By now, whether your character has been on ymph for a while or not.
Don't act like you don't know she is dead unless you were in extreme seclusion and never used any kind of magic.
Its not like shes the goddess of magic only for Ymph like some people seem to think.
When she was murdered, everyone's pot got shit in, not just the Ymphian stew pot
I just thought some people might need clarification on this
I feel this may be some form of jab at the actions of one of my current pc's. If so, please PM me instead of making a public post so I can clarify why his actions were justified.
If it is not then I do agree with the post, unless you were in extreme seclusion you would of felt the effects of Mystra's death.
Nope, ive been telling people that since it happened.
You just happened to remind me.
/Edit: NOT A PERSONAL ATTACK
Every pregnant woman in the world miscarried and a red star appeared, magic went wild and so on. Its a safe bet everyone knows.
I will ramp up the preaching as well...
I think all clerics should bring their preaching to 11.
Opposing viewpoint:
Everybody knows something big happened. But some may decide that it was not due to Mystra dying. Whether out of denial, stubbornness, conservatism, a different interpretation or simple refusal to believe it is true, they deny belief in Mystryl and stay true to Mystra.
It is not as if this does not have equivalents in game history or even RL history. People with strong beliefs will hold on to them, sometimes in the face of oppression, torture or even reality itself. As an example: Tezzeret held on to his belief for EIGHTEEN CENTURIES after Mystryl died. Admittedly that may safely be called hardcore. Another, more 'recent' example: a lot of Banites stayed true to Bane even after Cyric and Xvim moved in.
My second most recent PC, the sorcerer Shard, was supposed to be a die hard Mystran. She would absolutely refuse to believe or accept that Mystra was dead and Mystryl had returned. This was going to be a main part of her concept. Whether it would last would greatly depend on events and how well Mystryllites did in convincing her but for the initial stages of her existence she would refuse to accept Mystryl, citing faith, trust and loyalty to the precepts she had been taught as her justification. Unfortunately she died the same day I made her. I think it is due to a bug in the Planar Bound perk: I took it, and shortly after, Shard got sacrificed to the Mist. o.O
In short: I could make a character that believed in Bhaal, Myrkul or even the second Mystra if I cared to (citing both the old Mystryl and the new Mystra as imposters, how's THAT for denial!) I may even do that sometime. So there. :p
~tOH.
I don't think Ao pulled out a loudspeaker and said for all the realms to hear "Mystra is dead!"
Just how do we all know that this is due to Mystra dying, exactly? What is our concrete evidence? Sure, there is wild magic, but there was wild magic places before, and dead magic places. Yes, it was everywhere, but how do we know with absolute certainty that not only is Mystra dead, but Mystryl has returned?
What I don't understand is how come there are so many priests/followers of a deity that hasn't existed in over two millenia that came about by foul ritual and the sacrifice of unborn souls.
Rihonal said the Red Star was Gargauth, about ready to make Faerûn the Tenth Hell, so, I agree with tOH and Valo in that people don't need to universally accept the existence of a new deity.
Quote from: Knight Of Pentacles;312768What I don't understand is how come there are so many priests/followers of a deity that hasn't existed in over two millenia that came about by foul ritual and the sacrifice of unborn souls.
My guess? Particularly ambitious sorts would want to get in on 'the ground floor'-- greater rewards in life and in death, maybe. Plus, there were plenty Mystra followers left without a God to worship when she was killed.
Quote from: Knight Of Pentacles;312768What I don't understand is how come there are so many priests/followers of a deity that hasn't existed in over two millenia that came about by foul ritual and the sacrifice of unborn souls.
Probably the same kind of people who joined the Transcendent Conclave (ambitious wizards!) Plus Mystra's died like a million times in Forgotten Realms. No one really likes her. They just want to be in the good graces of whoever's handling the weave at the moment.
One thing that I haven't seen much of (though maybe this option does exist) is a surge in Shar worshipers and Shadow Adepts given the damage to the weave.
*Seriously she's the worst idea Ed Greenwood ever had. She is to magic what Midichlorians are to the force.
Quote from: Valo56;312767I don't think Ao pulled out a loudspeaker and said for all the realms to hear "Mystra is dead!"
Just how do we all know that this is due to Mystra dying, exactly? What is our concrete evidence? Sure, there is wild magic, but there was wild magic places before, and dead magic places. Yes, it was everywhere, but how do we know with absolute certainty that not only is Mystra dead, but Mystryl has returned?
I think this is an EXCELLENT point.
For those on Ymph I think it is a safe bet EVERYONE knows unless they have been under a rock since it happened. The visions everyone had. The conversations etc.
I think it is very fair to think that those on the Mainland may not know yet, we have no idea if Mystryl has told Mystras church to get the message out, or if anyone there figured it out yet.
Quote from: Knight Of Pentacles;312768What I don't understand is how come there are so many priests/followers of a deity that hasn't existed in over two millenia that came about by foul ritual and the sacrifice of unborn souls.
Because of IC actions! I imagine some of the priests just wanted to get in on the ground floor, some saw divine visions etc. As to the followers, at least when I was still working it for Mystryl I tried to preach to every mage I met and some non mages too, Apocryphan and the others are still at it.
Quote from: Weaverific;312796Because of IC actions! I imagine some of the priests just wanted to get in on the ground floor, some saw divine visions etc. As to the followers, at least when I was still working it for Mystryl I tried to preach to every mage I met and some non mages too, Apocryphan and the others are still at it.
The appearance of new religions and faiths is actually a fairly common one. All it really takes is just one charismatic leader figure to gather followers. If the time is right (which is to say, the populace is generally discontent or afraid/worried, some sort of disaster has occurred or is occurring, a war is going on and the region is suffering badly from it) such a new movement can grow with amazing speed. It may even be welcomed by society at large in a pantheistic society -- hey, if we are in trouble and the old Gods aren't fixing it, maybe this new one can! This last is especially if the movement preaches values acceptable or hailed by existing society, of course.
The
staying power of such a movement is an entirely different matter. That depends on just how appealing the philosophy it preaches is and how satisfying it is to practice as well as, given the existence of Gods, whether it is actually backed up by a God or not. The cult of Mithras initially spread with staggering speed and gained great popularity but ultimately faltered whereas the ideas preached by a certain carpenter from Nazareth not only survived and prospered but budded a startling number of offshoots...
~tOH.
Quote from: Knight Of Pentacles;312768What I don't understand is how come there are so many priests/followers of a deity that hasn't existed in over two millenia that came about by foul ritual and the sacrifice of unborn souls.
This, can be found out in-game, with the priest/s who are currently of the faith.
It is its own story and ought to be explored rather than given as some exposition through an OOC medium.
Truly I think the only people that have the best chance of knowing and should know are magi, sorcerers, priests, bards, and other people of good lore... why? Because you don't expect a warrior to look into the sky and believe mystryl was back (if he even knew what mystryl was or even heard of her) just by seeing a star, and i doubt the average warrior uses magic like mages or sorcerers so overall he would not know! The miscarriages and other things could be interpreted as a disaster, or omen of evil as things like that usually are. Priests would know since they keep up to date on their fellow priesthoods and enemys to take religous advantage. Mages and Sorcerers would know! Even though we seem to cast magic exactly the same, when you think about it, every wizard or sorcerer for at least a bit should have had some trouble while mystryl was taking the weave back, so they know something went wrong in the weave!
The images (//%22http://www.efupw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72747%22) witnessed by those on Ymph reveal this much to its inhabitants (who were there at the time). Whether they are false, true or half-truths are left for the men of Ymph (where many kind of Mist visions are common enough, perhaps usually not shared by this many at the same time...) to decide.
What is felt and experienced on the Ymph and rest of the realms is the following:
Magic is fickle. Especially just after the event, chaos occurred. Now it has a bit calmed down but for how long, it is unsure. Spells do not at times work as they should and can cause extreme havoc.
Mystra does no longer answer her faithful. In the realms, most clergies and temples of Mystra would rather swiftly turn into chaos and despair. Meanwhile, the secluded and small factions (which would be very rare indeed) and other -few- devouts of Mystryl around are once again blessed with divine connection. As a result of this, they begin to gain followers (likely from the ones of former Mystra).
I will also use this to emphasize the point that Mystryl (//%22http://www.efupw.com/forums/showpost.php?p=308861&postcount=3%22) is not Mystra (//%22http://www.efupw.com/forums/showpost.php?p=308863&postcount=7%22) with a different name. They have completely different philosophies regarding the use of magic and clergies and faithful worshippers would swiftly realize this.
Dogma of Mystra:
Love magic for itself. Do not treat it just as a weapon to reshape the world to your will. True wisdom is knowing when not to use magic. Strive to use magic less as your powers develop, for often the threat or promise of its use outsripes its actual performance. Magic is Art, the Gift of the Lady, and those who wield it are privileged in the extreme. Conduct yourself humbly, not proudly, while being mindful of this. Use the Art deftly and efficiently, not carelessly and recklessly. Seek always to learn and create new magic.
Dogma of Mystryl:
Embrace the gift of magic in all of its glory, and do not take it for granted. Magic is your instrument, a thing of raw beauty, power, and majesty to be used to its greatest potential and never to be cloistered or contained. Research new subjects, spells, and magical items, for without waves of purpose and the pride of mages, the creative chaos of the weave will stagnate. Those who fail to embrace the full potential of the Lady's supreme gift are the worst of all abusers of the weave.
While the Mystrans seek to invent and work magic (also new magic), they usually do it with extreme caution and modesty and avoid collateral damage.
While all Mystrylites do not seek to deliberately cause harm while experimenting magic, they are not afraid to embrace the unknown and are willing to take risks in their magical conduct.
And before anyone goes ballistic, this is not directed at anyone in special. This is to help understand the change of Mystra to Mystryl. You are welcome to play your characters as they are but the old ways of Mystra are unlikely to provide you with good results (divine-wise), especially if you claim to be a Mystryls follower. Striving for such might in fact result in very dangerous events caused by the fickle and easily offended goddess.
The Forgotten Realms pantheons are boring. Why?
The Numinous Order is interesting. Why?
Forgotten Realms' pantheons are not conducive to conflicts of faith and religion. There are few open ended mysteries, and it offers no reason or incentive for your character to ever doubt their faith. Everyone knows exactly what each god stands for, and heretical cults are extremely fare because you risk losing your magic powers and becoming a brick in the wall. The gods strike me more as cookie cutter philosophies for characters to have rather than genuine faiths.
Contrast that with the Numinous Order where no one knows WHAT the mist is, if Tyr, Torm, and Ilmater really grant them spells, or if some darker entity is behind it all. People find their faith, question it, and a lot of cool conflict arises. Good stuff.
So you can either demand people immediately switch to the new dogma and mercilessly explode people who don't - or embrace conflict between Mystrans and Mystrylans; people who interpret Mystryl's dogma in other ways: and people who reject her completely. I think the latter makes for much better storytelling.
Quote from: Numos;312996The Forgotten Realms pantheons are boring. Why?
The Numinous Order is interesting. Why?
Forgotten Realms' pantheons are not conducive to conflicts of faith and religion.
I would like to insert a comment here, but please note that I am in no way attempting to refute you, merely to complement you.
The Forgotten Realms pantheons are not very conducive to conflicts of faith and religion
as they read. It takes very, very little to change them into something a lot more fun and interesting. In an FR game I once ran, I created a Tormtar faction called the Sanctionists. These believed that Torm's dogma and mandate should not only be forcefully implemented and imposed but also added a 'moral' dimension where they subjected the 'decadent and degenerate' to 'Torm's Justice.' Very briefly put, they went Puritan on the asses of the local populace, closed brothels, outlawed gambling and so forth. You can imagine how much Sharessim, Tymorans and a bunch of others didn't love that! (I should add, the idea was by no means entirely my own but was taken from a brief bit about some Tormites acting kind of like this during the Time of Troubles.)
In a similar vein, I had the Church of Tempus split into two major factions that were outright at war with each other, a Northern and more direct and 'barbaric' one against a Southern more 'civilised' one. Part of the split was as simple as this -- one side called the God Tempus, the other Tempos, and just pronouncing it 'wrong' was often enough to set off fights!
I also had two Sharessim factions, one completely wild and bent on orgies, the other marginally more 'responsible', both uniting against the Sanctionists as their common enemy except for the ones who didn't and tried to use the Tormites against their 'internal enemies'... fun times!
(For some reason, all my players ended up hating the Sanctionists passionately. That just made it all the more fun when they ended up needing them against Banite invaders...)
In short, yes, the FR pantheons suck arse as they stand but they really don't require that much to fix them.
~tOH.
Quote from: The Old Hack;313022I also had two Sharessim factions, one completely wild and bent on orgies, the other marginally more 'responsible', both uniting against the Sanctionists as their common enemy except for the ones who didn't and tried to use the Tormites against their 'internal enemies'... fun times!
(For some reason, all my players ended up hating the Sanctionists passionately. That just made it all the more fun when they ended up needing them against Banite invaders...)
I think I might have spotted the reasoning behind their affiliations.
As for how things are interpreted. Leave it to each player to interpret things how they want. So long as it doesn't cause your character or the story you're trying to tell direct harm it really doesn't matter how people choose to roleplay what transpired. I find that players policing each others roleplay creates something of a poor atmosphere.
If you don't like the way someone else is worshiping your god, pick up the staff and wizard-hat.
That's what holy wars are for!
Quote from: HungeringShadows;313041So long as it doesn't cause your character or the story you're trying to tell direct harm it really doesn't matter how people choose to roleplay what transpired.
Humph! When my vile heterodox Helmite is attempting to cleave the skull of an upstanding and righteous Ordersman, she is doing the best she can to cause him direct harm, you RP cop!
>.>
QuoteI find that players policing each others roleplay creates something of a poor atmosphere.
More seriously: I agree 100% with this. I find it immensely irritating to get Tells declaring that I am 'roleplaying my character wrong'. If you really do have a problem with someone's roleplaying it may be a better idea to send a
polite private message on the forums or IRC asking to discuss it, or alternately to ask a DM to adjudicate it.
~tOH.
H
Quote from: The Old Hack;313046More seriously: I agree 100% with this. I find it immensely irritating to get Tells declaring that I am 'roleplaying my character wrong'. If you really do have a problem with someone's roleplaying it may be a better idea to send a polite private message on the forums or IRC asking to discuss it, or alternately to ask a DM to adjudicate it.
~tOH.
Do people actually do that?
I quite like the FR gods. Of course on EFU most people are layswords of their faith so in that light I can also see how they are not as fitting.
Quote from: The Old Hack;313022[Snip.]
I agree with everything you said. Forgotten Realms gods can be made interesting very easily. Though if you go in with the expectation that characters should adhere exactly to a singular interpretation the Dogma from the source books, whether as a cleric or layman, I think you're severely limiting story potential.