EFUPW Forums

I've written and rewritten this like 15 times like all good rage posts, but I can't help but feel it comes back to one singular point-

If levels don't matter, why is the death penalty on EFU so crippling?

There's no "Added risk of death" by having the penalty being so crippling, only an added risk of having to quest more.

I've seen PCs die, respawn, die, respawn, die, respawn 16 times in one DM event. I've seen PCs die, respawn, die, respawn, die, respawn countless times on quests.

Everyone and their mother can agree EFU hit's its prime when you're in the mid level quest range. Level 7 or 8 makes EFU infinitely better because you can quest -when you want to- rather than "Because you have to".

Long have I played EFU and this has lead me to this singular conclusion.

I fucking hate that questing is "required" for EFU.

And I feel disgusted to admit my last PC was a blatant attempt at self serving, selfish, blatantly cowardly Rp and cowardly actions to survive to level up. And then I died, to a random and mundane Vein Vine, and lost 10,000 XP.

If I wanted to run my fingers raw against faceless NPCs for grinding xp and supplies I'd play WoW.

So, I'd just like to thank the PCs and DMs for their fun over all this time but I've just reached my limit.

You can't enter conflict into EFU and expect to win unless you spend hours, days weeks, and longer questing.

Frankly that pisses me off to no end and I can't do it anymore.

I have enough faith in our EFU playerbase that if we were allowed to start at a decent level where mechanical scrubs such as I could at least feel we put up an inkling of a fight, we could handle it.

That if there was a decent way to make and get supplies, level the playingfield of XP, and more on par with the people who enjoy questing then deciding they want to get into conflict, EFU would be a greatly better place.

The RP during quests is fun but it is not the same as the RP when you're involved with a DM. The RP during questing is fun but it is not the same as the RP when you're involved in scheming, hesiting, planning, working towards a goal.

"Oh man that was tough", "Damn I need more healing", "Guys let's fight those gnolls", "Hey man lemme rest and we can crush those trolls".

I can't agree with this more.  . . then again I'm a mechanically retarded miscreant who makes nothing but cookie cutter PCs amirite.

Levels 100% matter. Especially if you rely on spells. For others levels don't matter -as much- as your potion cache.

Quote from: Random_White_Guy;319671You can't enter conflict into EFU and expect to win unless you spend hours, days weeks, and longer questing.

This right here says more than you think.  The only reason you need retarded levels and supplies to deal with conflict is because for some reason conflict always seems to equal PvP.  Proper PvP has it's place.  But sadly, it seems like PvP usually means, "beat the living hell out of people and take their crap".  Anything less, or rather, any other kind of conflict is looked upon rather unfavorably.

Yes, I've heard the "oh no, it's not that way" line more times than I ever want to hear again.  Frankly, actions speak much louder than any lines typed.  Say what you will, it is that way generally speaking.

yeah i get pissed when i die too then i have  abreak and realise its a game

As fun as the questing is in EFU and as well made as they are... I gotta give RWG this. Quests serve no purpose but to prepare people for PVP and conflict, and at low levels they absolutely feel like a menial task rather than fun. Granted, we the veterans have the experience and perhaps jaded attitudes towards them, I'm sure the new players get a lot of enjoyment out of them.

I dunno if this is easily solved, but as a veteran who's ran these quests and died, then had to re-do them again so I'd feel comfortable... it's not that fun.

Unfortunately, levels do matter. Enough that if you work hard to reach almost 9 or something like it and then die to a stupid situation you can't help, it makes you want to ragequit. Yesterday I had an overall bad day with every single thing I tried going wrong, then at the end I went on a DM event, at the end of which I died due to mechanical reasons -- my character was stunned, targeted by an NPC slowly hacking her to bits, and nobody could do anything to save me because we had a huge gelatinous cube on top of us that made it impossible to either target me for healing or the NPC to get its aggro.

Afterwards, all my gold was spent on a candle, I lost XP from almost 9 to bottom of 8, and my mood was ruined. I almost ragequit and didn't only because 1) I barely sat on it and 2) friends talked me out of it. Now I've put my character on break and am doing something else till I feel less thoroughly irritated.

Short end: I sympathise with RwG. I am in no way making any demands but I would darn well not object to his comments being taken under due consideration. Sigh.

~tOH.

Betrayals, bad pvp, shitty situations where my PC's been on the run- I've taken all that in stride. The closest I've come to ragequitting has been that moment where you gain that mythical level 9/10 for a few precious minutes/hours and then die to some random, unseen enemy out in the middle of nowhere. And usually I've got people with me, and the enemy is killed and my body is recovered at once, and the only thing I lose is time- time that makes you wonder, God, do I really want to do that again?

Minimizing xp loss will save you some time. That's it, that's not really the issue here. Questing is a means to an end for the people who have been here long enough to have run through most of what's available.

You don't need levels to make conflict. You just need levels- and potions, which comes along the way- if you want to win it. And how is 'winning a conflict' usually defined in efu? Like Wind said, the easiest and least imaginative way is silence the opposition for good. But there are other ways to come out on top than pvp. Get into politics, hurt them through their wallet, throw roadblocks in the way of their goals, buy off their friends...or maybe just make friends who can do the fighting for you!

I like questing, I like pvp, but they can be a slog to prepare for, especially if you're hopping on that train. You know for a fact that this doesn't work for you- so don't do it. I know for a fact that you've found more creative alternatives in the past.

PVP generally breaks down to who has the most supplies to blow on their enemy.  I generally lose because since I have a full time job, I don't have the time to grind, filling my bags with supplies along the way.

It becomes hard to do quests without grinding buddies because most of the higher level quests are done by small groups of friends/faction members who run them over and over and over again together.  I can do sendings all day, if everyone else is already in their questing groups, it hardly matters.

Because I can't grind quests, I'll lose most PVP and even most non PVP faction conflict eventually boils into PVP when people try to kill each other as they plot over the latest Great McGuffin Hunt, Lost Widget of Magic, election etc.  I find the people saying "not all conflict is PVP" are simply not looking at it realistically.  Because eventually, if you succeed, the other side is going to just try to kill you.

It is frustrating.  Unlike RWG, I still actually enjoy doing quests but it is hard to get "pub" groups to do anything besides the standard, easy ones like gnolls/well/muskroots tower.  No one wants to go and do the harder quests without their questing buddies and really, considering the steep penalty for failure, why would they?

I once went from 8th level to 5th in a weekend and was tempted to drop my character because of it. I understand your frustration completely, and I vastly prefer meaningful interactions with players and DMs to questing - though I certainly don't mind the odd gnoll-smashing and well-cleaning. I spent the next week doing Poisoned Well (because its quick, kinda fun, and yields decent experience) like a mad-man. Playing an unfortunately multiclassed wizard who, if he loses 4th level spells has extremely difficulty getting them back, has unfortunately my changed my behavior in playing him for the worse. Which often forces me to decide between, "Spiced quest. Or being able to do wizardy things like scrying and curse-breaking?"

I think we can all agree that 7-8 is the "sweet-spot" on EFU, with 9+ being more or less fluff for major movers and shakers. The inherit problem with removing the extreme death penalties is you'll start to see power-bloat, and eventually 11-12 will become the new 7-8 and so on. Plus... well, I've never had my heart pounding over being chased by a troll on any other NWN server.

This is just a suggestion, but perhaps roleplaying experience ticks could be awarded up through 7th rather than 5th? That way bouncing back after death doesn't feel as much of a chore to those who are disinterested in non-stop questing and more interested in social interaction?

Rewrote my post about twenty times and could not have said it better Weaverific. Mechanical power and the effects it has on PvP matter. Not really sure if any server changes can be made in regards to this (or even should be), but as a player base I think we do need to accept this reality. When you make a character that is less mechanically powerful than a normal EfU build (not a power build, but not a weak build either), you are at an disadvantage.

I'd approve of a suggestion for level 7 to be the new level 6, so to speak.

I love quests. It is a great chance for rp and to really express your character. Their interaction with other people, how they react to threats and view the world, their method of thought process; how they handle stress, specific situations or arguments. Just levels do matter. Don't expect to go beyond level 5/6, for those are the 'high levels' and only temporary, and if you do reach there be humble about it. That's how I work.

I've waffled back and forth on this a lot. I played another PW not too long ago where there was a fixed level, no advancement in the form of XP at all. I really enjoyed not worrying about my level, it let me focus on bigger and better things.

Agree with everything you said RWG. It just gets tiring having to continually regain levels just to feel complete again. I don't feel like it adds much. How many of us can attest to suddenly losing 4-5 levels on some intense,  brutal DM event where everyone respawned multiple times....only to get FD'ed in PVP the next day because you just HAPPEND to get into that deadly PVP the day after, and lost only because you just HAPPENED to be level 4-5 at the time of that pvp instead of the 8-9 you have been for weeks/months?

Not sure what the best solution would be, but I get burned out on the level loss/re-leveling treadmill very quickly. Partially lead to the retirement of my last 2 PC's.

Admittedly, when I heard of Border Kingdoms and how they had a system where everybody started (and stayed) at a certain level I was greatly intrigued.

On the other hand, PCs having to climb the level ladder is the sort of "gamification" that adds a sense of agency for self-improvement. Dorn the Dwarf isn't grinding orcs, earning XP, and gaining a level. Dorn the Dwarf has become a blooded and expert slayer of orcs, his days of cutting them down and facing their axes sharpening his combat senses again the vile spawn of Gruumsh.

In conclusion, maybe there are better systems out there, but it sure ain't easy finding them.

Not worrying about having to spend next week redoing all the same quests you did this week and the week before that would be pretty sweet.

Perhaps then there would even be time to explore other areas of Ymph and do other quests for once. Mostly I just see the same few quests being done over and over again because they're easy/most rewarding.

I don't really know what to say, I'm not all that smooth, but I do agree with what you guys say on this.

Frankly, if it wasn't exp or levels, it'd be grinding for something else, in my opinion that is.

Skills, or abilities of some sort. Somekind system that demanded to do something, just like quests. Or gear and items. Supplies.

Other problem is, what do we do with death. Would we enforce permadeath on every death to make it seem more scary and meaningful, even if it's mainly OOC pain and fear that it inflicts right now - which I myself prefer btw. It's game, and I want there to be that annoyance and possibility of a loss. To me it's big part of roleplaying. Death is meaningful, even if it has to be the fear of losing exp. It's frustrating at times, but without that possibility games would be very dull. Failing must be a possibility.

Another thing is, what would you people do without quests in that sense or sense of chasing something? I am being fully honest. Every single one of you, one of us, tends to just linger around or not even log in if they are not questing and can't figure something interesting to do outside it - and this happens a lot unless DM runs something. Do you have a solution to this, if exp and levels were stripped and even bigger window of free and innovative time is left on your table? It is not being used very well this far as it is.

Perfection is something that does not exist. Grinding and repeating will always exist in some form.

Border Kingdoms had an intriguing alternate form of advancement in the whole "renown" thing. You'd have NPCs talking about you eventually, you'd get faction benefits, maybe loot depending on how well known you are, etc. It was a nice, more satisfying form of character development than arbitrary levels.

My two cents, anyway.

I think we can all say that running a quest from time to time is fun, what most (not everyone) dislikes is the need to 'grind' quest to get levels, potions, loot etc.

Yes, there are some that RP very well during a quest, but I would be willing to bet most just run through the quest crush and grab, then move on to the next.

I know I'm mechanically challenged in Nwn.  I just don't have the time, nor do I wish to make the time to change that fact.  What this meant to me was that most of what my character did was going to be behind the scenes.  Therefore sadly over looked by most players and DM's.  I'm not complaining, it's easier to gather information, or set someone up when they know the player is not a threat.  I could happily go about my business and not worry of what most players do, DM loot or player recognition. After 5 years of this it does start to get rather old though.

Basically, what I'm saying is that levels do matter... no matter if you are the one pulling the strings, or doing the fighting, eventually you are going to have to fight someone.  Being a level 6 with min supplies VS. a level 9 that has quest trained for weeks, is not a fun prospect.

It is sad that they do matter to the extent they do presently. I've felt pressured on my last few  characters to avoid any conflict until hitting 7/8, though admittedly  one was a H'balan cultist so I am sure most would agree it's for the  best to wait regardless of the validity of levels.

Lately I've been trying to move away from doing the mundane quests. It's  been weeks, maybe months since I've done the granary or well quest, or  really any combat quest aside from Old Wallace's inside Mistlocke. I do  gathering quests, explore the isle and do random areas with a buddy (far more exciting and rewarding than any quest in Mistlocke).  When I do quest, I take just a few people with me and find the hardest  quest we could conceivably do. It keeps things more exciting and more of  an adventure.

Supplies matter, but not as much as most think. What more need to do is  rely less on their 100+ serious healing and more on having a plan that  doesn't involve "CRUSH!" and more on exploiting some weakness the enemy  has with either a spell, ability or item. Why are wizards so strong and  barely need any supplies? Because they plan their fights out.

Rwg, you said win, you should have said have fun, with us. So you should come back and rock out! XD

Firstly just wanna say appreciate the constructiveness haha, this was definitely one of them rage posts.

EFU:M is hands down the easiest chapter, SC. And rightly so. There's a lot of ways and means to influence EFU as a whole but I've just found myself in a relentless, and albeit impatient cycle. You of all folks has been the most supportive and for that I am thankful! Time and again do I let you down :(

As to your points Paha I'm not saying quests should be done away with. I'm not even saying they should be changed. Hell I'm not even saying anything should be changed. It was most definitely a ragepost but at the same time it's just something I've encountered time and again. There's this huge feeling on EFU that if you're not questing you get left behind, and it shows itself in full when it comes to conflict. Perhaps that's how it should be, perhaps it involves more people to spread it out but it always feels off to hire on the high levels to fight for you.

As you said, CR questing is a great opportunity to flex characters in action. Especially if it's for a short while and just hopping on now and then to have yourself a little adventure. The problem is there's a line where it stops being fun and starts being necessity.  As Vlaid said- If you get into conflict with someone, then die, it feels like a huge game of catch up if you want to avoid getting your face stomped in.

Again, apologies for the big rage post.

Quote from: Paha;319711Frankly, if it wasn't exp or levels, it'd be grinding for something else, in my opinion that is.

Skills, or abilities of some sort. Somekind system that demanded to do something, just like quests. Or gear and items. Supplies.

Other problem is, what do we do with death. Would we enforce permadeath on every death to make it seem more scary and meaningful, even if it's mainly OOC pain and fear that it inflicts right now - which I myself prefer btw. It's game, and I want there to be that annoyance and possibility of a loss. To me it's big part of roleplaying. Death is meaningful, even if it has to be the fear of losing exp. It's frustrating at times, but without that possibility games would be very dull. Failing must be a possibility.

Another thing is, what would you people do without quests in that sense or sense of chasing something? I am being fully honest. Every single one of you, one of us, tends to just linger around or not even log in if they are not questing and can't figure something interesting to do outside it - and this happens a lot unless DM runs something. Do you have a solution to this, if exp and levels were stripped and even bigger window of free and innovative time is left on your table? It is not being used very well this far as it is.

Perfection is something that does not exist. Grinding and repeating will always exist in some form.

It could be possible that you have the situation backwards. The drive to attain levels and loot because they matter so much is what leads to this wasteful use of PC energy rather than players inherently having little of interest to say, plot, or do. It could be that putting so much emphasis on the XP/consumable treadmill has lead to the culture that might be boring to many players and DM's.

Basically what it boils down to nowadays is that nobody wants to be on  the low end of the perceived curve of power. Most people I think just  want to get to 7-8, and enough supplies to defend themselves so they  aren't fodder for any ol' crusher with a few basic buffs. If they feel  they need to spend a lot of time questing, gathering supplies and so on  just to hang in the conflict/plot....that time spent do so detracts a  lot of attention away from their actual plots and goals.

As for the death system. I've always liked the idea of an XP debt system(without level loss), possibly with a temporary level drain-like effect until server reset to make death scary, but temporary, but not altogether REQUIRING you to spam quests. May not be the best alternative, but it's an idea.

I remember the days of old in EFU when the level range and power curve was far more depressed, more in the 6-7 at the top end (with occasional rare 9's). Getting and keeping level 6 was enough to make you a real boy. You rarely got this full repertoire of supplies you see today on most PC's.

It may be nostalgia, but it feels like questing/loot was less of a big deal back then (or I just sucked more and never got it). If my memory isn't fuzzy with rose colored glasses, now maybe that's because the perceived attainable height of levels, consumables and loot was much lower.

The farther up/away you put the perceived highest level of power(be it in levels or need for supplies), the more people will feel the need/requirement to chase even higher so they aren't meat for the top end. Maybe all that's needed is to scale things back a bit so getting higher than x is significantly harder, but getting to x is significantly easier.

TL;DR: As the perceived level attainable has risen, so too has the amount of time it takes to get that level and get supplies to be able to defend yourself. Possible measures need to be taken to lower the gap between what is easily achievable, and what is achievable with a large amount of time invested into questing and supplying yourself.

I realize that what I'm about to say is probably going to come off extremely bitchy and ungrateful in light of what I have achieved with Rani.  I've had other PCs that have had some pretty neat experience as well.

So I want it to be made understood upfront that this is an OOC feeling that's been brewing off and on for the entire almost 5 years I've been here.

If a large-ish number of people consistently see the same issues over and over again, how is it that they are the one's being told they're wrong, or not perceiving things right?  If a number of people are seeing the same problem, there's quite obviously a problem that needs to be looked at.

As a DM, you can be running the niftiest, coolest, most mind-blowing plot the server has ever seen ... but if there's only an elite few that even get wind of it, let alone see it ... then there's going to be a perception by a large number that there's something way off kilter.

Same with the continuous revival of PvP and grind issues. A lot of the issues with PvP is a perception matter, of that I'm sure.  It's a vicious cycle.  PvP generally requires a DM, therefore the *smash* crowd inherently will get the DM's attention.  Because they're a "loud" PC that now has a DM attention, well ... you can see where this is going.  

It can tire people to hear "conflict=pvp" and rage that it's wrong and we're horrible and jaded for thinking that way.  It's just as tiring to see that very thing played out over and over again, and yet get told you're wrong.  If it wasn't happening, the perception wouldn't be there.

If so many people have the wrong "perception" and all we got continually told is that we're wrong and ungrateful bitches that wear out the DMs, that's not going to solve the problem.  All that's going to do is widen the gap that shrinks and grows within our community.  We're not trying to wear out the DMs.  We're trying to tell you issues that we see.

There's always going to be division within any given community.  Most times in a situation like this, all we have to go on is perception.  So if there's a perception that you have to grind, PvP, be an "in your face" player to do anything .... well, then there's an adjustment that needs to be made all around.  

We're likely always going to be a divided playerbase.  We have some that are power-gamerish, some that are WoWi-ish, some that are pure story driven, and varying levels in between.  That alone is going to cause some very major confliction OOCly about what happens or what should happen.

If there's so many that are so inherently wrong about what EFU is about, maybe there needs to be more illumination into what it is about, instead of a jaded "you're wrong" thrown at them.

QuoteSame with the continuous revival of PvP and grind issues. A lot of the  issues with PvP is a perception matter, of that I'm sure.  It's a  vicious cycle.  PvP generally requires a DM, therefore the *smash* crowd  inherently will get the DM's attention.  Because they're a "loud" PC  that now has a DM attention, well ... you can see where this is going.

Though the rewards of winning PvP are far more tangible, the losers aren't left in the mud. Once a group of dwarves I was with died in PvP, the entire group gone. It was a pretty epic end but we never really stood a chance, being outmatched in nearly all ways. A DM gave us a prelude on our next concept complete with a bit of loot.

More lately, I was in a thieves' guild and we did a lot of mugging. Most of the time it was me and two others, who typically got our asses kicked. More often than not we were fleeing for our lives or being beaten down and robbed ourselves, it was kind of funny. In the end the DM's ran a few little quests/events for us and we started to turn it around before our deaths.

Did the people who beat us on those occasions get quests? Did the guy who eventually killed us get a quest for it, or any XP or loot? No. The important thing is to keep going at it, like we did. But more important is to be considerate OOC. In those instances where we did win PvP, we stuck to our guild's goals of collecting gold, gems and jewelry, and didn't go crazy on looting our victim, rarely taking more than a few potions of healing or strength.

Perhaps the biggest thing in PvP is to fight for what started the PvP, not for what is in the other guy's pack. Though taking a few things is entirely reasonable, taking everything they own is entirely unnecessary in 99% of all conflict. Save the looting for when they're dead and won't need it anymore.

Of course, if you beat someone down and they continue to insult and threaten you, little mercy should be shown.

I skipped reading all the long posts so I might have missed a few suggestions.

I like the constructive criticism provided in the original post, but I am curious about suggestions on how to potentially fix the grind. I did a few minutes of brainstorming and am struggling to find an elegant way of going about it in NWN. If someone can break it down into a palatable form (not wall-of-text) I think that would be awesome. :)

[EDIT] Bullet points, twitter-length suggestions, or tl;dr's would be great

You can permit people to enter the game at level 8- no supplies or shit, these people can be "Mistlocke" or "Ymphian" veterans.

No gear but starter gear, no supplies but starter supplies.

It's a definite dilemma.

If you quest a lot and don't particularly enjoy doing so, that's of course dead space in your playtime.

If you don't have to quest, however, and immediately have power, then there's very little that you lose from dying, even permanently from PVP.

Death's should hurt, but it should definitely be in a balanced fashion.

If you're doing things that aren't quest-related, but are very plot-driven, then there are definitely other rewards available to you (for example, large amounts of XP given for productive characters involving others).

That said, I think your point, while rage-driven, is valid!

I would love to see the server as a place where there are various ways to become stronger as a character, besides solely questing.

It's logical, then, for XP rewards for roleplaying to be massive enough for, say, a grizzled old quartermaster to become tough enough to survive reasonably without doing tons of quests.

Levels do matter, for sure, although I think it's fair to say that most of what can be done at level ten can probably be done at level eight (easy to reach) with some extra backup.

Your point is well taken, though.  I'll redouble efforts to see constructive PCs rewarded even more heavily than they have been so that it's a more viable alternative.

<3 RWG.

As above, but have people app for level instead of giving it to them. They will still have put in work, but it won't be grindwork, it will be story preparation and planned contribution work. Exact level is negotiable but 7 or 8 seems like a reasonable starting point.

Or: increased generosity with XP rewards for people who make large contributions of their own time to the server. By running an organisation, helping plots along, researching, documenting and publishing server history, et cetera.

Discussing the death penalty is a dreadful can of worms to open but I should at least mention it as a source of a great many ragequits and perhaps not the ideal way of regulating server power level. (Oddly, I think that it is not necessarily the penalty itself that is the greatest contributing factor as the fact that you sometimes die in ways that seem arbitrary, stupid or plain unfair. Going toe to toe with a giant and then dying may be awful but at least it was something you chose and it is your own fault. Dying to a game mechanic that is too inflexible, to a hidden monster that paralyses and kills you before you can react or due to lag teleporting you back into a trap you had already escaped is AWFUL and is by far the greatest contributor to stress and ragequits I know.)

~tOH.

Quote from: ShadowCharlatan;319714We have seen a plethora of level 10 PCs lately that just don't meet the kinds of expectations we have for level 10 PCs (epitomising their class, proactively pushing an agenda, being an INSTITUTION / prominent member of the community, leading a faction, etc etc.)

Yet they are heavily supported and looted out

QuoteThe end game content for level 10 PCs doesn't really exist, there is the level cap (you must apply for each level beyond 10) but there is also the fact that by that point you should be the end game content, you should be making and changing things in the world, thinking in a DM-like fashion, leading players to the creation and propagation of the Awesome.

There is plenty of content for high end PCs, but no one wants to go do it because the reward is not worth the risk. This has long been an argument of my own. Reduce the randomness on the high end stuff and re-balance it to be useful (all in suggestion forums already) and I bet you'll see these 10s doing more than crushing in pvp.

Speaking of, you want these level 10s to be the end game content in a world designed around massive conflict and a lot of pvp that stems from it. You want them to lead others, define classes, etc, but it is not very supported outside of direct DM involvement and the high level PCs will quickly find themselves drained without a means to keep supplied, etc. Furthermore, you want us to portray our characters as end game content when we're stuck in a world with things that twenty level 10 characters couldn't scratch. It's impossible and also quite foolish to pretend we are the end game content when surrounded by things far more deadly, powerful, potent, etc.

To survive such a world and even slightly portray what you desire, we quite simply do -require- the things that are said not to matter. How many haste and displacement I have, alongside my resilience / levels, is quite simply what it does boil down to when we're trying to do exactly what you request, and portray ourselves as pillars of the in game community. While there are exceptions to that as mentioned, in general it is quite true.

QuoteI really resent it when people make these bald assertions about this stuff, particularly when their PCs are frequently just spectators of all such activity that occurs, just taking one particular side, going with the tide, or clinging to some philosophy without the full picture or a greater experience of things.

Some of you really have to have more faith and trust in the work of your fellow players and DMs, and the fact that this is not an arena server. Some players are much better than others at PvP, some players have more time than others, and that's just something you have to deal with. Make your character and their goals with this in mind. It doesn't mean you can't still do and achieve things, but it does mean you have to be more creative and conscious of your limitations.

All quite true, but there is a simple truth that PvP will find -most- characters that do create interesting conflict and stories that impact the player base.  In my opinion the only thing worse than someone that believes dominating PVP will bring them real success is the raw ignorance and hatred that stems from successful pvp anymore. It used to be something that was rewarded, and rewarded well at that. These days you see more pvp than before and most of it lacks as much flavor or story, something I believe comes from the lack of rewards for quality pvp that has come from story or conflict.

Just because someone spent a little time learning a rather simple system of mechanics does not mean they should be punished for it, or have their story / RP overlooked because they have success in this area as well.

I can think of a lot more fun things to do for a DM rather than having to read dozens of applications just so someone can level to level 7, 8 or 9, The Old Hack.

For example using the click kill button. That's infinitely more entertaining and probably a better use of time.

Quote from: Sternhund;319747I skipped reading all the long posts so I might have missed a few suggestions.

I like the constructive criticism provided in the original post, but I am curious about suggestions on how to potentially fix the grind. I did a few minutes of brainstorming and am struggling to find an elegant way of going about it in NWN. If someone can break it down into a palatable form (not wall-of-text) I think that would be awesome. :)

[EDIT] Bullet points, twitter-length suggestions, or tl;dr's would be great

To stop the quest grind:
No xp/level loss... How about a constitution point loss instead? Where you lose no levels. You can still play at your highest attained level ability. Diamonds, candles and whatnot are used to gain the lost con points back. this would also eliminate the died 99 times PC's as eventually your PC would have a 3 or less con and not be able to be resurrected from the Fugue at all. It would also stop the "Who cares that I died, I have the baddest 4th level PC around with tons of DM loot!" attitude.

Oh! Speaking of DM loot. Back when I started (several years ago), DM loot was few and far between and not handed out like candy every time a DM is involved in something. Seeing obits where PC's have a half-dozen DM loot items is kinda frustrating to those players that are happy to get one item in a PC's life. Not saying some PC's that have been around for a year of RL playing time shouldn't have them, but those that are around a month and have a half dozen or more kinda sways the entire PvP thing way out of balance. And kinda proves the DM attention (i.e.; PvP) = DM loot mentality. Just because you have a DM's attention shouldn't mean you get DM loot. IMO, DM loot should be earned only on very special, very rare occasions.

Rather than adressing the "grind" as has always been done and seems ineffective in meeting peoples desires, I believe a change to the death system would make more sense, even if only a temporary trial.  The issue so far as I can see isn't that people totally hate questing, its that they hate the feeling of hitting the same lower level, less interesting quests over and over each time they die to something.  This is understandable, I mean why would your former yotal badass get run through by an orc and decide the only way to gain magical powers back is by constantly spamming goblins to death in a rocky style training montage.  There is in my opinion a simple solution.

Either:

A) Cut exp loss to 1/5 OR make it so you lose gold/supplies instead as they are smashed/stolen?

B) Make it so dying results in increased withering as you soul weakens from near death experience allowing the curse to grow.

C) My personal favourite, make it so fuguing and being wounded makes you, you know, wounded.  Set certain considerable penalties on pc's from when they respawn due to their grievous wounds, something that will make them weaker in combat for the time it takes to recover.  This discourages quest spamming to get back to optimal performance and encourages RP'ing injury, giving you time to do other stuff, and for those who want to go and "grind" quests, make it so these wounds can be healed at a much faster rate from an exp or gold cost.

Late Border Kingdoms had a system of AC and AB penalties upon death. These would stack with every death. Something to consider, maybe. Maybe drop spellcaster spell level, as well? That might be a little more debilitating, though.

These would of course be temporary, though I'm uncertain as to how that should be handled. Just tossing ideas out.

I dislike the idea of mechanical crunching on death because in a lot of ways it's just as debilitating if not moreso. Yes the XP hit sucks, a lot, but at least you can still get involved in other aspects of EFU without too much misery. Exploring, alchemy, minor quests, mist's end fights, etc.

That's less crippling in a lot of ways than entire reset, or x amount of time with butchered stats. I could just as easily forsee an endless and terrible cycle of PvP/Quest deaths for "Wounded" PCs.

This has been a consistent problem since I started playing EfU nearly seven years ago. I've always had the same prescription: that which gets rewarded gets done.

If you want to see a server where amazing role play is more common than another boring character death, then make amazing role play more profitable than PvP. EfU is and always has been one of the very few servers which combines hardcore permadeath with more or less free reign to PvP. This creates a powerful incentive to kill other characters. Player characters have always dropped the best loot. Acknowledging that, EfU has also had the most dramatic character interaction for the obvious reason that death is forever. It's a double edged sword, and EfU leans toward the sharpest edge.

There is a balance between the twin extremes of a pure hardcore PvP server and a pure role-play server which I think EfU has yet to achieve. Levels do matter, but rightly so in my opinion. There's just still a bit more balancing that needs to be done. I could be totally wrong about this, but it's always felt like, when compared to PvP, good role play has never mattered much to the DMs outside of screenshot threads. My best characters on EfU never lasted as long as my worst characters on other servers (back when there were other servers).

We've been playing this game together for ten years now. I don't care who "wins." I'd just like to run a character or two who matters without having to be some PvP demigod. The closest I ever came to that was Jharla Decker, and it was an enjoyable enough experience that I've spent most of the time since chasing after that goal. What keeps me playing EfU is that I'm still holding out hope for that perfect moment when a character of mine actually wins by outsmarting, outmaneuvering, or otherwise achieving their goals through some means other than being a PvP crushbot.

It seems to me that of all things, a role-play server should be able to offer that. EfU does not, but out of any other place I've ever found online, it comes the closest. At the very least, here if I get it I will feel like I earned it.

^
I think that's a very good post. It's a double-edged sword. But I think most of stick around (or drop by once a year ;) ) because we like that edge. There's other servers around to play on but none where you combine RP with (relatively) extreme danger.

You can try those other servers to see how it's different. I promise you'll come back yearning for the danger. I sometimes play elsewhere just to remind myself how precious this server is.

It's like when you hang out with an ugly girl for a bit just to remind yourself how much better your pretty girlfriend is.

I believe SC summarizes a lot of what I believe. I take issue with a lot of what's been said in this thread, but I would invite players with concern to approach me on an individual basis so I can help them figure out a playstyle and approach that would lead them to enjoy the server according to their particular tastes.

I also welcome specific suggestions for how we can improve things, there is too much disagreement amongst the contributors in this thread to be able to effectively address these topics.

Quote from: HowlandI believe SC summarizes a lot of what I believe. I take issue with a lot of what's been said in this thread, but I would invite players with concern to approach me on an individual basis so I can help them figure out a playstyle and approach that would lead them to enjoy the server according to their particular tastes.

I also welcome specific suggestions for how we can improve things, there is too much disagreement amongst the contributors in this thread to be able to effectively address these topics.

Well since the first post kinda blew up out of control and stirred a lot of OOC conflict debates in IRC and in the thread, I thought i'd make another one with some more constructive attempts as I kinda started this mess. It was made as a ragepost in a time of frustration, since passed, so I thought I'd try to do a more constructive attempt.

I don't hate questing, I don't think the XP on EFU is out of whack. I don't think the supplies need retooling. I don't think change is all that needed. Honestly my biggest concern is death isn't death so much as getting your ticket punched to need to quest more.

I see questing as a great part of EFU but at the same time it grows to be a distraction. I like the progressive leveling system but not the Degressive[/b] leveling system that at times comes from it.

If you're in the throes of conflict with an established PC in pursuit of another faction or have another faction pursuing you, a mistake happens and you die, you're delegated from that situation to run Goblins in the Granary.

Conflict and high end dangerous actions require levels and XP and if you are in a situation you can't control (Lag deaths, bugs, unfortunate events, unwise choices on quests, etc): You are given a severe handicap.

That being said I guess the most basic of things I can suggest is:

Lose the candle system.

The fact you need 1500 gold and a friend to return and lose less XP? Counter productive.

Make the Candles to return from DM chosen deaths or PvP.

Raise the current Respawn XP to the Candle XP.

I don't know if it's a perfect solution but it seems like a step in the somewhat right direction without massive overhaul.

I agree with BOM and the last posts...
RP, involvement and plotting should bring more rewards than it does currently. Maybe it should bring even more than quests would be able to.

I am not sure, but maybe a couple of things could be done to achieve this:

• mark exiled characters with some sort of constand minor reward. The reason for it is that exiled characters should be the ones involved into bringing meaningful conflicts for the server (exile should then start to be used as a really important tool, not just to ban anything that bothers your sight of view). Exiled characters have currently big troubles to keep up growing as the town is not only the best source of gold, (poisoned) water and friends: it's the best source of xp as well;
  
  
• arrange more explicit long term plots to be achieved, with the same ammount of effort that is currently being given to preludes. It might sound a bit funny, but I would suggest even a table with minor goals, for marking whatever was acomplished or not. I don't have issues about setting up goals and trying to pursue them myself. Although, I won't deny it is a hard task and that I would love to have something on the system of the community that would make it easier. There are many plots around, I know. But many of them could receive a spot light and get some of us directed with more emphasys to them;
  
  
• arrange more (yes, we got many already) kinds of reward, like fame. I love the ambient changes accordingly to the achievements of PCs. It's nice to see the environment changing due to our actions. So more NPCs commenting about PCs and markings around the server that would give reminders of whatever success or failure someone was able to reach...
  
  
• I don't know, but it would be nice if we got XP rewards for successful alchemical and herbalistic tries, we get xp for less dangerous things, the reward here could not only be to survive and get the item we were crafting;
  
  
• it would be interesting if we had more archeologists, carpenters, farmers and builders around the server, with some kind of system that would reward this kind of activity. It is funny for me to watch a bunch of mages living around the rubles of the Conclave for so long and to watch Mistlocke with the two destroyed houses without making anything about it.
  

I uderstand that mostly of what I am suggesting is being already done. That's why I am giving emphasys to the word "more", something like BOM posted (I don't know if he was being ironic, although... I am kinda slow for this kind of things). It is about to diminish the importance of quests and give the RP scene a better position to be pursued.

There are many ways to cripple an enemy character, we all know. Although they usually end in PvP. Be it for a narrow minded point of view of the masse, or be it due to the system usually make us more inclined towards it.

It would be nice to know of the tales of PCs that were successful into getting the best piece of the cake that managed to kick the ass of rivals without having to kill them or their best friends. People should start sharing this kind of story. We need inspiration to create things.

Also, it would be nice to brain storm about more mechanical ways of influencing other PCs without having to get dirty into PvP. I like the current implementations of poison and curse. They allow you to do a lot of things without having to bug DMs for it. If we are about to put some effort into something, it would be this.

DMs are not aware of everything we do. Even not even aware if we fill up the Personal Character Notes with as much detail as needed. You guys already mentioned that you are humans and limited, as much as we are. It would be nice to have tools to make it easier to deliver the rewards to the PCs that are activelly trying to get involved into things other than quests, without giving you guys too much trouble.

Questing and PvP will always be apart of EFU and it will likely never change until the DMs actually admit they are issue and sit down and find a solution that's not telling the player base everything is ok and we are imagining all these things together at the same time. That said. A change will be complicated and take serious though.

I think all of us readily admit that EFU has plenty of problems, I genuinely do consider it a successful yet massively flawed project.

Anyway, clearly articulating suggestions as to how to improve things seems the best way to move forward - angsting out about an individual's personal experience in EFU is just hard to meaningfully address.

Maybe it would be an idea to reduce the XP loss and add the sorta AC-Con-Dex debuff you get after after you've been subdued? The debuff could last for a few hours(days?) and represent your armor getting a decent dent or a crushed rib. You could always pay a smith or a cleric to set you right.


I'm not sure if this would make completing a quest more difficult or if people would simply log out and wait for for it to pass. Just a thought!

One simple possible solution:  Reduce the XP cost from death so one unlucky roll on scripted or DM quest means you are not easy prey for ganking the next day.

I don't know how to respond directly to this, but I'm going to try in my own way.

I'm one of those people that enjoys questing, I like the teamwork a good network provides, I like the feeling of trust you gain with others when you "save" them or are "saved" by them. I play efu to play in these types of dungeon delving teams. This means, I can gain exp quickly, I can gain supplies quickly, and I'm usually on the higher if not highest tier when it comes to level and basic essential loot. 9th or 10th level is easy for me if I want it to be.

I don't play efu because I want or enjoy being political. I avoid running factions, I avoid trying to meaningfully change the game-world. I do this because I do not enjoy being in these roles of authority or responsibility. It takes the GAME out of it for me, and I have enough WORK to do elsewhere. Instead, I've always tried to support players that have these goals, to add ambiance and fun to what could otherwise be monotony or empty space.

I end up in two situations.
[INDENT]A.) I'm expected to PvP when the time comes, defend my positions, etc. It's not the only option, but if I'm in a PvP, it was. I get extremely upset when I beat someone else in PvP. I don't like it. (I don't mind losing at all, until I'm full looted and left alive. That just means I can't quest for fun easily). I don't like feeling that my questing made someone's story stop. So I almost always attempt to find other ways to have conflict.

B.) I'm expected to take my supportive ambient pc and start running a faction, or calling shots, or pushing plots, just because I happened to get high level questing for fun, or land on a DM plot. I hate being high level, its just pressure from the DMs to DO MORE, or the awareness that I'm letting someone else down that I can't actually see.

[/INDENT]I'm always told: "Your character should've been lower level."

If a high level PC could only attain that level by doing what you wanted of them, FINE. But it really really sucks to be told you're too strong for what you bring to the server. I'm never going to name names here, because, I just play here to play with you guys. The only reason I log on is to try to get another person to enjoy the game a bit more because of it.

Quote from: "tl;dr"tl;dr: If a high level character should only be gained by players that achieve a certain standard, then the act of pursuing that standard should be what brings you closer to that level. To reward people for questing up till 10th then enforce a different standard on them, or hit them with overwhelming powerful quests when they hit a certain level, is simply not a good position. It will create hard feelings.

Part 2: The game break-down

Escape from the Underdark is a very simple game when broken down into it's elements. At it's core you have two games which are simultaneously being played side by side. These two games are the Adventure game, and the Narrative game.

• QUEST FOR LEVELS AND LOOT, the adventure game
  
• PLOT FOR CONFLICT AND STORY, the narrative game

These are both major parts of EFU. Huge. However, where these games overlap many interesting things happen, some seem counter intuitive, some have surprisingly reenforcing effects. To go into them all would be a small essay, which I can write if I'm pm'd and told to by enough people. For now, I'll just summarize the situation.

The Adventure Game[INDENT]This can be played without a DM, but cannot be played without a team of other players. These players must either be experienced in fighting with each other, or experienced in fighting in general. This provides the means to entertain the vast majority of players. Because this is a challenge, is must have real RISK involved. This risk is Death and it is good.

DM's use and understand this challenge. They send factions to kill high level other players. They embrace characters fighting each other to the death. They use combat as a means for 95% of all efu game-world changes that make any lasting difference. Metaplots are filled with dangerous quests, monsters, traps, and treasure.

A player can play in a small group and get to level 10 without engaging in efu's main story or providing what DMs expect from characters of that stature. They can also BRUTE FORCE their own views of the world onto everyone else.
[/INDENT]The Narrative Game[INDENT]This can be played without a Dm between characters, but only comes to life when the DM is actively playing along. It is the collection of lore, stories, politics, daring gambits, and player goals or actions that exceed the normal limitations. This is the story that the characters are born in, it is the one that lets them grow and exist within the world, rather then trooping over the top of it. It has always been said that these stories are what makes efu worth playing.

For some, this is all they want to play, and the other aspect of the server is a distraction. For others, it is the blend that makes everything awesome and worth doing over again, because it'll be different. And For yet other still it's the theme that lets them play their favorite adventure game over again as a brand new thing.

A character that cannot quest will always get the crap kicked out of them by one who can. Only DM intervention with other aspects of the gameworld can balance this out. But DMs are limited, and not all players really know how to play the Narrative Game in a way that interests the veteran DMs.
[/INDENT]The Escape from the Underdark[INDENT]EFU really rewards those that excel in both parts of the game. It provides ways for a player to do all sorts of amazing things, and to bring others along for the ride. The other tend to be those that play the adventure game well, because that is what the players needs to beat the challenges the DM it going to set before them.

This means that there are many concrete ways for the adventurer to gain in power, and these groups tend to form around one or two players that bring story and essence and goals to that faction. When there are not this lead / follow relationship the factions tend to be weak as they are dragged out in a dozen different ways.

Most conflict is resolved with the only system we have, FIGHT FOR IT. Sometimes politics can be awesome, but it requires that the characters are very long term, can acquire a meaningful place and history within the setting. Long term characters are much less likely to starting offing other long term players as the first objective.

Since efu rewards higher levels, since higher levels means advancement. The systems which reliably provide these things are embraced.
[/INDENT]

Part 3: Solutions?

The very first thing you must do if you want to solve any problem is to determine what the problem is. Every game creates a number of ways to play the game successfully. If you want to see how to play efu, look at the most common behavior seen on efu. Typical Behavior is the net result of the environment in which the behavior can be found.

Therefore, in order to find a solution to any overarching problem which may or may not exist, you must first ask yourself: What could be done that would change the environment of the game in ways which enforce the behavior which you want to see, and hinder the behavior which you don't.

If you've read Part 2, you'll know I've broken EFU down as the simultaneous mixture of two games, Narrative and Adventure. Those who play one side better then the other will find they hit a glass ceiling at some point.
[INDENT]Narrative games require everyone to be playing in the narrative, hopefully with about the same dedication and understanding of the story. They have no real end, but are instead a fluid story that is breath life into the game world. Here your story is successful when you get cut down by your long rival, or beaten to your goal, or achieve your goal however briefly. It is the telling of one character, however, in EFU this requires that the character die within a reasonable time-frame. Otherwise you out live your own narrative, your faction, or your goals. Since these requires and grows involving MANY people, it takes MOST of those people to make the story heartfelt and awesome.
[/INDENT][INDENT]Adventure gamers require a way a WIN. In the old days we had impossible Mort dungeons that could be tried, or we could attempt to escape from the underdark for real. There was a trophy of sorts for beating either, and a pat on the back and a sense of accomplishment for attempting either. Knowing those that the true pinnacle of the adventure. The End.
[/INDENT]The Solution to EFU is to determine first if we have a balance between these two types of games. When one gets stronger then the other, you will find discontentment between those of the various games and positions therein (both DMs and Players can be found within these ranges).

Thanks for your post Ebok, nicely written.

Ebok has touched on something here of great note.

I do both things, story and adventure. Yet when my story is told, I dont want to be lame and simple end myself without meaning. I also love adventure, pvp, fighting for goals that effect the server, yet sometimes your just too powerful, have too many friends or not enough enemies to do those things.

For the Adventurer

Implementing ways to win EFU, like the old way of escaping the UD, or impossible quests like fighting Dragons/ Dungeon crawls notorious for slaughtering groups of high level adventurers, is for me, a good thing.

Something that, if you succeed at you can retire your pc, or even become infamous for merely attempting it. I still think Canzah was insane yet brilliant for attempting to fight a dragon. Its something I imagine he looks back on and enjoys having attempted!



For the Story Teller

Finding ways for characters to reach a successful point in their tale, a reward that is long lasting and can create a feeling of nostalgia. It can be as simple as a small character reference on the server. An npc months down the line speaking your characters name can cause you to instantly relive some of the most epic moments.

Finding remnants of your character can also help! I have had characters ig go around asking about one of my most successful pc's on the server. I later discovered why and that instantly inspired me to create a better story, to involve more people and succeed where I believe my character failed.


In the end, I think it boils down to this. We all want to achieve something, I always aim to effect the server to change ic aspects in some way. Knowing that those attempts are recognized and remembered are what make EFU enjoyable for me.

Beggar says: [Insert Ebok Posts here]

And Howland - the flaws you mention are not major, and vastly outweighed by the story and lore of the server. Nice job to you and all the DMs - especially in the new player intro / quest arc. It's short, integrates a lot of vital lore, and is new guy friendly - you hit the trifecta of game design IMO in that part.

Suggestion - Possibly turn this to some of the quests, integrating a more solid story or lore arc through sequential quests. I'm not talking about "you must finish quest X to get to Y", Just merely hints of lore or story in quest X, that may lead you to more story / lore (building on it) in Quest Y. Server does this in a few cases, but it could get tightened up - providing added color while questing.

Quote from: The Beggar;319942Suggestion - Possibly turn this to some of the quests, integrating a more solid story or lore arc through sequential quests. I'm not talking about "you must finish quest X to get to Y", Just merely hints of lore or story in quest X, that may lead you to more story / lore (building on it) in Quest Y. Server does this in a few cases, but it could get tightened up - providing added color while questing.

Or provide clues as random drops or other such things which can be collected, or used in ways that unlock something small or cool lore wise OUTSIDE of a quest.

Maybe you're collecting pieces of a map that randomly drop on a series of quests. Each have something small and interesting on them, and when you've all of them, you are given a riddle. Solve the riddle takes you to a place somewhere on the island. And the map allows access to some site of importance to the stories lore. Doesnt have to be something game changing, but small and quaint. A treasure for real treasure hunters. Or an ancient book for real lore keepers.

Its actually very hard to learn the coolest parts of the lore. And these are another MAJOR reward for PLAYERS who want to discover the truths about the server. It could be interesting if in this way, the more memorable characters can leave an afterimage of their greatest and most secret of successes.

We have a lot of awesome lore hidden around. But its nearly impossible to hit dc 50 >_>;

I think I lucked out in joining EFU, in that, I joined with JUST enough time to experience the dominion and then see it all fall apart.

The struggle to stay alive and keep fighting against insane, impossible odds, was amazing and still has me raving about it.

I never got to experience an escape from the under dark but I wish I did.  Adding something like that to EFU V3 would be great.  How about rumors of the Water of Life or some other sort of cure to the withering on one of the islands... which people go to, but from which, they never return, even if they succeed?  Put a leader board in the character creation area as a testament to those who succeeded.

the escape was good because it was thematically central

what u list isnt

I'm just going to list some suggestions :P I know I haven't been here as long as some to experience everything but I'd say that playing for almost a year has given me time to experience enough to put out some.

1) Give out more xp that you usually do. I was in a party with perhaps a little stronger pcs than me with my spellcaster in a tough quest, on its own I expected to die, or have slim chances of making it through without some heavy loss. However a DM spiced it to be a challenge for those tougher warrior pcs and i got demolished. I knew well that my chances of survival were slim, but for the sake of adventure and going out of my normal quest bashing to get levels so I could do that without big risk I decided to go, because I'd never done it before. My character went from 7th to 4th. and in the end I got some ok loot and 500 xp... i retired that pc shortly after in a ragequit.

2) We all get upset when we lose of course because the loss is immense. That fear rather than making us more careful simply scares us from taking those risks in the first place. If you lessen the loss then people will fear less and take those risks more. I'm not saying lessen it to the point where its no longer something to fear, but rather lessen it up enough so people don't get pissed and quit, or simply decide not to take that risk ever again even when they are higher level because they know well that their loss now is even greater than when they were lower.

3) Up the xp tick reward system. I like this because personally I know that reaching 7th lvl is a milestone... at that point people start thinking about what they can do, rather than what they have to do, more into what they could do. And when they try to do what they fantasize they sometimes face the penalty's of trying and end up beginning 6th or 5th. Yes you should pay the price for your risk, but the fact that they took that risk and only got punished is disheartening, and can be a real bummer because you tried stepping out of that grinding area into some serious rp and ended up getting knocked back down into it. Now you are trying to get back to that good feeling of achievement to take yet another risk, but find it gets harder and more disheartening each failure.

And my opinion on some things:

 Starting higher level I think would rather not solve problems but make more problems.. Why? Because say you make a character who starts at 7th or 8th lvl.. then you die and are now a lot lower level! Why continue that pc when you can make a newer pc that will be stronger and have the capability to get stronger rather than spending all that time getting back  to that point with your now weakened pc.

 "Make a new pc start fresh with a new concept" Well... then you are put exactly back where you are with your current pc: Grinding quests to get stronger, doing the same ol same ol, which gets boring and depressing. i RP with Serena all the time and I love her concept, Personally I don't mind having to grind but it does get a little old after a while. Me; I struggle to reach 7th. Getting above 6th is something i rarely achieve and when I do I die because i took a risk to get more fun and end up rarely reaching that point again. It's fun, but only to a point; then it gets old, and you don't want to give up your current awesome concept that simply failed because they can't do anything overly significant without the power to resist the enemies that come from attempting to reach your goals. There will always be opposition to an idea, and unless your strong enough to stand a chance against your opposition you will never achieve that idea.

This is just how I experience it... im thinking from the complaints i read and share that im not the only one sorry if im wrong

What if the -10 "bleeding out" buffer were increased? Might give more of a margin of error to people doing less than optimized things and increase the value of buddies that watch out for you.

Also, what if experience loss from respawn deaths were not taken from the character, but added to a sort of penalty bank... which you have to pay off before you can actually gain xp again?

You tell the respawn script, "I'm not dead! I'm just knocked out with a serious injury! Let me go back." And you do, but in the meantime, enjoy a recovery penalty of being forced into limping around slowly after getting mangled by wargs, or miscasting spells due to head injuries after a game of ogre badminton, or dropping weapons now and then because a lightning bolt jacked up the nerves in their sword arm, etc. Or a bog standard -2 to everything will do if you like things boring.

Overall experience gain rate should slow down. Lower levels afaik see a faster rate of xp gain, esp. as the danger and xp loss per further death is much higher at higher levels. On the other hand, average level (but not highest level) would increase by a degree, and characters will not be weakened nearly as much through PvE deaths, depending of course on the degree of injury penalties.

Players could level up to the point that they start dying regularly on quests, rather than bouncing down and back up in levels. The price you pay is being stuck with a potentially crippling injury of some sort on the character for some or all of the time, depending on how it is set to wear off.

DMs would also have an additional tool in the option to reward players against their penalty bank, whether it has anything in it or not, allowing immediate or future recovery from PvE death, while not immediately increasing said character's level and power.

Or, they could choose to directly increase the xp and level of a character who constantly dies on quests, allowing him to skirt around quest ineptitude, so to speak, even while he still has a massive penalty bank built up.

Another facet of this is the potential to let the healing skill or quite high level healing spells temporarily relieve the effects of certain injuries in some way. Splints, poultices...

Naturally, PvP would be entirely unaffected.



I dunno, might be entirely ridiculous, too.

That option of recovery penalty is interesting. It halts advancement since you still need to recover that 1/3 xp. Neat idea.

Re- Erraamion
 
2) DM events that are not survivable for anyone but the most optimized and best-supplied PCs.
 
-- This is a chicken and the egg scenario. DM events are hard because players -so- often feel the need to invite their un-faction aligned OR random level 10 hanger on quest buddy to 'make the quest easier/' Very few DM quests in EFU are not tailored to the party that takes them. Nobody will be penalized for taking just their faction on a quest + close allies so long as that number comes to about 4-6.
 
This I am fairly confident about.
 
As for PvP -- my greatest victories have always been on like low level wizards spamming trinkets. The prevalence of flash healing means that a concerted group of four people can take down pretty much any super powered PC in the game. It's just how it is. (Having played more than my fair share of incredibly powerful PCs, I am well aware of their weaknesses.)
 
So many of the problems in this thread are based on the -belief- that high levels are needed, when they are not. That there is a grind, sure, I have felt that. Getting to level 8 is sometimes a chore. However, getting there, and not arriving out of the blue at level 8 is a big part of EFU. The humility of grovelling around in bad gear and sucking while high level people ignore my PCs is how I choose my enemies!

At the risk of repeating myself...

My only real problem with the death system is how that brutal DM quest/random chain of deaths can cause a massive drop in levels/relative power. It can lead to an overpowering demoralization to the players/faction (especially for small ones) whom are involved in conflict with a high probability of leading to PVP....you may have seen this in many players who powerquest to L8-10 and only then begin their conflict schemes and simply try not to quest anymore beyond that point. It can also sometimes lead to EXTREMELY dissatisfying ends to characters when your enemies find out you're no longer a level 10 badass and are only a level 5-7 mediocre guy at the moment.

If not for those sudden and massive drops in relative power from forced respawns (lets be honest nobody wants to sit in fugue for an entire DM quest waiting for the party to drag their corpse back to town....and there is a certain OOC pressure to just respawn and get back in the action) I wouldn't mind the death system that much.

Quote from: Gippy;320393Re- Erraamion
 
2) DM events that are not survivable for anyone but the most optimized and best-supplied PCs.
 
-- This is a chicken and the egg scenario. DM events are hard because players -so- often feel the need to invite their un-faction aligned OR random level 10 hanger on quest buddy to 'make the quest easier/' Very few DM quests in EFU are not tailored to the party that takes them. Nobody will be penalized for taking just their faction on a quest + close allies so long as that number comes to about 4-6.
 
This I am fairly confident about.

This is my exact experience in these things. The smaller quest groups, especially the ones that move with some caution and think about what they are doing, tend to face difficult but not unreasonable opposition. I have on occasion faced enemies my character was powerless to affect even on these but 1) had normally been warned in advance that the quest would be VERY hard and 2) could still help out by healing and assisting the people who could hurt the enemy.

It is the quest groups that consist of huge mobs of random people joining together that face the toughest going. I admit that I by now actively try to avoid those and usually it is not hard to find a good reason to do so. Just the presence of one or two characters that you are ICly opposed to is reason enough for me.

 

QuoteAs for PvP -- my greatest victories have always been on like low level wizards spamming trinkets. The prevalence of flash healing means that a concerted group of four people can take down pretty much any super powered PC in the game. It's just how it is. (Having played more than my fair share of incredibly powerful PCs, I am well aware of their weaknesses.)

The 'concerted' bit is very important here but when it is present even the toughest may find themselves in trouble. A high level character will slaughter opposition if it is running around like headless chickens. That same high level, if spammed with dispels from the characters it is not pursuing and its target being helped with heals, will soon find itself spending a lot of healing and potions just to keep on an even keel during the fight.

The problem gets drastically worse when we are talking about teams of high levels operating as gank squads. In that case, the only thing to do is evade, avoid and plan for vengeance when you have the odds more in your favour.

QuoteSo many of the problems in this thread are based on the -belief- that high levels are needed, when they are not. That there is a grind, sure, I have felt that. Getting to level 8 is sometimes a chore. However, getting there, and not arriving out of the blue at level 8 is a big part of EFU. The humility of grovelling around in bad gear and sucking while high level people ignore my PCs is how I choose my enemies!

There is a lot of truth to the latter part there. High level characters acting like power is all that matters and who trample others just because they can make such lovely targets. On the other hand, I've always found myself respecting high levels who actually pay attention to people around them and who respond fairly according to their IC nature. (It may be a bit optimistic to expect that powerful Banite to act politely and helpfully, for example, though they might respond to judicious flattery and toadying!)

~tOH.

Just wanted to apologize again for the rageyness of the post haha. While I hate the grind and it was an obvious rage post, this was the wrong way to try and start this discussion.

That said some of the suggestions have been really cool! Neat to see how folks think the problem can be solved.

I find it apalling how people believe levels and questing are the only way to make a successful character. To this I will provide a reason against this opinion, and a reason for the opinion.

1. The tale of Ellias Peruglia (monstrous PCs in general): My first monster/pvp survivalist PC, at the level of 3 died against a lv8/9 with DM loot. He was hit by a missile storm, no chance to run or heal. This is a time where levels mattered. Due to not being high enough of a level to run/survive he was dragged to mistlocke square and killed.
That was when levels mattered.

2. The tale of Mylo Aerensen: I made him with 1 singular purpose to prove that levels did not matter and you could handle conflict without them. And what an adventure it twas! Every day I was out telling fortunes, I made hidden sponsorship agreements, was an ass to Caermyn, joined in the hiding of Rani, I even wrote a play (a wretched one however). Thid is an example of what you can do without the quest train, how you can interact with other players and join their story.

Levels only matter depending on what you play. Levels only matter if you are a quester or pvp fanatic. If you hate the grind, make a character who doesnt need the grind.

Slightly off-topic, but...

I achieved level 10 once before and was told by the DMs that the character didn't deserve it's level. I felt pretty disgruntled by it because it was a PC that was in everyone's face off the bat. He took immense risks that could of gotten him perma'd, making long term enemies of people as soon as level four and I had felt like he was my most successful PC to date, as nearly everyone he met had some kind of strong opinion about him.

What it seemed that the staff didn't approve of was that he wasn't the leader type, which I see an overemphasis on. Some characters are made to be henchmen, even if they are reckless, chaotic and bullheaded. To penalize players for appropriately and consistently playing their PC's stats is something that I never understood. It's as if what we're all being pushed to play high charisma characters who spend most of their IG time recruiting and their offline time making colorful posters on the forums.

My concern isn't that the character didn't get recognition by the staff for accomplishments and "shaking things up" but rather that he was penalized for not playing the charismatic brown-nosing lady's man sort, seeming to have forgotten the immense risks he took to get where he was. Perhaps it's my own fault for not ever using the personal character notes forum...

/rant over

QuoteJust wanted to apologize again for the rageyness of the post haha.

Never apologize for something that entertained me. Now, if you will excuse me, I need to get back to ruling my street corner.

Kinslayer i would full heartedly agree with you however people who are not pvp fanatics fall prey to those who are... I was walking around outside of town when i was in a heated argument with another, this guy of mine was a noob and this one much higher level.. after some insults we shared he charged me and beat me senseless... robbed me of what little i had and left... It's not being a pvp fanatic or a quester when simply its nice to be a little higher level so those who love pvp don't just come along and bash you.

QuoteI achieved level 10 once before and was told by the DMs that the character didn't deserve it's level.

It seems that this has been the case for a few players; if this is the case I would suggest that every level beyond 8th should become application based, rather than 10th.

There is a cross over point at which the DMs look on the high level characters to push the story of the sever in meaningful ways - this has always been the case since the early days of EfU.

Howland has made posts explaining that with high levels comes great responsibility. Similar to being Spiderman.

But, different DMs look on this in different ways. If you have achieved a high level and get that sort of conversation, remember that the DM is human, and may not be displaying Tact. Ask them to clarify their goal of the conversation, and turn it into a collaborative effort to improve your very (mechanically) powerful character. It may be that you feel you've done a great job, but have missed some things the DMs have expected.

Also, DMs tend to be reactive in this (ie, oh shit, he's reached level 10 and maxed everything out, best give him "the talk") vs proactive (woah, this character is on a serious level rise - I had best pull him aside now and figure out what is going on, and collaborate on how to really improve the story here).

Quote from: Potionmaster;320560It seems that this has been the case for a few players; if this is the case I would suggest that every level beyond 8th should become application based, rather than 10th.

Applications of all kinds are a very serious Ugh to many players. It is done only when it is absolutely necessary, this is partly because there can be a long delay between the sent and received date. However, for a lot of people its because it's simply not fun. If you want to control levels, maybe this works, or maybe its senseless bureaucracy.

That said making it every level beyond 8th and not just at 8th level would be a screaming pile of redundancy. I couldnt imagine waiting even after your character got approved to be wanded to unlock the level up. And if you died? >_>; Serious questions better be asked.

I don't recall ever telling any player that they didn't deserve up to level 10, but it is true that we reserve the right to restrict level 11+ via application. I think out of respect for players, it's best to have conversations about particular characters and playstyles in private with DMs which I would be happy to do.