Right,
Yesterday a group of some eight or nine PCs entered a random encounter exploration area found in the tunnels of the Dell. After first killing some fairly easy ogres in a tunnel we found an area with a sign saying 'beware the Bloodhowl' or words to that effect. Our group, which was probably level seven or so average, prepared for a fight and buffed up.
We promptly got hit by a floodwave of Orcs, which was not in and of itself the problem. They were darn tough but our front line could hold them, barely. The problem was more that then an Orcan shadowdancer NPC appeared behind our line and proceeded to brutally kill all the support characters in moments. It one-shotted our cleric, took down my sorcerer with two blows and paralysed an archer with a single death attack before moving on chasing the next target. It did not take long before the entire front line, now without healers and support, got rolled up and wiped out. Ironically I stabilised only to be instagibbed by an Orcan archer the very moment my character stood up. Only two characters escaped.
Perhaps these encounter areas should be looked a bit into. The main charge of Orcs was in and of itself deadly. With a shadowdancer added in who was powerful enough to kill support characters in seconds, and targeting these specifically, it got kind of ridiculous. We had no warning of the shadowdancer, no way of stopping him, and thirty seconds after he popped up the damage was done.
Please note that I am not writing this to ask for reimbursement or anything, I am simply trying to give some constructive criticism. I just think that maybe it needs a bit of toning down. It is possible that a higher level group could have handled the challenge, but if this was the intent, maybe an IC or OOC warning sign of some sort stressing that this was an extreme danger area might be a good idea. And, er, come to think of it -- was this 'Bloodhowl' sign actually it, and we simply too ignorant of ingame lore to realise that we were about to kick open the hornet's nest? (I am not saying that it should necessarily be replaced by something as obvious as "The Shargaas Legacy School for Champions of Gathmaar", though it's an idea.)
Regards,
~tOH.
I know that random encounter, and the whole set up basically points towards danger. You can pretty much firgure out your up against orcs and everything they have to offer. (And this is by no means the hardest encounter) As for orc shadow dancers, it just sounds like you had a bad time or were poorly prepared, these SD can spawn in pretty common areas of Ymph without any warning and while they can be deadly its a good reason not to travel alone/unprepared.
If you invade the lands of a tribe of orcs, don't expect it to be a cake-walk. Retreat is always an option. From how you've explained it, it seems like your front line did nothing to prevent the assassin from wiping you out one by one. I for one don't think this encounter requires any change and i welcome all these additional areas that crop up on occasion.
I admit, next time I see an exploration area indicate the presence of Orcs I will probably advise retreat unless travelling together with a party consisting of Gaeseric, Master Tau, Gadyw Aberdenn, Volkmar Plowman and Duke Trenada. *scratches head*
Efu, is meant to be a challenge, it is meant to be scary, brutal and at times unforgiving.
You said yourself, you where given a sign warning you of the encounter ahead, at that point you had two options, walk away or proceed. You decided to go ahead, and died because of it. Be glad you could respawn and are now, wiser because of the experience.
Or just scout... I strongly doubt the orcs appeared on the transition. If they did, that's something I'm willing to look at.
On this occassion I have to say we were ill prepared. Our front line rushed into the area ahead, and failed to protect the support. Honestly it felt like we were being PvP'd by either Mort or Caddies. It was a brutal onslaught.
In the past exploring areas, like the one described, it was common to exhaust your buff supply ahead of time, but be rewarded with a complete refill of buff potions and magical items. If properly prepared the reward is far greater then I've seen elsewhere on the server unless its a personalized quest.
I do think it was slightly over powered, but I also think the reward would have justified overwhelming force should our group had triumphed.
Having done enough random areas to form an opinion, and having done that one of course. For that particular death hole, the danger is far greater than the reward, unless your party is optimized, cohesive and has team speak.
Just be happy you didn't get a hero version of the bad ass orcs like me.
Having done this particular random before, I can say that it is IMPERATIVE your group works as a team. If you rush ahead, as Unholy said, prepare to die. Always take it slow, leave room for the support to get to the frontline, leave room for the frontline to make a retreat if need be, and always have those invisipots hotkeyed. Especially if you are a mid-level party. It is doable, I have done it before with great care, but you can't be foolhardy or overconfident. Anytime you go into a random that requires two or more, always stress to your party that teamwork is a must.
This thread seems kinda pointless, it gives you plenty hints as to the challenge of the quest and as its been said you can send scouts like in the majority of encounters you can find on EFU:M. Its not as overpowered as some people seem to be making it out to be. Just sounds like you made a few bad decisions and died to some standard orc spawns.
They don't spawn in the transition. There is a problem with it though, when you enter the cave they are all too busy attacking the orcan statue than you.
Quote from: CakePlease;297684This thread seems kinda pointless,
Which is why you are keeping it alive by complaining about how pointless it is, of course. :)
But I have to disagree. The
suggestion I made might have been pointless or less than useful. The
responses I received -- including your first one, but not including your second one -- I found valuable and thought provoking. Bluntly put, I think I have been spoiled by doing a lot of ordinary scripted quests in which it doesn't matter so much if the formation is a bit loose and a couple of front liners are undisciplined. If nothing else, this has reminded me that fools rush in, and that all too often, rushing after the fools will just get you killed as well.
On my first NWN server I learned a good trick. That if nobody paid attention to me when I urged caution, they probably wouldn't pay attention if I loitered invisible where it was safe while they rushed in to get killed, either. Might be occasionally useful to remember this here, too.
Edit:
Quote from: Mort;297655Or just scout... I strongly doubt the orcs appeared on the transition. If they did, that's something I'm willing to look at.
No, they did not appear on the transition. We had plenty of room at first. When they did come, they rushed us in almost a floodwave. No complaints there, we had time to run if we had had the brains to. But we never reached the cave, so I can't say if the statue problem persists.
Quote from: The Old Hack;297653I admit, next time I see an exploration area indicate the presence of Orcs I will probably advise retreat unless travelling together with a party consisting of Gaeseric, Master Tau, Gadyw Aberdenn, Volkmar Plowman and Duke Trenada. *scratches head*
I second that. Having been there I don't think we were particularly underprepared or had faulty tactics like are often pointed to. I had every buff possible from spells and potions up and it just wasn't enough.
Quote from: Professor Death;297718I second that. Having been there I don't think we were particularly underprepared or had faulty tactics like are often pointed to. I had every buff possible from spells and potions up and it just wasn't enough.
Ah... a word or two. Our tactics were not exactly faulty in the sense that we were being undisciplined, but they simply were not as tight as they could have been. Mind you, tightening them up would have meant retreating behind a corner, defending a choke point and having the option open for a front liner to step back and help the rear line if it got in trouble. And much less room for a disaster like that shadowdancer to operate in.
I realise that this seems almost impossibly anal-retentive, but truth be told, that is the standard to hold to if you want a really solid defense running. As it was, we did have a front line but it left a wide gap mobs could move past and also we had no cover against missiles. Given how much damage their archers did, the rear line might have fallen apart under their fire even if the shadowdancer hadn't been there.
Quote from: The Old Hack;297735Ah... a word or two. Our tactics were not exactly faulty in the sense that we were being undisciplined, but they simply were not as tight as they could have been. Mind you, tightening them up would have meant retreating behind a corner, defending a choke point and having the option open for a front liner to step back and help the rear line if it got in trouble. And much less room for a disaster like that shadowdancer to operate in.
I realise that this seems almost impossibly anal-retentive, but truth be told, that is the standard to hold to if you want a really solid defense running. As it was, we did have a front line but it left a wide gap mobs could move past and also we had no cover against missiles. Given how much damage their archers did, the rear line might have fallen apart under their fire even if the shadowdancer hadn't been there.
OOC of course, I saw that there was a choke that should have been used, but IC I stayed with the line until it was clear that things were BAD - I had enough buffs up to avoid the archer issues, but in the attempt at withdrawal, was taken out by the aforementioned shadowdancers and death attacks.
Have a spot/listener in the group? Did the Shadowdancers have see invis? If not, invis pot.
Quote from: Professor Death;297739OOC of course, I saw that there was a choke that should have been used, but IC I stayed with the line until it was clear that things were BAD - I had enough buffs up to avoid the archer issues, but in the attempt at withdrawal, was taken out by the aforementioned shadowdancers and death attacks.
*nods* I think the key word here is IC. Acting IC can be painful. If you play an impulsive character that charges ahead, expect to die. A lot. Until you learn from it, that is. On the other hand, playing a seriously overconfident character who keeps getting himself into messes can be great fun for the onlookers at least, once they have learned the painful lesson that trying to save the Mad Charger from himself is very, very hard to do unscathed. See Leeroy Jenkins for why it is sometimes better to just let this kind of guy go and concentrate on keeping your own hide safe.
Quote from: WutWutWutWut;297741Have a spot/listener in the group? Did the Shadowdancers have see invis? If not, invis pot.
I can not speak for the other characters, but I invis potted as soon as I saw the charging Orcs. And at that I took arrow damage first. (Mind you, I do not think that it is unrealistic for a shadowdancer to pack and use see invis potions.)
I think the idea with some of these exploration areas is that some are really dangerous. We have a variety of content in EFU: some is easy, some is dangerous, some is well balanced, some is wildly hard. Scouting and retreat are always (usually?) options.
I love the non-QA high danger areas, they keep you alert! They also illustrate quite effectively the need to have a scout with you who you actually let do their job, something I've found sorely lacking. More high danger random QA's, IMO :D
Quote from: Howland;297760I think the idea with some of these exploration areas is that some are really dangerous. We have a variety of content in EFU: some is easy, some is dangerous, some is well balanced, some is wildly hard. Scouting and retreat are always (usually?) options.
Extra emphasis on retreat. When I did this one being discussed, or a similar one, we would run in and slice up 5-10 orcs, then run and rest up to get spells and trinkets recharged, then run back in and do it all over again. Got through it just fine.
Of course, I was level 9 at the time, and had a level 10 bloodmage with summons... >_> But my point still stands. Our strategy let us two-man it.
Quote from: Adhesive;297807Extra emphasis on retreat. When I did this one being discussed, or a similar one, we would run in and slice up 5-10 orcs, then run and rest up to get spells and trinkets recharged, then run back in and do it all over again. Got through it just fine.
Of course, I was level 9 at the time, and had a level 10 bloodmage with summons... >_> But my point still stands. Our strategy let us two-man it.
Not finger pointing here, but wouldn't this be considered inappropriate metagaming. If not, why would it be okay since it seems to take advantage of AI and game mechanics....
Quote from: Professor Death;297819Not finger pointing here, but wouldn't this be considered inappropriate metagaming. If not, why would it be okay since it seems to take advantage of AI and game mechanics....
Not really. The orcs would stay to defend their encampment, the PCs made tactical retreats to rest and regroup. Guerrilla tactics. Only differences would be that if the Ai were smart enough, the orcs would have set up more traps or build more barricades, or send out scouts. Of course, they
are orcs, so...
Eh. Players did this on my old server. This was fine with any DMs present (such as me), we had the mobs sally out and attack the camp of the players to keep them on their toes.
For some reason, a lot of players insisted on making camp right next to the transition. This meant that when the monsters transitioned out, they landed right on top of the resting players. I really think the monsters ought to have reported the players for transition camping.
I have 3 manned this particular instance with 2 level 8s and a level 7 mage. It is not hard if you are prepared appropriately. The losses can be heavy if you aren't. I personally love the challenge something like this brings and wish they appeared more frequently.
Quote from: TeufelHunden;298085I have 3 manned this particular instance with 2 level 8s and a level 7 mage. It is not hard if you are prepared appropriately. The losses can be heavy if you aren't. I personally love the challenge something like this brings and wish they appeared more frequently.
My issue with this is that to be 'prepaired properly' you have to Metagame what you will find inside. By this I mean YOU know exactly what buffs, spells etc to use.
I've never enjoyed these threads where someone says "This should be looked at because of X" and we get a bunch of responces of "No, just use X,Y,Z and have A,B,C in your party".
I don't always have XYZ and I don't always have ABC in my party and if the area / quest can not be beat without them.. well.. then I will just never do it.
I hate when the ONLY way to beat an area is to have an optimized party or speciafic spells /potions. Not everyone will have those, so reward the ones that do and the others can ummm.. watch.
My .02 and I'm back gone.
Personally id love to experience that situation :P... anyways the shadowdancer does sound harsh, however if he was using death attack then was likely an assassin(unless shadowdancers get death attack now o.O?)IC wise an assassin or shadowdancer would appear behind the party and proceed to kill as many as possible.
However i do agree that increased warning would be nice. As to the magi being taken down one after another, you'd think that after seeing the thing appear and drop one the others would instantly turn to eradicate the one idiot orc who dared appear behind them xD, unless he was hasted and never missed and got enough attacks to drop all of you like that :P(its happened to me before lol...)
In the end I think having a summon or two to protect your hide is always good despite how things are looking, my sorcerer always has a summon or two with him out of action ready to leap to protect him on dangers notice or to take the first hit by being noticed first.
The server is optimized for buffer/melee/damage groups. It's how things are. If you don't have that most things will be hard. The server hardly gives encounters where this group isn't optimal. Skills and other things mean nothing because usually a DM isn't around. Even then most DM spice and quests are hardcore crush and again these groups shine still. It's a fact of the game you need certain buffs and tactics which are OOC known. You can't stop casual metagaming on a game like this. It's like quests, once you know them they are very very easy. Randoms are the same way. Sad but true, this isn't PnP it's more of a MMO type PvP server.