The Conclave/Order/Wyrm Watchers all have quests that are really fun, stylish and awesome to do. Quests that are thematically theirs to give a sense of history and belonging to the server.
However, I believe that all quests should be available for any group to take. It simply does not make sense for Conclavists to do gnolls or for Ordermen to do Kant's or Wyrm Watchers to aid the Conclave respectively. It's a circumstance that I'd prefer resolved because each of these quests offer supplies, and loot that is very useful and can tip the scales in conflict.
What I suggest is make the NPC givers for each of these quests neutral. Not aligned with any major faction.
Change the reward to make sense if you must, but I think in the end its for the best.
So in other words
"Waaa Waa I wanna do this quest but it makes no IG sense for me to do this."
I say removing all faction quest giving NPCS is rediculous, and often in the underdark we were actually creative, and sometimes took quests in disguises.
(Team law wanting to do a quest in Lower Sanctuary, and well we couldnt exactly do that in watch uniforms.)
So I say either be inventive, and solve this problem (take quests not in faction uniforms.) Stand by your characters principle/option by not questing with that faction.
I oppose this suggestion 100% percent.
Nobody is forcing you to play a concept that is at odds with faction questgivers.
I don't really think it's necessary to remove these simply because your faction pc cannot do one or perhaps two specific quests. You gain many benefits for being in a faction but they come with natural downsides too, there are dozens of quests out there of the same level, it's really not difficult to avoid doing a specific one.
Also, I really don't understand why if your PC was opposed to said thing you'd do it in disguise? You are still helping these people who wouldn't hire you otherwise which is somewhat illogical.
Enough other quests out there to gain supplies/xp from.
I don't see much of a problem here. If you're an Ordermen who has been getting into the occasional scrap with the Conclave, then maybe you decide to do the quest associated with them for reasons of gathering intelligence on their activities in the Ziggurat.
Or maybe in another instance your Conclave PC wants to show the Wyrm Watchers the might your Empire wields by holding back that horde of orcs they've been struggling with, to discourage them from crossing you again.
And so forth.
Dr Dragon I think its low of you to talk down to the man for posting this. I seem to remember you not always being perfect.
Once that is said I agree that it sucks to have cool/fun quests made none avalible to your pc, due to factions. But I also think that it adds something to a faction to have these quests. I do not think it should be changed.
While I think the idea should be very low on the list of things to implement based on the time an effort it would take on behalf of the DM team and the minimal benefit the server gains from it I do like the place The Man In The Mist is coming from.
This isn't so much about grinding quests for experience and items its that there are certain quests which are more entertaining, risky and fun to be a part of that a player can be forced into avoiding due to IC circumstances regarding the quest giver; Why would my Mistlockian Patriot want to help the Conclave catch a "renegade wizard" for example?
The problem The Man In The Mist is trying to fix is that just because your character is opposing certain factions it limits access to some of the quests that could be the players favorite part of EfU. A character's lifespan can last for weeks or months at a time and that's a long while to avoid doing the quest that you consider your favorite part of the server.
What is told about the quest is that certain Conclave Zeulisad has been lost in a research area and you are set to investigate it and I believe most characters once they enter the quest area and learn more of the situation are willing to continue helping the Conclave. If you do not metagame the results of the quests, it may lead to ballsy situations if your character is suddenly no longer willing to end it. I've yet to see a player (although I am sure there has been such situations but not when I am present!) who refuses to continue the taken scripted quest and return to the questgiver empty handed because it clashed with their ideal, even though it means the loss of supplies and reward.
What comes to this idea, I disagree. I believe doing even scripted quests should reflect your characters ideals and it can serve as a way to serve conflict of ideals before the first hit off PvP. Following your character certainly makes you stand out from the crowd when he refuses to aid some NPC/PC. Neutral characters on the other hand can be spotted by this that if they regularly aid everyone, Conclave, Order, Wildlings, Mistlocke, Wyrm Watcher, Necromancers? - Maybe the said faction PCs/NPCs will begin to doubt to whom their loyalty belongs and no longer wish their aid in important matters - maybe even view them as hostile.
I don't think any faction has more than one specific quest tied to them and there's plenty of quests not tied to any faction (Of course, some factions have a hate relationship with multiple factions). Nonetheless, people are not running out of quests because of the current situation.
Quote from: The Man In The Mist;305882It's a circumstance that I'd prefer resolved because each of these quests offer supplies, and loot that is very useful and can tip the scales in conflict.
This right here rather invalidates any other reason you're giving. Especially if you're already in a DM faction. You get specific faction benes that other people don't. You also get access to faction specific supplies that others don't.
You've basically summed up your argument that you want another reason to acquire "stuff & loot" and quest grab.
If you're going to be in a DM faction or side with a faction, shouldn't you at least keep the pretense of staying IC?
QuoteThe problem The Man In The Mist is trying to fix is that just because your character is opposing certain factions it limits access to some of the quests that could be the players favorite part of EfU. A character's lifespan can last for weeks or months at a time and that's a long while to avoid doing the quest that you consider your favorite part of the server.
There is a simple solution to this. Don't join a faction. If running a specific quest is what you love about efu, then don't limit yourself. there is a reason these quests are given by Specific Factions, this very reason you are discussing. Instead of them all being "OMG lets go crush X", you might actually have to stop and think.. "Why would my Orderman go help/ save the conclave"?
Personally I think your character should do it for every quest they go on. I had one character that refused to do Gnolls.(before the quest giver was an Orderman.. back in EFUA after the bog wars) Why? She never saw them just roaming the lands and killing people. they stayed in their little spot and didn't pose a threat. So why poke the hornets nest.
We are on a server that the Story is suposed to mean something, that what you do or say has some effect on the world around you. This means sometimes you have to limit yourself, or don't join a faction.
QuoteDon't join a faction.
pfff... join ALL factions... and go a double, triple, multiple spy!
*-*
and do ALL quests!
To discourage players from joining factions in favor of quests is definitely not something I imagine is wanted. We want players in DM factions/groups/etc. because they make the world feel more alive, active, and ultimately add to the experience.
Another way to deal with this may be to just kill said NPCs [because you guys are opposed, right?] and somewhat force the DM's hand in making a new one.
QuoteAnother way to deal with this may be to just kill said NPCs [because you guys are opposed, right?] and somewhat force the DM's hand in making a new one.
That's a bit silly. Like throwing your toys out of the pram. Sort of smacks of a 'if we can't do it, no one can.' attitude.
I'm completely with WWind on this one. I don't mean to be rude, but this is probably one of the more disappointingly powergaming-centered suggestions I've seen in a while. While I admittedly haven't done Kant's because I've never been associated with the Conclave, I'm not entirely sure what high-risk, high-reward, excruciatingly fun quests we're complaining about not having access to. Gnolls? Most relatively well-equipped PC's don't even have to worry about knocking back a bark potion for this, and unless you're dying for a couple stacks of cure light potions, I don't see what necessary rewards Gnolls has that your character is going to be crippled without if you don't take this quest every reset.
I also find it a bit silly that we're complaining exclusively about Wyrm Watcher, Order, and Conclave -- each of which are DM factions that receive a fair amount of attention, require an app, and have faction-specific loot. If we're going to talk about quest exclusivity, we should be looking at Stargazers and wild PC's who can't grind granary and well or spend a minute doing Tower of Hanoi every reset for low-level advancement, not those PC's who actively know what they're getting into by joining major factions.
If I have one major pet peeve about EFU recently, it's this metagaming, OOC loot quest that certain players seem to be on and this suggestion exemplifies this mentality pretty perfectly. The whole incident with half of Mistlocke coming to the Conclave's aid despite having spoken out against their actions repeatedly is another pretty striking example of this as well. It's frustrating to see certain PC's group together with those who they would typically conflict with in favor of a few quests and a level. And while I try not to associate my IC actions with those that I'm preferential to OOCly, I for one would be much more willing to spend an hour roleplaying a philosophical conversation with a druid than go on the quest train that s/he purposely left because the group invited Conclave, Order, Watchers, and evil priests alike in favor of a better questing party.
I've probably gone too far already, so I'll stop here and leave my thoughts at that. Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying I can't be just as guilty of this as the next person. Whenever there's a DM shout, there's a certain instinct to gravitate towards it, both because of the deviation from the norm and because, truthfully, a vast majority of the server is going to go there for an event anyways. But there are way more important things than promoting massive quest trains that the DM team can be focusing their time and attention on doing.
I used them as examples, Pandip. There are other quests that would be 100% for Ordersmen to do if they weren't given by a Stargazer, for example.
The point remains, I believe all quests should be completely legitimate for any faction to do or group.
Chances are it won't happen, I understood that, but the tone some people took was inappropriate, and unproductive, to the discussion.
I guess I'm just missing a satisfyingly concrete reasoning for this to happen, especially considering the consequences for making the changes. Removing the faction-exclusivity of certain quests ruins a lot of the lore involved with them. What is Gnolls without the fact that it is a burial ground for the Order and therefore important to purge? What is the Bogs Defense quest without it being a necessary bulwark for the gazers? So on and so forth.
I've never seen this as a problem. If I'm doing a quest on a character that may conflict with the stand-point of the quest-giver, I just RP it as something entirely different. Order hating Wizard? I didn't talk to a Templar to find out about burial grounds plagued by gnolls, I found it by myself. The money I got from the reward? Out of the Gnoll's raid supply chests.
Order owes me no favors, I don't owe them any favors. Simplicity itself.
Imagination goes quite a long way. :U
Quote from: Mathamune;306123To discourage players from joining factions in favor of quests is definitely not something I imagine is wanted. We want players in DM factions/groups/etc. because they make the world feel more alive, active, and ultimately add to the experience.
Another way to deal with this may be to just kill said NPCs [because you guys are opposed, right?] and somewhat force the DM's hand in making a new one.
What is said was in tongue and cheek.
It was said:
Quote....just because your character is opposing certain factions it limits access to some of the quests that could be the players favorite part of EfU.
If this is your favorite part of efu, then don't join a faction that is opposed to it. Efu is about much much more than the quests. I'm not saying that it's wrong to be your favorite part.. just that if it is, don't join the faction.
Doing a quest from a Conclavist NPC when you aren't affiliated with them is no problem. After all, they're paying.
Doing a quest from a Conclavist NPC when your character is vehemently opposed to and at active war with the Conclave, on the other hand, is pretty shifty.
Quote from: Big Orc Man;306167Doing a quest from a Conclavist NPC when you aren't affiliated with them is no problem. After all, they're paying.
Doing a quest from a Conclavist NPC when your character is vehemently opposed to and at active war with the Conclave, on the other hand, is pretty shifty.
Precisely. I just feel quests should be faction neutral so all may partake in them.
I think your suggestion has merit in some of the circumstances, but not others.
Gnolls, for example, is a quest that has many competing quests you could perform instead.
Kant's, on the other hand, really doesn't have a lot of alternative at high levels, so your point is very well taken there.
I would love to do the tower of mercy, sadly, my PC hates the Conclave and has mixed it up with them more than once.
Kant's in particular is a quest I feel needs to have either two methods of taking the same quest (perhaps Conclave paying while someone else giving random loot as a reward). After taking the quest twice my wizard was better supplied than any other character of mine has ever been. Admittedly I generally don't have much in the way of supplies, but it does seem a bit unfair that some can't take it.
QuoteI would love to do the tower of mercy, sadly, my PC hates the Conclave and has mixed it up with them more than once.
Tower of Mercy is a neutral quest, its quest-giver is simply an archaeologist, not the Caliphar in the Mythallar Chamber.
Quote from: Big Orc Man;306170I think your suggestion has merit in some of the circumstances, but not others.
Gnolls, for example, is a quest that has many competing quests you could perform instead.
Kant's, on the other hand, really doesn't have a lot of alternative at high levels, so your point is very well taken there.
One thing in particular: Kant's has some of the best wizard loot of all the scripted quests yet 'renegades' are more or less definitionally unable to do it. I am not complaining about this, I merely make note of it -- if it is the intent that mages that do not align themselves with the Conclave should not have access to this loot, it is fine.
QuoteAnother way to deal with this may be to just kill said NPCs [because you guys are opposed, right?] and somewhat force the DM's hand in making a new one.
It's doubtful that will "force the DM's hand" since you, well, need a dm to kill npcs :D
Quote from: The Old Hack;306187if it is the intent that mages that do not align themselves with the Conclave should not have access to this loot, it is fine.
This was originally the purpose of the quest. It was created back when the conclave had very few allies an there were lots of dangerous off limit locations and npc's who they couldn't work with (order/wyrm watchers.) Things have settled down quite a bit since then. It's worth noting however that given the story of the quest, a renegade most certainly wouldn't want to help with it.
I also think, incidentally, that I'm not that opposed to the allies of the Conclave ending up somehow with a bit more in the way of wizard supplies.
That is the Conclave's area of focus, after all.
Quote from: HungeringShadows;306202This was originally the purpose of the quest. It was created back when the conclave had very few allies an there were lots of dangerous off limit locations and npc's who they couldn't work with (order/wyrm watchers.)
I thought it was a bit older than that? I mean, not necessarily older than the situation that you postulate -- an isolated Conclave -- but that it actually appeared the first time a few months before the end of EfU: A. I seem to remember doing it together with Qadima (Squidima) once on Karrin Connell.
QuoteThings have settled down quite a bit since then. It's worth noting however that given the story of the quest, a renegade most certainly wouldn't want to help with it.
Well, yes and no. As a matter of principle most would likely refuse, including my two most recent mages. But given that the scenario holds an actual Conclavist gone mad with power, the more mercenary or ruthless might figure that payback's a bitch, let's go grab his loot. But in general I agree.
Quote from: Big Orc Man;306228I also think, incidentally, that I'm not that opposed to the allies of the Conclave ending up somehow with a bit more in the way of wizard supplies.
That is the Conclave's area of focus, after all.
Fair enough. That leaves us only with the problem of relatively few high level quests, which might be an issue for a different thread. *scratches head*
Quote from: The Old Hack;306256Fair enough. That leaves us only with the problem of relatively few high level quests, which might be an issue for a different thread. *scratches head*
Here is a helpful list for you. For level 10 characters Coral Cove, Orcs Part II (level cap is higher than orcs part 1, but with roleplay you can obtain the map) Zatoru's Peak, Mist Ogres, Sinister Evil, Lizardfolk and Bog Invasion (may be level9 max I forget)
All of those quests are reasonably long, especially with roleplay just doing two of those is a whole evening.
For level 9 we have Brood Hive, Purple Crystal, Orcs Part 1, Bog Witch Coven (Trolls)
I make that seven quests with a max of level ten and then another four with a max level of nine. Plenty in my book for high level players.
Edit: Sorry if this is poorly formatted I'm rather tired.
You also missed the Old Stones Rent Collection which is max 10 or 11, that makes eight.
Quote from: HungeringShadows;306257For level 9 we have Brood Hive, [COLOR="Red"]Purple Crystal[/COLOR], Orcs Part 1, Bog Witch Coven (Trolls)
Purple Crystal Caverns was reduced to level 8 max.
Quote from: Aethereal;306323Purple Crystal Caverns was reduced to level 8 max.
It's been about a week since I've been out there, but Purples was back to 9 cap at that point.
Off topic, jeeze.
Quote from: The Man In The Mist;306359Off topic, jeeze.
Policing your own threads in order to boost your post count is a revolting practice Thomas. At the very least you should attempt to say something constructive and leave the administration to an administer.
The subject has not drifted so far from the original topic. It currently pertains to whether there are enough quests present to justify your argument that more be made available to a wider group of players.
To the above, I can confirm that purple crystal quest is indeed level 9 cap as of this week.
Dear lord, there are enough quests everyone can do. Faction-esk quests add flavore. I like it. I hate the mentality of how everyting should be fair or even, quest wise or class power wise. Life isn't fair, Ymph isn't fair. Infact if people worried less about questing/PvP/winning and more about plots/exploring/just doing stuff, things would be great.
More on topic, how boring would it be if you could do everything or go everywhere?
I think it would be detrimental and reduce immersion if EVERY quest was given by a generic, unaffiliated NPC.
That being said I think there should be at least one short and quick quest per tier that anyone can do, and at the very least pays a small some of gold to those who don't have a steady wage; harpies are a great example of this:
*Relatively short
*You can bring along just about group and still have a blast
*Most characters can justify going
*Puts money in your pocket if you don't have a wage
Except for the fact that you can't go if at odds with the order... gnolls serve a very similar function. I don't think it would 'hurt' to have some low-risk, low-reward quests that are available to everyone looking for a half-hour of light hack and slash.
Quote from: Numos;306496I don't think it would 'hurt' to have some low-risk, low-reward quests that are available to everyone looking for a half-hour of light hack and slash.
Purple crystal quest is quick and relatively easy. Provides a source of healing. Lizardfolk, while not as easy, is just as short as gnolls. I don't agree that a level 9 or higher character should have a "low risk" quest available to them as it gives more incentive to develop bonds and relationships with other characters/factions in order to gain a some financial security.
It's been said many times that it is not favorable to open up more quests to the high level characters, by the time you hit 9+ level, you should be doing more than just quest grinding.
As for the removal of "Faction quest givers", I think as it is now, it adds a bit of flavor to the server. If for what ever reason your character can't or won't aid those factions you are out at most what 1 maybe 2 quests on the entire server. I would hope there are enough other things you can do that these few quests are not game breaking.
Also if you want to be TOTALLY fair, so that everyone can do every quest, then move the quests out of Mistlocke so that the Stargazers and 'wilds' characters can do all those lowbie no risk delivery quests. You know the ones, have dialog get money / items. Makes no sense does it? But, it would make it so that everyone can do every quest, regardless of affiliation.
Please delete thread this is probably the worst suggestion on this forum.
Quote from: HungeringShadows;306498Purple crystal quest is quick and relatively easy. Provides a source of healing. Lizardfolk, while not as easy, is just as short as gnolls. I don't agree that a level 9 or higher character should have a "low risk" quest available to them as it gives more incentive to develop bonds and relationships with other characters/factions in order to gain a some financial security.
I'm not arguing there should be more low-risk quests so much as that there should be some equity in what quests everyone can do. Is there a granary-esque quest that's viable as an exile, for example?