Once upon a time these races didn't require applications.
Frankly I always enjoyed the idea of monstrous little evil minions, wild feral monsters roaming the lands, etc. One of my favorite PCs I have ever played was a Goblin so I was curious: The application process for these two races is woefully simple and often times pass but of late they have been kind of sparce. It just feels kind of weird to me that WEREWOLVES, WERERATS, etc are more prevalent and prominent than some of the most stereotypically copiously copulating creatures of D&D.
If the DMs re-implemented this process like they did the stargazers, without apps being required, anyone actually play these little bundles of evil wonder and splendor?
I know there have been some but it's one of those things that more is always better!
Whilst this kind of thing is always open to people playing "bad" monsters who do not represent the race properly. I think that making these creatures non-application is probably a good thing. I do not think it is so much the difficulty of an app (admittedly very easy for such a race) that puts people off so much as the potentially long waiting times if processing is slow in which they cannot play. Furthermore, as they are not particularly strong and KOS they often have short life spans which can mean a few days waiting to play only to wipe on the first day, rather discouraging.
So long as players can respect the rules around monster races and not simply wander around town trying to associate with humans etc I think we'd see somewhat more of these creatures.
I suspect that the hassle of maintaining a high standard of RP from non-application monsters may outweigh the potential benefits but that's just my two cents.
If I recall correctly, the reason for the application requirement being put back in place for goblins/kobolds wasn't because of improperly played monsters.
It was because people were making goblins/kobolds in droves as sort of an arena-sport concept and an excuse to throw caution to the wind on a throw-away PC.
I still recall the pile of 20 some dead PC's in the sewers of old EFU that resulted from the removal of applications for them. That might have had something to do with it.
At least with application requirements the investment is at least equivalent to the amount of work they might put into any other PC (as you say, it's quite an easy app to get approved).
I'd love to see more of those pesky little monsters in game !
It's a pretty easy app to pass, the only delay is in giving DM';s time to look at it
Whilst the singular goblin or kobold outcast might work well without any overarching goals or plots, I'd always prefer to see groups of kobold and goblin PC's have something to work towards beyond instigating and encouraging PvPfests. The best way to ensure that is by having an application system. Without that, it could very easily end up becoming just a path for OOC cliques to create monstrous bands and sharpen their PvP skills with a race that's guaranteed to give them plentiful opportunities and reasons to do so.
I dunno if i'm afraid of roaming gangs of powergamer goblins. Seems like a shit race to choose for that.
I personally liked these beings as a free to make, however... As mentioned on previous posts, even as a player I saw way too many of these made as a throw-away characters. In sense of monsters, that is not a bad thing. Goblins die and breed like rabbits, but the truth is that they are not normal monsters when build up by a player. They are stronger and more meaningful, and very much more deadly.
It is not acceptable to have completely fearless and meaningless monsters, whom have nothing to lose and can freely go at people without concern for their own well being, just because they are monsters that have somewhat a justification.
However, I am sure we'll end up discussing and considering this between ourselves, and we'll see. No promises.
It worked for EFU, where desperation made strange bedfellows. It does not work with EFU:M where desperation makes people cling tighter to values and retain their civilization as best they can.
QuoteI dunno if i'm afraid of roaming gangs of powergamer goblins. Seems like a shit race to choose for that.
You should be. We have had some immensely powerful goblins.
Anyway -
OK, it might take a player 5 minutes to dash off a quick app and then wait a day for it to be approved. But I know from experience that it requires much more time from DMs to manage when people stroll into town with their goblin or get involved in some dodgy pvp situation or are outraged over something or another.
Slightly off-topic, I would love to be able to apply for non-evil monsters. After all, the monster npcs who die every day by the dozens represent the evil norm of their respective race and it would be nice if players could have the opportunity to play the tiny non-evil exception which, I guess, exists.
People do play good monster PCs.
They just tend to die faster from their habit of hanging around in town.
Quote from: Paha;311028Goblins die and breed like rabbits, but the truth is that they are not normal monsters when build up by a player. They are stronger and more meaningful, and very much more deadly.
Quote from: Howland;311034You should be. We have had some immensely powerful goblins.
This is why I dislike PC Goblins and Kobolds and feel they should be app only, (
yes, I have played them). IMO, they are suppose to be weak monsters. And those that are not weak, would not be hanging around with those that are not of their respective race without a VERY good reason. They would be kings, leaders, shaman and whatnot of their race. They would make every attempt to overthrow other leaders of their race to become the new leader. What they would not be, is be smart enough to become powerful, and stupid enough to get themselves killed.
Perhaps if they were made a non-app race then their level cap should be set way low (say 6th) and have to app for 7th and up levels. Or something on that line.
Simply enforce the same rules that are set on Stargazer PCs, have them be able to be retired at any moment and take Cerb's suggestion and enforce a level limit.
I would not like an introduction of the creation of level limits. One thing might lead to another and then a whole bunch of hoopla gets thrown about. The soft cap should be suitable and if goblins are as KOS as they are said, then the ones who do survive and prosper deserve to be a top predator and actually strike fear.
From my perspective, goblins aren't necessarily weak creatures (~halfling status, as represented), just incredibly cowardly and unorganized. Kobolds are just generally weak, though, having a few niches that they can relatively excel at, the rest kind of just flopping.
Moral of the story:
Send more apps for pesky critters!
problem with that cerberus.. what if you spent the time to get 6th lvl.. loved that goblin to death.. then had your app denied?.... that would suck so bad lol
Level caps are a daft idea. >_> It's like punishing someone for managing to flourish with their monster PC. Obviously I know 6-7th level aren't difficult to get, but there's an added risk trying to get it with a monster PC unless you have a group that can protect each other.
How about this: app-free but you don't get to complain about PvP. Ever. Doesn't matter if you got killed at level 3 by roving level 10 Society goons. Doesn't matter if they broke any rules. Doesn't matter. You're playing a goblin/kobold. You're trash. Your goal is to die.
There. No DM headache and only players with tough stomachs would ever consider it.
Edit:
Even though kobolds are my favorite race by far there's something about the current settings that just sort of seems to discourage having a lot. I'd say that's the main reason for the app-only part. Maybe it's just me but it may be a bit weird to have a lot of them in our current setting. Something about it just doesn't scream kobold at me.
In the Underdark it felt a lot more appropriate, just from the color scheme and everything. Same can be said for goblins now.
Quote from: Jasede;311141How about this: app-free but you don't get to complain about PvP. Ever. Doesn't matter if you got killed at level 3 by roving level 10 Society goons. Doesn't matter if they broke any rules. Doesn't matter. You're playing a goblin/kobold. You're trash. Your goal is to die.
There. No DM headache and only players with tough stomachs would ever consider it.
That does not account for the victims of monster PC attacks who may still raise issues.
In my admittedly limited experience it's usually the monster PC who is the "victim". I've yet to see monsters mindlessly run around breaking PvP rules.
Well, except when I play one of course.
Seems to me like the app-free no complaints about pvp thing was tried before and was removed, most likely because of complaints.
App free means we could have 50% gazers and 50% monsters on the server. Could be fun, but meh...
Just app. If it's nothing too silly it's usually approved.
This subject caused me tremendous distress in the great year of 2007.
Please keep them app only - and minimal in their influence. The following are my concerns:
- Monster PC's are rarely as fleshed out and developed as normal PC's. They frequently rely on gimmicky roleplay crutches to define their personality and worldview. This in turn results in a marginal contribution to the game world. At best we get a monster PC that runs quests alone, sometimes finding an evil PC to be his quest buddy. At worst we get roaming mobs of OOC buddies that create monsters simultaneously with little ambition outside of large scale PvP.
- Most PC's have a difficult time establishing meaningful relationships with Monster PC's since most races will just want to kill a monster on sight.
Really nice to see players pointing out the downsides of roaming mobs of monster PC's.
Monsters in D&D belong in the hands of DM's as NPC's. Ideally, these NPC's serve as obstacles that are killed by players for experience points.
The occasional monster can be OK and pretty fun though I guess...
Bring back Gobsquat. That is all
Again the only real reason that goblin/kobold apps are very rare to see is because they have a lifespan of about a week if you're /really/ good about it. It's just not worth the app for such a weak creature that can be freely KoS'd by anybody that happens to be skulking around for no particular reason.
Quote from: Pigadig;311044People do play good monster PCs.
They just tend to die faster from their habit of hanging around in town.
I was not referring to pcs of non-evil races, but to non-evil pcs of evil races.
Like goblin paladins of Sune.
Quote from: xXCrystal_Rose;311913Like goblin paladins of Sune.
Goblin women are clearly the epitome of beauty.
Quote from: nammykun;311879Again the only real reason that goblin/kobold apps are very rare to see is because they have a lifespan of about a week if you're /really/ good about it. It's just not worth the app for such a weak creature that can be freely KoS'd by anybody that happens to be skulking around for no particular reason.
Frankly, if one does not think their concept, especially goblin or kobold, is not worth 10 minutes of their time to write the idea fairly simply into a forum post and wait for probably one day - I am bit inclined to say that person is not worth having it.