (//%22http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide%22) and been posited as an explanation for antinormative behavior online and in computer-mediated communications.
This is very real, and you should ALWAYS try to stay true to your character despite being part of a mob.
Some character decisions were taken, and they were questionable. Not a lot of thought was given behind them, and I think it’s important to stay in-character and not let the OOC bloodlust of winning blind your character’s background/motives and turn you into a simplistic level 8 toon who’se part of team X.
- Should my character really help a demon?
- Should my character, who’se probably tired from the day, really rest to get spells and go back into fight?
- Should my character who shown no clear devotion to anything really devote to a CE ideal on a dime?
This is a recurrent topic; and I encourage those who are confused by my post to read further. Otherwise, just take a step back and think.
- http://www.escapefromundeath.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31349&highlight=blue
This one was a reminder.
- http://www.escapefromundeath.com/old_forums/viewtopic.php?t=32293&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 (//%22http://www.escapefromundeath.com/forums/../old_forums/viewtopic.php?t=32293&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0%22)
This one was not the first time the topic was approached, but a landmark debate nevertheless.
- http://www.escapefromundeath.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37271&highlight=death
This one by Iron Oligarch is particularly enjoyable to read. I encourage everyone to read at least the initial post.
I've had deaths that were deemed "acceptable and fine" by DMs where the interaction was nothing more than 15 minutes with no prior interactions. It's when I hear my characters death was legitimate by a DM under circumstances like this when PvP etiquette becomes something of a joke.
Many have had some unfortunate situations during the years. It happens, but even if it does and it's not looked upon favorably, it would be much more trouble and confusion to attempt and roll back something that has happened, so often what happens, happens. It does not mean that it's a boon or favor to the player that did it, and they get away with it.
These kind advices are given to hopefully prevent escalation into these situations in general. Much more preferable that way.
I think some people need to read this.
I'm glad to see this posted by a DM, I was getting ready to suggest we move our server from PW-Story, to PW-PvP.
I am under the impression that monster PCs can be killed on sight, without prior RP. From one of these groups I see a few humans (that have participated in PvP in the past, and the deaths of other PCs ) and a lot of monsters. To me, it is reasonable that one of these groups would be killed by pretty much any sane PC on the server, and they would receive little or no clemency and be shunned even by most NPCs unless said NPCs are cyrcists. I do not get how this is "Red vs Blue" when they are a faction of killers that have actually committed crimes. It is not unreasonable for anyone to try and cut their teeth by bringing them to justice...
I think they have made the choice to play evil PCs, murderers, and the insane. They made the choice to escalate things by attacking Mistlocke itself. I do not see how they should be protected any more than monsters... They have made choices which open themselves up for PvP.
Please, inform me if I'm wrong... sometimes the RP, of like demon loving monster summoners, dictates that a PC simply be executed.
In many ways I think PCs and NPCs -don't- care as much as they should about wildly evil shit that goes on, and it ends up making criminals end up being overt and boring rather than subtle and fearful for their lives, or overt and completely bad ass.
I can't recall that EFUs monsters, murderers and other evil PCs have a credit of killing other people wantonly when they meet for the first time (even when they probably should try to kill and subdue most of those weaker than them in order to pursue their own goals). They often refrain from it and choose their targets carefully in order to create rivalry situations which are deeper than that. I find it a bit odd that monster/evil PCs do not have the ability to act in their nature but the players of goodly PCs are required to destroy all who are against their belief in an instant - and they have "OOC" blessing to do this. PvP courtesy can be done with style and it is especially good at the beginning of character careers when none knows each other. I am sure the goodly PCs can find many reasons not to execute every new tiefling PC they meet as evil maniac PCs have found reasons not to rob blind or kill every weak looking portal rat who has just made it's way to Old Stones.
What comes to the event itself, I did find it extremely hysteric and very hard to do anything proper as it turned into massive PvP in an insant. I am not even sure why the battle between the two groups occured nor did I know the PCs on the other group but it happened to be so that I was with the evil PCs and my allies were under attack. I participated in the ritual as well, my character wishing to pay back to the attackers but I did not expect that it would lead to such many potential sacrifices (or deaths for that matter). What escalated later on in the Mistlocke and wilderness seemed to me like a big spin of vengeance.
QuoteI'm glad to see this posted by a DM, I was getting ready to suggest we move our server from PW-Story, to PW-PvP.
Completely agree. We've lost good players because they have felt that the server was more Red v's Blue, than trying to tell interesting conflict filled stories.
Honestly there are some points I actually disagree with in this post. Sometimes the Red, and Blue mentality is needed when your dealing with a team of demon summoners, and murderers. Anyone who aids in the profane act of sacrificing people to Demons should be well aware that what they are doing is evil, and should be given evil points.
Also saying "Lets burn the bodies so they can be prevented from getting raised?" That makes you cringe Mort? I can say with absolute certainty that when I want a pc of mine to actually murder someone they prevent a raise from occurring. Truly all throughout since the first days of EFU tons of murders were carried, and the results making it impossible to carry out a raise..........
In fact I would say your very own were rat assassin Squeelig feeding people you were paid to kill to a den of rats was a means of preventing a body from being raised.
As for a red vs blue arena server......There is paladins I cant think of a class that more encourages red vs blue then that class which is basically devoted to smiting, and thwarting characters because of an alignment. We have people killing eachother for things like faction affiliation. I would also say there is literally a red vs blue blood vs crips going on in real life. So in many ways warfare, and conflicts happen.
-The Doc
I think there're a lot of folk missing the point of the post. I'm not sure everyone's read it through. Read it again.
It's not that team based PvP is frowned upon, or out of the question.
It's the mob mentality that is dangerous. Basically, he's saying (and I think rightly!) that characters should always act in character, and not simply 'go along' with whatever is the zeitgeist.
Like... for instance. Your character is a TN mercenary. You see 6-7 people rush past you, and lots of people who are hostile fighting them. I know, and have seen it happen plenty of times, that they will suddenly jump in and attack - whichever side has set the server hostile. Have you seen this yourself? Or been a part of it? As a player, on this server, I am sure that in the fullness of time there WILL come a choice like this.
Another example. You are playing an LE Monk. Should you be going along on a hunt for some goblin in the sewers, just because a dozen or so people have organised it through a sending?
Mob mentality - it's one of the things that EfU has definitely taught me, with regards to life. That it is a real thing, and how difficult it is NOT to go along with the crowd, and to be your own man sometimes.
I know that I will always reward a PC a lot more that goes against the flow of the majority rather than the PC who shouts the loudest in the group.
I blame the Mortal Kombat override.
I will be speaking from a more social RP background; the idea of PvP and conflict with high stakes (permanent death, or worse) was a difficult adjustment for me. I still struggle with roleplaying correctly because I fear the consequences, but at least I can now say I recognize this is an area to work on. But, that wasn't always the case.
Posts like this help me put a few things into perspective. First: it's okay to disagree. You may not be the person who would gain anything from reading this post. I, however, am. That's the view I'm talking from.
Second: if I'm in control of a situation - because that is how the dice fell - then it's up to me to take the next step forward. I have to weigh a few considerations in a relatively short span of time: what will be the most fun for everyone involved; what will tell the best story; what is fair to other players; will I end a story by making my choice; what is in-character or realistic?
That's really tough for me, because I'm used to only thinking in the first and last terms. I think about moments, scenes, and not the bigger picture. It's why, if I'm lucky, people remember my characters, but the server never does. It's in those middle concerns where we are really asking other players to buy-in to our idea of how it should go. An investment of time and effort, like leading a project and getting all your stakeholders to agree on how to go forward. I don't just mean within a faction, either; everyone you interact with and who would reasonably interact back with you.
DMs use NPC interaction and loot to give clues as to what our options are; they help to keep us from focusing too much on one of those questions and ignoring others. The reason posts like this are valuable to me is because they help me remember these questions on my own, so that next time I'm faced with a decision IC I can make the one that best fits with all considerations.
I think something to remember is that mob mentalities are a very real thing.
Even in many fantasy settings, the common folk - regardless of their personalities - gather in mobs with torches & pitchforks. I'd say it's perfectly acceptable to be swept up in a frenzied witch hunt, though there obviously must be some sense - an LE character is not going to join the Paladin-led mob seeking to put down the Banite fleeing the mob, except in extenuating circumstances.
But a lot of the points raised have been very valid, if irrelevant to the initial discussion. Red vs Blue is fine, if handled correctly. If not, then you end up with a - pardon my language - dissatisfying clusterfuck.
Quote from: Relinquish;296239I've had deaths that were deemed "acceptable and fine" by DMs where the interaction was nothing more than 15 minutes with no prior interactions. It's when I hear my characters death was legitimate by a DM under circumstances like this when PvP etiquette becomes something of a joke.
+1
To chip in with my thoughts, for whatever they are worth...
Just because you have won PvP does not mean that you should feel entitled to do whatever you like to the person you have beaten. They are not loot piñatas, they are creations of a living breathing person who may have put a lot of effort into his or her character, not to mention many hours of play time. In PvP and its aftermath especially, roleplay is of paramount importance. Letting an enemy live when you could have killed him is a good way of getting a conflict going that may become lasting and of great RP value to not only you and your enemy, but also others who may become involved. And if you do intend to kill your victim, RP becomes even more important. You need to give the other guy a chance to speak her or his piece, to negotiate for life if that is what they want, or to speak some final words of defiance at least.
Obviously, this cuts both ways. If you have been defeated, RP is critical if you want to live. Speaking words of defiance may be in character for you, but it is possible to do so without adding insults, slurs or threats to the person who has you at her or his mercy. But if you just spew reams of obscenities at them instead, well, expect your survival chances to plummet like the meteor in Armageddon. And if your person is a more ordinary character who is willing to negotiate, argue or beg for her/his life, all the better.
During the time I played Kara Szantovich I happened to be in the role of captor or victor in PvP more often than on any other character of mine. Time after time I was placed in situations where what I did could mean life or death for another player's character. As a member of the Muster who was often listened to and put in charge of prisoners, I had to make sure that the RP for these prisoners was satisfying and that they did not feel like they were just being kicked around. Because with the state of law in Mistlocke, I frankly never knew if they were going to live or die, so it became necessary for me to do it with care with every one. (This does not mean being nice to everyone, just RP fairly with everyone!)
Also, even when dragging condemned prisoners along to their executions, we (PCs and DMs both) tried to do it in a way to allow escape attempts (several of these being successful), pleas for clemency (some of these successful as well) or dramatic last speeches. Last words are especially important when your character is about to go down; it rarely hurts to ask someone if they have some of these once you have made up your mind to kill.
But to finish with the other side: in those cases where I have killed other PCs, I have nearly always first roleplayed with them while they were subdued. And in nearly every case, I only killed those who talked themselves into their grave. I am not saying that PCs only ever get killed for mouthing off to people who beat them, just that it is a great contribution to the death counts of PCs. Two examples: one, a duel with a guy who had repeatedly insulted my character's lord and master. I won and was about to walk off with a warning when the guy 1) repeats his original insult and 2) called me a whore. My character was rather tense due to the impending doomsday of H'bala, decided that enough was enough and chopped the guy's head off. I left the corpse behind, figuring that if he had any friends, they could raise him. Two, a Stargazer I chased in the woods. We fought, I won, I tried to interrogate him. But during minutes of attempted RP I got nothing. He seemingly just went AFK or something. I freely admit, I came this close to FDing him out of sheer irritation, but instead I just looted some gold from him and an amulet, figuring it was the fine for ignoring his captor.
The short version of it all: Remember that your defeated opponent is a person, too. Remember that the person you just beat may be the winner the next time. Playing fair encourages others to play fair back. Being an arse will encourage others to ****** you in yours. And that will just escalate.
The short short version: DON'T BE AN ARSE.
As to mob mentality, all I can say is that it is very real and it is tempting to get lost in it. Try not to, it rarely leads any place good. Mind you, I mean in an OOC fashion -- the player should try to avoid mob mentality, hard as it may be. It's perfectly fine for the character to be caught up in it, as long as it is clearly IC and the player her/himself is ready to apply the brakes before things go too far.
~tOH.
The worst thing is when I see a PC subdue another PC and immediately take the opportunity to grab as much stuff as possible.
Well, my involvement in this event was something much different than I think a lot of people got. I wasn't robbed, or killed, and got a neat little hostage exchange/negotiation/escape RP out of it. At one point I could have very easily finished off one of my kidnappers on the ground with a quick punch, but I didn't....because frankly it would have been poor form and really wouldn't be telling anything of a story for anybody except notching one of the "bad guys" on my wall of victims.
I think that point is what people are missing. You want the PVP to be meaningful, to build up to it, and hopefully have that point where someone is finally defeated and killed be a big, meaningful moment. This can't always happen though, sometimes the situation just doesn't give you a way out of killing someone off...but think to yourself if you even care to look for a way to not kill someone very often in these situations.
Does it REALLY add anything if you murder a bunch of people who have no idea who you are, never saw you, never met you, and never will by the fact that they are now dead? That's more Arena PVP than RP PVP to me.
Some of this is why I often shy away from PVP so much. People(including myself) often forget they are telling a story when they hostile up, and instead go for the body count.
It's a co-op story, not a realism sim. What do you not understand?
Reading through the original post, and the linked threads, I found this little statement I think some of the folks involved can apply.
QuoteShould you end a story, you should make sure it changes your character. It can be little or it can be massive based on the story in question.
For example, let's say you were a neutral bystander who joined the demon summoner side, simply because your character was on amicable terms with them and didn't know anyone from the other side.
After surviving the event, you might now be having pangs of guilt over what you have done, coming to the realisation of just how heinous the act was. This can easily be roleplayed, subtly or conspicuously in interactions along with future choices and can result in some pretty awesome RP.
If anyone remembers, when I was playing Amadeus, I made that character never forget what he had done in the slaying of his wife and that resulted in some excellent roleplay situations throughout his tenure, till the very end! Note as well, I could have easily just pretended it never happened, and could potentially pass that off as in-character as well, but that I did not, was without doubt the best possible choice.
Quote from: Aethereal;296287If anyone remembers, when I was playing Amadeus, I made that character never forget what he had done in the slaying of his wife and that resulted in some excellent roleplay situations throughout his tenure, till the very end! Note as well, I could have easily just pretended it never happened, and could potentially pass that off as in-character as well, but that I did not, was without doubt the best possible choice.
Doubled and redoubled. Amadeus was awesome and it really polarised people around him. I happened to play a character who knew Amadeus and Rena before the end of EfU and due to some big mistakes of her own in her past could see his side of it. She backed him and trusted him (she was more than a little bit naïve, WIS 8 can do that to you), and I had a great deal of fun from the whole situation.
Other characters of mine had similar life changing events. Camille de Ferbourg went from a more or less disinterested volunteer soldier to a diehard Trenada supporter after the events in Old Port where the Count betrayed them. Ulfrin went from a mildly greedy potion merchant to a fundraiser for the farmlands after falling under the spell of Micheal Tommas. Karrin Connell became a mortal enemy of the Order after Anotropos' execution at the Order's hands. And so forth.
An event can change a character for better or for worse, but the important part is that you are affected by people around you. Getting your life spared by someone might be as big as you yourself choosing to kill (or not.) This does not mean that you have to completely change your character personality or goals, of course -- but it does mean that it could lead to very cool RP to have what happens
affect you.
Not to mention that people feel appreciated when you show that their RP means something to you. That's also worth noting.
~tOH.
Quote from: lovethesuit;296270I have to weigh a few considerations in a relatively short span of time: what will be the most fun for everyone involved; what will tell the best story; what is fair to other players; will I end a story by making my choice; what is in-character or realistic?
That's really tough for me, because I'm used to only thinking in the first and last terms. I think about moments, scenes, and not the bigger picture. It's why, if I'm lucky, people remember my characters, but the server never does.
This to me is key. I will never be known as a great PvPer but I have had memorable characters that have had awesome stories and were absolutely ridiculous fun to play. Most times "The Awesome" comes from fine role-play and originality.
Not entirely on-topic, but I had to jump on with LTS on this opinion. I couldn't help it.
Also this.
Quote from: Winston Martin;296286It's a co-op story, not a realism sim. What do you not understand?
It's more of a OOC trust thing when it comes to etiquette and favors, if I may be honest.
I can't really say I can speak on this thoroughly because I am a very distrusting person in reality and find a tendency to get screwed over when I give people a bit of room. However, these thoughts usually occur to me when I think about being in someone else's shoes:
"Why should I do this guy any favors? He won't return it. He'll just round up a bunch of like-minded fellows because the island is crammed with them, give them potions, go invisible, gank me while I'm out and about, then give me a few insulting words before killing me in some terrible manner."
"I'm not going to get another chance at this, it can end right here. It doesn't have to continue. I can make off with some nice things from him and have a unmolested evening."
"This is stupid. I'm not going to bother."
People by nature will always attempt to even the odds. They won't take defeat easily if they can do something in the matter. Players already do not trust eachother to not metagame or act properly if given a bit of space. At least, this is what I've gathered from listening to people talk on IRC.
Until you can trust someone, the vicious cycle will never stop and they will always gear their characters as merciless extremists because they're afraid to put a large amount of detail behind a character when their possibility to live is about a week and a half.
Just a theory.
Also;
QuoteAs for a red vs blue arena server......There is paladins I cant think of a class that more encourages red vs blue then that class which is basically devoted to smiting, and thwarting characters because of an alignment. We have people killing eachother for things like faction affiliation. I would also say there is literally a red vs blue blood vs crips going on in real life. So in many ways warfare, and conflicts happen.
Paladins do not 'smite people' just because they are evil. My current PC is evil and at least two Paladins have showed disgust to him. They've questioned why they see a black taint in him, but they've not attacked him outright for it when he was by himself out in the open. If the character was openly doing necromancy or some sort've vile art, sure, they would probably punch his face in. That doesn't mean they're extreme enemies.
As for 'Bloods and Crips' gang wars that you're using of a example, gang-bangers are not the portrayed badasses that they make themselves out to be on camera. Most 'murder' cases, they're charged for one or two murders, and that was by a spur of the moment rage where they just shot him. There is extreme cases, but when it boils down to it, they're just groups of young, poverty stricken morons who're pushing drugs or other illegal services to turn a buck. It is not a constant war between neighborhoods.
Quote from: Pool;296337It's more of a OOC trust thing when it comes to etiquette and favors, if I may be honest.
I can't really say I can speak on this thoroughly because I am a very distrusting person in reality and find a tendency to get screwed over when I give people a bit of room. However, these thoughts usually occur to me when I think about being in someone else's shoes:
"Why should I do this guy any favors? He won't return it. He'll just round up a bunch of like-minded fellows because the island is crammed with them, give them potions, go invisible, gank me while I'm out and about, then give me a few insulting words before killing me in some terrible manner."
"I'm not going to get another chance at this, it can end right here. It doesn't have to continue. I can make off with some nice things from him and have a unmolested evening."
"This is stupid. I'm not going to bother."
While what you describe are certainly understandable fears and concerns, it is still conceivable that they are exaggerated. I have spared enemies I have personally defeated and never had this happen to me. It may simply be that I am a statistical glitch or that I have been very lucky, but a naïve part of me quite simply hopes that it means that the Invisible Revenge Gank Squad is a less common phenomenon than some believe. :???:
Edit: I should add that it has happened to me that someone has invisibly attacked and FDed my characters, but in these cases it was normally due to political assassination or matters like that. Of course that is a crap feeling but in none of these cases was it a direct consequence of defeating and then sparing an enemy.
Quote from: The Old Hack;296338While what you describe are certainly understandable fears and concerns, it is still conceivable that they are exaggerated. I have spared enemies I have personally defeated and never had this happen to me. It may simply be that I am a statistical glitch or that I have been very lucky, but a naïve part of me quite simply hopes that it means that the Invisible Revenge Gank Squad is a less common phenomenon than some believe. :???:
Then that makes you an exception, I guess. And it's good that you remain optimistic on it. But on the grand scale of things, this is a common occurrence and until it ceases to be a easy "I win" button, it will continue to be used.
Quote from: Pool;296340Then that makes you an exception, I guess. And it's good that you remain optimistic on it. But on the grand scale of things, this is a common occurrence and until it ceases to be a easy "I win" button, it will continue to be used.
Oh yes. I am not saying you are wrong, only that I hope it isn't as bad as all that. *sigh*
And in truth, I have seen some incredibly sad stuff happen even if not exactly what you describe -- for example, a big PvP melee is going on and suddenly someone decides to switch to FD and run around killing all the already subdued enemies. And the understandably angered characters of the opposing side then also go FD and return the favour. (There are degrees. One of the cases of this featured some in-combat RP first where the person who started killing clearly and repeatedly warned the other side that he would do this if they did not withdraw from battle, and they ignored it. Whether this was good roleplay may be debatable, but at least he tried. But the other case was just someone deciding 'crap, our side is losing, let me make it as expensive as possible for the enemy,' and I felt and feel that that was actually pretty sad.)
Even so, the above events were exceptions, and I rather feel that they serve to support the point that too-hurried and/or badly roleplayed kills just cause things to escalate. (Come to think of it, I myself have yet to chase someone down with an invisible gank squad for having the temerity to defeat me in combat and then let me live. Maybe I am just a poor PvPer. o.O)
~tOH.
Well, I cringe when I hear players use terms like "Bull pots" IC, or fighters calling spells by their game name. To me saying burning someone to prevent a raise is using a Game term IC. Similarly, "Use BLUR". "Use See Invis" terms. I'm about to slap xp penalty, but always refrain myself to instead just go reward people who don't.
You burn them out of religious conviction. You dispose of the body out of preventing the law of finding it. You feed it to rats because you're a crazy rat shepard. Saying that the raison to burn them is TO PREVENT A RAISE is like a character saying "Ouch, you hit for 20 damage!" instead of "Ouch, that cut deep!" . Arena server do the former, roleplay servers try to convert all game terms into In-character terms with in-character justifications. Arena server favor optimized crushers. Roleplay server favor style. And it's painfully easy to a DM to see one that does it for style and one that does it to 'win'.
Nothing in my initial post is saying that evil acts should go unpunished at all, neither should all battles end with a subdual and a pat on the back. Not sure where you get that from -- It's very hard to justify not killing someone once they swore openly to Cyric or summoned Demons... If they manage to convince you and have the charisma, good on you and them, but otherwise that's a story reason.. Please oppose them with more than mere words/forum posts.
I'm also not a fan of the evil/good/nature/faction x clubhouse/team idea, and would incitate people to avoid thinking in that way. Sure you can think about a theme for your PC, but build some meat around that..
But factionalism is openly promoted by the server dynamic. Conflict between the Dm factions and associations is promoted, consistently, by the DM team. When there's no conflicts going on, situations are pushed so there will be conflict. Now these conflicts have story reasons, but the end result is there's always that mentality that you should be fighting anyone not in your faction just because they're not in your faction.
I've also seen DM's try to push non-violent sparring tourneys into FD ones, so it's obvious we're -wanted- to PVP/kill each other.
I can understand everyone having slang terms for items like 'blur' or 'bulls' since a lot of people say it and the rest of us pick it up. We are gamers after all and the internet jams a lot of slang into our heads. and HELL, ITS WHAT THE POTION NAME SAYS SOMETIMES. It's like the paladin with no lore finding a demon skin armor in the charity chest and when he reads the items name he goes THIS IS DEMONIC, MUST TRASH PIT.
I think your completely missing the point the DM's are trying to make Gotham.
We are -encouraged- to take risks, we are encouraged to go against the flow, to stir the pot. Why? Because it makes an interesting dynamic, because it allows the playerbase to rally to causes.
If we did not do these things, EFU would be stagnant constantly, we would not have epic tales of villains or Heroes who rose to the highest heights, and then came crashing down.
When a DM pushes a constant so that players fight to the death, its to make it more interesting. Is it fun to hit one another and at the end get a pat on the back? Yes, but I can certainly say its far more interesting in a spectator and a competitor perspective when you know two people are fighting, and one of them may be killed.
When a DM pushes this kind of things, it is never without some kind of reward, whether its XP, loot or even taking a larger interest in your pc and his/her actions.
Another point is, that while we are encouraged to form conflict with other factions and associations. That does not mean we cannot cause conflict within them. It is far more enjoyable for DM's and players to see a faction taking over a town, but also knowing or even suspecting that whats holding that group together is a very very thing sheet of ice.
Groups have done amazing things, and then came crumbling down from betrayals -within- them. Being kept on your toes is a good thing, EFU is not about feeling safe, its about struggling to survive and wondering where that next knife will come from. Your enemy? Or you best friend you've been stealing all the credit from.
As for the message as a whole.
This is a reoccuring thing, something the team constantly tells players. In the Past I have had moments when a DM has sent me a tell saying, it would be harsh to kill a player.
But more often than not, you will find them and your victim far more impressed when you decide. No, I wont kill him, today I will remove a limb. I'll make him play a game of chance to see if he lives. I'll take some gold and send him on his way.
Building an epic rivalry is far more impressive to come across than seeing a character who you know will just outright kill you. Why will other players want to interact with you? Why will they think about sparing you given that kind of reputation?
You will find that some people wont get the hint, wont get the message, be the bigger player and help the Community as a whole instead of yourself.
I don't really think we have 'epic' tales of heroes and villains though, we've got a never ending gang war, thugs murdering each other for gold and supplies to murder each other more.\
Moreover, what EFU 'is', is in the eye of the beholder. I find stories of cooperation to be far more interesting than Game of Thrones style quadruple-crossing political machination.
It reaches the point of self parody, where every character has an ulterior motive and is betraying everyone else around then, because it's "interesting", and nothing any player makes can really last any amount of time because it's more 'fun' to destroy than to cooperate- and establishing anything is an invitation to have that something subverted or ruined in the name of driving an individuals own gain.
You know the old joke, "All Clerics of Illmater are Cyricists, all clerics of Waukeen are Maskarrans"?
That's because a lot of them -HAVE- been.
What is being said is that yes we are cooperatively story telling, but working together to weave a story OOCly is not the same as being best buddies with everyone because they are part of your Red group. If you are for example a wyrm watcher barbarian you may hold the belief that the King of the Isles will be a great chieftain like gaeseric, you are working with your fellow watchers however another may thing that it's ridiculous a king could be a tribal and he -must- be a noble. Thus you are -both- seeking the king, you are -both- in the same faction and hold common enemies, but you're also internally conflicting and making more intrigue. Just saying "We must all think the same way and aim to achieve things this way without any deviation" is not as interesting.
As its been said, all those who seem to think "Other people will kill me so I must do the same" that's precisely the mentality that means it happens. If you justify killing others to avoid being killed yourself like that then the attitude will spread and becoem a vicious circle of blame. Maybe you do die after you spare someone, maybe it is annoying, but if bit by bit people step away from doing it then the exceptions are really going to stand out and not be accepted. It's a question of whether you want to do what is fun for more people and good for EFU or if you just want to give in to doing the wrong thing in order to win.
It's not just in PvP where this occurs. It's odd, but you learn who you can and can't OOCly trust, concerning the OOC players of certain characters.
I've said for a long time, the great days of mystery and lore and glory are gone. Replaced now by a RP-lite PvP based conflict server. While some find it interesting, you get these mentality like the OP was discussing. EFU:M has stayed very far from the ideals of EFU in my eyes. I've seen what the OP speaks about for a long time now, atleast finially a DM saw it or atleast admitted it is an issue.
Quote from: putrid_plum;296692I've said for a long time, the great days of mystery and lore and glory are gone.
Alas! for the glory of the world is less than it was; e'en nostalgia is not what it used to be.
Perhaps the best option would be to focus more on the RP for a while, and a bit less on the PvP and conflict. Finest conflicts will emerge out of good RP, after all.
Quote from: Misted_Horror;296402It's not just in PvP where this occurs. It's odd, but you learn who you can and can't OOCly trust, concerning the OOC players of certain characters.
<.<
>.>
^.^
V.V
Semi-True.
Perhaps it'd be best to relax the constant drive towards PvP and Conflict, and instead put a bit more emphasis on RP and exploration for a good while.
Regarding the last few comments, declaring that the roleplay, mystery and lore of the server is gone. Well, I have not seen it this way, although since there are enough eyes seeing it so, there has to be some truth to it and I have can see where it's coming from.
I think it depends on your focus as a player, if you enjoy the PvP and develop intrigues to foster more of it, then that's probably the majority of what you'll see. I guess I just focus more on developing stories and sharing them, with plenty of conflict mind, just most of it is subtle and doesn't require hurling spells or slicing people up at the weakest of provocation.
I shall conclude by saying: If you want to see more of it, then contribute to it (I assure you there are others interested in enjoying the same and ready to cooperate) rather than bemoan the lack of something which inherently requires your active input to shine.
Some of these angsty rose-glassed replies make me a bit sad.
The server is what you make of it. I've had nothing but awesome experiences since playing EFU:M and I go out of my way to make sure OOC secrets stay secret (try not to read certain letters I know will spoil something, stop people mid-sentence if I think they are telling me something I don't want to know...hey maybe I'm one of the few people that still doesn't know every alchemy recipe off the top of their head or even knows what you can do with alchemy).
Some people go out of their way to uncover secrets on IRC then wonder where the mystery went.
If you're finding the mystery, secrets and allure is not there for you, maybe you should change the way you're playing, you might enjoy things more. I may never know my way around every zone, or know how to crush every quest, or how to win every PVP.....but I know how to enjoy the server.
Quote from: Vlaid;296766Some of these angsty rose-glassed replies make me a bit sad.
This may possibly be because some of them
are a bit sad.
QuoteIf you're finding the mystery, secrets and allure is not there for you, maybe you should change the way you're playing, you might enjoy things more. I may never know my way around every zone, or know how to crush every quest, or how to win every PVP.....but I know how to enjoy the server.
Doubled and redoubled.
~tOH.
Quote from: putrid_plum;296692I've said for a long time, the great days of mystery and lore and glory are gone. Replaced now by a RP-lite PvP based conflict server. While some find it interesting, you get these mentality like the OP was discussing. EFU:M has stayed very far from the ideals of EFU in my eyes. I've seen what the OP speaks about for a long time now, atleast finially a DM saw it or atleast admitted it is an issue.
I agree 100%
Quote from: Aethereal;296731Regarding the last few comments, declaring that the roleplay, mystery and lore of the server is gone. Well, I have not seen it this way, although since there are enough eyes seeing it so, there has to be some truth to it and I have can see where it's coming from.
I think it depends on your focus as a player, if you enjoy the PvP and develop intrigues to foster more of it, then that's probably the majority of what you'll see. I guess I just focus more on developing stories and sharing them, with plenty of conflict mind, just most of it is subtle and doesn't require hurling spells or slicing people up at the weakest of provocation.
I shall conclude by saying: If you want to see more of it, then contribute to it (I assure you there are others interested in enjoying the same and ready to cooperate) rather than bemoan the lack of something which inherently requires your active input to shine.
You weren't here for the underdark so please don't try to convince vets like me, and plum who know what we are talking about when we say this is not EFU.
I've seen the server go through phases where exploration, research, and discovery were the main thrust of conflicts. Right now, I think we're in the middle of an age where people are fighting for control. But none of that can then be dragged out to encompass the entire server, forever.
It changes. Constantly. When these characters die, when this conflict grows stale, another one will come to take its place.
Best of all, even when you think it's nothing but PvP and conflict, there are a few PCs off where you can't see them accomplishing something entirely different.
Quote from: Dr Dragon;296799You weren't here for the underdark so please don't try to convince vets like me, and plum who know what we are talking about when we say this is not EFU.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzpndHtdl9A
I was here in the underdark. And yeah. There was plenty of the same there has been now and through all the years. You just don't want to remember it.
Every setting had it's own driving force and situation. It changes, and characters change it. I enjoy myself, as I enjoyed playing in the underdark.
For Plum and DrD, I do not agree to your sentiments. You play your characters, I'm sure you got some damn influence on how the game progresses for you. If you want to avoid getting into conflict, agree to all the enemies demands. Grovel, weep, cry. What ever. There's always more than one side to things, and this situation isn't born without the influence of all.
DoctorDragon, while you are entitled to your opinion, I think I see you stepping out of line.
The servers mysteries are still there to be explored. I personally still have no idea about the following:
QuoteWho is the king?
What was the purpose of the Machine?
What is the nature of the Old Stones Curse?
The "Last" keep?
How did the Second Shrouding effect Old Port?
Is the Grandmaster really an illithid?
Why is H'bala trying to destroy all this?
Who the fuck is Muskroot?
Who is Howland and where can I meet him?
The Guardians of the Mist...
The List goes on.
There are still mysteries to explore, things to discover, people to meet and plots to unravel. The jaded tones of Plum and DrD really are inapplicable here, sure you might know more about the setting than I do, but why are you saying this is the case for everyone where mystery is no longer present and intrigue no longer has a place?
Who are you to speak for me?
The server is as dynamic as ever, and the server is in flux at the moment with several key figures entering and a few leaving the scene due to various events. I encourage everyone to continue to pursue their plots with as much zeal as ever, and consider solving problems for a change not with a dice roll, but with a conflict oriented ideal that is battled in the arena of politics or knowledge.
Some of the most influential and successful characters have never won a solid PVP fight.
They have strong henchmen, or they manipulate their way around battles, or they simply escape.
It's very easy to get locked into the mindset of "I must quest and become strong so that "I" (my character) will be invincible and I can do cool stuff".
Problem is, the stronger a character gets, the more likely a player seems to be to be reckless in battle with said character. With a few exceptions, having a "strong" character does not really guarantee much more survival (beyond a reasonable amount. Obviously an 8 CON elf will have problems).
If you don't like PVP battles, or you're bad at them, or you simply want to try something else, start thinking of every PVP battle as lost from the start, and do your best to escape/ameliorate/etc.
Quote from: Dr Dragon;296799You weren't here for the underdark so please don't try to convince vets like me, and plum who know what we are talking about when we say this is not EFU.
I fear nostalgia is just a branch of emotion (arguably tends towards being illogical and irrational), far be it from me to tell you how to feel or not, it was hardly what I was trying to convey. There is no harm in being nostalgic of an experience you once knew, but if you refrain from changing your mindset and wallow away in the dreams of yore, you will only recreate your expectations regarding the present and future.
Off topic - This is no EFU, no. But I fear you entitled players forget that we have still put hundreds of man hours into entertaining you all. It is rather offensive to be told the server you have worked on is terrible. If you have no desire to make it a better place, more in line with previous versions, and want to simply complain on the forums instead; well, perhaps this server doesn't hold what you want anymore.
Look, PvP is and has been and always will be a tricky issue.
One thing I will say definitively, and that is the
DM TEAM DOES NOT LOOK TO ACTIVELY REWARD PVP BASED CHARACTERS OVER OTHER ONES. To be honest, guys, mostly the DM team is just lazy (busy? exhausted?) and rewards PCs based off of having time to reward and noticing them doing interesting things (whatever that may be). Playing an excellent character (see rock my socks, characterization threads, etc.) that is just around a lot and goes on DM events and so on will eventually get "rewarded" (whatever that means - custom loot I suppose, which seems like a silly thing to try to be playing for). But please, players, just relax a bit about the idea that DMs can manage to pay attention to every incident and uniformly passes judgment on how neat your character is - the team does its best, and tries to keep the server running, but your primary motivation should be your own enjoyment and satisfaction - not recognition from others.
So PvP, well - it's hard to balance because in my view you have to get the right balance between choosing more interesting methods of conflict (and there are many) and not rushing to FD someone (important) vs. the reality that sometimes in our harsh and grim server sometimes characters just "need to get got."
But actually now I'm rushing in to comment, from the perspective of someone who is admittedly not really active at the moment, because I find the EFU nostalgia demonstrated here to be extremely silly.
Regarding PvP, I'm confident to say that EFU was the worst in terms of PvP causing problems and hurt feelings. For example, a quick and very cursory glance at the old EFU forums reveal that we documented no less than 7 pvp related issues with Dr Dragon (some of which led to his temporary banning). So I'm sorry for it to be necessary to bring it up, but as a useful exercise in demonstrating how misleading nostalgia can be, here's just one quote from your "record" Dr. Dragon...
QuoteYeah, on Dr Dragon the ban came from repeated offenses over a period of time. Mainly repeated metagaming of NPC watchmen and PvP infront of them (x4, all with warnings and explanations), metagaming NPCs in different manners, repeated full and ninja looting of downed characters he had no involvement in the combat with, with different characters (with repeated warnings). The ban came as a result of the last episode of ninja looting in which he was directly told to drop everything he had and stop looting. He remained in the area to attempt to loot again and was stopped a total of 2 more times after the OOC DM warning. Yes looting is not a bannable offense, but ninja looting while people are in combat over defending the body he is looting is a no go.
And yes, he has caused be no end of trouble and grief in dealing with him over the last month or so. This last offense was it for me in a long list of offenses.
Now of course you've grown up a lot in the years since then, Dr Dragon, and it's been great to see your increased maturity as a player and human being. But to come in this thread as an inactive player, insult other players and say that EFU was some kind of golden age of PvP courtesy (when your own record reveals it was anything but; indeed it was a much harsher time with more headaches for DMs) struck me as sort of
earth-shatteringly absurd.In terms of setting lore/mysteries, all I will say for now is that the setting remains
the same regardless of chapter actually and that all of you, whether you realize it or not, are part of one continuous story and that understanding the nuances and details of this story is something I encourage you to do.