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So after a very long long absence from EFU, I've (kind of) returned and have been interested to see how the server is doing. Many things are great. But I see a lot of things we need to improve, and hopefully we'll be working on that, but one thing I do want to mention is:

This apparent playstyle of the collective playerbase cringing away from the harder/more interesting quests in order to dully spam the well-worn road of the less dangerous quests has got to stop.

Sometimes I get the sense that there are players who have practically never ventured out to explore the whole Island, seen some of the crazy hidden stuff scattered around, or even attempted some of our big scary quests...

No DM wants to spice and reward granary over and over again.

Look, if our content is genuinely too difficult, then we should fix it - but I am not so sure that is the biggest problem.

We do want to have some easy things for players to do, things that are quick and close to town and don't require lots of time.

But going out and adventuring should feel fresh and dangerous, and repeating the same quests repeatedly seems like a quick way to just get bored.

If you want to post suggestions or ideas about how to improve this, or explain your own OOC attitude about these sorts of things, then I welcome your input. And in the meantime, I'm going to spend some time going through our systems to dramatically tweak some quest rewards.

Dying is harsh, mang. And people work hard for their levels. Risking that takes some convincing, unless your super prepared.

And some DM's do like their hard-spice. Which a segment of the server adores. Others not so much - but that's understandable, people have different tastes. But essentially I think it's the fear of death.

Pretty much what Barmaid said.

also, I am having fun, and my character doesn't even adventure and avoids conflict :~

Well EFU does have a reputation (and to an extent, reality) of DM quests ranging from ball bustingly hard with cool rewards all the way through to ball bustingly hard with no rewards.

Added to that that there's more than a few quests out in the wider server that either a) require specific groups of competent and forewarned players or b) aren't worth it in a risk/reward sense, it isn't that surprising that people stick to what they know.

That being said however I've certainly learnt something from playing Walt - not dying on EFU is boring as fuck. Go out there and die people, you'll feel bad but not as bad as you will otherwise.

Fun for me comes from interacting and cooperating with other PC's to accomplish goals that can affect the fantasy lives of the server pc's and npc's. I don't generally need to range far for that

Quote from: Pigadig;299053Added to that that there's more than a few quests out in the wider server that [...] b) aren't worth it in a risk/reward sense, it isn't that surprising that people stick to what they know.

I'm wondering which ones you're thinking of.

From my own observations though, I think there's a lack of PCs in-game who are leading expeditions and have a reputation to not backstab, leave people stranded etc.

It might just be me, but when PCs ask to explore some ill-defined area, it may just be an excuse for murder in a disturbingly senseless way, so I'm wary about such things as a player as well.

Personally, it has to do with the very short time I've been having to play. So I generally don't have the time to go out, explore, do a hard quest which takes a good time (and that's good!) and then come back.

Asside from that, I have noticed that it gets much easier when your character has assembled a group of characters he trusts and gets along with. It may well be that there's a bit of an individualist streak recently, which makes it very hard to be able to go out and explore when it is all quite dangerous.

I understand what Howl means... And I felt the same thing just recently. That made me try stuff like leading folks to the Lizards quest in the Morass, take expeditions to sweep random withered places, looking for bounties (although the possibility of finding any is low) and we even took a group to the Trolls quest in the Bogs, one I, having over 3 years of EFU, had never done before, didn't even know how to get there. The other day, I also decided to try GHULA! And of course we lost. Well, it was my first time, and I lost level 8 probably the fourth or fifth time on the same character.
However, in all these examples, at least two PCs fugued in each. Two of them causing players to quit their characters, one of them killed in a DM spice with no reward. I did feel bad every single time anyone fugued when they were with me. Results of all these: Was it worth it? Mechanically: definitely not. Since I usually don't care if the group is optimal, I tend to get drained in supplies that are important simply to keep my character alive. And for the players who fugued/lost their characters, it was definitely not worth it. RP/challange/fun wise: Yes, at least for me. But I understand not everyone that was with me had the same fun. There were people really struggling just to remain alive and at least take a few XP points home, and hoping the withering didn't get out of hand.

So, my suggestion is just... To players: Go try something new! It's hard sometimes... Sometimes it's a gamble...  It's not mechanically worthwhile sometimes... But it can also be an experience to grow as a player, or just have a little extra fun. And to DMs... At least consider a bit more when spicing quest or events... Be a bit more considerate to the value of time people spend playing here, when you decide to spice it up and bring more fun to the player base, try not to actually spoil their fun, some people work hard just to have a few hours of free time to enjoy the server.

Umm, three comments here. No criticism at all is intended, this is just how I feel.

One, I am kind of getting a mixed message here. Recently I made a post about how a particular exploration area was very hard, and the consensus was that it was fine and I should be more careful and better prepared. So, I take the lesson from this that I need level, supplies, buffs and skilled company, which all combine to make me more leery of 'just exploring' -- I really hate finally getting level 7 or 8 and then, BAM, lose a whole week's worth of careful work to a single freak critical or bad decision, either my own or that of a groupmate. And now I get told that I am being too careful? Okay, maybe I am. *sighs and ties on white cloth strip with red sun on forehead* Fuel up my Zero, make sure all the bombs are secure, off I go.

Two, I defy anyone to name a more permanently lethal way to get involved in the server than entering player politics. I have lost more characters to that than anything else, usually fairly successful ones as well. And not having learned my lesson, I am doing that again with my new character. Really, the Sunken Enclave is a cakewalk compared to pissing off the Floating Enclave. I also feel that I that way contribute to make the server a little more interesting, though I may be fooling myself. >.>

Three, I am having fun. Or I would not be here.

That's all.

~tOH.

well... losing levels makes you do that.
my character is stuck at some level range that make it impossible for me to adventure into other quests. added to it there is the difficulty of making her to join into groups to explore. when I have to, I usually must explore alone. what means probably losing another level.

so, when I'm able to, I will try and go for the unusual. but since my last delevelings, I'm not going... and I'm trying to stick where it is safe, trying to interact more and have some share of people's RP time more than questing.

alas, it seems that there is a curse: everytime I get to next lvl, something bad happens and I get killed. I'm now a week on the same low lvl, just RPing and being around with folks. and I'm almost pretty sure that once I advance, something nasty will happen, dragging me down again. so, forget about hard questing for me.

to have a group on which to trust is something that I envy... and the currently playerbase of the Enclave usually isn't available to quest with me... I wonder why.

I'll wander down the same road as everyone else to begin with. The common understanding is that you need a good and reliable group to be optimal for these sort of quests. Which is fine, and I am sure we all get that.

There are a few players that will go out of their way to bring groups of more loosely affiliated characters out to the more dangerous/interesting quest however, simply for the chance to share the sights. What may be an issue in these cases, is that these sorts of groups operate on different schedules and many of the quests require a lot of time spent traveling just in order to reach them. This in turn leaves people short on time or even forced to log out mid-quest once the real fun is supposed to begin.

I would advise rewarding players that make these things happen with a means of reaching remote areas more easily, to encourage more spur of the moment happenings. Teleport for example works great for high level wizards, but something of equal use for this purpose is sorely needed for the other classes. Make it exclusive mistpaths, special sailing or a score of giant eagles. The details I leave up to someone else.

This is just what I've gotten a feeling of lately, perhaps true or not. It is that the playerbase have gotten alot more split up in factions. Factions with rivalry or dislike between them.

For the hard quests in EFU, if you atleast want to go any bit plus on doing it supply wise, you'll need a wizard of some sort. I can't though recall when I last saw a decent level wizard for these high quests, that wasn't in or atleast somehow bound to the Conclave. And as it is now, may people got a horn in the side to the Conclave. This sure has happened before, but just for me it feels like if it is to a larger extent groups that does not work well together, Caermyn/Aberdenn, Order/Conclave, Muster people think as worth for nothing so they stick together...

This causes the good ol' sending for orcs or ToM often not being effective, and then not even attempted. People high enough level not being out on some trip with their own faction just sitting around in town is simply not often available.

The really dangerous quests such as the Sunken Enclave, requires a well prepared team that works well together. Not the rag-tag sending group. I don't really see these well-bound groups as much on the server anymore, not as I remember them during the Dominion days when I and people did these atleast quite often.

Hmmm, I had to think about this for a bit.  I have played a bunch of exploring PCs over the last few years and have found that this aspect of the server is one of the most rewarding.  I have however almost stopped questing.  I am not 100% sure why but I think it is due to the following:

When I quest with a group that I trust, usually that's team nature in my case, I really enjoy it because people are supportive / share supplies / heal each other, etc.  The way any successful group acts and the way that any group that is going to tackle harder quests must act.  When I quest with anybody else, I find that people are much less supportive and therefore less effective as a group which increases the chance of failure dramatically.  Now this may be because I'm not all that great at builds and maybe my characters aren't often all that self sufficient but it is definitely the case.  I can think of a few times over the last few years that this has really come into focus and the group rocked for a month or so, and all was good, outside of that, it's not all the pleasant to quest with strangers.  

As was mentioned in previous posts, the server right now is quite polarized and perhaps that is because it seems to me that most of the playerbase is a member of a faction.  Groups really hate each other IC'ly.  There is no possible way my current PC would quest with a Conclavist or an Ordersman for example.  Contrast this to the way things were a few years ago, I distinctly remember quest trains in the Underdark working together much more and rocking quests.  What's the difference?  I'm not sure.  I'd be happy to brainstorm with someone about it if they wanted.  

Side Note:
One other reason that I almost never quest is that there are plenty of evil enemy undead wandering around the server at all times that pose a challenge and can bring good RP for smaller groups that want to go out and mix it up a bit.  It's fun and it makes great IC sense.

Perhaps the player base could try designing a few more quests again, it would be nice to see some new content and the expect the DM team is very busy so something like that could be cool, give players more of an incentive to go out and explore to find them. I think on efu:m i have done every quest in the module with the exception of class specific quests and I think for the majority of higher end content you need to use your supplies competantly and have a healthy ammount and go with people that you have quested with before and work well together.

Some of the higher end content could do with a few tweaks loot wise to make things more balanced. It is very easy though to repeat the same few quests over and over. I find i do this a lot when my withering points get high and i don't want to stray to far from the Mists etc.

lol why didn't I think about that? Withering has a tendency to push some people towards the (high end) quests within the Mist, when they are too withered to step outside and too poor/unable/unwilling to get cures.

Yeah honestly its the withering. This goes back to the problem of implementation tbh, while it is cool you are basically killing your character slowly if you even try exploring the island. From what I've seen on a few occassions people have literally ran back to the mists after doing a quest ((gnolls)) with little to no rp along the way.

It really needs changing or for some sort of actual protection to appear so people don't have to worry about the withering so much as the monsters that infest the island.

While on the topic of having fun there is one thing that is starting to get to me, efum is kind of small. :S

Grey Pebl has literally pulled people off the streets to go to unexplored regions of Ymph and it was met with great enthusiasm by all. So it's not really about people not enjoying the walk, that much is clear.

What's stopped me from going lately (rare as it was that I could be online) was that the Withering progresses at a rate that I really want to pick my moments carefully to go do interesting stuff, instead of doing casual exploration strolls the way he used to. It's simply very taxing at the point I reached (and, rightfully so).

I can imagine the same goes for other players out there.

Walking around and discovering secrets of Ymph, although your character is not focused around that, then RPing with people along the way, while your character withers and die, vomits and slowly turns into a zombie, is not entirely desirable. And it makes little sense IC, too. Imagine you would be in the situation of that PC. Turn into a zombie in return for knowing some hidden lore of Ymph or talk to people about stuff you could talk nicely in a misty, wither-free area? No thanks.

Withering is a nice flavour to the background of the server, but it is the ultimate thing that sets boundaries for certain PCs and makes them unwilling to go further or explore. And it's not some sort of OOC cowardice. Those PCs just don't want to die. You can't tell players to "be brave" and ignore the personality they set for their characters. Even those adventurers/mercenaries won't go out and explore or do the hard quests if they feel there is not some sort of profit in it for them.

Without suggesting anything, exploration and hidden quests would be far more desirable without the withering.

The problem is that players really do want to have fun and they are going to optimise their time to do so. I'm coming back after several months away and really don't want to keep getting killed biting off more than my PC can chew. I want supplies to be able to do interesting things like explore and pay people to pursue plots. I don't want to always be hovering at L6-7 stony broke because any time I stick my neck out, I get my head cut off. It's very easy lose all your levels and supplies if you don't ensure your team's up to whatever you're taking on. When this happens it's a fun-killer. I love the Char Advancement Bonus for L6 and wish there were more ways to get resources without hitting the same old grind. On that note, props to whoever thought up the shipwrecked crates.

The thing about the high level quests is that you can't do them without an optimal team. It's why I never make deliberately weak "RP" builds because doing so cuts me out of the RP to be gained by exploring the server or challenging the tough quests. EfU is harsh, and you need good allies to hit the dangerous bits. The quest balancing system doesn't care if you're bringing a L8 loremaster with 0 combat skills or a L8 minmaxed Fighter. I don't want to keep hitting Goblins, I want to find the secrets hidden in the esoteric quests! I want to poke around in the distant reaches. But if I don't have the supplies, classes or levels to avoid dying to Withering/Vines/Quest Problem Requiring X, I can't do it. If I take a risk in PVP or a DM quest, people notice and it moves a story. Most quests affect nothing, they're a machine that spits out resources and entertainment. I prefer to save my luck for where it'll do something interesting, regardless of whether I win or lose.

There's also the problem that the set of PCs who can do a quest is limited by stuff like "I can't work with the NPC's organisation" or "I can't enter Conclave Lands/Old Stones etc". I'd further agree that Conclave pursuit of Wiz/Sorc PCs is reducing the number of those we see outside their ranks, and that high level quests expect you to have high level buffs.

Ideas I think might help:

• Changing high level quests to not be limited by allegiance. The best example is that Johannes wrote an incredible, story driven quest in Old Stones that loads of PCs have never been anywhere near because they can't go there. 3-6 quests in restricted areas are cool. High level ones just favour elite crushteams of that faction.
• Cap respawn XP loss at 1 Level or something. Controversial, I know, but I can think of few positive points of losing a whacking 1/3 of your XP. It's especially damaging when it stops you being able to quest with your higher level allies, so you go on the easy route again. If PVP or perma happens, it happens. However, being driven off a PC by a fugue spiral is a crap end to a story and puts people off taking risks with quests. If the burden of XP loss is lessened, taking those risks becomes a more enjoyable idea.
• Give high level quests more reliable rewards. Random super powerful items are lovely, but PCs need a way of getting necessities like Healing/Gold/Blurs. If high level quests reliably provide these, they become a better choice than spamming the easiest ones you can do. See why ToM is popular even though it can have considerable risks.
• Disperse the reward throughout the quest. One thing I love about Coral Cove is that good loot chests are all the way through and you can even make a profit if you have to give up halfway in. That way if you aim high and miss, you have something to show for it.
• Fewer instakills or required classes. Iron Nails was avoided because everyone knew that one false move, lag or lack of a good rogue would TPK the entire party off one unremovable trap. Another quest pretty much requires that you knew OOC to prep elemental damage buffs. Pressure and challenge is great fun in a quest and lets you respond. Quests where the risk is death spells or uber crits tend to be metagamed or avoided as you can't respond to the danger, it just happens. Pressure from being outnumbered is fun. Random things that'll blow you dead are not.
• Chances to rest inside quests, at a cost. Often quests are avoided because it's impossible to provide sufficient buffs to last through it and it's not worth flinging supplies at the problem. An example would be a choice of paths in a hard quest. One leads to an armoury, the other to a bunkroom. A low level or hard pushed team would take the chance to rest. One that's doing well would pass it up for more reward.
• More intense, short quests. We don't all have the time to take on Hive, Sunken Enclave etc. Purple Crystals and Shadow canyon are favourites of mine as rare cases where offensive spells are actually optimal.

I am aware some of those come with their own problems, which is why I tried to come up with a number of thoughts to mull over. I really would like more chance to take on the cool stuff without knowing that it'll just jeopardise my goals or kill my PC. I went at the Ooze Tomb on Friday without the "required" buffs and it was crazy. I had a great team and it was some nail-biting RP responding to the Oh Shit Moments, but without the usual buffs it was bound to leave me worse off. That's not something you can keep doing if you want to get anywhere on a PC. I don't want everything on EfU to be easy, but I want to have the opportunity to take on the hard stuff and win without needing to grind.

[COLOR="Red"]tl;dr[/COLOR]
PCs grind for the supplies they need to do anything more exciting like exploring, major quests and PVP. If you would like to see PCs do stuff that's more of a big deal, provide options that don't require taking the easy road or having an optimal team. It's no secret that successful groups more often than not fuel themselves with efficient quest trains so they can afford the big stuff.

Another idea regarding the withering-

For some quests it seems thematically right that perhaps there'd be an altar/sacred brew/something that can lessen your withering to an extent at the end, as part of the reward for taking on this challange in a highly withered area.

I had typed up a bit long post but it boiled down to 'try to be as inclusive as you can be for various quests, don't just clique up.'

Including people is always good.  Give a showcase for how badass you are by crushing beefy monsters in front of them, and highlight your awesome roleplaying skills to those who otherwise wouldn't see you.  Trust me, it can be fun to do, and is awesome to see.  Particularly if you're jaded by the grind.

Quote from: Nuclear Catastrophe;299085'try to be as inclusive as you can be for various quests, don't just clique up.'

^ That, especially including people from early on in the lower level quests, its good practice for when you do decide to tackle the harder challenges. IC co-ordinating goes a long way as well. I like to shout stuff at people when they should be flanking etc and they're trying to take on five giant monsters.

I agree with you there Nuke, and recently ended up having to split a party into 2 groups because we tried to take 6 of us into the mushroom grove quest :D. The trouble is there are a fair few quests where if you do the fun thing and bring a horde of PCs, you will kill off everyone because of scaling or need a truly excellent team to deal with the extra enemies. I would love to be able to bring an 8-man team on Oozes without it turning into the Charge of the Light Brigade, or a full pick-up group on ToM without half of them being useless due to narrow passageways.

If DMs are going over quests, I would suggest including ways for large parties to make the most of their numbers. If more of the loot is on monster drops than chests, that's one way to make the quest scaling to large parties worth it. Another is to fiddle with the layout a bit to ensure that everyone can be useful. Quite a few quests have a single narrow route through where all that a big party does is form a danger when the 2 PCs at the front try and retreat. As an example, an full team on Granary is great fun, but a full team on the poisoned well quest is both more dangerous and less interesting for a lot of the party that are stuck in a queue.

Quote from: Pigadig;299053That being said however I've certainly learnt something from playing Walt - not dying on EFU is boring as fuck. Go out there and die people, you'll feel bad but not as bad as you will otherwise.

QTF so hard. I was level 9 for a while, and all I did was walk around in the Withered lands and do herbalism. Don't get me wrong, both are fun, especially just walking right past huge groups of undead while in stealth because lolranger, but now that I'm questing again, it's a lot more fun. I'm doing more interesting things, even if it is all scripted.

As for the more difficult, higher level quests, I'm unfamiliar with the more notorious ones such as Sinister Enclave and Zaturo's Ascent, and have no idea what the difficulty is like. Other ones, like the Morass Lizardfolk quest, scale pretty weirdly, and can get exponentially more difficult the more people you have, so that can also turn people off to quests as well.

Once I get level 8 back, though, I have every intention of running the vision quest up in the Unyielding Pass. So there's one quest gonna get done!

Back when I played last, I was perma-dying a LOT. I would kind of just breeze through newbie quests until I was level 6, tackle some tougher quests until 7, work with whoever on whatever until I was 8 while simultaneously working hard on whatever I made the character for. Once I was 8, questing was done for me, as death would mean going back down to level 6, and 8 is a very comfortable level to be at (if I ever hit 9 it is off of DM XP).

I don't know about other people's preferences, but I'd rather be out raiding Mistlocke than raiding the Coral Raiders, or defending the Unyielding Pass from Conclavist/Numinous Order scum than defending Dead Orc Pass from orc scum, or enslaving savage pygmies instead of enslaving those kids at the end of the snake quest.

People quest to get to higher level, to get gear and supplies. Once they get that, they stand to gain relatively little and lose a lot if something goes wrong. It's just funner to go out and do the things you made your character to do (dominate the world, convert the masses, mug people, spy on your enemies, uncover ancient secrets, etc.) rather than go out and do some quest that, however epic it may seem, has most likely been done by someone else at some other point in time and however fun it is, isn't truly an accomplishment (unless you do something crazy like solo Sinister Enclave or whatever that quest was that Thomas' Orderswoman went on).

I like the idea of shorter more intense quests, as I often play during the night/evening after school, and then I am often tired. Long quests are taxing.

I think that several points come together here:

Quote1. Certain quests within Mistlocke pay quite well gold and supply wise, while many of the quests outside of town already can cost supplies getting there. A good group will still profit from them greatly, but some random folks will have hell of a hard time doing this stuff.

2. The same quests within town mentioned above can get you to 8 quite easily while filling your bag with general supplies. So some people might just say: Ok, why risk my life to hard spawns, the withering and possibly other players out of town when I can safely powergame to pvp-heaven sitting comfortably in the square.

3. The withering. While it isnt that hard to treat once you have understood certain things about it, it is still discouraging to endure it as someone who already got problems surviving without it. Some people are happy to buy 2 blurring pots or to get to lvl6, now think of paying 150-300 gp just to leave town regulary or losing 150 xp every time you cure yourself. To most veterans this sounds easy, but it isn't for guys new to the server or people coming back from a long hiatus I am pretty sure. Folks struggled in EfU, folks struggled in EfU:A... and EfU:M hasnt become easier, just that we have a powerful curse on top now.

4. A general angsty mindset. I dont know who it wrote, but oocly awaiting that some sendings are a trap isn't going to increase your fun. If your character would go you go, pretty simple. If your character is a craven who has seen several muggings, well best hide behind the skirts of a barmaid (I know one who will likely enjoy more attention).

Well, I can't come up with a way to solve it, but I know that I am enjoying myself right now. And that is mostly due to being out there and encountering all the little surprises, be it something I havent found in all my time or encountering someone out in the wilds, be it friend or foe (which indeed has become rarer compared to EfU:A, despite or maybe even because of a more centralized player population).

Obviously reducing rewards for quests in town and buffing those out of  town would be a way, but it likely would raise some balance problems as a certain group  of characters would now be even better supplied than before.

Quote from: Damien;299072Yeah honestly its the withering. This goes back to the problem of implementation tbh, while it is cool you are basically killing your character slowly if you even try exploring the island. From what I've seen on a few occassions people have literally ran back to the mists after doing a quest ((gnolls)) with little to no rp along the way.

I honestly see no IC reason whatsoever to linger any longer in Withered land than you have to. Doing so would be akin to nuclear waste cleanup workers standing in the hot zone around a recent meltdown and decide to sit down, dig out the playing cards and take it easy for a while. I admit I do not know very much about the procedures involved in this but I would be rather surprised if that was common practice.

This is a problem that has been bothering me a great deal recently, it’s a problem that has brought me close to quitting a few times.

This is something that barely scratches the surface, of what is weakening what EFU is, and draining not only mine, but also other long term player’s fun factor.

While it has been said, that older players should be showing new players the ropes, I think that with the current lay out of the server and the general mentality of “I don’t want to die” it is becoming increasingly frustrating and making it nearly impossible to try and spark life into the new players.

QuoteFirstly Quests

EFU M is dramatically failing on the quest front, not because the quests are too hard, not because they are too easy. It boils down to something far more simple, location.

The Hub of our server is a small town, and while it is an interesting dynamic area it should not be the place where all pc’s can get everything they need up to level 8. Pc’s are not forced to leave the town, they are not forced to take risk, they can achieve everything they need. Gold, potions, xp, loot, there is no drive, no spark that people would have seen on EFU-A. Pc’s wont randomly come across other pc’s from the more evil setting. Bandits will find their marks, but instead of being around the same level and equally equipped they will instead be forced to fight high level high stocked and well equipped pc’s.

On EFU-A some of th greatest rp instances I have ever been involved in, where at low level. Where pc’s came across other pc’s by pure coincidence heading towards mid level quests, fights ensued, hostages where taken, and conflicts that rocked both sides of the docks and dominion became legendary.

My solution to this, would be to simple move the quests. On efu-A the lizards quest was well known as being a fun quest to take. Limited, or so people thought to the dominion. Pc’s often allied with the docks pcs took this quest and met them down beneath the city, Oldstones has much the same type of quest. In my opinion it should be moved, to a more neutral destination, which requires traveling too, but keeping the same quest giver location.

Muskroots apprentice- This a rewarding quest, XP wise and potion supply wise, it also offers some gold.  It does not need to be in Mistlocke, it is just another reason for PC’s to stay within Mistlocke and not leave the town. It could, in the very â€"least- Be moved to the outskirts of the forbidden forest. My personally believe, is that it should have the same distance as perhaps Harpies, a same level length quest which is now rarely used because of this and the next quest I am about to mention.

The well- This quest, is quite simple one of the most spammed quests I have ever heard of, it is a quest that grants massive amounts of XP at level 7, pays well and also provides a good supply of potions. Its location however is horrendous. Why should our new players explore and try other quests when we have this sitting right inside the town? Move it from the town much like Muskroots apprentice.

Some of you will be up in arms at my simple suggestion, but I will take this moment to make note. I am not asking Granary or any of the level 5 quests to move. In fact they are fine, perfect and ideal for pcs to use, and I have no problem with them at all.

QuoteThe Noob run
A while ago it was mentioned, that EFU-M would be transforming its noob run, requiring players to explore more as they enter the server. This, in my opinion is a mistake, quite frankly a level 3 character can easily die while leaving the town. It’s this that forces new players to stay inside, to quest in safety and to only leave when they are level 8.

It’s time to return the old style of noob run, to give players a nice boost at the start so that they are ready for the proposed changes above. So that they have the gold to buy some nicer items, items that will let them live when they do venture towards the new locations of the quests.

QuoteQuest crushing

New and less experienced mechanical players often talk about how there are players who simply “crush” quests. Who know exactly whats needed to make an optimized party to break down any quest in EFU, to get the maximum benefits from it and level to absurd levels with insane supply.

It’s true, and its not something I agree with, but can we stop it? No. But, we can even the player field. While we do have players who love to relentlessly crush quests, we also have players who can crush them but are bored by the lack of excitement. Some of you are too afraid to look into the harder quests because you are afraid to die. The fact is, most quests on EFU can be completed by 1 competent melee fighters, backed by a group of misfits.  They are not that hard, you just need that one player to guide you.

I have spoken to a few of the older players who think like me, and we are more than willing to take new players and show them the ropes. To take them to those dangerous places on the server and say “this, this is why I fell in love with EFU” to share those experiences that we remember and reminisce about on irc.

I currently have an advertisement ic and ooc for melee fighters to come and take part in an awesome plot, awesome concept and to not sit back and watch, but be the fighter and do the great physical feats some of EFU-A’s greatest pcs where known for.

I can’t promise you that you won’t die, I can promise you one hell of a ride, which is what EFU is about. All characters die, what they did between creation and the fugue is the fun part.

Personaly I feel like many of the "new" players here, are more focused on how their character develops in regards to other characters, making friends and the likes. Instead of seeking lore/danger/glory. Im not saying its bad or good. Its just different.

Personally, I don't want more people doing the high level quests. I don't want the overall item level to inflate yet again, further widening the gap between lower and higher level PCs. I like the fact that those areas are special and difficult, and that the "endgame" content of EfU:M is still on the distant horizon.

(On a related note: I still haven't gotten bored with running the granary quest, so I really can't empathize with the feeling that it's not fun to spice it. What if some PCs went in there only to find a war breaking out between the Mole Tribe and some Urdlen gnomes? It's a bunch of holes in the ground. The possibilities are endless, and could lead to some interesting plots.)

Everything in the server is designed to make PCs gravitate toward level 7. Rather than opening the door to the higher level content, which really isn't closed to begin with, I'd like to see more quests designed for PCs who have reached that plateau of stability. That, to me, is where you put all the really high risk / high reward stuff that can either crush a PC mercilessly or get them over the hump into the high levels. If you lose level 7, it's not that big of a deal to get it back. It brings the frustration coefficient down to manageable levels and still leaves PCs with the allure of ascending to something greater.

EDIT: I'm having lots of fun, by the way. Thank you.

Diminishing returns for quest spamming was once suggested.

I have a different take to many of the posters here.
 
I and a friend not long ago rolled up two Oghmites with the express concept of getting out and seeking the Lore of the isle.
 
We made sending a little while back to explore the underdark (we were mostly lvl 6's with one or two lvl 7's).
 
We had a bunch of people turn up and come with us.
 
We killed a bunch of tough UD critters, got a tiny amount of xp, barely a single potion, got to the Deep Underdark slowly climbing our way down. Having "mapped" our route we came home, RP'ing all the way...
 
We had fun. But for RL getting in the way we would have done it again and gone further last weekend.
 
We will certainly be going again, and I bet we will get a bunch of people come with us, some allies, some people we barely know.

"On efu-A the lizards quest was well known as being a fun quest to take.  Limited, or so people thought to the dominion. Pc’s often allied with  the docks pcs took this quest and met them down beneath the city,"

This is actually something I find kind of stupid, yes it's good to try the harder content but stay in character whilst doing it.  It makes very little sense for someone who despises someone else to randomly decide to assist them.

I dont want to sidetrack this, but thats a narrow minded view. Im not talking sons of sabuth aiding stygians here.

The core message here is, move quests to create more conflict, to make players take more risk.

To be honest. Its too easy to get to level 8 now for anyone. (despite what people might say) All you have to do is not die and survive for 1-2 weeks going on the occasional quest.  I would say the level gap on EFU:M is significantly closer then it has been in the entirety of EFU. Level 8+ is still a toughy and sometimes I am just in the mood for a quest and might go out with a group of allies or if i need some supplies but like a lot of people have said a big factor that plays into it is Withering/Location (A lot of the time i try to get groups to move quickly/run to reduce how badly affected by withering you are) Some flavourful withering reduction items could be cool on some quests like someone suggested.

EFU:M is very consumable heavy which I both welcome and dislike, but some higher end quests that have been around before EFU:M do require a little attention. My example would be Corals/Sinister Enclave are not very well balanced in my opinion with Risk/Reward ratio whereas I have found that Kants Realm the oppersite it can be far more rewarding then risk involved. Just minor tweaks really. I like the idea of quests that get repeatedly done having reduced XP but then that punishes everyone even if they do it say once in their PC's career if it was possible to limit quests per week or something that may see a few more PC's get out and look for other quests beyond the Mists.

Also someone mentioned limitations on quests, Conclave/Order/Watcher/Stargazer quest givers etc... This also means that you end up spamming a lot of the same quests. Neutral quests givers give a wider variety to the community to choose from. (My most hated one is being a foe of the Conclave and not being able to do Kants as a spellcaster)

I could proberbly go on writting about this for another few hundred pages but i expect all the points will be covered eventually.

QuoteThis apparent playstyle of the collective playerbase cringing away from the harder/more interesting quests in order to dully spam the well-worn road of the less dangerous quests has got to stop.

Same thing happened in the UD. The triad of Loot / XP / Golds from a known quest train is always eventually optimized so a duo / trio of PCs can do it to maximize gains, and thus seek after Teh Epic. Got to have those consumables to spam - becuase let's face it, no one wants to be the consumable-less dead corpse in the wake of the Orog (UD) / Wild-Orc (EFUA) / Mist Bandit (EfUM) epic flood of baddies vs town.

Also, I think the current setting sort of forces casual players with limited time to hit the local quests more often. The gains from wandering farther out diminish when you don't have a cleric pal or lots of consumable drop remove curse items to combat witehring, or if you don't have 20min to get to a really cool quest (or a quest group that knows enough to get there alive)

that said, the current setting has a LOT of pros for it - much more refined a set up than the old days.

-Beggsy

Added: Cake is awesome.

I enjoy the harder quests myself, even though I know it is sometimes risky.  My problem lately has been that after being gone for several months, I recently made a new nature PC.  After logging on a handful of times and doing one quest, I am almost to level 6 with no allies, and basically starting gear thanks to the game spitting out 40 xp more often than I light up a smoke.  This makes it nearly impossible to go out and try something more difficult, knowing full well I don't have the supplies to take care of myself, nor the allies to aid me along the way.

(for the tl:dr ... most of what I'm about to say has already been said in one manner or another)

Part of the problem is that we are so factionally polarized.  I'll use my PC as an example.  She's a Watcher.  In general speaking terms, that means grouping up with Caermyn, Order, and Conclave are a no-no.  Depending on which side the Muster is on, is whether or not we'll play nice with them.  So that leaves Aberdenn, nature folk, Delving or the random unaffiliated PC.  Which at any given time there are few online when I am.   Well, few that ICly I would know or trust enough to do anything with.  Yes, I know the quick answer is, "well go get to know them".  Honestly, I've bent her concept quite a lot to make the IC friends I do have.  Had I stuck hard-line to my concept, I'd have retired her long ago.  So no, it's not a quick easy answer.  IMO it has to make sense ICly to do certain things.  Right now, in terms of story arc, few stay unaffiliated for long.  They are drawn into a side quickly.  Which then limits what ICly you may be willing to do.

With that being true, wandering around isn't necessarily good for your survivability.  Yes yes, the DMs want risk-takers.  What constitutes risk for one is not necessarily risk for another and vice versa.  While one player/PC might go "pfft, grow a set and stroll about withered area smashing shit to get to quests and explore places", another player/PC just can't or won't.  Be it for IC or OOC reasons. (as an aside, that attitude annoys the unholy hells out of me and really sometimes make me wonder why the less than stellar of us bother or are tolerated, but I digress).  Again, I'll use my PC as an example.  For her, for her build, and for her player, the trip out to WyldWater is a big risk.  To the other players/PCs I drag along with me, it may be a cake-walk.  But for her it's anything but.  In that scenario, I literally put my PC's life and safety in the hands of the people I'm with.  Which touches back to the problem of factional divisions.

And then we come to the Withering.  For some, it may not be anything to sweat, but for others it's a real presence that needs to be watched.  Dependent on your story, staying unwithered may be somewhat of a necessity.  Which means a relatively constant investment of resources.  Which are sometimes hard to come by, again dependent on your PC.  And as I mentioned in my other post, at one point we were told we didn't respect the Withering enough, so things were put in place so we would.  

With all that being true, it doesn't surprise me to see people huddled in Mistlocke or doing the same boring quest trains.  The risk/reward is often not worth it to go beyond that.  Or there is often times just not a reason you can make up to go to far beyond Mistlocke.

Me personally?  I'd love to see more of the server.  It's in part what my PC was made for.  But the right elements have to be in place or it's certain death.

p.s. (would you believe that after almost 5 years on the server, there's still quests I've never done in part because of the reasons mentioned above)

I echo some of xxWhisperingWindsxx.  I too have had to go outside my concept a bit just to have some interaction and questing.  On the few occasions this char has answered sendings from other chars I don't know ICly or OOCly, it has been disastrous.

I also accept that this is a hazard I face for my choice in character and I will continue to play him as I like.  Lus has a few humans he sort of likes but for the most part I won't dare head off into the nasty without proper company.  If I can get with a group of players/chars I/Lus can rely on, I will be all over the archipelago.

I must make an addition to my post (had a bit of a "forest through the trees" moment when typing the rest of it up) ...

While everything I said is true, there is the simple fact that if I weren't having fun I wouldn't play.  Yes, I'd still love to see more of the server, and within the confines of the story I've chosen to play, I do what I can.  I do stretch her story line when I can, and because of that she's taken some dramatically different turns I would never have anticipated.  I tend to play in a manner in which I let the server affect my PC.  Which to me is at least half the fun.  It's also opened up some great stories that I wouldn't have ever known.  

When I want to do "smash, thump, grab" I fire up the PS2 or log in a wee lowbie alt to run the beginner quests for some mindless smash.

People just run quests for resources. Just finished dying for a second time in an hour, back to level 4, from nearly being level 7. All this maps you want to do, is just grind until level 8, before setting foot out of Mistlocke.

That being said, the first time I died, I didn't really mind, it was kick-ass as hell, but dying due to a lack of invis, on a wizard, and being insta-gibbed by anything unless you have 32847923874923742 potions of heal/invis gets fucking stupid, after a while.

I have found that fear can only limit you in regards to going out there and trying things.

People often die from hubris, more so than anything else. There's always bad luck involved, timing and jolly meeting of those awful coincidences.

However, these few things I personally feel and see happening at times are what limits people:

• People do not either succeed or do not use effort or time to gather people to join them in grand expeditions
• After experiencing unfortunate event, they fear to try again. However, in every failure there's room for improvement, and it can be brought through your character as a good RP - Punish that guy who didn't want to heal you and just stood in the back idling?
• Hubris - More than often folks simply die because they get way too overconfident or ignore variety of factors that can change from usual. Those parties of two or three don't always work out, eh?

Now, there's always different situations. Some are not good mechanically, some have slower machine/bad connection, or anything in between. However, I'm sure that many of you fell down on bikes when you were younger, and majority probably got back at it after they got over the fear of falling again.

All to all - if you have hard time in something, you can try to bring it in game. You don't need to let it brew and boil in your head or outside the screen - throw it in there, through your character. Try to change the situation in character and try again.

Succeed in what you failed before by finding out what you need to do that.

Paha Poika's advice is really excellent and people should consider it carefully.  One of the most liberating things on EfU is to realize it doesn't matter too much if you fugue.  You can pursue most agendas easily without levels beyond five, with the obvious exception of being a badass.  Since most people do not ever have a chance to look badass just looping the same three quests over and over and occasionally emoting, "Grr, I deserve more stuff" this is probably not an issue.

You don't need to be reckless, and that's not what I'm saying, of course.  But EfU is a lot more fun when you're doing dangerous stuff.  Every single one of my PCs that succeeded did so off the back of dozens of tallies on my fugue plane punchcard (one of my PCs even had such a thing for a shortwhile, thanks to some April Fool's shenanigans).

I think there's a lot of fear of fugue visits that shouldn't really have a place on EFU.  Yeah, they're bad, but you can get back to 6 in a day anyway.

Similarly, the worst consequence of a PC permanently dying is missing out on whatever cool scene you had planned for their likely death.  Since every PC eventually dies or fades into obscurity, what people should be aiming for first and foremost is to make a memorable scene.

Honestly, if a group was running a difficult quest, or one I've never been on before, I'll generally tag along if I've got the time and nothing against it IC, I don't honestly care all that much about dying, see point below.

Seeing as I regularly do curse removal, losing xp from fuguing doesn't really scare me, it's the reorganising inventory after death.  There is nothing to me, that I loath then to have go through and resort my pack then having to do it twice in one sitting.

Supplies, gold, xp all come and go really, it's more a matter of not having the time or simply not having the IC inclination to go along, when there is nothing more that I want to do then go, do some dangerous or different quests (so long as they don't involve perm death, I've a dislike for such most of the time, though I enjoyed my last one).

That might just be me though.

Don't get me wrong, nothing i enjoy more than going out and discovering something purely epic with an equally epic challenge, heck i even went into the soul archive for a quest when told chances of death are high :P i practice alchemy on a daily basis despite how many levels ive lost to failed experiments, i go do gnolls and ToM knowing that everytime i go despite how big a group i lose a level or two(when higher level). BUT i cannot stand going out and adventuring the isle, simply because its not just a level or two, its not just dieing and getting back up. You die out there no ones coming to save you likely(specially if evil). There is no respawning due to the fact you will just get ganked again once you get back up. Your only option is to log off and wait for a DM to move the enemys, or to respawn and lose all your items.
 
Now i understand needing a group a big one at that maybe. But if they all die, to some crazy assassin vines spawns like i have who appear out of nowhere with no warning and paralyze your whole group its all over. It would take a legitely high level group to go adventuring out there, and its not easy getting high level either >.> i could play it 100% safe and no more alchemy, do only the easiest quests every reset grind that xp to 7th or 8th and be completely fine to g o adventuring in a group, but i wont. Its not fun and its poor RP. But hey, everyone has their own methods :P
 
In the end, my suggestion: if you want the majority of people(majority is low level) to go on those hard adventures, you gotta make the reward always worth the risk. the risk is pretty high, but what is the reward for uncovering and exploring those ancient ruins. I once encountered a powerful demon, who was played by a DM. It was some pretty dramatic and fun roll play and in the end kayla was dead and vilindilieth was sworn to her service through a blood oath. Though i managed to get kayla out, well a piece of her. And had to pay 4k to see her raised. I got nothing out of that adventure except loss.. i was bummed out, but at least had fun. Still a little cool thing would have been nice to have from such a risky roll play.

"You can pursue most agendas easily without levels beyond five, with the obvious exception of being a badass."

Well, that's true, you can do a lot with a low level PC that's a good organiser, as RwG and his revolving door to Kelemvor prove. However, there's also the desire to be well armed enough to stop a badass PC from rolling your group, as "A bunch of low level mates" isn't as good a resource as one really tough PC unless you get the drop on them or are very well organised. On a similar note, when a crazy DM events turns up, you want to feel you can actually get through it with your PC in one piece.

The thing is, I would really rather go questing because it's fun and be able to get resources another way. I don't want to be thinking "*sigh*, better go and spam ToM so that we've got CSW so that the next time we run into Joe Barb he won't crush us". Back when random encounters were more common and profitable, I ran a PC who managed to get much of his money out of locating and breaking into them.

As a suggestion to get PCs out in the wilderness and dangerous areas, introduce reasons to do so that don't require a DM. Players know OOC what is where, so there's not that much mystery in exploring and less entertainment value as a result.It's especially true if you've found server lore that requires a DM to get any more out of in order to investigate the place.

I know EfU deliberately makes wilderness monsters have poor drops so people don't "farm" them, but there are other slight incentives to patrol places. The randomly spawning fruit trees, random encounters, hero mob loot. I'd suggest putting more rewards or consequences for exploring in, so that without a DM you can feel like you have still accomplished something. If you keep exploring but never get any response to it it can feel like wasted effort. On the other hand if you play a wilds PC, the resource gathering quest does get yu going looking for stuff:

• Things outside the safe areas that offer good Withering reduction and are worth heading out to find.
• Stuff that will either grant decent XP or faction or general rewards to kill, so it's worth getting a squad to go look for. Like the Muster Bounties but more general. Possibly something tied to the Withering that will reduce the Withering level of an area for the reset if killed?
• Recycle some removed quests to ones that start in Random Encounter Areas.
• Herb plants that respawn like fruit trees do, to reduce reliance on gardens that just get robbed, and encourage exploring for resources.
• More skill checks or information placeables. If you can get information out of a placeable without a DM present, you can feel like you're getting somewhere, even if you have to come back with an expert, which is more RP. Especially if it's not just Lore you need but Search, Strength to move a boulder etc.

If the server offers things to do as a group that aren't always in the same location, it can break a rut.

Quote from: Egon the Monkey;299275"You can pursue most agendas easily without levels beyond five, with the obvious exception of being a badass."

Meh. I got told that it was my own fault Kara got invis ganked and executed because there were defenses against an invis gank. Defenses I normally used but no longer had available due to level loss. Sometimes I feel that getting involved in server and PC conflict with a non-badass character is suicide. You will forgive me for not being eager to experience level loss after losing two characters to an invis gank they could no longer defend themselves against. (Two completely separate events, mind you, and the older one was totally awesome because it was committed by a single badass character in the face of Stygians, Militia and half a dozen other PCs.)

My point being, no matter what people claim, if you try to 'rock the server', levels will matter.

Just don't worry so much about dying! I die all the time, and have died in a lot of the same situations as the old hack, and I can tell you it's great fun.

I think very few people die to invis ganks, and when they do, usually they have a lot of warning and a few options to not die if they back down from pursuing PvP conflict with the ganker.

Quote from: SkillFocuspwn;299291Just don't worry so much about dying! I die all the time, and have died in a lot of the same situations as the old hack, and I can tell you it's great fun.

Really? *scratches head* I didn't even notice your characters dying there. I honestly thought I was alone both times.

I'm sure he meant 'same types' of situations, you goon! :D

I didn't read over any of the replies, but I will say that the high-end quests have not been overly rewarding for quite a while. Many of them did not change for years now, excluding lesser XP rewards or other "nerfs", while the overall strength of PCs has gone down. (Fewer levels in general, less "loot").

Furthermore, doing these quests did often draw the attention for spice and other things, and that in itself was often even worse due to the openly admitted fact that rewards were less common these days, more supplies were drained, and xp was rather sparsely handed out. Overall, you often lost more than you gained by doing them while also risking losing levels on your character, something that can mean weeks of playtime for some people.

These factors created the "grind" mentality that made people feel safe in doing the quick and easy quests rather than getting out there and doing things that are more dangerous.

After reading this thread a few times, I think it's important to point out that not everyone has the same idea of what's fun. I've seen several people in this thread try to persuade others to adopt their style of gameplay, and you know what? If I didn't think what I was already doing was fun then I wouldn't be doing it.

I'm also not the only one who is getting some mixed messages here. We're told on the one hand that DMs don't want to see optimized builds, then on the other hand we're told that we need to be taking on the hardest quests on the server. We are told to play our weaknesses, but then we get punished mercilessly for having those same weaknesses. The PCs who are "optimized for role-play" are always the first ones to fugue on quests, and usually the first ones to abandon a PC after their 10th justifiably frustrating death.

My answer to this has been to simply do what's fun for me and ignore what everybody else wants. I would love to, for instance, take an asthmatic pegleg priest of Oghma into the Underdark to research Dunwarren, but I also know that a DM's attention is inevitably going to come included with a mob swarm designed to completely wipe my party (EDIT: I don't consider this necessarily a bad thing), with me being the first one to go. As such, my "role-play builds" are always designed to survive, because they have to be.

That's why I think you see a lot of these weaker builds hanging around in town so much. It's a hell of a lot more fun than hanging around in the Fugue.

Hi.

I have been gone for several months from EFU... If I recall correct, the moment I bailed was when Gaeseric took the fall from the cliff. No idea how long ago was that.

Managed to resurface briefly, but I gave up, due to simply lack of time.

Now I'm back, and saw this post, decided to chip in my 2 polish zlotys, eventhough I did not bother to read every single response, so apologies if I will be repeating something.

------------


EFU.. - I don't know, as I have not experienced it other than some brief, insignificant adventures.


------------


EFU:A. - Honestly - I loved EFU:A more than I love EFU:M. I spent so many great moments there that I can not even begin to count them.
Moments of intense laughter, moments of intense fear, moments of true EPICNESS (Caps intended), and a moments when I really, really cried. The kinds of tears that you get when reading/experiencing something profoundly moving from the storypoint of view.

I drew so many inspirations from the amazing storytelling of the DM's (and players) in EFU:A that I have even shamelessly stolen some ideas for my PnP campaigns. Hells, I even ran a whole campaign based on Ymph.


(Not sure if the below is in chronological order, hey, it's been a long ride)

----

I remember the mad adventure Illuminaughty ran for my first PC here, a dwarven cleric with 8 CHA. I had no clue about stuff back then. But the sheer "monthypython-ness" of it blew me off the chair.
Flying Shark Island. He's probably not reading it now, but hey. Thanks man. You are truly sick in the head. In the good meaning of it.

----

I remember my conversation with Craddock as my Cyricist atop the  Ziggurat which I still have screenshots of and treasure every moment of  it. The amount of metaphores, the cloak & dagger "movie-ness" of  it.  Hats of, Caddies.

----

I remember the amazing dialogues I had with Listen in Silence (man, where are you) when playing a duo of Barbarians with MN. Then came Vladislak Charabo and blown me away. I did not have any problem dying with that PC when storming the Ziggurat Gates and several barbarian PC's hitting the RAGE button at the same time. That was EPIC. Caps intended, again.

----

I fell in love with what is commonly considered NATURE on EFU. I apped for a Wild Dwarf and joined the Steward faction and the amount of lore I uncovered, thanks to Howland, thanks to Nuke, thanks to Mort, thanks to Fleeting Heart and thanks to those I can not remember.

It was a constant learning experience, from the EFU-lore point of view. And each tidbit blown my socks off. I remember some white chick who appeared in front of a bunch PC's at the Heart of Winter and I sent a tell to Mort that I'm looking at her true a gem of True Seeing.

Got a response: "You see an ancient dragon, covered in mist, standing in front of you."

I had no OOC knowledge whatsoever of what the G-chick was before that. It was like.. "Oh shit. This is amazing."

Then came Orgeribbit to my Wild Dwarf's life. Man, I learned how to PQ by then. And I also learned MUCH of savoir-vivre from Orgeribbit's player back then (Hats of, buddy). Again, the story blown me away. And I did SUnken Enclave for the first time, spiced too. Amazing place. Did not have time then to uncover the lore buried.. But that came later.

There was Quin Steel. That says it all.

Then came DangerousDan and his whathisname dude who went out on a Tree-Burning spree. Then came an epic crawl to the Underdark to bring Leged back. We crushed the Way, got him back, told him about stuff going topside and he came back with us. We literally RAN up the Way (dont think it took more than 15 minutes to get back up) to make it in time for the event... which resulted in--

-the death of my Wild Dwarf and MN's Forest Gnome. The sheer dramatism of that scene caused me to cry. Good tears. This kind of tears which you cry when you read a profoundly sad and at the same time - good scene.

----

I fell in love with Gazers then. I love these midgets. Whoever came up with the idea of the race as a whole deserves to rest on a tropical island without needing to earn money 'till the rest of his/hers lives.

So I apped for Sardine. Yes, Nuke, I know - I didnt do much at some point aside of crushing Coral Cove over and over and over and over again. But it was FUN. It was more than fun - it was amazing to experience the ridiculous amount of crush a well-balanced team can deliver.
There was the Order vs Nature conflict. There was Johannes and his purple tentacles from outer space. There was Sardine and 'White Beard' alliance (Badcompany, hats off, again) which some people considered as 'forced' and 'OOC' and not making any sense at all. Believe what you will, there was a profound bond back there. And it was amazing.

There was Jeneil - hope the player is still doing well.

There was Kashyapi (you again) and Aieya (whoever you were, I never learned, you were amazing) ... and aside of the truly top-of-the shelf storytelling, which I am not going to remind here- who needs to know, knows - there was also the 'mechanical' part of it - traveling with a friendly PC LORE-MASTER.. able to decipher anything everywhere. Amazing. And again - inspiring.

Yes, there was also Maw'kii. Yes, Griff, I remember you, you retard.

There were so many epic moments on Sardine that I can not even start to list them all, or the forum would run out of HDD space.

Of course, there were many disappointments. And of course, there were EPIC fuck ups on my end, too (or disappointments for the DM crew from my end). Resulting in getting one of my favorite characters retired. I so regret being a dumb piece of shit and stealing that loaf of bread.

----

Jumping through a few PC's (must of course remember boulder-tossing into the face of a prisoner of the Order as Thorgrimm Modruvellir.. Taking part in killing Shevorth (EPIC) - 'The End Run' and so on..)...


.. I come to the Croaking_Opera  - Gaxthoe. My Frog tribe lore-master (inspired by magic mushrooms, shpongle and an insatiable lust for EFU Lore). I had the utmost honor of experiencing the end of EFU:A (and in a sense - having my few cents in actually causing it).

I do not believe there is a font big enough to write "EPIC" about what I experienced on Frog, and trust me - those were not the mushrooms speaking.
The overwhelming amount of Lore uncovered on this PC.. In its' own, shpongly way.. the overwhelming amount of Lore EXPERIENCED on this PC.. Being in the very, very middle of it all..

Well. I do not believe (and I hope to be wrong!) that there will be anything on EFU that can beat this. I urge you to play a gazer, I left a lot on the Gazer forums.

Hell - Frog was the first PC to actually wither before withering was even implemented. How about that, huh?

The only regret I have about Frog, is that I ran out of free time at  some point and never managed to 'finish' the PC and had to disappear  from the EFU world and not see the actual transition from EFU;A to EFU:M - and judging by the screenshots I saw - once again, there's no font big enough to write 'EPIC'.


------------



And then came..


EFU:M. - Well. I could not be as active as I was during the EFU:A times, but I can say a couple things from what I experienced.
The above was gone (after all, it's a new chapter, no?).. but with the EFU:A chapter gone, I think the size of the EPIC font was .. smaller.
Why?


I believe there were several factors at work here:


1.) After the climax of EFU:A, well - it's obvious that things should 'slow' and 'calm' down.


----


2.) Don't get this as an insult or an offense, as I know some people take stuff very personally here (me included), as an assault on themselves-
I believe the focus shifted from the amazing story-telling towards constant mechanical improvement of the setting.

Now - is this a bad thing?
I can wholeheartedly say - yes (though I am not neglecting an AMAZING amount of work and effort done.)
Why?
Because it became sterile as a hospital. Not sure if this is a valid English metaphore (most certainly works in my native scum tongue).
To use an example:
It's like comparing the old TV series "Robin of Sherwood" from the mid-eighties to the BBC TV series "Robin Hood" from 2006.
Because of the focus on all the fancy lights, big boobs, perfect make up, the legend has lost its' magic.

Hope this makes sense.


----


Let's get more mechanical now -
3.) Centralization:  in EFU:M there is one little hamlet where everybody clogs in the square, because:
- it is safe
- there's nowhere else to go (civilization).
- there's no withering (using bold, as I will come back to this later) there

In EFU:A, the 'city' was big. There was the main Zig. There was the the squat. There was the docks. There was the gates. There was so much to do around the city, so many places to hide (esp. when the in-between areas have been added).
In EFU:M we have Mistlocke (and Sis Liman, but screw that, it's far away. And there's withering there too). Mistlocke itself - a tiny hamlet. Which covers a huge area, but in fact - it's much smaller than that. It's just that tiny square surrounded by a bunch of buildings in a huge area.
And well.. That's just Mistlocke. There's nothing else that is 'safe' to go to.


----


4.) Withering:
Yes, the Withering. Amazing concept, amazing idea. Amazing mechanics.
Yet.. implementation of the Withering had a psychological effect on the playerbase. It's this constant SOMETHING VERY BAD [SVB] that hangs above your PC like a dark cloud. It's this SVB which constantly hurts your PC, if you are exposed to it. So it is only natural for the PC's to stay away from it. If one wants to scheme with a bunch of PC's and discuss the plans for taking over Mistlocke or seducing Muskroot - you go to a place where you can safely 'stand' in one spot for 3 hours and RP 'passively'. Without that SVB having constant effect on your PC.

So people go and stay in Mistlocke/Shroud.

It's even worse for some faction PC's - say Stargazers, say some scum who want to set their base of operation for kidnapping virgins in Sis Liman - their faction areas are constantly hurting their PC's. Just chilling there gives that SVB to their PC's. Why chill there, then, if you can chill somewhere without the SVB.

Now - of course there are ways to keep it in check. Hey, I actually play many (most?) 'nature' PC's, so I'm chilling around the Withered areas most of the time. Keeping it at check isn't hard, but it requires a lot of work. It requires resources. It requires time to acquire these resources. And these resources are fastest and easiest acquired through easy quests in areas without the SVB.

So everything goes back to the Withering- scaring the shit out of people. Especially new players.
Boy, I was astounded quite recently, when I rolled out with a group to do the Gnoll quest, and after the completion, the group just RAN back to the Shroud, shouting vague words about SVB.

I think it's unhealthy and the effect it has on people (players, not PC's) is hurting the server.
Solutions? I don't know, really. Push the plots forward. Help/guide folk into finding a cure. Or at least slow it down. Introduce more easy solutions of getting rid of it (or getting immune to it?). No clue.
Withering is a bit of a dead end (apologies, couldn't resist the pun). Pushes back people and stops them from doing, what they want to be doing.
I'd really get rid of it/work some MEGA-PLOT to make the cure happen.

Unless you folks got it all planned out and want it to stay, as you want a full-circle to happen and the next chapter will be called:
Escape TO the Underdark.


----


5.) Conflict. Conflict is good, yes. But I am getting a feeling that somewhere at the end of EFU:A and the whole EFU:M the focus on conflict derailed from 'healthy' conflict to 'conflict at all costs' as it keeps the game running.
Conflict is great, as it makes people gather in groups. Conflict makes that people can sustain themselves with fun without the need for a DM to run an elaborate plot - players do those themselves.
And well - humans like conflict in general (what a retarded race) - as they like to show off. Sports, beating the crap out of another, whatever.
But it's not 'conflict' or 'nothing at all'.
One of the first things I've noticed after I came back was that everyone was going mad talking about 'blood for the tree'.
I went to that tree (Marcail) and thought - hey, fun. I can come here and donate my PC's blood here to heal the island. So I tried that.
 ..

Wait, what?

The tree wants me to PvP people and take their blood? It won't accept free donors?
Eventhough the idea is great, it once again - is 'conflict at all costs'.
Go, children, beat the crap out of as many you can and as often as you can and then bring me their blood.
Sure, might stir some interesting concepts.
Some.

But from the outside, it's like watching Benny Hill being chased around by a horde of people with syringes. (God, I can hear that music in my head now).

Once again - Conflict is good. Forces of Good vs Evil and all the cliches. And non-cliches.
But PC vs PC conflict should NOT be the focus EFU as the whole.
The MEGA-plots should be.
IMHO.


----


... Well, Im being dragged away from the computer now - I might come back and write something more later (just noticed that over an hour passed since I started writing)..

Not sure if you will read this whole, not sure if I wrote BS or not - but this is my perspective.

Also - I spoke only of negatives of EFU;M but that was the idea - it is still an AMAZING setting. But it got derailed a bit . And it feels a bit as a post-modern "everything was already done/said".

I love you EFU. And I missed you much. And yes, Im back. And yes, at some point in near future I might app for a Gazer again.

Peace out.

What I love about EFU is how richly detailed the module is, and the plethora of secrets and lore that are out there if you're paying attention and willing to explore.

What I also like is that the unforgiving death systems makes people behave a little more realistically. You don't want to bring along a dwarf muttering inanely about cyric for fear he might flee at the first sign of trouble, run around in circles attracting more monsters, or back-stab you and take your stuff. And you might not want to explore every foreboding ruin unless you have have a planned expedition. Individually these are both very positive things, in my mind, but the fact death is so unforgiving is almost a guarantee that a lot of the module's content will go unappreciated (much to the dismay of builders, I'm sure). So you end up with the following situation:

1) Groups of higher-level and more established characters, with networks of friends and more connections, are able to go out with well-organized groups and see the world. Even if you don't succeed it can still be a lot of fun:
-Your character gets to interact with people who are meaningful to their story.
-Even if you permanently die, its at least a memorable scene to throw up on the screenshot thread.

2) The greater majority of lesser-etablished characters who will usually adventure with random people end up doing the Poisoned Well. There's not much reason to go out if your expedition has such a small chance of success. No matter how you look at it, its not fun:
-You'll end up losing experience and supplies with no gain.
-You won't learn anything.
-You don't have much time to roleplay or develop your character along the way because everyone is in such a big rush.

Characters do need to lose once in a while, its what makes victory so sweet, but given the current setup it more or less evokes the feeling you've just wasted an hour of your life when an expedition fails.

On the flip side I think if you made losses less punitive, success wouldn't be as rewarding.

Quote from: Starless Night;299328Boy, I was astounded quite recently, when I rolled out with a group to do the Gnoll quest, and after the completion, the group just RAN back to the Shroud, shouting vague words about SVB.

OK. I freely admit that I am hardly the most intelligent person on the planet. Even so, this is the second time I have heard people complain about a group of adventurers which did not wish to:

-- stand around gossiping about inanities while their innards slowly gets turned to mush by the most vicious, unforgiving curse ever heard of

-- lay out a ton of treasure and argue about who gets what, still in the same cursed area, while being vulnerable to 1) hostile adventurers and 2) hostile denizens of the area (assassin vines, stonehand giants, Nightriser patrols, to mention just three potentially lethal threats that can kill most people without breaking a sweat)

I am really sorry but somehow I am not seeing exactly what the intelligent part of the above is, either ICly or OOCly. I have played characters who were less concerned about the curse than others. But conversely, I also feel I should be allowed to play a character who is terrified of it to the point that she blows all her gold on cures as soon as she starts showing even mild symptoms of Withering. And I do not see how it makes me a bad roleplayer when said character prods her group into moving because she is afraid of the curse and does not like to be pulverised by giants or sucked dry by vines.

~tOH.

That is because you missed the whole point of my statement, TOH.

To put it down blunt and simple:
I am not saying that staying the big F out of SVB is wrong from either IC or OOC standpoint.
It's perfectly legitimate to not want to be exposed to something that turns you into a drooling zombie.

What I was saying, is that SVB is actually causing and in fact - encouraging this sort of behavior. Which then translates onto various aspects of EFU as a whole:
"Hey, why do I do that quest in a HEAVILY withered area, if I can do two, closer, and safer and I ain't gonna rot?"
"Hey, screw talking, let's run through the whole server to get from point A to B and avoid unnecessary talking [RP] to speed it up and rot less"

.. etc, etc.

You dig, bro?
As I pointed out somewhere - don't take stuff personal.

This topic was also not for arguing who's a good RP'er and who's a bad RP'er.

To put it in three simple words:
It. Kills. Mood.

Quote from: Starless Night;299343That is because you missed the whole point of my statement, TOH.




To put it in three simple words:
It. Kills. Mood.

Then I am still not getting it. You seem to be saying that because I ICly tell my group that lingering is a bad idea and makes us vulnerable and hurts us, it kills mood. And I am still not seeing it. *sigh* I cannot see why we can not take such precautions IC and, while moving rapidly in the danger zones (as rapidly as is possible without losing group cohesion and dropping stragglers behind), why we cannot slow down and resume chatting once we are back in an area where we are safe from Withering and less likely to encounter hostiles.

The OOC behavior you are complaining about also existed in EfU: A. Trust me. It just found other ways to express itself, possibly less visible ones. Nature was far safer to linger in (fewer extremely deadly monsters, no curse, no Agony of the Hunt) and therefore did not inspire to OOC behavior there. But it was just as much as a mood killer for me when someone in almost direct OOC talk informed me that they could not be bothered to do this or that quest because the loot sucked and the reward was too poor, or alternately 'that they needed to rescue the children again so they could get a golden sarrukh helmet this time.'

I believe that the mood that EfU: M is trying for is a mood where the surviving non-undead people should feel hunted, persecuted and in desperate danger. And it can work this way, and in the best cases it does. It is just that having established such a mood, maybe it shouldn't be surprising that some or even many characters are intimidated by it. And that some of them may even have splendid IC reasons for being so.

I do agree with you that the Withering creates a hub effect near the Mist. Conceivably that could be lessened if you established a few more places where characters are protected or nearly protected from the Withering. The Floating Enclave is not protected, but at least the curse isn't there and the ticking of it should be much slower, so something like that might count.

~tOH.

Short statement. I agree with above. If your character is cool enough to take on the withering to battle some gnolls who carry around axes etc, he should probably be cool enough to head back towards the mist in a normal pace, or anyone can at least play it that way. In a lot of cases, anyhow. All this running to avoid the withering is just a buzz kill to me.

Yeah. Dividing loot elsewhere does make sense.

At least this has given me the perfect idea for my next character. He is going to spend all his time hanging out in front of the Kingsman gossiping with people.

...


...what? >.>

Hack, Starless is saying that the Withering kills mood, not that you do. Responding with fear of it's a perfectly acceptable IC thing, but it's keeping people out of a lot of game. The thing is, the bottom ends of the Withering level on an area are negligible. Sitting around the Conclave or the Hold won't turn you into a zombie.

Quote from: "VP"Furthermore, doing these quests did often draw the attention for spice and other things, and that in itself was often even worse

I am not exaggerating to say that this was what drove me away from playing Aorli Brakenshield who took on tough quests and areas, and on to a PC before Takao that just chilled out at L6 and played at herbalism. I didn't want frustration, I wanted fun and goals I stood a chance to succeed at. We tried do the hard quests and to build up supplies to hit the epic areas, but we kept being demolished by spice that had no bearing on plot. I mean, we planned to kill Father Michael the Psychopomp and you don't do that on a bunch of L6 PCs with 5 blurs between them. Nobody challenges NPCs to try and actually create a change in the server, as most of them can kick a PCs ass unless said PC has been powergaming like mad. When we take a risk on EfU, we're gambling. We're betting the time it took us to get those levels and supplies. The time IG that we're not spending plotting, and it's no fun if the house always wins.

Whereas yes, "anything is possible" it comes with the caveat of "If you can sell a DM on the idea and they're free to help". Looking back on the Order's defeat in the Bogs to the Rot Prophet, that offered a rare chance to fight an NPC group and harm them badly, even if it took a DM plot to allow it. The results of that, the exploration of Blackhearth and the rebirth of the Order garrison made SO MUCH GAME. Following various Conclave-related conflict both from without and within, it never seemed like any NPCs or the faction itself were in serious danger from it. Looking at the Withering, it doesn't seem like PC actions have any effect on it, even when I was playing an Order Footman who'd regularly go out and carpet-bomb Island Tumours with his Fireballs. Having just looked back over 6-7 months of IC rumours, I can't see anything about going out there and fighting the Lich. Most of it's internal conflict within Mistlocke.

Put some pointers out there for how PCs might be able to harm external threats to Mistlocke and see if they go for it. Whether it's that they can lower the Withering effect of an area by smashing Tumours or there's a small thermal exhaust port in the Machine that shorts out the Enclave's power if you shove a potato up it. Most importantly, allow significant progress without a DM, only needing them at checkpoints. I'm thinking of the Shards of the Crown plot and ofc H'bala's tower keys. People managed to get close to releasing her by means ranging from subterfuge, to muggings, to in the end convincing the druids they could definitely take her. Most factions worried about the stones, and resolution of who had then didn't require DMs except for specific ones.

There have been some things that have swayed the withering, or had an effect to boast or reduce it; most are just in-game knowledge, as it were. =]

Quote from: Egon the Monkey;299413Hack, Starless is saying that the Withering kills mood, not that you do.

Bah, you're just trying to kill my imba gossip in front of the Kingsman concept. *muttermuttergrumble*

Slightly more seriously, I still disagree. The Withering does not in and of itself kill mood. What does kill mood is far more 1) the OOC attitudes described above and 2) what you describe below, that nothing you seem to do out there appears to have any lasting effect. I once saw someone denounce the 'patrolling in Withered lands' idea that Sir Tremarus pushed so hard. Why? He was the one I saw who came closest to give the roleplay some feel that going out there and trying to fight the Lich's creatures actually mattered, that you were at the very least hurting its ability to just move around as it pleased and that it at least had to worry about strikes against its home territory.

Give us the feeling that questing against the Lich's creatures actually matters, the sense that the Conclave isn't just a collection of Wizard Overlords where nothing you do to resist them matters, and the like. Then it may show an upsurge in the kind of activity Howland seems to want. As it is, well. *sigh*

~tOH.

EFU,  I still love you...even if you are all withered and green.

I think I understand what StarlessNight mean. I agree with him, and I also agree with the fact that both players and characters don't want to spend too much time in withered areas. The ideal thing here would be to ''rp while going back to town''. It is logical that (both in-game and OOC) people want to spend the smallest amount of time possible outside of Mistlocke, so they hurry up on their way back. But what isn't normal is that they do it quietly, they don't talk at all. I think this is where the problem is. People could always talk maximum for two minutes then start the way back home...more than that is like they forgot about the curse...which won't make sense when ''they are afraid to see their fingers drop on the gound while massaging them''. Why should they ''shut up'' while returning to Mistlocke? Maybe we tend to forget this part because for us it takes 10 minutes (depending where you are) but for them it takes one hour and more. It can be troublesome to write while walking too (while watching for possible dangers) and on that point, maybe it would be worth to sacrifice a few moments to stop walking and finish writing even if you're getting more withered.

I could understand for a bunch of stealthy characters, but who cares when there are three Mr. Clankalot in plated armors accompanying you...

Most of what I thought otherwise has already been mentionned by other people. However, The Old Hack mentionned something interesting here. Most efforts from Mistlocke's people seem to be invested towards factions bickerings, or we could also say defending the town (like ''clean the granary''). I understand for power-hungry characters, but at some point there should be some people out there realizing that they're all slowly dying while arguing between themselves. (P.S. - Do not generalize, I don't mean that NOBODY cares about that, but more like not enough people realize it, maybe I haven't played long enough too, I'm still new here.)

Read or scanned most of the reply's, and Howland, it comes down to the withering for me.  Never really cared about levles/gold/potions...etc. Probably why I have only in EFU/EFUA/EFUM had two characters make it to level 8, the first for not very long and the second so far so good.  The death system here is one of the reasons it makes playing on the server so intense.  I do not feign to understand what SVB stands for or means..I do know that the withering is keeping me from exploring the server to the extent I would otherwise.  IC, I do not want to wither away. OOC,..I do not want to wither away..exploring the server seems to be compounding my withering, and the cures available doing little to abate it.  On EFUA, I think I saw the entire server, at some point or another, and exploring and discovery was one of the most fun activities done.  It was literally " Lets go for a walk and see what we find!"

Now, it is ..let's go for a walk..oh wait, do we really really need to go there, by the time we get back, I will be a puking, green, fly infested mess..(hyperbole to make a point) It is not that fast, but it is definitely a factor most focus IC and OOC staying out of the Withered zones. I think the withering system in place has worked exactly as it was supposed to..but perhaps a bit too well.

TL/DR  Withering is bad.  Exploring is good.  Death is inevitable. Choose the death that ends your character as carefully as you choose the character. No body gets out of here alive..

I did Sunken Enclave at level 9 on Alfred Thenson a few months back and got like 300 exp for turn in on a quest that took a few hours. I think that deters people from going down and doing the most difficult quest on the server. That coupled with the fact that at least one person always dies on the quest unless you get really lucky

One of the coolest things you used to be able to do was go out with one of your buddies and explore almost the entire server and just RP off of each other.

Nowadays, you're likely to run into some assassin vines-like creature and end, well, there goes that.

I must say that there are some really awesome areas stil, of course, that don't have as much danger.

When EFU:A started, we were told we did not 'fear' the withering enough, so a system was put in place so the players did 'fear' it.  Now, that we (the players) know fear of it, it seems we fear it to much?  *so confused*

anyway, here is why I think a lot of people don't do the higher end quests, for MOST of us the reward is not worth the risk.  I (as I'm sure others as well) do not have hours and hours to sit a play.  My time is limited, so for me to quest the reward must out weight the risk.  Between the Withering, the risk of running into some of those you are in conflict with, and the huge risk of death, it's just not worth it.


(to be continuted.. have to run.)

Quote from: The Old Hack;299281Meh. I got told that it was my own fault Kara got invis ganked and executed because there were defenses against an invis gank. Defenses I normally used but no longer had available due to level loss. Sometimes I feel that getting involved in server and PC conflict with a non-badass character is suicide. You will forgive me for not being eager to experience level loss after losing two characters to an invis gank they could no longer defend themselves against. (Two completely separate events, mind you, and the older one was totally awesome because it was committed by a single badass character in the face of Stygians, Militia and half a dozen other PCs.)

My point being, no matter what people claim, if you try to 'rock the server', levels will matter.

Going to have to agree with this.  If you ruffle feathers, you better be a badass or hide because you are likely to end your career being invis ganked by someone much more badass than you.

My current PC was born specifically of a desire to see the server and explore as much as possible and actually see what was out there, something I previously felt I could not do because I had to always be on the defensive from powerful invis gankers.

bro don't taze me

Starless Night pretty much spoke my mind, especially on point 5 of his.

On the other hand - I am actually not that against Withering. I'd say that instead of removing Withering, it should be simply exploration that is rewarded more - more lore finds (I know there's already a lot, but still), more treasure from random spawns, more random treasure coves (and treasure coves that'd perhaps "resupply " each time a new group enters an area, instead of the "first come first served", that enforces a bit of "let's not bother exploring until the reset" mentality, and the rush of the exploration in early hours after reset).

The most obvious  candidate for more treasure findings (perhaps utilising the Scavenging system used for Gnolls quest?) would, of course, be the Ziggurat itself. For me, the Withering feels a lot (as I suppose it was intended to feel) like radiation in a post - nuclear RPG - you venture into the Wastelands, you come back glowing green. Heck, we even have Rad - X (Sylvan Dryroots) and Rad - Aways (Remove Curse/Cures), to speak to the heart of all Fallout fans ;). But as I said - while I certainly feel the "everybody's dying from radiation poisoning" part of post - apocalypse, I feel that "we are salvaging the remains of a better civilisation" part is terribly underdeveloped.

Or Withering could be simply removed mechanically, but the messages would stay.

Would stop that psychological effect on people.

Good idea. We could also remove damage from the setting but tell people that they feel hurt when they get hit.

Quote from: Greedisgood;299514I'd say that instead of removing Withering, it should be simply exploration that is rewarded more - more lore finds (I know there's already a lot, but still), more treasure from random spawns, more random treasure coves (and treasure coves that'd perhaps "resupply " each time a new group enters an area, instead of the "first come first served", that enforces a bit of "let's not bother exploring until the reset" mentality, and the rush of the exploration in early hours after reset).

Agreed, The loot from random spawns was absent to my knowlege, mostly because it was possible to stockpile massive amounts of potions and gold by spending all of your time in the wilds knocking back random spawns. This is no longer as much of a problem, as staying indefinitely in the untamed areas of the server is not possible without incurring either an XP or Money drain (Withering, death to BAMF spawns). I wouldn't advocate a huge boost, but perhaps enough to make it so rather than being excited you found a potion of Cure moderate wounds on the orc you killed, something abit more useful?

At the risk of being shot down, perhaps throw in a quest where the reward is some alleviation of the curse?

trolls on the low road brewing potions of remove curse //4-9

Quote from: I_need_a_haircut;299577At the risk of being shot down, perhaps throw in a quest where the reward is some alleviation of the curse?

Hm. This is not the worst idea. Possibly give it something to not just make it spammable, such as a payment of gold in order to start it, or needing a drop of some sort.

There are too many factions with too little consistency in them.
 
Too many means too few players in each and less attention given by the dm team to each, leading to less consistency.
 
When I look there are around fifteen people usually on, compare that to nine factions or so.

so to continue:

I also find getting a group of people together that makes sense rather difficult, at least when I was playing.

Between the (what seems like) forced conflict between the factions it's rather tough to find people you would work with.  The conclave pretty much is stuck alone, or maybe with Cameryn.  The Order is left without the Watchers or Nature, the Cameryn no Aberdeen which should then also leave out the Watchers.  The Watchers no Order, cameryn or conclave.  So, you need to know who the 'players' are in each faction.

I've seen some groups that I go "What the heck are they doing... oh, must be power questing time" because IC'ly it would make no sense for those groups to aid each other.

I haven't played in about a month now.. so much could have changed.  The Withering I don't so much mind, my last character couldn't enter Mistlocke for fear of death, and she only got to the Second stage (Maybe it's third).. no flies yet.  Granted getting a reduction was getting difficult as having the coin for the NPC was tough.

There isn't enough gray area in alignments, deities, and factions for the size of the player base. This means that your inherent choice of allies is few, and of those that are skilled enough to face the challenges of efu DM quests and high-end quests are even more limited.

If you cant rely on someone to handle a role, high end quests are stupid to attempt. Then you add on additional punishment by giving a timer on how long a pc can spend not questing in the withered land. There is no reward for killing the minions of Hbala. There is no potential to alter the landscape (Hbala or otherwise) without DM involvement, and no DM involvement that doesn't come with the super fun but hard quest that requires the well formed teams that are already rare.

EFU survives on player vs player conflict. That means well formed teams killing each other in interesting ways for interesting reasons. This means there is a relatively small length of time any solid team is formed for any faction. It is a pain in the ass to survive those conflicts too, because everyone is making fresh characters with no connections to the previous one.

The only faction that never stops is Mistlocke, it just changes hands. It is the plot everyone plays in, and the one that keeps everyone nearby. Everything else is background noise. Why wither?

I've been gone awhile and haven't felt the love for a long time. So I might be entirely dated.

Sidenote:  High level quests controlled by specific factions is a horrendous idea.  It just makes them that much more rare and unappealing for anyone that  might otherwise want to do it. Kant's being foremost on my mind.

P.S. If your base withering which takes place over a single 5 hour quest costs 3 uses of NPC remove curse to heal, and the quest gives you 400 gold as a reward, you've lost 500gp for the fun of questing. How else can you pay for that besides running the same dozen easy ones in the mist?

P.P.S. Why do player and item casting of remove curse do nothing without using dozens of them? If your 5 hour quest gives you 400 exp at level 9, but you'd need 8-10 remove curses cast to get back to where you started, you're at -900 exp. How many other quests must you do?

I always thought the complaints about the Withering were exaggerated until I played a PC who was around long enough to get heavily afflicted. I reached a certain point where literally all of my gold was going into treatments, leaving my inventory to dwindle away slowly. After I was able to go back down to moderate affliction (at heavy cost), I thought I'd be fine for a while. Not a day or so later, I was back to being heavily afflicted.

This leaves my character in a stalemate. He has no supplies or gold to pursue his goals. He cannot quest in the shroud because he is high level. He cannot leave the shroud for long because he will begin to attract flies (not too many PCs would be okay with walking around at that stage).

Something is definitely wrong. It might help if the visually noticeable effects of the Withering didn't emerge until much later.

Or turn ON Withering in the Shroud/Mistlocke.

Now it gets fun.

I suspect that is coming eventually. Sooner or later. >.>

Better sooner!

As Ebok very effectively points out, Withering introduces a need to quest-grind in order to simply exist outside the Mists or low-curse areas. Players have done the maths for it and realised that if they want to actually have money to spend on plot, they're best off questing within the Mist. What I think we need are more passive or PC-led means of income, Withering reduction etc. If you are questing for supplies, money for Withering cures, and XP to afford Withering cures, your PC cannot do anything else at that time. You aren't pushing plots, exploring for information, or having them argue with rivals. If resources can be acquired while you're doing something interesting, or it's best to be cured by other PCs, there's more RP going on.

What I find particularly strange is that PCs are considered to be less effective than NPCs at Withering reduction. I've always thought that went against the general EfU ethos that PCs should sell better/cheaper stuff than NPCs because that way there's more PC interaction. On my PC, I'm barely going outside the mist because even questing regularly I can't scrape up the money to spam NPC cures. Compare that though to some of the epic PVP duels where the PCs have used all sorts of supplies. I'm feeling that the Withering as a "tax" on PCs and general fear are giving EfU even more of a supply gap between effective powergaming teams and PCs that cannot see the worth in going out of town. Paha Poika is of course right that there are means to reduce or remove Withering, but there's two problems. One is that these may not be available to all PCs. Two is that OOC knowledge of them stays with the player and helps their next PC know what to pursue, creating a group of players that can deal with it and a group that cannot. The first group can go out powergaming, the second desperately hits Mist area quests to afford relief.

What might help the Withering be less crushing to PC interaction:

• Some NPC-sold withering cures as an item, not an action. This item removes Withering points at a variable level based on a Heal check, similar to how Medicinal Herbs work. This means PCs go looking for another PC to administer it if they cannot.
• Some vague idea of how long Dryroots last so that PCs can dose themselves effectively and the item sees more use. For example if they added +1 Negative saves so you had some idea when they wore off, even if the duration was randomised slightly.
• Ways to trade alternative resources for Withering Reduction. Currently the main resource is Time Spent Questing, as you pay in Gold, XP or both. Perhaps some cures that either reward RP or discourage questing? For example a cure that applies a non-removable -1 penalty to all stats for a couple of hours? or a Ritual Focus that needs 4-5 PCs consent to the ritual to charge it up and then fires and AoE Withering Reduction? Even a medicine that removes Withering by X amount but applies +1 Level Adjustment to your PC each time you use it, making quests less efficient but not taking way what you already have. That would be an incentive to RP rather than quest, until it wears off.

Quote from: Egon the Monkey;299888

• Ways to trade alternative resources for Withering Reduction. Currently the main resource is Time Spent Questing, as you pay in Gold, XP or both. Perhaps some cures that either reward RP or discourage questing? For example a cure that applies a non-removable -1 penalty to all stats for a couple of hours? or a Ritual Focus that needs 4-5 PCs consent to the ritual to charge it up and then fires and AoE Withering Reduction? Even a medicine that removes Withering by X amount but applies +1 Level Adjustment to your PC each time you use it, making quests less efficient but not taking way what you already have. That would be an incentive to RP rather than quest, until it wears off.

Find a priest with an appropriate deity. I, personally love the small number of ways to reduce withering, because as a priest of Beshaba with appropriate feats and such... I have the ability to DRASTICALLY reduce your withering level. Yes, it costs me some XP - but that's nothing in the long term for the favors, prayers and conversions I can get out of people in return for this.

Think outside the box.

Seriously though, as someone who lived outside the shroud, the withering is not that bad at all. Yes there are some days you wake up and your like "I need to get my Rad-Away today" and that becomes your days mission, but honestly-

Withering is not that bad. Any stigma it applies until super advanced stages is purely social. As long as your not doing hours long social interaction out in the dangerous wilderness your fine.

Patrols by undead (especially when DM's spice you) are a -FAR- greater threat than the withering. Every once in a while a Raven will spot you and then you get zerg rushed until you flee back to the shroud - this is great stuff, btw - and that is a far more pressing threat when you leave the village than the withering.

And adventuring should be like that. You should feel like leaving the shroud is a dangerous occupation, only done by the prepared and the capable.

Edit: Now if your playing a character who it's IC for them to be terrified of the Withering, even tiny amounts (as I am right now) then thats cool. But seriously, the Withering is actually very -tame-. It's those Vein Vines you better watch out for

I find it interesting in reading this thread, that as always there's two camps.

One that is trying to explain why they are feeling stifled to move beyond Mistlocke and the other that's saying basically "oh stop, it's not bad, suck it up and play".   Whether intended or not, that's how it comes across.   Seeing as how we were asked what was stopping us from exploring the server, I personally find that a less than helpful attitude and extremely condescending.  It's rather obvious that it's not just a few players that are feeling hampered for various reasons.  Which would suggest there is somewhat of an issue.

People have been giving reasons why they don't go beyond and suggestions on how to improve it.  It's worth listening to instead of blowing them off as nancies.

TBH, for me it's the presence of monsters with True Sight [or what seems to be] that also have a decent AB, stealth [detectable, I know, but you can't make all your checks], and onhit paralyzation on a passable DC, but it's still there. These are scary, as I'm sure they are intended to be, but the sheer commonness of these spawns are something that really would deter me. It makes it a lot harder to grab your best bud and go exploring the server [Which is what I think can stifle a lot of fun times]. Other spawns I'm fine with as they are mostly avoidable with the use of invisibility/stealth.

I think it's the combination of stealth and true seeing that gives it the most scariness. This is generally in regards to smaller parties, but even bigger parties can have a person go down in seconds if the AI decides to go for a less-bulky character. Just doesn't feel fun to die that way. I'd rather die by being swarmed by withered marauders.

Quote from: Egon the Monkey;299888What I find particularly strange is that PCs are considered to be less effective than NPCs at Withering reduction.

I agree. I especially love to be told ICly that my character is a moron to even try because it is IC for me to at least attempt to help even if I know that my help may not amount to much.

QuoteTwo is that OOC knowledge of them stays with the player and helps their next PC know what to pursue, creating a group of players that can deal with it and a group that cannot.

Indeed. As an example...

Quote from: Organized_Chaos;299892Find a priest with an appropriate deity. I, personally love the small number of ways to reduce withering, because as a priest of Beshaba with appropriate feats and such...

What is an appropriate deity? Do you love the small number of ways because it gives you a power monopoly? You like to lord it over other players? You enjoy telling them, "I know something you don't know! I know something you don't know! Neener neener neener!" You think it is fair to make people roleplay a religion they don't want to roleplay if they want their Withering reduced?

QuoteThink outside the box.

Translation: "Know stuff you don't know, morons." Thank you very much for the non-help.

Quote from: xxWhisperingWindsxx;299896

One that is trying to explain why they are feeling stifled to move  beyond Mistlocke and the other that's saying basically "oh stop, it's  not bad, suck it up and play".   Whether intended or not, that's how it  comes across.

In very deed.

QuotePeople have been giving reasons why they don't go beyond and suggestions  on how to improve it.  It's worth listening to instead of blowing them  off as nancies.

But it is so much more fun to say "I am great and you suck!" They can just suck it up and let me lord it over them, they deserve that because they don't know stuff I know!

Feh.

I agree with TOH

Quote from: Organized_Chaos;299892Find a priest with an appropriate deity. I, personally love the small number of ways to reduce withering, because as a priest of Beshaba with appropriate feats and such... I have the ability to DRASTICALLY reduce your withering level. Yes, it costs me some XP - but that's nothing in the long term for the favors, prayers and conversions I can get out of people in return for this.

Think outside the box.

This. Feats? Specific Deities? If feat or deity choice does something, (a mechanic) it should be told to everyone. The fact that it isn't stresses This:

Quote from: Egonis that OOC knowledge of them stays with the player and helps their  next PC know what to pursue, creating a group of players that can deal  with it and a group that cannot.

I heard that withering scales up in intensity the longer your character has been on ymph.. If that functionality was removed, or -somehow- negated in a medium to long term method expensive or otherwise I believe there would be a positive change in how things roll.

So many rumors...DM should dispel some of these. The one above is especially disheartening.

I can say, I am from the "stop suck it up and play camp", Numerous of my characters have spent an abundance of time on this server, numerous of my characters have only reached stage -3- never further.

I have just spent around 1 full week -outside- the mist. Only occassionally eating herbs. I am moderately withered.

In that week, I have put in about 20-30 hours, In that week I have explored an abundance of the server.

Are you guys honestly saying, you cant put in 2-3 hours exploring the server, because your afraid your going to die?

Here are the facts.
1) The reduction done by clerics was recently doubled.
2) Not a single pc has ever died from being fully withered
3) Some of you are faction pcs, and have faction methods to reduce withering.


If you have never fully withered, how do you know how many stages there are?

Quote from: RuinedDesires;300401I can say, I am from the "stop suck it up and play camp",

I can tell from the complete lack of helpfulness.

QuoteIf you have never fully withered, how do you know how many stages there are?

By typing /c help withering in the prompt. Then you get a nice list of the stages.

~tOH.

If the pc is a cautious sort they are likely to take the withering quite seriously and only go out when they have to.  If they don't care about progressing toward undeath that is fine of course.
 
Other than that, if you want more people to go out, then have the cleric in the tower sell long lasting buffs as the former main buffers (wizards and sorcs) are now least likely of all to ever leave town, since they were unlucky enough to have their player pick a class an entire faction has declared war on.
 
As has been said, between withering treatments and having to self-buff, as well as difficulty finding people, some pcs just can't afford to go out.  The ability to buy long lasting buffs would help I'm sure.

Seriously though, my character avoids withering RELIGIOUSLY, but thats an IC thing. the withering is not that much of a huge risk.

Quote from: The Old Hack;300407I can tell from the complete lack of helpfulness.




By typing /c help withering in the prompt. Then you get a nice list of the stages.

~tOH.

Well done, missing the facts of the post

Wow, TOH, rather unfair.  He actually wrote several things in his post that, if true, should show that perhaps it isn't so bad as people think it is... which may indeed be helpful?

Quote from: Jayde Moon;300420Wow, TOH, rather unfair.  He actually wrote several things in his post that, if true, should show that perhaps it isn't so bad as people think it is... which may indeed be helpful?

That depends. One could also consider:

Quote from: xxWhisperingWindsxx;299896People have been giving reasons why they don't go beyond and suggestions  on how to improve it.  It's worth listening to instead of blowing them  off as nancies.

And I do not think it is helpful to tell people who have presented concerns of theirs as nancies. Mind you, it may indeed be helpful if that is what your opinion of them is. That way you have an excuse to ignore them and decide that if they don't play the way you think they should, it's because there is something wrong with them rather than with the game -- or with you. Heaven forbid admitting that they may actually have a point.

~tOH.

Damn,

The thread is called "Have Fun Dammit" not passive-aggressively blow each other up on the forum.

This could probably use a lock.

I think the key thing here, is that the actual problem has been drastically over imagined. People fear something, that is not that bad. Which was the point I was trying to make.

Yes, icly it is something to be greatly feared. However, at an OOC aspect, the problem is little more than the occasional need to see a priest. Even at that, the withering reductions have been doubled, players can quite easily get back to the first stage.

Those of us, who are constantly out in the withering, who are constantly taking part in other parts of the server are simple trying to say. Yes, fear it ic, but OOC you wont ever succumb to it, unless you -want- to succumb to it.

It is in the best interests of the survival and liveliness of the server to welcome folks with varying playstyles and catering to the 'hardcore' audience whilst leaving room for the more casual player seems to be a recurring theme when it comes to this topic.

It is perhaps most important to not resort to name calling and nonconstructive commentary such as singling out groups. i.e. 'nancies,' versus the 'stop, suck it up, and play camp.'

Remember, we are trying to help remedy the following situation by providing suggestions and or insightful commentary on how to improve:

Quote from: Howland;299049The apparent playstyle of the collective playerbase cringing away from the harder/more interesting quests in order to dully spam the well-worn road of the less dangerous quests has got to stop.

In regards to the most recent kerfuffle, I have noticed claims being made about changes to the Withering implemented in-game, which seem not to have been announced by the DM team, yet. Otherwise, I am inclined to agree with RWG, this thread may have reached its conclusion.

Have Fun...
 
It's a game, have fun.
No point in this thread from post one to this. If you are afraid IC or OOC have fun with it and play it off. If you're not afraid of the withering IC or OOC then have fun with it and play it off.
 
Key words are have fun and let the other guy have fun. If we're all having fun then guess what... It's fun!
 
_

The Old Hack, I think you need to take a break from this thread.  As a matter of fact, I insist.

Your statements to Ruined Desires are still unfair.  Your response to me is entirely mistaken in its depiction of his post.  Ruined Desires' posts in this thread have been nothing less than thoughtful and lacking any of your own passive aggressive behavior.

Here is his first post in this thread (http://www.escapefromundeath.com/forums/showpost.php?p=299099&postcount=30).  The one just above that you are attacking makes absolutely no judgement except what you insist on reading into it.

He caveats his post to admit that he does prefer a certain playstyle, but he doesn't say it's the 'right' style or that other people are 'nancies'.  In fact, he gives absolutely no opinion at all on other styles of play.

Instead he takes a very specific (mis?)conception and then describes why this concept may be mistaken.

You are the one attaching negative feelings to it.  You are the one making attacks.

So chill out.

I am firmly in the Nancy camp (the server is too damn hard!), yet I spend a good 50% of my time out in the Withered areas. For me, the absolute biggest problem isn't the Withering, it's this (//%22http://www.escapefromundeath.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69190%22) and this:

Quote from: The Crimson Magician;299900TBH, for me it's the presence of  monsters with True Sight [or what seems to be] that also have a decent  AB, stealth [detectable, I know, but you can't make all your checks],  and onhit paralyzation on a passable DC, but it's still there.

Both of these things are just straight-up not fun. There is nothing fun about having some rope-play interrupted by lethal spawns appearing out of freaking nowhere, and there is similarly nothing fun about deadly little pissant spawns that can utterly end a character with zero chance to defend against it.

I think the Withering is mostly an annoyance, but as I said (in the thread that was actually about the Withering), I've never once played a character who would be cool with having zombie juice oozing out of their faces.

Everyone breath.  No matter what it all boils down to "It's a game.  If you have fun play, if you don't have fun then don't play."  

No matter what your reason for not exploring / doing some of the harder quests, they are YOUR reasons.  It's not my job or anyone else to say you are wrong.

We have always had two camps in EFU.  Those that have NO fear of anything, they know the potions to use, the weapons that do the most damage, the best armor etc.  Then there are those that just don't.  Neither group is right or wrong.  Neither group is having more fun than the other.  No matter which group you fall into, if you are having fun, then you are playing RIGHT.

Attacking someone because they have a different opinion than yours is silly.  It gets you no where and you learn nothing.  

So... everyone just Breath.

Quote from: sylvyrdragon;300444So... everyone just Breath.

Don't try too hard though. :p

I'm going to lock the thread, allow me to offer my genuine appreciation to all who contributed positively and allow me to say that I and the rest of the DM team are keenly paying attention and eager to implement tweaks and changes in order to help make EFU, indeed, more fun.